EPTDestiny on where he thinks SC2 is heading. - Page 74
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Soma.bokforlag
Sweden448 Posts
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On October 25 2012 13:06 Kozo wrote: How so? Doing high fives and insulting other people makes sense, i agree. Incontrol always do the same built up rant with 99% insult and 1% facts that are actually relevant. He even stated in the ITG thread that he doesnt dislike/hate destiny, yet he goes very personal in his insults. The dick pic speech is just an example, retarded and unprofessional at best, and very personal (funny for someone that he doesnt hate/dislike). Incontrol is a big baby that needs to be in the center of everything. This is sort of funny to me when you consider who is at the other side of the debate... Douches arguing against douches. I can't quite believe anyone of these players are getting as much recognition as they are getting. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
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Disposition1989
Canada270 Posts
On October 25 2012 19:38 kmillz wrote: 100% agree with everything. At least Blizzard didn't fail as hard with SC2 as they did with D3...what a tragedy. What's even more of a tragedy is the makeover that D3 got for the last 5 months. sc2 has gotten nowhere near as much attention, ever. Apparently D3 now compared to D3 at launch is day and night. Every little thing the community wanted, they eventually got. Except Lan but who is surprised there. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On October 25 2012 20:11 Disposition1989 wrote: What's even more of a tragedy is the makeover that D3 got for the last 5 months. sc2 has gotten nowhere near as much attention, ever. Apparently D3 now compared to D3 at launch is day and night. Every little thing the community wanted, they eventually got. Except Lan but who is surprised there. Funny considering me and all of my friends already quit and aren't coming back, which I am sure is the case for a LOT of other people too. Already moved on to better games. Edit: Sad they couldn't have used all of that energy into addressing the serious issues of SC2 mentioned in this thread  | ||
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Quineotio
Australia128 Posts
Brood War - A massively popular game with a big e-sport scene. Obviously there was going to be a great amount of interest in the sequel. Ready made community - The community around brood war was well established and well organised. Websites such as teamliquid already had large followings. Community figures such as Day9, Moletrap, Diggity etc. were already well known and practiced at producing quality content, and brought their followers to SC2. Players such as idra, whitera, ret, nony etc. were already known. Blizzard brand name - Before SC2 blizzard had not yet tarnished their company's image. Apart from arguably one or two mediocre expansions for WoW, blizzard had only produced excellent games, and had a large community of loyal followers. The release of a new blizzard game was a big deal. Level playing field - Although brood war was popular outside of korea, the pro scene was almost entirely dominated by korea. The release of SC2 gave foreigners a chance to compete on the top level. Because of this, a lot of investment was put into the foreign scene, and the presence of foreigners at the top levels of competition helped enlarge the non-korean e-sports scene. Viewers were attracted due to the novelty of watching players from their own country compete. Kespa players - The legendary players from BW switching to SC2 was a big deal. There was a lot of excitement generated, and still is, by the thought of watching former BW legends carve up the SC2 scene. Notice how none of these things have anything at all to do with the quality of SC2 itself. I think SC2 could have been a complete turd of a game and it still would have had a decent following. One might even go further and say that SC2 was a complete turd of a game at release. All the factors above carried it long enough for blizzard to patch the game into a somewhat balanced and fun state, but as it stands, 2 years on, there are still a lot of fundamental problems with the game. It is true that HOTS will reinvigorate the scene somewhat, however unless a lot of the significant problems with the game are fixed, there is a chance that interest in SC2 will fade away too far for a healthy e-sport scene to exist for the game. There are no more big outside factors that will bring people to SC2. On the contrary, there is now growing competition from other games. It doesn't matter that SC2 is the only real competitor in the RTS genre at the moment. Something does not stay popular simply because it is the only option. If the game is not fun to play, people will not play it. If it is not fun to watch, they will not watch it. | ||
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lukasdesign
Switzerland93 Posts
Starcraft 2 is fucked because everybody, from bronze to talks about single units. Best example was Gretorps post on FF. He is probably right from a pro view, but that is just not the point. 99.9% percents of people buying the game will never ever feel those FF issues. Hell, who uses FF in bronze and silver league? Silver and Bronze are the leagues representing most of the players...so where is the point? Destiny is the first and only player that tries to get the big picture: A successful game needs tons of buyers, therefore the game has to be fun to play. A successful eSports title needs tons of viewers AND tons of buyers. This is the dilemma. In the beta SC2 was fun to watch (just think about TLO, QXC..), it was innovative and fresh. Crazy actions and builds were dominating. When the game went public, everybody tried to mimic those TLO builds. And now? Well all the games are the EXACTLY the same. Take TvP (from a T POV) as the perfect example of this! All-Ins are nerfed to death by Blizz. So what we see is 1 rax FE, with a timing push after 10 minutes, when 2 medis pop out. T tries to damage P, if not P will build up its death ball and crush T later on. After the initial push blabalabaal. I doubt that a potential buyer will be turned into an actual player by watching Dreamhack Bucharest... Hell, I don't remember when I watched the last tournament stream...honestly my time on earth is to precious as to waste it with super predictable streams. I loved the first Dreamhacks! MLG Columbus... I play to have fun, and I want to watch to have fun. Everything else is secondary. I don't care about pro whining about certain units, I don't care about veterans crying about how much better BW was, and I don't care about noobs demanding buffs and nerfs all over the place. i want fun! SC2 is made out of 3 races, why I am forced to play only one? Why can't I have 3 1v1 leagues? In team play it's possible (with different partners). Why can't I participate with a clan in league games (i.e all the games are accounting for a team, composed of different players). Why is Blizzard negating the fact that team games are an essential part of SC2? the team maps suck! FFA sucks...all those things have to be addressed in order to keep players active. because only active players will continue to watch streams. And only ACTIVE viewers will generate revenues for stream hosts etc. Custom games made by Blizz: Once u know how to cheese your way through they loose all their charm, so they suck tremendously. The community prevents the custom section from completely dieing. Achievements? Well Cannon rushing gives you plenty of geek points...how exciting. Hell, it's even true for the campaign. Once u find out that marine/medic beats everything, the brutal walkthrough becomes just braindead... I am not gonna go into Hots...because Blizz isn't even trying to increase the fun of the game. They insert some more units (which nobody needs) instead of making sure that a vast variety of strategies become viable in different matchups, and all the existing units become viable! I will buy that expansion only if i can expect some changes in ladder AND custom game-play. There are just too many great games out there at the moment! Unfortunately none is made by Blizz....Diablo€ is skipped thanks to their fukked up auction house BS and WoW is anyway dead just my 2cents | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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Animzor
Sweden2154 Posts
On October 25 2012 23:33 Xyik wrote: I disagree that you can't grow e-sports. A game becomes popular when one person plays and in doing so, influences his friends to play. However, when all a friend hears about a game is imbalance, whine and disgust at Blizzard, of course he / she is going to lose interest. Instead, if you promote it as a classy intelligent game where there is lots of money, skill and personality, friends maintain interest. Just staying positive and loving the game can help promote SC2. Not only that, there are so many social channels that can be used to help get the game out there. For example, posting a screen shot from a funny game you played on facebook and having your friends comment and share it. Or even tweeting about SC2 events. These things can all help promote the game. But all of those things would be lies. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
I'll agree with that and add that Blizzard is unfortunately, the root problem. However I don't think they could have done much better, you simply can't tailor a game to be both casual and highly-competitive without losing some of your player base. However, LoL is simply doing better due to the fact that there are more casual gamers which then in turn brings more pros to the scene. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
Oh well. | ||
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
On October 25 2012 12:59 Kozo wrote: Trying your very best and not making necessary changes within 2 years, than you should be fired. He feels as if blizzard should do something to change the game rather than the players themselves? Souds logic to me. How do you suggest we approach casual gamers? And we cant literally change the game, we can just try to make it more appealing in the eye of the casual right? So how do you suggest we do that when the game already had its peak and since then only dropped more and more players rather than gaining them, we got no more ingame features now compared to the time when people stopped playing, we got professional players/icons for the game that runs a kindergarden on twitch called ITG. So please, do share? How? "Blizzard is not doing anything so we shouldn't do anything." Is that the exact thing he said? Dont really get the quotation marks if you dont even quote him properly. He is right anyhow, dont get me wrong, i think it would be great for the community to come together and try to get people back into this game BUT as i stated above it wont happen unless Blizzard takes responsibility of their own game and makes the changes it needs, it just wont. And how is watching Idras commercials a step in the right direction? You put money in his pockets, thats your way of bringing Sc2 back to its former glory?. Casuals dont give a crap about pro players streaming high tier ladder games, only reason i started watching is because i wanted to become better at the game after i already started, sc2 streams didnt make me buy the game, my old wc3 memories on playing custom games with my mates made me buy sc2, since i thought they would have something similar but i was in for a rude awakening when it was nothing close to the same feeling. And how you can seriously say that wheat was on the same level as Destiny is just beyond me. Did you even see the show? Maybe you got it confused with Dr.phil? Blizzard's team is very small, they are trying. Look at the Arcade, although it's not perfect it shows that they are indeed trying. What do you expect from a game that does not have any micro transactions or subscriptions, please try to think of it on a professional level, they really are trying to improve this game. This game released with NO CHAT CHANNELS. They addressed that issue, if you've seen the UI changes in HotS they are listening to the community. Destiny did say we can't do anything. "How do we grow StarCraft 2? You can't." And yes watching idra or playhems commercials DOES HELP sc2. Even Destiny himself said so, "The best way to grow E-Sports is to acquire more viewers." So watching streams and putting money in the pockets of your players is a GOOD thing. I did watch Inside the Game, Destiny was quite incoherent on the show. Numerous times he was getting emotional and yelling, talking over other people. The only person professional was Painuser, everyone else was just too emotional which is understandable, this is a game we all love. It was utter chaos and I could easily have mistaken it for Dr. Phil. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On October 25 2012 23:48 bonifaceviii wrote: I don't think Destiny's stance was given proper respect on ITG, but Destiny definitely didn't express himself well either. Oh well. It's truly a shame. He could not be more right, but his history of immature behavior (plus ITG) are taking away from his credibility. | ||
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jdsowa
405 Posts
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Swords
6038 Posts
However, is the game actually failing? This whole situation is really weird to me. Destiny wrote his post and suddenly everyone was talking about Starcraft 2 dying out and how the game was going to be gone before it's 3rd expansion. Maybe this had to do with the fact that Destiny's post coincided with the disbanding of SlayerS, but honestly it seemed like we had a fairly healthy scene (with some underlying problems of course) one day and the next day everyone was saying "woe is me, Starcraft is dead". What I'd really like to see is some actual numbers. What have the average stream views for tournaments been like for the last two years on a monthly basis? If someone were to map out each month for Dreamhack or GSL, what would the numbers look like? This is what is actually important. If the numbers are declining you can take these numbers to Blizzard and say "Hey! Look! Your game's pro-scene which you claim to care about is actually dying. Here's what we, as your community think can be done to improve it." Blizzard isn't going to be convinced to change by tweets or long Reddit posts. They'll be convinced to change by having it demonstrated that if they don't shape up they stand to lose money. This sounds cynical, but ultimately their goal is make money. My proposal is that if people in this community want change they need to do some research. Look up the stream numbers for tournaments and top streamers. Take into account things like when the school year starts (less views due to other commitments), or if the streamer has declining popularity (Destiny's photo/IdrA's decline as a competitive player). Survey the people on Reddit and here. Ask them how committed they are to buying HoTS, and what changes would convince them to buy it the most (UI fixes or cool new units or both?). Compiling this data would give people an actual look at the health of the scene. It would give Blizzard an actual numerical reason to get their asses in gear, if there is a reason to do so. It just bugs me that so many people have jumped on this "Starcraft will die if we don't do anything" bandwagon just because Destiny said this was the case. It's lead to stupid pointless drama, as we saw on ITG, and a suddenly morose attitude towards the game that can't be appealing to potential sponsors. Let's see some real data and research before we as a community take action. | ||
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Tsu
United States16 Posts
On October 25 2012 20:11 Disposition1989 wrote: What's even more of a tragedy is the makeover that D3 got for the last 5 months. sc2 has gotten nowhere near as much attention, ever. Apparently D3 now compared to D3 at launch is day and night. Every little thing the community wanted, they eventually got. Except Lan but who is surprised there. You can't really be surprised with it though, blizz is making so much money off of the RMAH fees they have to try to keep anyone and everyone playing it. What money are they making with SC2 outside of two expansions planned? I guess they take cuts of tournament revenue with larger prize pools (which totally helps the growth...) They were planning on having paid 'premium' custom maps but with as slow as they are moving with the basic stuff I don't see how they would have time to make these premium maps. They would have to go about it the same way Valve is with TF2 and Dota2 store, let the community create the maps and take some for themselves. | ||
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3772
Czech Republic434 Posts
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Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On October 26 2012 00:49 jdsowa wrote: With all due respect to alot of the pros, they came into SC2 already knowing how to play RTS. They don't know what it's like to play SC2 as a casual, so they don't get the frustrations people feel when they get cheesed or have their maxed army evaporate to storms in 8 seconds. Pro's get cheesed all the time and it's MORE frustrating for them because they all know they should be good enough to stop it. When a casual gets cheesed and looses they, more often than not, chalk it up to imbalance and don't give it a second thought. A pro analyses the replay and agonizes over why they suck so badly. In a way you're correct, the professional experience and the casual experience are vastly different. But you're backwards. Blizzard did an admirable thing in trying to craft a game that made us feel like pro's. But it just doesn't work like that. We get all of the stress, anxiety, and self loathing without any of the reward. It's not that the pro's don't know what our experience is like, they know. It's that we get the bad parts of their experience and none of the good parts. | ||
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ToT)OjKa(
Korea (South)2437 Posts
On October 26 2012 01:12 Klondikebar wrote: Pro's get cheesed all the time and it's MORE frustrating for them because they all know they should be good enough to stop it. When a casual gets cheesed and looses they, more often than not, chalk it up to imbalance and don't give it a second thought. A pro analyses the replay and agonizes over why they suck so badly. Surely that's completely the opposite way round? If a pro gets cheesed, they aren't the ones that get frustrated. They know it's "part of the game" and they know that it was their fault that they didn't think/didn't scout correctly and will keep it in mind. They will "chalk it up to imbalance" and barely give it a second thought because it's quite a binary procedure. A casual getting cheesed is more along the lines of: "why does he have units in my base already" "how the fuck did they get there so fast" "what the fuck this isn't fun" "why does someone do this to me" "how can i play the game when i get killed 2 minutes in" "this is fucking stupid i can't even play the game" Most casuals would drop off the ladder scene at this point. The ones that give a shit might look up how to deal with it cheese but even then they'll still face the same problems that a pro does when dealing with cheese, except they have less skill, less patience and less experience. | ||
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