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On October 19 2012 18:14 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 17:54 Assirra wrote:Then why is he playing it? Might as well just take a normal job. He has a wrong attitude if he thinks he can pursue sc2 pro career. I doubt he'll stay for long. But its hard to blame him, sc2 isn't fun as bw.
That's just crap, I played sc1 back in the day and I got bored of it really quickly. I felt as though the units were just clunky and it was a battle against the UI.
With sc2 it's about out thinking your opponent and also has a bit of micro involved (Yes, sc2 micro is hard. Doing drops in 3 different locations is hard and splitting your army correctly can be hard to).
It's just nostalgic fan boys...
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On October 19 2012 12:59 bokeevboke wrote:
What I hate the most about SC2 and why I left it, is because its very stressful to play it. You build your army and the base for 20 min only to be rolled over in a single attack, thats not how RTS should work. Things die too fast. There is barely any time to react.
For instance, I'd love if the game was smth like this: enemy makes a lot of A and B units and puts a lot of pressure on you, he makes wave after wave attacks and you start feeling that your forces are dwindling and your production can't handle it. You think, a-ha, I need to change my strat and start producing F unit. F unit is a bit immobile, so your enemy starts attacking different locations with C units and so on. And in all the mids of it micro battles, tactics are going on. You don't die in a single hit but rather have a long fight, and the one with better decisions will come on top.
In SC2: enemy makes A,B,C,D unit combo, you make F,D,H,G combo. You meet somewhere on the map and the game is over. Thats fucking SC2 in nutshell.
Welcome to Warcraft 3 son.
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On October 19 2012 18:18 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 18:14 bokeevboke wrote:On October 19 2012 17:54 Assirra wrote:Then why is he playing it? Might as well just take a normal job. He has a wrong attitude if he thinks he can pursue sc2 pro career. I doubt he'll stay for long. But its hard to blame him, sc2 isn't fun as bw. That's just crap, I played sc1 back in the day and I got bored of it really quickly. I felt as though the units were just clunky and it was a battle against the UI. With sc2 it's about out thinking your opponent and also has a bit of micro involved (Yes, sc2 micro is hard. Doing drops in 3 different locations is hard and splitting your army correctly can be hard to). It's just nostalgic fan boys...
I've never heard a word from bw player who'd say he doesn't enjoy the game. On the contrary, most of bw pro players still play for fun eventhough they get huge paychecks and have to practice 24/7. Whereas I hear a lot of complaints from sc2 pros.
Well, its subjective ofc. Everyone has own preferences. But I'm just saying.
I'm not a nostalgic fan boy. I deleted sc2 9 months ago, and play bw from time to time. Thats not because I want to prove something. I simply enjoy bw more than sc2.
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I read/skimmed through all 69 pages, and it is quite refreshing and satisfying to see so many people finally opening their eyes and seeing SC2 (and Blizzard) for what BW fans said it was 2 years ago.
Back then, it was all "give SC2 time, give SC2 time, trust blizzard".
I'm glad I didn't see much, if at all, of that in this thread; people finally woke up.
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On October 19 2012 18:28 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 18:18 blug wrote:On October 19 2012 18:14 bokeevboke wrote:On October 19 2012 17:54 Assirra wrote:Then why is he playing it? Might as well just take a normal job. He has a wrong attitude if he thinks he can pursue sc2 pro career. I doubt he'll stay for long. But its hard to blame him, sc2 isn't fun as bw. That's just crap, I played sc1 back in the day and I got bored of it really quickly. I felt as though the units were just clunky and it was a battle against the UI. With sc2 it's about out thinking your opponent and also has a bit of micro involved (Yes, sc2 micro is hard. Doing drops in 3 different locations is hard and splitting your army correctly can be hard to). It's just nostalgic fan boys... I've never heard a word from bw player who'd say he doesn't enjoy the game. On the contrary, most of bw pro players still play for fun eventhough they get huge paychecks and have to practice 24/7. Whereas I hear a lot of complaints from sc2 pros. Well, its subjective ofc. Everyone has own preferences. But I'm just saying. I'm not a nostalgic fan boy. I deleted sc2 9 months ago, and play bw from time to time. Thats not because I want to prove something. I simply enjoy bw more than sc2.
Dude I'm not trying to be rude, but it probably is nostalgia. Everyone gets it. I enjoy playing Pokemon Blue more than the new Pokemon games. I know friends who won't play World of Warcraft because they enjoyed Burning Crusade more. I prefer to play SNES RPGs more than RPGs that are coming out these days.
I'm just saying Nostalgia is the main reason why people thought it was a better game.
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On October 19 2012 18:39 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 18:28 bokeevboke wrote:On October 19 2012 18:18 blug wrote:On October 19 2012 18:14 bokeevboke wrote:On October 19 2012 17:54 Assirra wrote:Then why is he playing it? Might as well just take a normal job. He has a wrong attitude if he thinks he can pursue sc2 pro career. I doubt he'll stay for long. But its hard to blame him, sc2 isn't fun as bw. That's just crap, I played sc1 back in the day and I got bored of it really quickly. I felt as though the units were just clunky and it was a battle against the UI. With sc2 it's about out thinking your opponent and also has a bit of micro involved (Yes, sc2 micro is hard. Doing drops in 3 different locations is hard and splitting your army correctly can be hard to). It's just nostalgic fan boys... I've never heard a word from bw player who'd say he doesn't enjoy the game. On the contrary, most of bw pro players still play for fun eventhough they get huge paychecks and have to practice 24/7. Whereas I hear a lot of complaints from sc2 pros. Well, its subjective ofc. Everyone has own preferences. But I'm just saying. I'm not a nostalgic fan boy. I deleted sc2 9 months ago, and play bw from time to time. Thats not because I want to prove something. I simply enjoy bw more than sc2. Dude I'm not trying to be rude, but it probably is nostalgia. Everyone gets it. I enjoy playing Pokemon Blue more than the new Pokemon games. I know friends who won't play World of Warcraft because they enjoyed Burning Crusade more. I prefer to play SNES RPGs more than RPGs that are coming out these days. I'm just saying Nostalgia is the main reason why people thought it was a better game.
Its only matter of personal preference. Lets stop derailing the thread.
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Just want to throw my 2 cents in.
Even though the OP is written... let's say with a lot of mean words, there's a lot of truth in it imo.
Blizzard doesn't seem to be interested in the casual players. All they see is the Pro scene, because that's where the money comes from probably (tournament licenses).
In tournaments, chat channels are not needed, ingame Clan functions... what for?
I might get league flames for this, but I don't care. The game is balanced purely on Pro-level. Units get nerfed for a specific race, because Pros can get too much out of them through micro. Casual players that can't micro that well are effected to the point where they have major issues to compete. Blizzard doesn't care. Making the other races similar micro intensive is neglected. (On a sidenote: In BW all races needed quite some micro, because of the max group sizes (and maybe some other factors). The micro demand was a lot closer together.)
"If you think your race is UP, then switch races." - I don't want to. I like Terran... always liked it since BW. Also the other races have mechanics that would take me ages to wrap my head around (e.g Larva or Warpin mechanic), while others have learned that right from the start (maybe even from the start of BW).
Don't get me wrong, Terran isn't UP... not overall... it's UP, if you don't have Pro-like micro and multitasking skills though. Why does a race exist that is casual unfriendly? Because Blizzard doesn't care about casuals. In their world of Pro balance everything is fine.
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On October 19 2012 18:21 Tchado wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:59 bokeevboke wrote:
What I hate the most about SC2 and why I left it, is because its very stressful to play it. You build your army and the base for 20 min only to be rolled over in a single attack, thats not how RTS should work. Things die too fast. There is barely any time to react.
For instance, I'd love if the game was smth like this: enemy makes a lot of A and B units and puts a lot of pressure on you, he makes wave after wave attacks and you start feeling that your forces are dwindling and your production can't handle it. You think, a-ha, I need to change my strat and start producing F unit. F unit is a bit immobile, so your enemy starts attacking different locations with C units and so on. And in all the mids of it micro battles, tactics are going on. You don't die in a single hit but rather have a long fight, and the one with better decisions will come on top.
In SC2: enemy makes A,B,C,D unit combo, you make F,D,H,G combo. You meet somewhere on the map and the game is over. Thats fucking SC2 in nutshell. Welcome to Warcraft 3 son.
And that's why I loved Warcraft 3 so much and still enjoy watching it.
Stopped watching Starcraft II, by the way... never played it all that much. It was stressful and boring.
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On October 19 2012 18:28 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 18:18 blug wrote:On October 19 2012 18:14 bokeevboke wrote:On October 19 2012 17:54 Assirra wrote:Then why is he playing it? Might as well just take a normal job. He has a wrong attitude if he thinks he can pursue sc2 pro career. I doubt he'll stay for long. But its hard to blame him, sc2 isn't fun as bw. That's just crap, I played sc1 back in the day and I got bored of it really quickly. I felt as though the units were just clunky and it was a battle against the UI. With sc2 it's about out thinking your opponent and also has a bit of micro involved (Yes, sc2 micro is hard. Doing drops in 3 different locations is hard and splitting your army correctly can be hard to). It's just nostalgic fan boys... I've never heard a word from bw player who'd say he doesn't enjoy the game. On the contrary, most of bw pro players still play for fun eventhough they get huge paychecks and have to practice 24/7. Whereas I hear a lot of complaints from sc2 pros. Well, its subjective ofc. Everyone has own preferences. But I'm just saying. I'm not a nostalgic fan boy. I deleted sc2 9 months ago, and play bw from time to time. Thats not because I want to prove something. I simply enjoy bw more than sc2.
Well considering at that BW was the thing with no competition whatsoever its kinda hard for them not to enjoy it.
Now they got all these fond memories of playing BW and constantly compare it with SC2 and when its different its suddenly bad.
If you want an analogy this like an old man talking "the good old days".
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On October 19 2012 17:53 blug wrote:
Yes, I say it's an easy thing to do, creating a UI is 1,000,000 times easier than creating the game itself <_______<
Designing a proper user experience (or 'UX') that is intuitive, easy to use, nice to look at, and feature-complete is definitely not a trivial task. I'm speaking from a web developer perspective here, who works with web designers who spend hours/days/long stretches of time figuring out just the right place to put content, action items (e.g. buttons or links), images, etc. to provide the best UX. Of course, creating the game itself is equally challenging, but don't dismiss UI design as something that's easy to do, as there's a lot of hard work involved (especially when your target audience is as large as Blizzard's).
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On October 19 2012 19:34 Assirra wrote:
Well considering at that BW was the thing with no competition whatsoever its kinda hard for them not to enjoy it.
Now they got all these fond memories of playing BW and constantly compare it with SC2 and when its different its suddenly bad.
If you want an analogy this like an old man talking "the good old days".
Still not understanding this no competition argument.....
Are we talking about competition in the form of other RTS games or in general?
Because it's generally accepted that 1996-1999 was the peak in releases and popularity for the RTS genre.You are saying that Dark Reign or Total Annihilation weren't competition? What about C&C Red Alert? Were you even around back in 98'?
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On October 19 2012 19:54 Scootaloo SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 17:53 blug wrote:
Yes, I say it's an easy thing to do, creating a UI is 1,000,000 times easier than creating the game itself <_______< Designing a proper user experience (or 'UX') that is intuitive, easy to use, nice to look at, and feature-complete is definitely not a trivial task. I'm speaking from a web developer perspective here, who works with web designers who spend hours/days/long stretches of time figuring out just the right place to put content, action items (e.g. buttons or links), images, etc. to provide the best UX. Of course, creating the game itself is equally challenging, but don't dismiss UI design as something that's easy to do, as there's a lot of hard work involved (especially when your target audience is as large as Blizzard's).
I'm speaking from someone who has written multiple User Interfaces in Java. I'm not trying to boast, but writing out a UI isn't that hard, basically follow a PACT mentality and you can't really fail as long as you have semi competent people.
UI is way easier than game design.
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I agree with all of his points. However the ingame design needs a ton of work. I agree with his analysis on the importance of the features and what really should be concentrated on. Promoting ladder like that and making it the focal point is really bad for casuals and the system just feels wonky. In League of Legends for instance, normal games and co-op vs AI is far more popular.
What if Blizzard developed a few dozen maps where you team up with other random(or premade) players and try to defeat the computer opponent(different scenarios, not just a normal melee map)? Of course Blizzard wouldn't bother developing something like that, it'd be amazing though.
Having emphasis on being able to do something with your friends and being able to have even your, say, sister or girlfriend or nephew enjoy the game when they are playing it for the first time is very important as well. 1v1 ladder doesn't need to be the only thing the game's about.
On October 19 2012 19:54 Scootaloo SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 17:53 blug wrote:
Yes, I say it's an easy thing to do, creating a UI is 1,000,000 times easier than creating the game itself <_______< Designing a proper user experience (or 'UX') that is intuitive, easy to use, nice to look at, and feature-complete is definitely not a trivial task. I'm speaking from a web developer perspective here, who works with web designers who spend hours/days/long stretches of time figuring out just the right place to put content, action items (e.g. buttons or links), images, etc. to provide the best UX. Of course, creating the game itself is equally challenging, but don't dismiss UI design as something that's easy to do, as there's a lot of hard work involved (especially when your target audience is as large as Blizzard's).
It really seems like you're grasping on straws or something, Blizzard UIs are awful lately. By awful I mean some-of-the-worst-I've-ever-seen awful. It really doesn't take much to develop a better one. They've had the entire concept for a better UI ready for 15 years already, actually.
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On October 19 2012 20:47 Shikyo wrote:
I agree with all of his points. However the ingame design needs a ton of work. I agree with his analysis on the importance of the features and what really should be concentrated on. Promoting ladder like that and making it the focal point is really bad for casuals and the system just feels wonky. In League of Legends for instance, normal games and co-op vs AI is far more popular.
What if Blizzard developed a few dozen maps where you team up with other random(or premade) players and try to defeat the computer opponent(different scenarios, not just a normal melee map)? Of course Blizzard wouldn't bother developing something like that, it'd be amazing though.
Having emphasis on being able to do something with your friends and being able to have even your, say, sister or girlfriend or nephew enjoy the game when they are playing it for the first time is very important as well. 1v1 ladder doesn't need to be the only thing the game's about.
IMO this is a great point. If you look at THE casual video game market, the console genre you can see a common theme among many popular games. A mode just like you described, a setting where you and your friends or random teammates battle against waves of NPC opponents in a survival style game. Maybe this wouldn't be the panacea I'm making it out to be, but I think enabling players to play with their friends is the best way to attract casuals. Blizzard should consider taking a serious look at 2s, 3s, and 4s. There needs to be more changes in the maps, new dynamics rather than ZZTP every 4v4 or playing the same 3 2v2 maps on rotation.
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I was never a fan and I'm still not a fan but destiny speaks the truth here.
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On October 19 2012 18:03 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 17:54 Assirra wrote:Then why is he playing it? Might as well just take a normal job. Honestly, butt hurt players like that just frustrate me. If you don't enjoy the game then don't play it.
sorry to let you know that over 95% of players frustrate you.
and yes eventually they will leave the game. ala jinro and haypro. it'll be a sad day.
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On October 19 2012 07:02 Mackus wrote:
PS. Whoever thought of the Upkeep from WC3 to stop deathballs is a genius
Wow.. looking back at it.. now that you mention it.. imagine if there was no upkeep.. i would've won every game as human sitting back on my towered up 2 bases massing 100 food worth of spellbreakers with 2/2 upgrades. Would this be a viable soultion for sc2's deathball syndrome if paired with less income from bases?
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The reason I think League of Legends keeps players playing: because every 2-3 weeks something new is released such as a new Champion. Also, every 2-3 weeks there is a balance patch, fixing and making the game more balanced (or completely fucking up a viability of a champion)
People want new things constantly, and it's going to be hard to keep a player base without patches every so often and new units/features every so often. I mean from the Starcraft 2 standpoint we can say new strategies come out, but for a player like me who cannot execute a strategy perfectly, it just does not appeal. Like how damn long does it take to fix a simple unit (carrier?). I mean people can say it took a few years to get the Champion Evelynn to be viable, but at least Riot got around to fixing this champion instead of leaving it in the dust like Blizzard did to the Carrier. (Why even transfer the unit from SC1 then?)
I think Starcraft 2 would be more interesting if they had objectives in the game, such as if you capture a Generator Field, it increases the income you get from minerals. Leading people to fight over the Generator Field instead of first to destroy each others buildings, I mean that is still the main goal of the game, but have other goals of the game as well.
In League of Legends people can turtle all day to protect their base, or people can force team fights over objectives such as Dragon, Baron and even Turrets. I just think it would be interesting to have other things to fight over, I know there is Xel'Naga watch towers to fight over, but adding even more would bring interesting concepts and strategies to the game.
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On October 19 2012 18:21 Tchado wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:59 bokeevboke wrote:
What I hate the most about SC2 and why I left it, is because its very stressful to play it. You build your army and the base for 20 min only to be rolled over in a single attack, thats not how RTS should work. Things die too fast. There is barely any time to react.
For instance, I'd love if the game was smth like this: enemy makes a lot of A and B units and puts a lot of pressure on you, he makes wave after wave attacks and you start feeling that your forces are dwindling and your production can't handle it. You think, a-ha, I need to change my strat and start producing F unit. F unit is a bit immobile, so your enemy starts attacking different locations with C units and so on. And in all the mids of it micro battles, tactics are going on. You don't die in a single hit but rather have a long fight, and the one with better decisions will come on top.
In SC2: enemy makes A,B,C,D unit combo, you make F,D,H,G combo. You meet somewhere on the map and the game is over. Thats fucking SC2 in nutshell. Welcome to Warcraft 3 son.
Still, keep in mind that in WC3 sometimes you die the moment you learn your race matchup (assuming equal skill).
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On October 19 2012 18:18 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 18:14 bokeevboke wrote:On October 19 2012 17:54 Assirra wrote:Then why is he playing it? Might as well just take a normal job. He has a wrong attitude if he thinks he can pursue sc2 pro career. I doubt he'll stay for long. But its hard to blame him, sc2 isn't fun as bw. That's just crap, I played sc1 back in the day and I got bored of it really quickly. I felt as though the units were just clunky and it was a battle against the UI. With sc2 it's about out thinking your opponent and also has a bit of micro involved (Yes, sc2 micro is hard. Doing drops in 3 different locations is hard and splitting your army correctly can be hard to). It's just nostalgic fan boys...
People still play BW now. They play it instead of SC2, because they find it more fun.
Please explain how that is nostalgia (without using a term like 'artificial fun').
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EPT
