|
On October 17 2012 17:51 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:40 Beyonder wrote:
I do really wonder where Blizzard failed. Did they fail because they did not address to the masses (where LoL, for example, does)? Or did Blizzard fail by not focusing on the game at the highest level (progaming)? It really feels that their focus is somewhere in between, which is the problem.
THIS. This man has just nailed it. Starcraft 2 will not grow if it becomes more casual, it needs to be the hardcore E-sport, and right now Brood War still is. Yes, limited unit selection and manually clicking on production structures are tedious, but it differenciates the greatest player of all from the great ones. Flash would never be OSL champion and then fall into "code A" 2 seasons later. Only in SC2, where the skill ceilling is lower, that this happens.
What about MVP?
But seriously, people hoping to get a new BW really need to just go play BW. You will *never* again have a (popular) RTS that has the UI of BW - the only reason BW had the UI it did is that you couldn't do it any better... it was a "flaw" basically, but yes, it helped make the game awesome (interestingly, strafe/circle jumping in quake was originally a bug and that is also what defined quality competitive FPS games ever since).
However, I think that the UI doesn't necessarily make the game easy... Sc2 isn't really an easy game, but it's hard in a different way. You still have pretty clear skill differences even among top players. I mean, look at every single one of the foreign BW "pros". If the game was that easy, why aren't they crushing face? To say that it's super luck-based is also stupid because you have a lot of these super consistent players. And people saying that Flash/Jaedong were unbeatable in BW obviously never watched/played any BW and are just accepting the folklore. They were the best players, but they still lost sometimes, and it wasn't like every 2 years or something...
In my opinion, the race mechanics introduced in Sc2 made the game worse than it could have been more than the simplified and more powerful UI... I'm talking about MULE/inject/warpgate/forcefield/colossi/mothership/mass infestor/roach and things of that nature, so not really just mechanics, but also some units and how they function in a game. However, I actually felt the game was getting a lot better for a long time, up until recently...
We've been getting into these "super late game" situations where both players are maxed and have a huge bank, and these games are not just boring to watch but they are also extremely stupid. The problem is that it's pretty hard to avoid them if you want to play "optimally" i.e. not just do an ill-fated all-in that will fail more often than not.
The unfortunate thing is that all these problems the game has are deeply interconnected, and I'm pretty sure they will never be fixed. The mind-boggling thing is that some of them are so obviously retarded that they never should have made it into the game in the first place... For example, the moment I head there was going to be a "hero unit" (the mothership) in the *multiplayer*, I knew it would be trouble. And sure enough, the mothership is, in my opinion, one of the most retarded aspects of this game.
This is getting way too long so I expect nobody will actually read it, but the point is that Blizzard has shown (unfortunately) that they don't really understand how to make a great game (look at the HotS beta patches for examples)... This game is as good as it is not because it was imbued with brilliance from Blizzard, but rather in spite of that, and made so by a horde of dedicated people playing it and trying to be great at it. BW is actually similar in that regard... It's not a brilliant game on paper, but was made brilliant by the players, and by some stroke of luck that was actually possible.
One thing Blizzard does do well is they listen to the community, and though they are *extremely* slow at that, they do gradually make things better. Therefore, I'm actually hopeful for the future in the sense that when Blizzard finally lets the game go, if there's still a pro scene around it, it might become brilliant  . That's why two expansions is a problem as it might push that time too far into the future.
|
100% agree.
There's two main issues that Blizzard needs to fix up:
1. Make battle.net more social and fun
- Have a system that rewards you to play. In SC2 you can waste a whole weekend losing every ladder game and losing all your ladder points. In most games there is a reward for playing such as experience points, in SC2 there is no incentive to mass play, no sense of moving forwards.
- Make playing with friends fun, this is one of the main advantages of Dota/LoL. Implement clans, clan wars and clan ladders etc..
- Implement ingame spectating, Dota 2 does this so well. Alot of the time you want to log into bnet just to chill and not play.
- Make chat channels a bigger part of the UI. This is the main tool for socialising, look at BW and WC3 on how to do it.
- Make personalisable profiles. BW had this and it was fun.
2. Fix design flaws - Spectating is very boring currently
- A reason why every game is a turtlefest into deathball game is because of anti-micro units. There is no incentive to move your army around the map to poke/harass because if you get caught by a forcefield, fungal or concussive shells you are fucked and half your army is dead. So this means players only move out and attack when they know they can win. Blizzard need to encourage more army movement and harass because right now is a boring turtle fest.
- Remove collosus, this is waaay too critical for Protoss and so boring from a spectator point of view. Collosus can kill a massive army in seconds, yet everyone knows its on attack move, why would the audience get excited??
- Redesign warpgate, Protoss relies too heavily on win or die timing attacks. Nothing more boring than watching a 4-8 gate timing attack roll over the opponent.
Instead of redesign the flaws in SC2 all Blizzard is doing is adding new units and tweaking numbers. FIX THE DESIGN FLAWS BLIZZARD YOU RETARDS, ANYTHING CAN BE BALANCED WITH THE RIGHT NUMBERS. BALANCE DOES NOT MEAN FUN TO WATCH/PLAY.
|
On October 17 2012 18:31 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:51 Patate wrote:On October 17 2012 17:40 Beyonder wrote:
I do really wonder where Blizzard failed. Did they fail because they did not address to the masses (where LoL, for example, does)? Or did Blizzard fail by not focusing on the game at the highest level (progaming)? It really feels that their focus is somewhere in between, which is the problem.
THIS. This man has just nailed it. Starcraft 2 will not grow if it becomes more casual, it needs to be the hardcore E-sport, and right now Brood War still is. Yes, limited unit selection and manually clicking on production structures are tedious, but it differenciates the greatest player of all from the great ones. Flash would never be OSL champion and then fall into "code A" 2 seasons later. Only in SC2, where the skill ceilling is lower, that this happens. thats not even an opinion, that is just plain wrong. there was only a small percentage of players In BW that played competitivly and a even smaller percentage that went pro for the game. the same thing can be said for this game.( except for the fact that ladder isnt competitive. ladder is just there to show u that u got a shiny star next to ur name) laddering is just a mind numbingly boring grind fest for points/MMR. the only REAL competitiveness from SC2 comes from current pros and tournaments. ladder is for casuals, not pro gamers believe it or not.
Still, casuals will try to emulate the pros they watch.. i've never seen everyone were pros in BW.
BW was also way more exciting to watch.. remember the last time you were excited when you saw a colossus drop? Me neither.
|
If Blizzard wants to do something about this so called "arrest" (the numbers don't really confirm or deny this one way or another), then the best way to do it is to give lower level players such as myself a reason to compete without monetary gain. Ideas like:
- cool new unit/building models
- decals
- colour schemes for buildings
- unit changes
So on and so forth. Running little mini tournaments for these things, something that is completely automated but drags the community together will work fine. It would require no oversight other than to have someone in Blizzard HQ hit "run" every once in a while and let it work.
That'd make the 1v1 laddering experience more fun for most people. As for the rest, it's all about the customs.
Oh and clans. Come on, Blizzard. For fuck's sake. Just make clans. It's not hard.
|
Yep, the reason no one plays SC2 anymore is because the custom game system is ass. Look at BW and WC3. You can waste hours dicking around in clan/chat channels and in various custom games (dota, td's, hero siege, etc). These games were fun, casual, and could be played for years. Ladder was just a side attraction.
In SC2 your only option is log on, play few 1v1 ladder games, stare at the blank menu, log off. It gets old and it's no surprise that people will quit after a while.
|
Russian Federation117 Posts
On October 17 2012 18:31 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:51 Patate wrote:On October 17 2012 17:40 Beyonder wrote:
I do really wonder where Blizzard failed. Did they fail because they did not address to the masses (where LoL, for example, does)? Or did Blizzard fail by not focusing on the game at the highest level (progaming)? It really feels that their focus is somewhere in between, which is the problem.
THIS. This man has just nailed it. Starcraft 2 will not grow if it becomes more casual, it needs to be the hardcore E-sport, and right now Brood War still is. Yes, limited unit selection and manually clicking on production structures are tedious, but it differenciates the greatest player of all from the great ones. Flash would never be OSL champion and then fall into "code A" 2 seasons later. Only in SC2, where the skill ceilling is lower, that this happens. thats not even an opinion, that is just plain wrong. there was only a small percentage of players In BW that played competitivly and a even smaller percentage that went pro for the game. the same thing can be said for this game.( except for the fact that ladder isnt competitive. ladder is just there to show u that u got a shiny star next to ur name) laddering is just a mind numbingly boring grind fest for points/MMR. the only REAL competitiveness from SC2 comes from current pros and tournaments. ladder is for casuals, not pro gamers believe it or not.
So, if ladder is for casuals and not pro gamers, why is that all my friends who are CASUALS stopped playing the 1v1 ladder and always play 3v3 and 4v4?
1v1 ladder is for hardcore dedicated gamers as it requires a lot of mental strength and gaming experience to get through. It involves LOSING, RANKING and POINTS LOSS. These 3 things are not for casuals.
Blizzard is taking steps in the right direction with HotS though as they will finall enable the "Unranked ladder" which may be a bit more casual friendly since it doesn't involve any ranking and points loss.
|
The real worst thing about this is that the community CAN make a viable ESPORTS version of SC2 with its stellar map editor... like StarBow... but it could never, EVER, get popular because we'd all have to be using Blizzard servers that would be a spit in the face of Blizzard... could it ever allow a community of gamers to be able to make a game in direct competition with its own game?
As for catering for casuals... Yeah. Arcade is a clusterfuck... I wonder if the "competitivization" of team games could help at all? I mean, team games are very low stress and just about everyone can have decent fun at them while also gaining useful game knowledge that allows a viewer a way to see how awesome a pro is at 1 vs 1.
|
On October 17 2012 18:32 Poffel wrote:While I agree with some points of the OP, I am struggling with all the (imho dubious) dichotomies in it. Competitive vs. casual doesn't seem like it's really that much of an either-or decision, and likewise I don't agree with the suggestion that 'not top 10' is the same as 'failure'... however, the actual point of my post is more about dumb decision making in regard to efforts trying to monetize e-sports, even though I'm usure whether even the effort is such a good thing. Ok, you've been warned, here it comes: Rant on sponsorshipsThere's this thing with e-sports sponsoring... when I watch a tournament, at least 75% of the ads I get are for some sort of technology/computer related product. Now, let's take a look at me. I watch competitive video games on the internet, so I'm most likely into computer stuff, right? Hence, showing me ads about new gaming peripherals, computer parts, state of the art monitors and the like seems like a good decision... to the mind of a five year-old. See, because I'm into computer stuff, when I want to buy something, I'll make an informed decision. I'll google for benchmarks, product tests, customer reviews. I'll go by my experience with the previous generation of products from the same brand. Then, I'll compare price-values. In short, I am not going to buy a shitty SSD just because you throw advertisements at me, not even for the sake of e-sports. Don't get me wrong, I own my fair share of e-sports related products. Hard to avoid when almost every company sponsors events these days. However, I didn't buy them because of sponsorships but because they are good products. Shockingly, I'm not alone in this. This guy is actually the only one I found by searching the TL Tech Support forum asking for "esports friendly products". And the very first answer tells him to forget about e-sports sponsorship and go by product quality. TL's "Computer build resource thread" has over a million views right now, and it's all about people building computers. Try a TL search for words like "sponsor", "esports", etc., and you'll see that they are of no concern when our community talks about choices for computer parts. They show up in all sorts of forums, all the time - except when it's about buying stuff. What I mean to say is, please, for the love of God, show me commercials about chocolate, soft drinks, and pizza during video games tournaments. I may be "that computer game marketing group", but I still get hungry and thirsty. And by virtue of being "that computer game marketing group" and not "that gourmet marketing group", I'm more easily suggestible by presentations of tasty sweet stuff than by commercials about my hobby. After all, if you're in it for the revenue, it might be a good idea to show me something I might actually buy because of your bloody commercial. Else, don't be surprised when your ad campaign doesn't work...
good point
the last keyboard and headset I bought are by small brands who have never advertised in esports but make quality products. Food, however, I'm less picky about
|
Blizzard should not copy verbatim what Riot or Valve has done. SC2 needs to define itself within the RTS genre, not emulate the moba experience in an RTS. You cant copy and paste success across different genres without compromising the core experience.
Blizzard needs to really implement things that experienced and competitive RTS players need and want. In the end, people should want to play SC2 because of how crisp and complete the RTS experience is, rather than how close it is to another game they like.
|
Can this discussion go on ignoring the seemingly starcraft unique trait, though BW had a stronger element of this than SC2 thus far, of attracting audiences that do not play the game themselves? To my knowledge that is more or less unheard of for other esports and it would seem to be something to consider in the whole casual friendly vs. hardcore/high skill ceiling vs. interest to watch trichotomy for trying to pin down what makes a more broadly followed esport.
Both sides of "it needs to be easier, more approachable" and "it needs to be more hardcore, with a higher skill ceiling" are being argued with some data/reasoning behind them. Usually when something like that happens in a discussion the focus is on the wrong thing and/or there is more to it and the two sides are not actually diametrically opposed.
|
On October 17 2012 18:31 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:51 Patate wrote:On October 17 2012 17:40 Beyonder wrote:
I do really wonder where Blizzard failed. Did they fail because they did not address to the masses (where LoL, for example, does)? Or did Blizzard fail by not focusing on the game at the highest level (progaming)? It really feels that their focus is somewhere in between, which is the problem.
THIS. This man has just nailed it. Starcraft 2 will not grow if it becomes more casual, it needs to be the hardcore E-sport, and right now Brood War still is. Yes, limited unit selection and manually clicking on production structures are tedious, but it differenciates the greatest player of all from the great ones. Flash would never be OSL champion and then fall into "code A" 2 seasons later. Only in SC2, where the skill ceilling is lower, that this happens. thats not even an opinion, that is just plain wrong. there was only a small percentage of players In BW that played competitivly and a even smaller percentage that went pro for the game. the same thing can be said for this game.( except for the fact that ladder isnt competitive. ladder is just there to show u that u got a shiny star next to ur name) laddering is just a mind numbingly boring grind fest for points/MMR. the only REAL competitiveness from SC2 comes from current pros and tournaments. ladder is for casuals, not pro gamers believe it or not.
I disagree completely.
A gold player playing his heart out on ladder is in my eyes equally as competitive in nature as a semipro grandmaster. In fact I would say that the gold player has more potential to help grow the scene. But when this gold player gets cheesed for the n-th time on ladder or loses his whole army because he didnt pay attention for 2 seconds, then he would start looking at other games.
In other words, a pro offers streams/advice/tournament appearances and inspiration but the committed gold player is the one who is demonstrating growth in the SC2 scene. He is the evidence of growth. If you ignore the lower leagues then it will be just masters players watching streams. And last time I checked masters players are only about 5% of the SC2 population.
|
This was very well defended opinions about why sc2 is a failure compared to BW or LoL. Personally, I am still hoping for hots but I see many problems in SC2 when I compare it to BW which is a game I have been following for many years. Right now the game is not even half as exciting as Brood war was in my opinion (I have been watching every major Korean sc2 tournament for about 6 months so I think/hope I have seen enough to have a valid opinion about it).
SC2 needs to be more complex with more things happening in the same time.
- Harassment is more or less nonexistent in SC2. ... even though KeSPA protosses like Rain and mini are trying to make it work.
- The spell casters are dull and completely lack depths. I don't think anyone who knows both games can think it is more interesting to see the an infestor than a fucking DEFILER. It is because the defiler is a real spell caster that can completely turn a battle around if you use it correctly. You have fewer defilers than infestors - which are basically normal units with mana. And there just is no unit in sc2 that is as dynamic as the queen was in BW...
- Compare the wraith (Kr: "laisu") to the banshee and weep.
- Do the same with the reaver and the colossus.
- Air battles in general are incredibly much duller than in BW - and almost nonexistent...
- How many units in sc2 are almost never used but can be thrown in to surprise your opponent or create truly unique strategies? like the queen, the scout, the corsair in pvt, mnm in tvp (even people who are complete noobs in bw know what a deep 6 is and can enjoy it when they see one), science vessel in tvp and tvt (hi fantasy!) etc.
- Late game zvp in sc2 is the most boring thing one can behold. Its always the same thing with BLs vs mother ship. Two slow units that make up for the dullest game play imaginable.
|
On October 17 2012 18:34 ShatterZer0 wrote:
The real worst thing about this is that the community CAN make a viable ESPORTS version of SC2 with its stellar map editor... like StarBow... but it could never, EVER, get popular because we'd all have to be using Blizzard servers that would be a spit in the face of Blizzard... could it ever allow a community of gamers to be able to make a game in direct competition with its own game?
I'm pretty sure I have heard about a game, inside a blizzard game, which Blizzard did nothing about to stop, and which was more popular than their own game. What was it? Oh yeah dota! The game still being played by more people than LoL (even though riot tries to say something else)
|
Agreed. I play LoL because SC2 is the frustrating game that it is. To play 11 minutes of nonstop macro to get beat by forcefields and immortals stuck in diamond. Sure I could get better or play more, but in a 1v1 game with no reward but personal satisfaction and nobody else to play with, LoL and CS:GO just seem more fun. I just don't have the time to sit down and play many games either. I play LoL with my wife and CS:GO with my friends. If comparing ladder rankings is the only way I can have fun in SC2 then I'll stick with the other games for now. I still play to maintain diamond ability, but man this game gets too frustrating to even deal with after a long day at work.
|
He is actually spot on I work in Marketing and one of my my friends said would you ever sponsor E-Sports if your product was computers etc
I said no, Why? There are actually formulas and methods you can use to calculate the value of promotions/advertising and the bottom line fact that aside from a more positive public image among the Starcraft 2 audience other effects are negligible.
Go Destiny!!
|
Italy12246 Posts
On October 17 2012 14:00 LuckyFool wrote:Lots of valid points (I read destiny's reddit post) but is the ensuing shitstorm really worth it. I just don't feel this is going to be productive in any way other than to get people riled up. Blizzard just doesn't give a shit. 
Back when they tried to pull that bullshit real life names on battlenet crap at sc2 release, the only thing that stopped them from doing it was massive community backlash. There was a thread that was hundreds of pages long with only criticism, and then they listened.
The only way Blizzard will (might) listen is with a massive shitstorm from the community, anything less will not work because, as you said, they don't give a shit.
|
On October 17 2012 18:27 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:35 Azzur wrote:
I think the most interesting part of this post is that destiny is saying alot of things what people on TL don't want, e.g.:
- Making the game easier
- 2v2v2v2 BGH
- Casualization of the game
etc.
But destiny is right - I actually thought about this sometime ago but never made the time to make a post. Blizzard listens to its fans, but in reality, the need to listen to the silent majority, rather than a small minority of the fanbase. He doesn't say to make the game easier, and I've never once seen anyone say that they don't want something like 2v2v2v2 BGH to be an option.
The hypocrisy of the comparably easy interface of sc2 compared to bw is that games like bgh/fastest do not work. The pace of the games are simply too fast, even if bad/casual people are playing. Monobattles is the best attempt at slowing down sc2 melee enough for the casual player, but it's so incredibly neutered its silly.
This is why I simply do not understand the argument that making the controls easy makes it noob friendly, you're effectively speeding up the game, especially at lower levels, making it less noob friendly.
|
On October 17 2012 17:51 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:40 Beyonder wrote:
I do really wonder where Blizzard failed. Did they fail because they did not address to the masses (where LoL, for example, does)? Or did Blizzard fail by not focusing on the game at the highest level (progaming)? It really feels that their focus is somewhere in between, which is the problem.
THIS. This man has just nailed it. Starcraft 2 will not grow if it becomes more casual, it needs to be the hardcore E-sport, and right now Brood War still is. Yes, limited unit selection and manually clicking on production structures are tedious, but it differenciates the greatest player of all from the great ones. Flash would never be OSL champion and then fall into "code A" 2 seasons later. Only in SC2, where the skill ceilling is lower, that this happens.
Times have changed a little, casual is the most important thing now and well free 2 pay, to milk them of their money while the nerds can play for free to keep them busy so they don't switch to the next f2p. Thats where most sponsors go after big numbers. Exceptions are always there though.
And I don't know if Sc2 skill ceiling is lower, but I know that no one is even close to reaching it right now, so it doesn't matter.
As to were Blizzard failed ... Imo their biggest fail was that they didn't made things look awesome. You could take the Carrier as an example, Catapult upgrade basically mimics Carrier micro from BW. (more range launched at once, balanced version from BW). In BW there was this badass sound overlap and Interceptors going off in every direction. In Sc2 yeah well they shoot out straight forward in one line. It's basically the same thing, though sc2 version isn't as op as to grant the full leash range with this. People aren't really impressed and it is not because there is no micro involved (carriers work the best if you select them all attack one unit shift move back a bit, deselect one repeat). But because there is no real sound or effect that shows: "Badass unit at work!"
Mechanics work fine, the ai is a derp to make it difficult, but works for noobs as well. Balance is compared to other current e-sport titles, miles ahead you could say. But the devs didn't took any effort of making units look evil and they still don't. It would be really easy to make the Widow Mine 20 times more evil just by adding a target lock sound, before the missile goes off.
Personally I really love to play sc2, just a few bits that annoy me. But those are mostly related to Blizzard patch knee jerks in the early stages, that did mess up the game a bit. Most of the ones that gone wrong were player related though.
I also like watching sc2, but the awesomeness is missing that Broodwar had for example. On the other hand I love the multiple directions people can go for in Sc2, that makes watching it interesting.
Blizzard devs are really doing a great job at balance and making the game an enjoyment (love the balance between micro and macro). But they overlook other important bits while doing so, which would have made the viewing experience better. I really don't care about viewing experience it's fine for me the way it is. But if you want to have casuals watch your stuff it must look awesome.
Another point is that people still don't use alot of things Sc2 allows you to do. But thats because training your muscles to do stuff is easier. And it took years in BW as well for some tricks to be used. In BW they also didn't patched out 25% of the more abusive tricks, though some in sc2 really were balance breaking bugs.
Edit: well their epic fail was to hire the one that made xbox live for a computer based system ... resulting in them having sc2 ready but not having the promised bnet 2, because they had to scrap it completely.
|
if you need to see increase at ladder points to enjoy a game of sc maybe it not really your game to enjoy.
we always had carrot on a stick in game design, but never before carrot was so much more important than game itself.
|
I might hope this has been posted on the US/EU B-Net forums? Send to the mail of Rock? Becuase every word is true and like a dagger in my soul.
Blizzard FIX THIS GAME!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
