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On October 17 2012 20:40 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 20:37 iceman. wrote:
Judging from the posts in this thread the title could be "Why Starcraft 2 sucks".
Destiny makes valid points. The game isn't suited for casuals with ladder anxiety and will not be nearly as popular as dota 2 or LoL, I think that's been clear for some time and I can accept that. I'm happy with sc2 and it's inferior viewer numbers and what not, because I personally think it's the superior game and there are still more than enough tournaments to follow. True, the scene will likely grow smaller, with smaller tournaments and fewer spectators, but no way in hell will the game die off in a few years time. I mean sure, it would be nice if SC2 was "huge" like LoL, but to me having followed WC3 into it's death SC2 is already way bigger than I could have imagined.
To those of you just mindlessly hating (or simply not enjoying) the game, including pro gamers, just stop playing and get on with your fucking lives if you haven't already. The point isn't the game itself. Destiny doesn't talk about the game, he talks about its interface, the way it's presented, the relationship between Blizzard the community, and the focus on the development of the game.
your point would be more valid if destiny didn't also make an entire post on his website about how starcraft 2 is a broken game and blahblah brood war is better. i don't think he enjoys sc2 at all. it just feels like all of the people in this thread that agree with this are pulling for strings, trying to find reasons why their sc interest is dwindling. trying to find a reason why they stopped watching gom gradually or feel that horribly dull feeling as you watch your workers mine in the first minutes of the game. like the originally quoted post, they don't realize they should move on, so this shit comes out. honestly, blizzard doesn't do this shit because they don't have to. do you honestly think sc would ever pull in as many numbers as a game like LoL? it's a hard fucking game and it's 1v1. LoL is a team game where the skill cap is arguably a lot lower. LoL might be huge but do you think it holds the same prestige as SC? hell fucking no it doesn't. and furthermore who the FUCK CARES which game has more viewers, it's esports viewers, not just "LoL or SC viewers". you think as many people watch football as soccer in the US? no, but the platform for the media still exists for both. fucking stephano gets 8-10k viewers every single time he streams. WCS EU pulled 100k viewers or so with no koreans? oh, but because LoL has something like 1mil viewers, sc is dying suddenly? spoiler alert: casual games attract casual gamers...WoW has about 20mil subscribers/players. people are lazy and they will always be attracted to the easier path. i mean even fucking HoN has a $300,000 tour coming up, you think they pull as many numbers as sc does? rofl ya ok. sc has a major tourney nearly every single day, does LoL have that? if not, why do you think LoL tourneys pull such big numbers? imagine the OSL was the only league in SC2 and was over a year...kind of like how Riot does it for LoL...I'm pretty sure they'd easily pull a ton of viewers if it was advertised properly...but as of right now we get a steady stream of 50-150k viewers, on the daily. i'd say that's pretty fucking solid. people need to stop justifying their own lost interest in the game as blizz's fault.
edit: sorry if my points aren't clear at all, just waking up and ranting on a keyboard don't mix.
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On October 17 2012 20:53 Cuce wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 20:37 RTSDealer wrote:On October 17 2012 19:13 F1rstAssau1t wrote:On October 17 2012 14:37 Xxio wrote:
Blizzard should have given Brood War a facelift instead of making StarCraft 2. This!!! SC2 is just going down. Wouldn't mind this. Starcraft with better graphics and improved UI and features. Dota 2 is basically the same as DotA in terms of game play. Nobody's complaining. Millions play it. game says 71k players online atm surely not millions are playing it. unless valve takes back on their word and make it f2p I doubt millions will play it. It really easy to get a beta key.
Why would they go back on their word, the game will definitely be F2P. Also, at peak EU times I've seen over 140k people playing, and that's just evening EU and obviously not every player plays it every night. Millions might well be an overstatement, but it's just a beta.
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On October 17 2012 20:56 windzor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 20:52 Tobberoth wrote:On October 17 2012 20:50 bokeevboke wrote:
It may sound a little dreamish, but I was always wondering if its possible for us to create an open-source starcraft remake project. I think this is the only way to make a game into esports. The game should belong to community and only community should decide how to make it. Pretty sure Blizzard would be able to shut it down pretty hard, unless it was made considerably different. In a sense though, it already exists as SC2:BW. No. The only thing Blizzard has copyright of, is the plot, sound and artwork. As it's a multiplayer game, the plot is not used. Sound and artwork just had to be remade, aswell as some unit names properly have to be remade to not infringe the starcraft universe copyright. Like Marine is okay, zergling is not... See dota2 for reference. The mechanics and gameplay is 100% possible to copy in a legal way. Just look at OpenTTD. You don't even have to remake the sound and artwork, if people reuse it from the original game. Again see OpenTTD for reference.
normally i would laugh this off but i am positive there are far more qualified and competent people in the community who are capable of putting something like this together than blizzard has working for them. but it does beg the question that if we are just going to remake brood war, why not just play brood war?
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On October 17 2012 21:01 gh0stsquall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 20:40 Teoita wrote:On October 17 2012 20:37 iceman. wrote:
Judging from the posts in this thread the title could be "Why Starcraft 2 sucks".
Destiny makes valid points. The game isn't suited for casuals with ladder anxiety and will not be nearly as popular as dota 2 or LoL, I think that's been clear for some time and I can accept that. I'm happy with sc2 and it's inferior viewer numbers and what not, because I personally think it's the superior game and there are still more than enough tournaments to follow. True, the scene will likely grow smaller, with smaller tournaments and fewer spectators, but no way in hell will the game die off in a few years time. I mean sure, it would be nice if SC2 was "huge" like LoL, but to me having followed WC3 into it's death SC2 is already way bigger than I could have imagined.
To those of you just mindlessly hating (or simply not enjoying) the game, including pro gamers, just stop playing and get on with your fucking lives if you haven't already. The point isn't the game itself. Destiny doesn't talk about the game, he talks about its interface, the way it's presented, the relationship between Blizzard the community, and the focus on the development of the game. your point would be more valid if destiny didn't also make an entire post on his website about how starcraft 2 is a broken game and blahblah brood war is better. i don't think he enjoys sc2 at all. it just feels like all of the people in this thread that agree with this are pulling for strings, trying to find reasons why their sc interest is dwindling. trying to find a reason why they stopped watching gom gradually or feel that horribly dull feeling as you watch your workers mine in the first minutes of the game. like the originally quoted post, they don't realize they should move on, so this shit comes out. honestly, blizzard doesn't do this shit because they don't have to. do you honestly think sc would ever pull in as many numbers as a game like LoL? it's a hard fucking game and it's 1v1. LoL is a team game where the skill cap is arguably a lot lower. LoL might be huge but do you think it holds the same prestige as SC? hell fucking no it doesn't. and furthermore who the FUCK CARES which game has more viewers, it's esports viewers, not just "LoL or SC viewers". you think as many people watch football as soccer in the US? no, but the platform for the media still exists for both. fucking stephano gets 8-10k viewers every single time he streams. WCS EU pulled 100k viewers or so with no koreans? oh, but because LoL has something like 1mil viewers, sc is dying suddenly? spoiler alert: casual games attract casual gamers...WoW has about 20mil subscribers/players. people are lazy and they will always be attracted to the easier path. i mean even fucking HoN has a $300,000 tour coming up, you think they pull as many numbers as sc does? rofl ya ok. sc has a major tourney nearly every single day, does LoL have that? if not, why do you think LoL tourneys pull such big numbers? imagine the OSL was the only league in SC2 and was over a year...kind of like how Riot does it for LoL...I'm pretty sure they'd easily pull a ton of viewers if it was advertised properly...but as of right now we get a steady stream of 50-150k viewers, on the daily. i'd say that's pretty fucking solid. people need to stop justifying their own lost interest in the game as blizz's fault. edit: sorry if my points aren't clear at all, just waking up and ranting on a keyboard don't mix.
Your post fails to acknowledge the fact that SC2 is nothing compared to what BW was in Korea despite being a much easier game. BW was by far the most mechanically demanding Esports of all time and yet achieved the most fervent crowds, largest live audiences and most TV viewers. Your post contradicts itself within the first few sentences...
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SC2 needs more micro mechanics added to it like marines. Its a carrot on a stick, and it'll make people want to improve their game. Also, it provides levels of improvement that are noticeable and the average viewer can appreciate true displays of micro. Units like the colossus, broodlord, infestor, etc need to go as they take away from the interesting aspect of RTS.
SC2 is just lacking in depth. While it may seem 'deep', comparatively to a beast like broodwar it is nothing. I fondly remember practicing muta micro, vulture/scv bugging over minerals, wraith micro, the list goes on. SC2 needs more complex mechanics like this, that transcend the basic unit and give it near limitless potential which is entirely dependent upon the user. We just need less 1a of bioballs, colossus/stalker armies, roach/infestors, etc. These aren't fun mechanics and they aren't interesting to watch.
I'd personally like to see the pace of the game slowed down quite a bit.
In short, I'd want broodwar back.
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On October 17 2012 21:03 multiversed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 20:56 windzor wrote:On October 17 2012 20:52 Tobberoth wrote:On October 17 2012 20:50 bokeevboke wrote:
It may sound a little dreamish, but I was always wondering if its possible for us to create an open-source starcraft remake project. I think this is the only way to make a game into esports. The game should belong to community and only community should decide how to make it. Pretty sure Blizzard would be able to shut it down pretty hard, unless it was made considerably different. In a sense though, it already exists as SC2:BW. No. The only thing Blizzard has copyright of, is the plot, sound and artwork. As it's a multiplayer game, the plot is not used. Sound and artwork just had to be remade, aswell as some unit names properly have to be remade to not infringe the starcraft universe copyright. Like Marine is okay, zergling is not... See dota2 for reference. The mechanics and gameplay is 100% possible to copy in a legal way. Just look at OpenTTD. You don't even have to remake the sound and artwork, if people reuse it from the original game. Again see OpenTTD for reference. normally i would laugh this off but i am positive there are far more qualified and competent people in the community who are capable of putting something like this together than blizzard has working for them. but it does beg the question that if we are just going to remake brood war, why not just play brood war?
Not saying this should be done, just discussing that you can if you want. IMO yes it is a stupid idea to remake BW.
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On October 17 2012 21:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 21:01 gh0stsquall wrote:On October 17 2012 20:40 Teoita wrote:On October 17 2012 20:37 iceman. wrote:
Judging from the posts in this thread the title could be "Why Starcraft 2 sucks".
Destiny makes valid points. The game isn't suited for casuals with ladder anxiety and will not be nearly as popular as dota 2 or LoL, I think that's been clear for some time and I can accept that. I'm happy with sc2 and it's inferior viewer numbers and what not, because I personally think it's the superior game and there are still more than enough tournaments to follow. True, the scene will likely grow smaller, with smaller tournaments and fewer spectators, but no way in hell will the game die off in a few years time. I mean sure, it would be nice if SC2 was "huge" like LoL, but to me having followed WC3 into it's death SC2 is already way bigger than I could have imagined.
To those of you just mindlessly hating (or simply not enjoying) the game, including pro gamers, just stop playing and get on with your fucking lives if you haven't already. The point isn't the game itself. Destiny doesn't talk about the game, he talks about its interface, the way it's presented, the relationship between Blizzard the community, and the focus on the development of the game. your point would be more valid if destiny didn't also make an entire post on his website about how starcraft 2 is a broken game and blahblah brood war is better. i don't think he enjoys sc2 at all. it just feels like all of the people in this thread that agree with this are pulling for strings, trying to find reasons why their sc interest is dwindling. trying to find a reason why they stopped watching gom gradually or feel that horribly dull feeling as you watch your workers mine in the first minutes of the game. like the originally quoted post, they don't realize they should move on, so this shit comes out. honestly, blizzard doesn't do this shit because they don't have to. do you honestly think sc would ever pull in as many numbers as a game like LoL? it's a hard fucking game and it's 1v1. LoL is a team game where the skill cap is arguably a lot lower. LoL might be huge but do you think it holds the same prestige as SC? hell fucking no it doesn't. and furthermore who the FUCK CARES which game has more viewers, it's esports viewers, not just "LoL or SC viewers". you think as many people watch football as soccer in the US? no, but the platform for the media still exists for both. fucking stephano gets 8-10k viewers every single time he streams. WCS EU pulled 100k viewers or so with no koreans? oh, but because LoL has something like 1mil viewers, sc is dying suddenly? spoiler alert: casual games attract casual gamers...WoW has about 20mil subscribers/players. people are lazy and they will always be attracted to the easier path. i mean even fucking HoN has a $300,000 tour coming up, you think they pull as many numbers as sc does? rofl ya ok. sc has a major tourney nearly every single day, does LoL have that? if not, why do you think LoL tourneys pull such big numbers? imagine the OSL was the only league in SC2 and was over a year...kind of like how Riot does it for LoL...I'm pretty sure they'd easily pull a ton of viewers if it was advertised properly...but as of right now we get a steady stream of 50-150k viewers, on the daily. i'd say that's pretty fucking solid. people need to stop justifying their own lost interest in the game as blizz's fault. edit: sorry if my points aren't clear at all, just waking up and ranting on a keyboard don't mix. Your post fails to acknowledge the fact that SC2 is nothing compared to what BW was in Korea despite being a much easier game. BW was by far the most mechanically demanding Esports of all time and yet achieved the most fervent crowds, largest live audiences and most TV viewers. Your post contradicts itself within the first few sentences...
trust me, i understand brood war is the superior game and it pulled bigger crowds in korea. i'm talking in the western scene.
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I really doubt one can make a hd 3d engine that can simiulate both briliance and flaws of broodwar engine.
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On October 17 2012 21:07 Masq wrote:
SC2 needs more micro mechanics added to it like marines. Its a carrot on a stick, and it'll make people want to improve their game. Also, it provides levels of improvement that are noticeable and the average viewer can appreciate true displays of micro. Units like the colossus, broodlord, infestor, etc need to go as they take away from the interesting aspect of RTS.
SC2 is just lacking in depth. While it may seem 'deep', comparatively to a beast like broodwar it is nothing. I fondly remember practicing muta micro, vulture/scv bugging over minerals, wraith micro, the list goes on. SC2 needs more complex mechanics like this, that transcend the basic unit and give it near limitless potential which is entirely dependent upon the user. We just need less 1a of bioballs, colossus/stalker armies, roach/infestors, etc. These aren't fun mechanics and they aren't interesting to watch.
I'd personally like to see the pace of the game slowed down quite a bit.
In short, I'd want broodwar back.
No, SC2 does not need more micro mechanics. A game does not become deeper or more importantly better just because every unit has 1-3 Spells. SC2 needs a basic rework of many units characteristics and plain removal of some.
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#SaveHOTS In-client stream viewing. Region selection. Replays w/friends. Auto-tournaments. Race/map stats. Name change or multi. accnts. LAN
this was probably one of the best tweets on this topic (from SoBeDragon @sobedragon0 )
link -->
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It's very alarming to see LoL pulling in 20x the audience of SC2. And looking at HOTS, I fear the worst.
This is what I think would save the game and break in casuals:
1) double (at least) the HP of all units so that the army you spent 15 mins building up doesn't evaporate to AOE in 6 seconds. This would mean you could actually retreat instead of rolling the dice on your ball vs. their ball.
2) severely weaken early cheese builds (might be fixed by #1). This is the source of much ladder frustration and pretty much ruins 3v3 and 4v4 for people.
3) HOTS needs at least 6-10 *additional* new units/attacks/spells/functions. It doesn't feel like they've overhauled the game enough.
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I honestly don't think SC2 needs Blizzard intervention to succeed.
On the topic of Stagnation, I think streamers are partially to blame. There is WAY too much SC2 content available at any time of the day. So much so that it literally kills hype for big events. For me, there's very little difference in watching Stephano play vs TLO on his stream vs in a tournament. Furthermore, there seems to be endless amounts of show matches, small events, and other events filling up the sidebar every day. Personally, it's as if I drove a honda civic to work everyday and every few weeks I get to drive a honda civic SI.. yayy...
HOTS will be popular to begin with. Streaming the beta didn't last for a few reasons. The pros were playing against abnormally bad players, and they stopped to practice WOL within a few days. The fact that there was a bump in viewers as a result of HOTS shows there will be interest. I'm desperately hoping HOTS brings back creativity and unique games, because players right now are too afraid to experiment. SC2 kept growing in viewership because the games were fresh, patches kept coming in, players were inventing new styles regularly, and foreigners vs koreans was a rarity. However, now it's almost impossible to see games that aren't played standard.
TL;DR: Mass streaming and events kills big hype for tournaments and SC2 meta game stagnated horribly.
EDIT: Another big reason people aren't watching SC2 is because they've stopped playing SC2. A typical ladder system from the original bnet keeps players motivated, the same cannot be said the status quo.
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On October 17 2012 21:10 gh0stsquall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 21:06 SupLilSon wrote:On October 17 2012 21:01 gh0stsquall wrote:On October 17 2012 20:40 Teoita wrote:On October 17 2012 20:37 iceman. wrote:
Judging from the posts in this thread the title could be "Why Starcraft 2 sucks".
Destiny makes valid points. The game isn't suited for casuals with ladder anxiety and will not be nearly as popular as dota 2 or LoL, I think that's been clear for some time and I can accept that. I'm happy with sc2 and it's inferior viewer numbers and what not, because I personally think it's the superior game and there are still more than enough tournaments to follow. True, the scene will likely grow smaller, with smaller tournaments and fewer spectators, but no way in hell will the game die off in a few years time. I mean sure, it would be nice if SC2 was "huge" like LoL, but to me having followed WC3 into it's death SC2 is already way bigger than I could have imagined.
To those of you just mindlessly hating (or simply not enjoying) the game, including pro gamers, just stop playing and get on with your fucking lives if you haven't already. The point isn't the game itself. Destiny doesn't talk about the game, he talks about its interface, the way it's presented, the relationship between Blizzard the community, and the focus on the development of the game. your point would be more valid if destiny didn't also make an entire post on his website about how starcraft 2 is a broken game and blahblah brood war is better. i don't think he enjoys sc2 at all. it just feels like all of the people in this thread that agree with this are pulling for strings, trying to find reasons why their sc interest is dwindling. trying to find a reason why they stopped watching gom gradually or feel that horribly dull feeling as you watch your workers mine in the first minutes of the game. like the originally quoted post, they don't realize they should move on, so this shit comes out. honestly, blizzard doesn't do this shit because they don't have to. do you honestly think sc would ever pull in as many numbers as a game like LoL? it's a hard fucking game and it's 1v1. LoL is a team game where the skill cap is arguably a lot lower. LoL might be huge but do you think it holds the same prestige as SC? hell fucking no it doesn't. and furthermore who the FUCK CARES which game has more viewers, it's esports viewers, not just "LoL or SC viewers". you think as many people watch football as soccer in the US? no, but the platform for the media still exists for both. fucking stephano gets 8-10k viewers every single time he streams. WCS EU pulled 100k viewers or so with no koreans? oh, but because LoL has something like 1mil viewers, sc is dying suddenly? spoiler alert: casual games attract casual gamers...WoW has about 20mil subscribers/players. people are lazy and they will always be attracted to the easier path. i mean even fucking HoN has a $300,000 tour coming up, you think they pull as many numbers as sc does? rofl ya ok. sc has a major tourney nearly every single day, does LoL have that? if not, why do you think LoL tourneys pull such big numbers? imagine the OSL was the only league in SC2 and was over a year...kind of like how Riot does it for LoL...I'm pretty sure they'd easily pull a ton of viewers if it was advertised properly...but as of right now we get a steady stream of 50-150k viewers, on the daily. i'd say that's pretty fucking solid. people need to stop justifying their own lost interest in the game as blizz's fault. edit: sorry if my points aren't clear at all, just waking up and ranting on a keyboard don't mix. Your post fails to acknowledge the fact that SC2 is nothing compared to what BW was in Korea despite being a much easier game. BW was by far the most mechanically demanding Esports of all time and yet achieved the most fervent crowds, largest live audiences and most TV viewers. Your post contradicts itself within the first few sentences... trust me, i understand brood war is the superior game and it pulled bigger crowds in korea. i'm talking in the western scene.
Like do you realize where the huge foreign scene came from though? It's people who played BW as children, we played the UMS games Destiny was mentioning. I spent countless nights staying up till 4 AM playing bunker wars, evolves and ZC with my friends. It's the reason we all jumped on SC2 when it first came out. It's the reason 90% of them quit within a month of release. BW might not have been as popular in terms of Esports for foreigners, but that had to do more with the culture and society rather than the popularity of the game itself. No matter how popular any game was back then, it wasn't getting on TV and there wasn't easily accessibly internet for streams. SC2 dumbed the game down so it's more casual friendly in a way but they completely ignored the UMS aspect which was the true magnet for casuals. In essence SC2 failed on both fronts where BW succeeded.
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On October 17 2012 20:40 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 20:31 gh0stsquall wrote:
HOTS reinvigorated my interest in the game. Played 5k games of WoL, can honestly say I've missed like 2-5 days of GSL since open season 1 max, probably seen every single foreign tournament. It wasn't growing dull for me, I still played at least 5-10 games a day and usually always have a stream on. Now when I watch WoL I feel like the game is incomplete and can't wait to see where it evolves via HOTS. I'm sick of these people trying to tell me how I feel about SC2. Well sc2 is still the second best rts multiplayer to be released, so its fine if you are really into the game. inb4 wc3 fanboys get mad about that though :D
Flaming mackerels!! You did not just said WC3 < SC2!? 
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On October 17 2012 21:15 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 21:10 gh0stsquall wrote:On October 17 2012 21:06 SupLilSon wrote:On October 17 2012 21:01 gh0stsquall wrote:On October 17 2012 20:40 Teoita wrote:On October 17 2012 20:37 iceman. wrote:
Judging from the posts in this thread the title could be "Why Starcraft 2 sucks".
Destiny makes valid points. The game isn't suited for casuals with ladder anxiety and will not be nearly as popular as dota 2 or LoL, I think that's been clear for some time and I can accept that. I'm happy with sc2 and it's inferior viewer numbers and what not, because I personally think it's the superior game and there are still more than enough tournaments to follow. True, the scene will likely grow smaller, with smaller tournaments and fewer spectators, but no way in hell will the game die off in a few years time. I mean sure, it would be nice if SC2 was "huge" like LoL, but to me having followed WC3 into it's death SC2 is already way bigger than I could have imagined.
To those of you just mindlessly hating (or simply not enjoying) the game, including pro gamers, just stop playing and get on with your fucking lives if you haven't already. The point isn't the game itself. Destiny doesn't talk about the game, he talks about its interface, the way it's presented, the relationship between Blizzard the community, and the focus on the development of the game. your point would be more valid if destiny didn't also make an entire post on his website about how starcraft 2 is a broken game and blahblah brood war is better. i don't think he enjoys sc2 at all. it just feels like all of the people in this thread that agree with this are pulling for strings, trying to find reasons why their sc interest is dwindling. trying to find a reason why they stopped watching gom gradually or feel that horribly dull feeling as you watch your workers mine in the first minutes of the game. like the originally quoted post, they don't realize they should move on, so this shit comes out. honestly, blizzard doesn't do this shit because they don't have to. do you honestly think sc would ever pull in as many numbers as a game like LoL? it's a hard fucking game and it's 1v1. LoL is a team game where the skill cap is arguably a lot lower. LoL might be huge but do you think it holds the same prestige as SC? hell fucking no it doesn't. and furthermore who the FUCK CARES which game has more viewers, it's esports viewers, not just "LoL or SC viewers". you think as many people watch football as soccer in the US? no, but the platform for the media still exists for both. fucking stephano gets 8-10k viewers every single time he streams. WCS EU pulled 100k viewers or so with no koreans? oh, but because LoL has something like 1mil viewers, sc is dying suddenly? spoiler alert: casual games attract casual gamers...WoW has about 20mil subscribers/players. people are lazy and they will always be attracted to the easier path. i mean even fucking HoN has a $300,000 tour coming up, you think they pull as many numbers as sc does? rofl ya ok. sc has a major tourney nearly every single day, does LoL have that? if not, why do you think LoL tourneys pull such big numbers? imagine the OSL was the only league in SC2 and was over a year...kind of like how Riot does it for LoL...I'm pretty sure they'd easily pull a ton of viewers if it was advertised properly...but as of right now we get a steady stream of 50-150k viewers, on the daily. i'd say that's pretty fucking solid. people need to stop justifying their own lost interest in the game as blizz's fault. edit: sorry if my points aren't clear at all, just waking up and ranting on a keyboard don't mix. Your post fails to acknowledge the fact that SC2 is nothing compared to what BW was in Korea despite being a much easier game. BW was by far the most mechanically demanding Esports of all time and yet achieved the most fervent crowds, largest live audiences and most TV viewers. Your post contradicts itself within the first few sentences... trust me, i understand brood war is the superior game and it pulled bigger crowds in korea. i'm talking in the western scene. Like do you realize where the huge foreign scene came from though? It's people who played BW as children, we played the UMS games Destiny was mentioning. I spent countless nights staying up till 4 AM playing bunker wars, evolves and ZC with my friends. It's the reason we all jumped on SC2 when it first came out. It's the reason 90% of them quit within a month of release. BW might not have been as popular in terms of Esports for foreigners, but that had to do more with the culture and society rather than the popularity of the game itself. No matter how popular any game was back then, it wasn't getting on TV and there wasn't easily accessibly internet for streams. SC2 dumbed the game down so it's more casual friendly in a way but they completely ignored the UMS aspect which was the true magnet for casuals. In essence SC2 failed on both fronts where BW succeeded.
really? every single player that bought sc2 at release came from brood war?
show me a statistic that proves it because i got into SC2 when C&C4 flopped. clearly you haven't seen below the TL scene where people could give a rats ass about brood war.
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On October 17 2012 21:14 jdsowa wrote:
It's very alarming to see LoL pulling in 20x the audience of SC2. And looking at HOTS, I fear the worst.
This is what I think would save the game and break in casuals:
1) double (at least) the HP of all units so that the army you spent 15 mins building up doesn't evaporate to AOE in 6 seconds. This would mean you could actually retreat instead of rolling the dice on your ball vs. their ball.
2) severely weaken early cheese builds (might be fixed by #1). This is the source of much ladder frustration and pretty much ruins 3v3 and 4v4 for people.
3) HOTS needs at least 6-10 *additional* new units/attacks/spells/functions. It doesn't feel like they've overhauled the game enough.
Wow...
If anything units in SC2 have to much HP.
If anything cheese gets to weak with Hots and this won't solve a thing for casuals anyway, they would just get steamrolled 5 minutes later.
A higher amount of Units does not make the game better.
What it needs is something that makes you want to log in aside from playing 1on1. WC3 and SC/BW had this with their custom games and "community" feeling, SC2 basically doesn't or in worse form.
Btw: Bringing up how much more succesfull SC2 is in the western scene is stupid.
When BW came around I was on a 128k modem and that was hot shit in my town (and probably most others because Switzerland is kind a good when it comes to this). Youtube did not exist, live streaming was not possible, there was just the Bnet and Lans. Your basically comparing the 1950ies viewer numbers, when not everyone had a TV, of a sport event to the ones nowadays.
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i hate to break it to some of you but as it stands nothing is changing in HotS. timings got stronger. nothing got more dynamic.
i don't know how it looks from the outside but the reality is that it's the same game with even more trash.
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On October 17 2012 20:07 tyner wrote:
Kinda funny how Destiny will cite everything but his stream numbers lul
Can you specify this? Is there a positive or negative tendency in his stream numbers? Has he recently argued discomfort over his stream numbers?
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On October 17 2012 21:17 gh0stsquall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 21:15 SupLilSon wrote:On October 17 2012 21:10 gh0stsquall wrote:On October 17 2012 21:06 SupLilSon wrote:On October 17 2012 21:01 gh0stsquall wrote:On October 17 2012 20:40 Teoita wrote:On October 17 2012 20:37 iceman. wrote:
Judging from the posts in this thread the title could be "Why Starcraft 2 sucks".
Destiny makes valid points. The game isn't suited for casuals with ladder anxiety and will not be nearly as popular as dota 2 or LoL, I think that's been clear for some time and I can accept that. I'm happy with sc2 and it's inferior viewer numbers and what not, because I personally think it's the superior game and there are still more than enough tournaments to follow. True, the scene will likely grow smaller, with smaller tournaments and fewer spectators, but no way in hell will the game die off in a few years time. I mean sure, it would be nice if SC2 was "huge" like LoL, but to me having followed WC3 into it's death SC2 is already way bigger than I could have imagined.
To those of you just mindlessly hating (or simply not enjoying) the game, including pro gamers, just stop playing and get on with your fucking lives if you haven't already. The point isn't the game itself. Destiny doesn't talk about the game, he talks about its interface, the way it's presented, the relationship between Blizzard the community, and the focus on the development of the game. your point would be more valid if destiny didn't also make an entire post on his website about how starcraft 2 is a broken game and blahblah brood war is better. i don't think he enjoys sc2 at all. it just feels like all of the people in this thread that agree with this are pulling for strings, trying to find reasons why their sc interest is dwindling. trying to find a reason why they stopped watching gom gradually or feel that horribly dull feeling as you watch your workers mine in the first minutes of the game. like the originally quoted post, they don't realize they should move on, so this shit comes out. honestly, blizzard doesn't do this shit because they don't have to. do you honestly think sc would ever pull in as many numbers as a game like LoL? it's a hard fucking game and it's 1v1. LoL is a team game where the skill cap is arguably a lot lower. LoL might be huge but do you think it holds the same prestige as SC? hell fucking no it doesn't. and furthermore who the FUCK CARES which game has more viewers, it's esports viewers, not just "LoL or SC viewers". you think as many people watch football as soccer in the US? no, but the platform for the media still exists for both. fucking stephano gets 8-10k viewers every single time he streams. WCS EU pulled 100k viewers or so with no koreans? oh, but because LoL has something like 1mil viewers, sc is dying suddenly? spoiler alert: casual games attract casual gamers...WoW has about 20mil subscribers/players. people are lazy and they will always be attracted to the easier path. i mean even fucking HoN has a $300,000 tour coming up, you think they pull as many numbers as sc does? rofl ya ok. sc has a major tourney nearly every single day, does LoL have that? if not, why do you think LoL tourneys pull such big numbers? imagine the OSL was the only league in SC2 and was over a year...kind of like how Riot does it for LoL...I'm pretty sure they'd easily pull a ton of viewers if it was advertised properly...but as of right now we get a steady stream of 50-150k viewers, on the daily. i'd say that's pretty fucking solid. people need to stop justifying their own lost interest in the game as blizz's fault. edit: sorry if my points aren't clear at all, just waking up and ranting on a keyboard don't mix. Your post fails to acknowledge the fact that SC2 is nothing compared to what BW was in Korea despite being a much easier game. BW was by far the most mechanically demanding Esports of all time and yet achieved the most fervent crowds, largest live audiences and most TV viewers. Your post contradicts itself within the first few sentences... trust me, i understand brood war is the superior game and it pulled bigger crowds in korea. i'm talking in the western scene. Like do you realize where the huge foreign scene came from though? It's people who played BW as children, we played the UMS games Destiny was mentioning. I spent countless nights staying up till 4 AM playing bunker wars, evolves and ZC with my friends. It's the reason we all jumped on SC2 when it first came out. It's the reason 90% of them quit within a month of release. BW might not have been as popular in terms of Esports for foreigners, but that had to do more with the culture and society rather than the popularity of the game itself. No matter how popular any game was back then, it wasn't getting on TV and there wasn't easily accessibly internet for streams. SC2 dumbed the game down so it's more casual friendly in a way but they completely ignored the UMS aspect which was the true magnet for casuals. In essence SC2 failed on both fronts where BW succeeded. really? every single player that bought sc2 at release came from brood war? show me a statistic that proves it because i got into SC2 when C&C4 flopped. clearly you haven't seen below the TL scene where people could give a rats ass about brood war.
I didn't say every player came from Broodwar, but many of us played BW extensively at some point in our lives even if we werent active at the time of SC2 release. Personally I wasn't even interested in SC2 because of DoW and DOTA but the instant I saw my friends playing 4v4 the nostalgia of BW forced me to buy SC2 on the spot. Almost everyone who gamed throughout the 90s had experience with SC and BW.
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Well, we're fucked friends.
Seems like the end of 2012 is inspiring more than the Maya.
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EPT
