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On October 18 2012 19:21 msl wrote:
I don't agree with the assumption that a game needs to be accesible to play for the casual gamer in order to be a relevant ESPORT (as you kids call it).
I have absolutely no interest in playing SC2 multiplayer yet I love watching it.
The reason you need to attract casual players (IMHO) is twofold:
1) Eyeballs
2) Snap up the more competativ minded player for your player base. IMO that's just a given percentage of 1). If you have a game with a large player base a certain percentage will be "Hardcore"
For 1) you don't need the player to play the game (in the sense of multiplayer/ladder), just to understand it. And here BW/SC2 is far superior to DOTA(esque) games. Two armies fighting is easy to understand. My 6-year old understands whats going on when he catches a glimpse of a stream and finds it exiting. (Quote: THE ALIENS ARE KILLING THE MONSTERS! COOL (PvZ obv.)) And in the department of "Eyeball Aquisition" Blizzard can do something:
Make the Single Player better/good/exciting to play!
Provide new missions every now and then.Not in the sense of "Release an expansion" a la HotS, but just give away a free to play SP mission every few weeks.
A great Campaign gets people excited. Free stuff gets them to come back. I agree with a lot of what you say, especially that sc2 is relatively easy to understand for "non playing" spectators. But I don't think the only casual game play should be the campaign. Yes more content is always good for those that like playing the campaign but most people I know never played it, they play/ed some vs the AI and 2v2s etc vs friends. I understand it could be because we might be considered a bit older(30+) and have played many RTS games before(AoE, SC, C&C etc) so when we buy an RTS game we buy it for the "normal game" to play with/against friends or at least the AI.
People like us might be a minority but I doubt it's good for the game if the ONLY draw for so called casual players is single player either.
I can't claim to have a solution though, for example AoE was so different compared to sc2 that it's hard to pick 2-3 things that might have made it more non hardcore friendly. Perhaps multiplayer modes would help so people that like longer 1v1/2v2/3v3 could chose modes with larger maps etc but I'm not sure how much it would help because how sc2 works, like sc2 air units for example.
But I can't see how a couple of different multiplayer modes would be bad for the game either, perhaps that could at least be a start? With different modes different opinions about maps sizes, game length etc wouldn't be a problem since people that like tiny maps could play that mode, people that like 1 hour + games could play the gigantic maps modes and so on.
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On October 17 2012 15:54 LaLuSh wrote:
It's simple really (concerning the part about blizzard, not esports in general).
I'll mostly be winging shit and figures below, but I'm certain it's generally correct.
The reason we don't see all the ever promised features is not because the sc2 development team are assholes, it's more likely because the size of that team is kept in the very lower double digit range. SC2 is a lower priority project and doesn't get to have the programmers it needs. The core team are doing most of the necessary work and planning. Once it's crunch time and once that core team've got everything laid out, they bring in a bunch of people the last month(s), and implement whatever can be implemented in that time (most likely not nearly enough).
This is actually a pretty good post. It seems strange but it often appeared to me that Blizzard was severely... understaffed? They push a lot of things so much back in the waiting list where there isn't even a controversy as why to not just implement it and what they have done before in their older games. Yes, programming requires more time than often imagined but not THAT much for these minor things. Waiting for such a long time to get new features added isn't very "modern". Blizzard was one of the first companies to give continous fresh online experience in WoW to keep their customers happy.
Blizzard has stated before that the push and pull developers from projects to others (e.g. from SC2 WoL to WoW for a long time). This doesn't seem to be the best development practice...(but they know best of course) During the making of WoW, they closed down Blizzard North responsible for their RPGs. The remaining Blizzard now has to balance their workload on all three franchises plus Titan.
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There is probably some very valid points in here but seriously if your trying to talk to blizzard your going about it in completely the wrong way. If i'm blizzard seeing anything on a forum with all caps exclamations about how wrong blizzard is and expletives I would not take it seriously for one second no matter who is writing it and definitely not respond or comment on it to avoid drawing attention to it.
just sayin it doesn't make alot of sense
entertaining to read tho ^^
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On October 18 2012 19:26 Sbrubbles wrote:If there's one thing destiny got right is that, in BW, a good part of the player base stuck to BGH 2v2v2v2 silliness and whatnot, whereas Bnet 2.0 focuses on getting people to play ladder. I miss my BGH days  . Might be nostalgia, but SC2 just didn't seem to recreate that experience for me.
this what made BW fun was the customs.. broodwar was my favourite game ever and it was because of the custom games
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On October 18 2012 21:35 ReMaiN13 wrote:
There is probably some very valid points in here but seriously if your trying to talk to blizzard your going about it in completely the wrong way. If i'm blizzard seeing anything on a forum with all caps exclamations about how wrong blizzard is and expletives I would not take it seriously for one second no matter who is writing it and definitely not respond or comment on it to avoid drawing attention to it.
just sayin it doesn't make alot of sense
entertaining to read tho ^^
From business-stand point this is not true. Customer criticism is the first priority for any company, especially when it comes in such huge numbers. Its definitely gonna take their attention. The problem is though, do they consider SC2 is a still good franchise to invest in it. I don't think so. I think LaLush is right, they already left starcraft 2.
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Lack of support is one thing. I mean they're only implementing these things in HOTS
Multiplayer resume from replay: This would enable an interrupted multiplayer game, such as in an e-sport tournament, to start from a point in the replay.
Global Play: Enabling players to operate accounts outside of their home region
Multilanguage support
Clan/group system
Unranked matchmaking
Multiplayer replay viewing
Sure it might look nice listing all this stuff on the box of your expansion but they should implement these features earlier.
It feels like they put all this stuff on hold so they can make a "must-have" expansion with everything we've been asking for.
When the expansion is finally released a lot of people have already lost interest and moved on to other games.
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I guess Destiny is right...
And i dont see blizzard doing anything about it... In fact i think HOTS will be complete bullshit...
Depressing, but its a depressing game that just wastes your time, i'll most likely quit when HOTS is released...
Blizzard really needs a miracle on this one...
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the thing is:
dota2 and LoL, grow in the eSport scene because Valve and riot make a lot of effort.
sc2 grow in eSports because the community has made the effort. but now the community can't do anything worth, spread the word? after 2 years it's meaningless.
so, here is, the community needs Blizzard doing better features, or bringing tools, making easy the growth of the scene from the community.
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I have played Bw from 1998 to 2010 actively, i have played diablo 1 and diablo 2 for almost as many years.
I have played sc2 from 2010 to 2011 , i have played diablo 3 from mid may 2012 to mid june 2012 1 MONTH ONLY.
Now i switched to LoL and i am happy, already spent 100 eur in skins just to support a great company (Riot) that actually does something about the community and games it owns, blizzard is all about ruining his BRANDS with stupid ideas.
I posted here many posts about Blizzard arrogance and incompetence from 2010 , and now that people are less blinded by HYPE about WOL launch the truth it appears so obvious.
Just look at the units of HOTS , just LOL
I don't know if they wanna target the 6 years old or they are simply crazy.
This is blizzard guys, the games that produce now have simply less longevity. They want you to play less and buy MORE.
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On October 18 2012 21:35 ReMaiN13 wrote:
There is probably some very valid points in here but seriously if your trying to talk to blizzard your going about it in completely the wrong way. If i'm blizzard seeing anything on a forum with all caps exclamations about how wrong blizzard is and expletives I would not take it seriously for one second no matter who is writing it and definitely not respond or comment on it to avoid drawing attention to it.
just sayin it doesn't make alot of sense
entertaining to read tho ^^
If Blizzard want's this game to be a part of the future esports they should read it and take it seriously.
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More ways to get achievements (everyone fucking loves achievements, look at: X-box live, Square-enix's online play, Steam, PSN, origin, WoW, to name a few)
Customizable decals or skins for units (no affect on play, only visual)
No one cares about achievmenets or customization TEH FUCK!
There is no reason to play more than a few online games of Starcraft 2 before putting it down and being done with it.
Thats THE PROBLEM of sc2! There is no motivation at all.
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Steal the spectator mode from Dota 2 for major tournaments. If I could pick the games I wanted to watch in client instead of waiting 45 minutes for a game on stream, I'd pay in a heartbeat,
Bring back tournaments by level (bronze, silver etc) as Warcraft had. They could tie in achievements, custom skins and all the other little doodads as 'prizes'
Get rid of Browder, I don't want to play C&C 5.
Make the UI feel as if you're in a community instead of a ladder monkey.
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ya sc2 not growing becuz blizz blah blah..
valve is growing dota 2; updates every thursday
riot growing LoL; updates every day...
ahhahahahaha, well if it is it is, if it aint it aint
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On October 18 2012 01:27 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 01:02 VanGarde wrote:
It is kind of interesting to see that there are so many people here who hold complete opposite visions of sc2 agree with each other without realizing that their visions are mutually exclusive. There is one group of people who feel that sc2 needs to be more mechanically demanding, allow for more early aggression and that hots is just dumbing it down too much. Most pro-gamers fall into this category. These people think that the failure of sc2 in Korea is because it is not as hard as Broodwar. Then there is the group of people who think that the problem is the opposite that sc2 is not tuned enough to the casual market and that it in fact should be MORE dumbed down. Both of these groups are writing in this thread about how they agree with Destiny, each seemingly thinking that he is talking about their method of reviving sc2.
The dilemma here is that a lot of the people who think Broodwar was a great game, would never play sc2 if it tried to be more like LoL. I belong to this group, in fact in my experience most people in this category feels that the problem with hots is in fact that it is trying to be more like LoL.
Either sc2 tries to be like LoL and Dota and take that market share, in which case we get hots, but then don't complain about how hots is dumbing the game down to attract more casual gamers. im not sure if its what destiny's aiming for but you can have a difficult, competitive game and still have a good casual experience. competitive players dont need their hand held by the interface, theyre going to go into the game. go to the ladder. play the game. all they need is for the actual 1v1 portion of the game to be difficult enough that it can be a legit competition. casual players are the ones who'll get scared off if things arent easy and fun and intuitive since they can just as easily go play the flavor of the month shooter or adventure game that's tailored to them. the problem happens when blizzard tries to do this shitty middle ground where they emphasize competitive play but then try to make it easy enough that non competitive players can do it "well"
Of the many valuable opinions from so many "heavyweights" in the community, I think this distills it down the best. Well said, Mr. Fields.
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LOL is a meme. Do you see what I did there? I'm not sure you did, give it a little longer...
User was warned for this post
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I feel like I have travelled back in time and entered WoW community when I read these comments :D.
"Ohnoes SC2 is dead, HotS will kill the whole franchice!!!" and what happens? 95% of players that own the first game go out and buy the next expansion and are hooked back again for whatever timeframe it takes you to normally get bored to a game 1-12months.
Stop with the I care, but I hate bs. Where the hell that thing even came from. Seems to be most zombies opinnion today.
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2933 Posts
On October 18 2012 23:17 stfouri wrote:
I feel like I have travelled back in time and entered WoW community when I read these comments :D.
"Ohnoes SC2 is dead, HotS will kill the whole franchice!!!" and what happens? 95% of players that own the first game go out and buy the next expansion and are hooked back again for whatever timeframe it takes you to normally get bored to a game 1-12months.
Stop with the I care, but I hate bs. Where the hell that thing even came from. Seems to be most zombies opinnion today.
because TL has devolved down to nothing but bandwagon mentality that takes everything shit-stirrers like Destiny and Catz say as the holy scripture.
oh noes! HOTS is the worst ever (while we're still like 5-10% in the beta) look the success of LoL and DoTA!!!! If the next SC2 stream doesn't have over 1 million viewers I will quit SC2 forever!!!!
while there are some valid point bought up I just found it hilarious that two shit posts from Destiny and Catz were able to garner so much attention in the past 2 days when all the problems bought up have existed since the official release of SC2, and JUST NOW are people complaining? Jeez late to the party much? What a bunch of fucking sensational sheeps, no wonder Tasteless thinks the SC2 communities are fucking jokes.
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On October 18 2012 23:17 stfouri wrote:
I feel like I have travelled back in time and entered WoW community when I read these comments :D.
"Ohnoes SC2 is dead, HotS will kill the whole franchice!!!" and what happens? 95% of players that own the first game go out and buy the next expansion and are hooked back again for whatever timeframe it takes you to normally get bored to a game 1-12months.
Stop with the I care, but I hate bs. Where the hell that thing even came from. Seems to be most zombies opinnion today.
95% of players that own WoL will buy HotS? I don't think so. Most of us are already playing DOTA or LoL. No point buying the same shitty game a second time.
On October 18 2012 23:37 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 23:17 stfouri wrote:
I feel like I have travelled back in time and entered WoW community when I read these comments :D.
"Ohnoes SC2 is dead, HotS will kill the whole franchice!!!" and what happens? 95% of players that own the first game go out and buy the next expansion and are hooked back again for whatever timeframe it takes you to normally get bored to a game 1-12months.
Stop with the I care, but I hate bs. Where the hell that thing even came from. Seems to be most zombies opinnion today. because TL has devolved down to nothing but bandwagon mentality that takes everything shit-stirrers like Destiny and Catz say as the holy scripture. oh noes! HOTS is the worst ever (while we're still like 5-10% in the beta) look the success of LoL and DoTA!!!! If the next SC2 stream doesn't have over 1 million viewers I will quit SC2 forever!!!! while there are some valid point bought up I just found it hilarious that two shit posts from Destiny and Catz were able to garner so much attention in the past 2 days when all the problems bought up have existed since the official release of SC2, and JUST NOW are people complaining? Jeez late to the party much? What a bunch of fucking sensational sheeps, no wonder Tasteless thinks the SC2 communities are fucking jokes.
These problems have existed since the release of SC2, you're right. Complaints have been made all the time since then; it's not just now. I'm sure you're familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back".
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On October 18 2012 21:33 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:54 LaLuSh wrote:
It's simple really (concerning the part about blizzard, not esports in general).
I'll mostly be winging shit and figures below, but I'm certain it's generally correct.
The reason we don't see all the ever promised features is not because the sc2 development team are assholes, it's more likely because the size of that team is kept in the very lower double digit range. SC2 is a lower priority project and doesn't get to have the programmers it needs. The core team are doing most of the necessary work and planning. Once it's crunch time and once that core team've got everything laid out, they bring in a bunch of people the last month(s), and implement whatever can be implemented in that time (most likely not nearly enough).
This is actually a pretty good post. It seems strange but it often appeared to me that Blizzard was severely... understaffed? They push a lot of things so much back in the waiting list where there isn't even a controversy as why to not just implement it and what they have done before in their older games. Yes, programming requires more time than often imagined but not THAT much for these minor things. Waiting for such a long time to get new features added isn't very "modern". Blizzard was one of the first companies to give continous fresh online experience in WoW to keep their customers happy. Blizzard has stated before that the push and pull developers from projects to others (e.g. from SC2 WoL to WoW for a long time). This doesn't seem to be the best development practice...(but they know best of course) During the making of WoW, they closed down Blizzard North responsible for their RPGs. The remaining Blizzard now has to balance their workload on all three franchises plus Titan.
Aren't they basically making shittons of money from WoW subs? They probably don't want to put THAT much focus on a scene that is very passionate and involved, but not that big in the end?
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On October 18 2012 18:57 Goldfish wrote:
A lot of people have been making comparisons with DotA / LoL to SC2.
The problem with that it's not SC2, it's the RTS genre. DotA and LoL are more casual friendly games and is easier to get into, easier to play, and has a lot more variety.
RTS genre is general is dying (well not dying but it's probably not going to be top 1 competitive game genre these days anymore, sadly). BW thrived because it had little competition (there wasn't Dota or LoL or MMOs back then).
Also about the topic of making SC2 easier to get into or so.
I'd argue that's nearly impossible (with competition that is) without changing the genre itself. Warcraft III is arguably easier to get into, more casual, and more fun to play casually than SC2 but yet it died off (to guess what, Dota) really just after 2 years or so after The Frozen Throne was released.
Bullshit, BW came out at the golden age of RTS gaming. Where were you at the days of CnCs, AoE, AoM, and SupCom?
It had more competition than ever.
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