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On October 25 2012 11:37 Kozo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 10:48 Fizzy wrote:
I must say, i hadnt read this post but i heard all around that Destiny was crying and saying bad stuff about esports.. and that IdrA is some kind of hero who blasted Destinys arguments out of the sky.... im pretty surprised to see that it was the other way around.
Destiny is right on the money with every single one of the points he make, sure he is writing as a 11 year old kid with ADD sometimes with his random mass caps and !!!11111ONeone.... but he is making some very valid points.
I didnt even realize untill now that most of the time i spent on sc1 and sc:bw was playing either 2v2/3v3/4v4 with my friends, talking to people in chat channels or playing UMS games.... i only played ranked ladder 1v1 once in a while but i had huge ladder anxiety.
This might be the reason to why i played WoL from closed beta untill a few weeks after game release, then i just stopped playing for some reason, dont know why.... i am still a huge fan of watching competitive starcraft2 but i dont play the game....
Oh well, seems like my favorite company got destroyed when Blizzard North got removed, WoW expansions, D3 and now SC2 expansions have all been failures. Viva la valve and dota2 <3 In what world would Idra actually win an arguement against Destiny? Destiny is good at talking, he could win an arguement eventho he would be wrong. Tho he doesnt need to do that now since he is right about everything. The mass caps used in quotations and other statements is more of a way to emphasis how you would think of it if someone was actually telling you this to your face rather than you reading it yourself, i kinda like it. I met some idiots that actually talks about sc2 in that way, so i understand where his coming from. And just a side note here, the only reason Idra cares at all about these questions or casuals in general is because of the $. He even stated on Sotg that he hates sc2, he doesnt even like the game. How does that bring casuals to the game? Idra and Incontrol are two big jokes, wheat is the biggest child i have ever seen, i thought to myself that it has to be scientifically impossible for that guy to be 35 years old after his embarrassing outburst on ITG, only guy that deserves any creds is Painuser, awesome guy that deserves a better panel than those three idiots. Destiny got ganked by three idiots and i understand his reaction, tho he did get carried away and ranted about the same stuff but he is still trying to reach out to Blizz. And this drama might make them to take notice, hard to avoid it. So in a way Destiny have already done a better job than idra, incontrol and wheat all together.
lol, idra and incontrol makes more sense than you ever will, also i disagree that destiny is in the right, the way idra and incontrol handled it was terrible though
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lmao @ the OP, I sooo agree :D
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Destiny is getting nothing but agreement in this thread... Pages and pages of people agreeing, feeling the same way.
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On October 25 2012 12:06 RoarMan wrote:
Destiny utterly failed to get his point across on live on three. I agree that with Destiny that Blizzard is extremely slow to respond to a lot of problems, but Destiny's approach to this is only fueling negativity. Yes Blizzard is to take some blame, but they can't take all the blame. The starcraft 2 team is extremely small and I honestly think they are trying their very best, they don't want this game to "die."
At the same time, it's extremely childish for Destiny to just throw his hands up and say "Blizzard is not doing anything so we shouldn't do anything." There are a lot of small things that we as a community can do to help Sc2. Simply watching your favorite sc2 streams will help sc2. Your views add up. Yes Destiny is well spoken, but on live on three he was as big of a troll as incontrol, idra or wheat.
Trying your very best and not making necessary changes within 2 years, than you should be fired. He feels as if blizzard should do something to change the game rather than the players themselves? Souds logic to me. How do you suggest we approach casual gamers? And we cant literally change the game, we can just try to make it more appealing in the eye of the casual right? So how do you suggest we do that when the game already had its peak and since then only dropped more and more players rather than gaining them, we got no more ingame features now compared to the time when people stopped playing, we got professional players/icons for the game that runs a kindergarden on twitch called ITG.
So please, do share? How?
"Blizzard is not doing anything so we shouldn't do anything." Is that the exact thing he said? Dont really get the quotation marks if you dont even quote him properly. He is right anyhow, dont get me wrong, i think it would be great for the community to come together and try to get people back into this game BUT as i stated above it wont happen unless Blizzard takes responsibility of their own game and makes the changes it needs, it just wont.
And how is watching Idras commercials a step in the right direction? You put money in his pockets, thats your way of bringing Sc2 back to its former glory?. Casuals dont give a crap about pro players streaming high tier ladder games, only reason i started watching is because i wanted to become better at the game after i already started, sc2 streams didnt make me buy the game, my old wc3 memories on playing custom games with my mates made me buy sc2, since i thought they would have something similar but i was in for a rude awakening when it was nothing close to the same feeling.
And how you can seriously say that wheat was on the same level as Destiny is just beyond me. Did you even see the show? Maybe you got it confused with Dr.phil?
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On October 25 2012 12:20 X3GoldDot wrote:
lol, idra and incontrol makes more sense than you ever will, also i disagree that destiny is in the right, the way idra and incontrol handled it was terrible though
How so? Doing high fives and insulting other people makes sense, i agree. Incontrol always do the same built up rant with 99% insult and 1% facts that are actually relevant. He even stated in the ITG thread that he doesnt dislike/hate destiny, yet he goes very personal in his insults.
The dick pic speech is just an example, retarded and unprofessional at best, and very personal (funny for someone that he doesnt hate/dislike). Incontrol is a big baby that needs to be in the center of everything.
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sc2 is dead. Let's play LoL guys. Ashe op
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my problem with WoL is the cheese. its really not fun to play this game if you get cannon rushed 3 times in a row then 10 pooled then 2 raxed. like im not a shitty player and yet i see these things coming but still cant avoid to lose to it. its really not fun to lose to this type of shit and thats why i stopped laddering
not saying blizzard can (or will) do anything about that but i think i speak for a lot of non-pro players that ladder when i say that playing this game gets me really mad and I dont have any fun when i get cheesed.
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I'm completely on board with all of this. While there are some parts of the game that are fantastic, I HAVE NEVER been more disappointed in Blizzard than with there response time to change things in Starcraft 2. When this game dies, it will have been THERE fault.
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On October 20 2012 05:02 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 00:22 Dfgj wrote:On October 19 2012 18:18 blug wrote:On October 19 2012 18:14 bokeevboke wrote:On October 19 2012 17:54 Assirra wrote:Then why is he playing it? Might as well just take a normal job. He has a wrong attitude if he thinks he can pursue sc2 pro career. I doubt he'll stay for long. But its hard to blame him, sc2 isn't fun as bw. That's just crap, I played sc1 back in the day and I got bored of it really quickly. I felt as though the units were just clunky and it was a battle against the UI. With sc2 it's about out thinking your opponent and also has a bit of micro involved (Yes, sc2 micro is hard. Doing drops in 3 different locations is hard and splitting your army correctly can be hard to). It's just nostalgic fan boys... People still play BW now. They play it instead of SC2, because they find it more fun. Please explain how that is nostalgia (without using a term like 'artificial fun'). Wait what? I don't really see how that destroys my argument of it being nostalgic. It doesn't strengthen my argument, nor does it weaken it. Most play sc1 for nostalgia, also some probably play it because they are really good at it and don't like the idea of joining a brand new game in which they will be sub par at. I do the same thing for some games... I played Counter Strike and I got really really good at it, I would top the charts almost all the time. It was incredibly hard for me to quit Counter Strike, it basically wasn't even fun anymore but I felt as though if I quit I would start sucking at it so I kept going. SC1 was a good game for it's time, but under today's standards... It's meh. No one in their right mind would choose sc1 over sc2 if you presented it to them for the very first time, nor would they have more fun if you say them down to play it. They would argue that the UI is terrible, it's got bad graphics, and the gameplay is clunky and slow with SC1. They would say that SC2 is superior in all those aspects mentioned.
"Meh" is SC 2, not BW. You clearly dont understandd that MANY people really BELIEVE that this game is better and nostalgia have noithing to it. BTW my cousin started watching BW in 2011 and SC2 at the same time, and he stoped watching SC2 really fast (he watched some BW instead, althou he is Company of Heroes player)
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I disagree that things like unranked 1v1s and clan tags are not what's needed to make this game more friendly. A lot of casuals do want to play 1v1, but are discouraged from doing so because of ladder anxiety. Clan tags I think would do a huge thing in terms of making the game more casual friendly, in that people would be more motivated to get their friends into it and play team games. I also thing you put a little too much emphasis on name changes, but I do agree this is an issue.
Almost everything else I agree with though; you need a casual scene for the competitive scene to work. Doesn't mean you need to make a 'low ceiling noob game', just means you need to implement things that casuals can use, but it takes a professional to master.
I agree especially with arcade, that thing is just as much of a shitfest than it was before the big overhaul. I also agree a lot on needing some sort of measure of progression to encourage people to keep grinding out games.
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The game types are what take bigger chunks of the casual gamers away. Let's make a comparison:
SC2:
Ranked ladder, regardless of mode (apart from customs) -> ladder anxiety
Require macro in order to build army (yes 6pool, and proxies still require some degree of macro to get your timings crisp)
Must do everything timely and have certain APM
Must pay for the game
No sense of progress apart from going up the ladder
Lack of social integration
Fantastic viewing experience, easy to understand whats happening on a basic level (army vs army, casters quote econ etc)
LoL:
Ranked/Unranked and always team based -> easy to start game
Get into the heat of battle straight away with minimal "macro" (buying items)
Do not have to pay for the game
For casual players, micro transactions and points give a sense of progress
Not much social integration (imo)
Somewhat average viewing experience, a lot is going on and most ppl will get lost at what the players are doing and the screen usually just becomes lost of flashy spells and ppl bouncing around.
These points were taken from a "casual" point of view, and it seems not only is the model of LoL superior for entry level gamers but the game lends itself to make it more assessable to play and keep players in giving them a sense of progress and socialisation.
What SC2 has going for it, is it's incredibly high skill ceiling and viewing experience. I don't think you can change the game, micro transations may help. But ultimately, SC2 is aimed for ppl who are hardcore fans or enjoy watching a game with ppl duking it out in a highly skilled sense. The games are ultimately different in their audience as of now, and thus LoL will always be superior in viewers as of now.
/rant end
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Russian Federation410 Posts
To me it looks like Destiny completely missed the point.
IMO, StarCraft 2 is still the best and the most difficult, punishing and at the same time deep and rewarding RTS game on the market. That title, however, comes with a downside of StarCraft II being potentially repellent. StarCraft 2 multiplayer is the only one that requires a mature approach to succeed in, which is a turn-off for the generation of insta-fun gamers, anxious to be challenged personally.
StarCraft 2, obviously, is not a new standalone game, it is a modern extension of Brood War. A great deal of skill is required to excel at it, skill that can only be acquired through education and practice, which is extremely time consuming and an unwanted prerequisite to modern gaming experience.
To further understand all of this one must look at game experience "stages" of StarCraft 2:
1. Campaign. A reward to returning players and a great tool to attract new players. IMO it was done flawlessly by Blizzard. WoL has an interesting story, told through engaging and interactive gameplay, cut-scenes and movies, sprinkled with Easter-eggs, achievements and all the x-box generation campaign must-haves, i.e. unlockables.
2. Casual multiplayer experience. The next step of gaming experience, - was not put together that well. IMO, it consists of playing custom games (tower defense, rpgs and so on), non-ladder versus games and the very first ladder games:
A) Custom games. Sadly, no well presented. The Interface wasn't intuitive; map development took time, the unpleasantness lead to the "Arcade". Problems were not addressed in a timely fashion and most players moved on from this stage. Custom games are something Dota/LoL cannot offer, a great tool to divercify and enhance casual gaming experience;
B) Non-ladder versus games (Practice games).
C) First competitive ladder experience. It must be rewarding and challenging enough to keep people playing. Requires
a good match-making system to avoid mixing new and more experienced players;
3. Consistent laddering. Many never got into consistent laddering because of difficulties that needed to be overcome. For laddering to be enjoyable one must win more than lose or experience progression of any sort. That requires substantial time investment. Uneven playing field consistent of Blizzard RTS pros and enthusiasts versus new players mostly didn't help the motivation.
Also exists on this stage - 1vs1 ladder anxiety, that, IMO, doesn't exist in team moba games, because a player is always part of the team he can rely on and relate to.
4. Advanced Laddering. Enthusiasts and Pros who understand what it takes to excel at the game. The only reason to abandon this experience is strategical imbalance and reaching one's skill ceiling.
As far as I can see the "3" and "4" groups are your regular tournament and stream observers, a marketable audience, that was hurt by flaws in Battle.net, balance and competition from Dota/LoL.
Blizzard has a chance at a fresh start with Hots, they need to recreate, polish and finally connect all gaming experience steps. I have no doubt HoTS campaign will be great, Blizzard dota and Arcade should address issues on step #2. Global ladder and cross-region play are solutions for leveling up ladder difficulty, separating pros and enthusiasts from the wave of new and low-skilled players.
IMO, the game needs a proper built-in educational system, aimed to prepare new players for laddering (other than the existing challenges).
The final step should be balancing the game and introducing streaming features. Multiplayer replay viewing and saves were announced (afair), also most welcome would be a built-in streaming/observing client.
To summ up:
StarCraft 2 is still the most advanced game of them all. Blizzard has every opportunity to reboot, tweak and improve it. They've already announced a number of long awaited features, but more needs to be done. With HoTS they have a chance of a fresh start. Blizzard has all the necessary tools to not only attract new players to the updated game, but also to grab players off competition (Dota, LoL). New players will be attracted by the new Campaign and Custom Games, and should be provided with rewarding competetive muliplayer experience to follow that. Returning players can be attracted by Balance, streaming features and e-sports entertainment scene.
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I have quit playing SC2 after 3 months: ladder was stressful and mostly unrewarding as zerg at the time.
I have continued watching for about 4 more months before quiting that as well. The competitive games got stale, nothing new or exciting (oh look another terran all-in)
I have completely given up on anything Starcraft related and went to play Dota 2 instead and I am having a blast for about a year now.
Bottom line is the game is just not fun to watch or play, pure and simple, it gets old really fast.
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On October 25 2012 15:55 Go0g3n wrote:
IMO, StarCraft 2 is still the best and the most difficult, punishing and at the same time deep and rewarding RTS game on the market.
I don't wholely agree with this.
Protoss and Zerg feels shallow.
TvT is somewhat a deep matchup, many things undiscovered yet. But TvTs are not so often right now.
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time is different... think about what games people had when starcraft first came out. And take a look at what we have now.....
Honestly Im just playing sc2 to complete the story line so I dont really care.
P.S. how is LOL explosive... none of the people I know is playing that shit. LOL has the most ignorant community of all games. Even lessons of passion >>> LOL.
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People that enjoy RTS games will keep watching and suporting Sc2, because there is not a single other high caliber RTS game out there.
I wish there was, so blizzard would not have a monopoly position they currently have and they would listen to what the community has to say. (and bluntly steal the competion biggest strenghts as WoW did)
With the rise of LoL and Dota2 i hope Blizzard can atleast steal points on what the competition is doing well and they are utterly failing with getting a big community going.
Fact is there need to be more games then just Blizzards games to get a healthy competition going, other games got a foot ahead currently, let's see if Blizzard can catch up and pass them.
And dear god is Dota boring to watch o0
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This is my first time back at teamliquid since I stopped playing this game 2 years ago. So I found this thread intresting. I quit when I was facing grandmasters and played thousands of game. I only really played because of my clan and my love for RTS games. But as I said then, I will say again. Starcraft 2 isn't good. It's not all bad, but it is not good. The fact is, the game is only good because of the community. As I'm typing this, I cannot help but to smile. The fact that this thread exists and how I see SC2 just going down. It proves me right. After the what i've seen from HOTS, Starcraft 2 will still suck after release. Blizzard are retards. SC2 has more fundemental problems than I can count on my hands but they are blind to see them. If you would ask what those problems are, you don't know games and you don't know game developement. It is that obvious and people have been pointing them out for years. Regardless, if anyone would actually reads this post. Come over to Dota 2. It is a hundred times more fun. It may not look exciting on streams or on esport televisions. But valve and icefrog is competent gamedevelopers. It sure as hell beats noob sc2...
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He is completely right, LoL is getting millions of live viewers while sc2 is dying. Simply because Blizzard doesn't know how to promote their game, they should take some lessons from Riot games.
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Considering these points, what ever happened to the "premium maps" idea. Isn't that significantly more harmful to the casual scene than anything currently in SC2 existence? Sure it can increase the quality of maps a bit but at the huge cost of accessibility. I am not surprised if map makers are already withholding maps in an attempt to wait for that "pay to play" system. This is completely opposite to LoL's free to play model and how it attracted such a vast audience.
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BW's success was because of Korea plain and simple and Korea's not buying SC2. There's no one Linkedin that Blizzard can hire to save SC2.
They can't provide a true sequel to competitive BW because it had nothing to do with them in the first place. The entire foreign scene was at best a fan tribute to the Korean one. Idra's right - it's up to this 'community' to make something out of the content that's available.
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EPT
