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On October 17 2012 17:57 MVega wrote:
One of StarCraft 2's biggest issues is that it's not casual friendly. That's why LoL and Dota 2 are successful, like it or not, it's because anybody can play them. It doesn't get more user friendly than LoL and Dota.
We don't have to be LoL or Dota, even though I'm happy that those are successful. And so is StarCraft 2. Denying that would be pretty stupid. The thing is it doesn't really make a difference, most successful or least there will always be a StarCraft 2 scene because it is the only real option for people that like RTS games. I like playing LoL, but I can't stand watching it, that shit is duller than watching paint dry.
If we as a community undervalue the sponsors and how much they appreciate knowing their sponsorships are worth it, and we treat the game like shit, well in that case we really deserve whatever we get. Truthfully, we do. Could Blizzard do more? Yeah, they could. But if we just say fuck it and put it all on them, well then it's our fault too.
I don't see this being true. SC2 is definitely far more casual-friendly to spectate than both LoL and Dota 2, because it's far easier to get a decent idea of what is going on with the overview etc in SC2 ("Blue dude has a TON of these lasershooters, I bet he will own that Red guy with only a few of those flying thingies"). As for playing, I think SC2 is more casual-friendly again and yes, I include LoL.
The reason being that if you suck in SC2, that's not a problem, you chill in bronze league. Maybe you find some tutorials etc on how to build stuff, but you don't need optimized build orders etc to enjoy sc2. In MOBAs like Dota 2 and LoL, if you suck, a whole team will be constantly whining on you being shit. You're being killed by heroes who you've never seen before, you have no idea what they do, and people tell you how horrible you are because you didn't know that this very hero out of a hundred could do this thing which just killed you. That's hardly a friendly environment for new users.
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SC2 cannot compete with LoL. Why? Both LoL and DoTA are basically just RTS biased offshoots of familiar scenarios - MMO PvP. There's a nice little leveling system both within the game and outside of the game, they've got achievements, an ELO ladder and its a team game.
Simply put, SC2 remains the hardest multiplayer game in the world after BW itself (and no one plays BW these days). It was always going to have a drop off. WC3 remained popular not because of the base game but because of DoTA and customs. Blizzard have yet to have that nailed on fun custom game that keeps casuals playing Starcraft 2.
However, LoL as a game? Not even a patch on SC2. Neither is DoTA2. They're both awful grind'em'up team games, the PvP of which was better done in any number of MMOs. SC2 is comfortably the best multiplayer game on the market.
LoL and DoTA2 will very slowly start to die simply because the community in those games becomes increasingly hostile to newbies with time. SC2 by comparison is pretty welcoming, but the game itself is complicated.
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there is too many tournaments and there barely any time to build the hype.
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Oh and this
he people telling you that e-mailing sponsors to thank them for supporting teams etc...etc...and that it's really helping the scene are lying to you, or are disillusioned.
That's simply not true, especially if you really did buy their products. Good company will usually have a follow up survey and ask why you are buying theirs. I once fill out to the LG survey that I bought your TV because you sponsor SC2 team Incredible Miracle. Of course, one voice might not means anything but if we show that we interested in their product because of their sponsorship (especially in their survey), then it would really help out in the long run.
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There are many more people playing sc2 than you think.
just from sc2 ranks, the number of teams from all leagues and ladders globally is over a million over the past month
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/all/all/30 and about half a million just for 1v1s http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/30
This isn't the number of games played but the number of ranked teams and players. This also doesn't include all the players who play exclusively for custom games. Just check out the statistics in the NA arcade, there are countless hours played for the top custom maps, add this up for all the custom maps and you'll be surprised how many people play solely for the arcade.
The only reason why it may not feel this way is because the sc2 client doesn't have a chatroom imbedded into it, maybe this is what should change hint hint.
One area that im genuinely concerned with is indeed Korea though, user base there is at an all time low.
You can still ask "but league of legends still has tens of millions of active users" LOL is F2P and SC2 is 60USD and even basic economics will tell you that something that costs $0 will have much higher demand for something that costs 60USD.
Maybe this is something that blizzard should also look at hint hint. oh wait they already are, and I trust in Blizzard to do the right decision despite all the BS we've been through ever since they merged with Activision. Just look at the recent MOP expansion, its been widely considered a HUGE improvement, the subscriber count is now over 10million again.
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Russian Federation117 Posts
On October 17 2012 17:59 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:56 AbideWithMe wrote:
Quite an interesting topic although it seems to be discussed from a completely distorted point of view: namely a capitalistic viewpoint.
Who says that there has to be a huge SC2 Scene with lots of paying sponsors and tournaments with prize money in the millions?
StarCraft players should not mainly be driven by greed or financial interest but by an inherent will to improve in a discipline without hoping for any reward whatsoever -simply because they enjoy it - and tournament viewers should mainly consist out of people rejoicing in the competition and admiring the competitors skillwise.
Instead of pushing and forcing SC2 in the shape of a profitable format why don't the people who like the game for being a competitive discipline simply play it to increase their skill or watch tournaments of skilled players and everybody who is in for the money just leaves?
StarCraft is never going to be a social gathering or a streamlined cashcow. It is a highly demanding and low rewarding skill requiring 1v1 discipline.
If sponsors run away because of bad RoI it's a good thing in my opinion as those people who see StarCraft as a way to earn money leave and those who play for the sake of competition stay.
Who says there have to be paid full-time SC2 players? In my opinion SC2 is far bettter off with people playing it as a hobby and tournaments being hosted for the sake of competition by fans and amateur community figures. Streaming has never been easier and somebody who hosts a tournament in his free time won't have any problem finding competitors for his tournament and people willing to view it.
Going back to the roots and having a small hardcore community of die-hard fans willing to invest time in their hobby without expecting any reward whatsoever is the way to have a stable and sustainable community.
In my opinion SC2 has never profited of people expecting a reward for their interest. People like Destiny, MaximusBlack or Lindsay Sporrer who do not even seem to enjoy the game but take it as some kind of job are "destroying SC2". If Destiny does not enjoy SC2 the way it is why does he still play it and participates in the scene? He was one of the first streaming for money and expecting to make a living out of StarCraft without actually being an outstanding contestant who has ever shown his superiority in a tournament. Instead he has churned the community up numerous times with mischief completely unrelated to SC2.
If the "death of SC2" means an exodus of gold diggers and capitalists I will gladly lay SC2 to rest. This is a good post, and although I don't agree with everything (we do need SOME to breed competition) it is very well put together.
I see the point of the post but I couldn't disagree more. You see, if we want people to play the game and get as good as they can get in this game, the only way to do it is to play FULL TIME. Meaning those really dedicated players that start playing this game as a hobby, ultimately will see the need of playing it all the time to get the best they can get.
It's pretty much the same with any competitive sport: you start practicing it as a hobby and slowly you may progress towards being a full time professional athlete.
I think that AbideWithMe's point is a bit off, since he assumes that everyone who's earning money is here because of their greed - WRONG. Those guys (Destiny included) started playing the game as it was their passion and slowly saw a way of earning a living, I think it's awesome and I hope to see more professional players coming into the scene. However, if the state of the game and vieweship numbers stay the same or begin to decline... It might not happen anymore and we won't see many more professional players breaking through.
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Honestly, it is too late. Most people that were excited for SC2 and quit shortly after will never return. They had one chance and they fked it, mostly due to Bnet "2".
Also, too many people are hosting tournaments these days (and for the past x months/years). No one would give a shit about the Olympics or World Cup if it was on once a month. PL, MSL, OSL was perfect. There was anticipation and hype and more than just a pay cheque on the line. SC2 has none of this.
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ToyRUs is giving discount to all PC games because they are clearing their stock - -.
The price of SC2 is lowered, however (40 USD). Still, 40$ > 0$...
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1) Sale.
2) Doesn't change his point.
And no seriously, it's not "too late" - Unless we give up and then Blizzard might as well say fuck it, and then we've failed and not them.
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altho i agree with pretty much all of his post he is n particular 100% right about the casual thing.
i can not tell u how many times i try to play custom games on the arcade and somehow magically end up on the fucking ladder screen. and whats worse is sometimes i would end up laddering in a fucking 1v1 when all i meant to do is replay the custom game i just played. i dont even know how that happens but it does -_- that incites so much rage from me since i do also ladder when im not in the mood for custom games and do not want to just throw the game(not like it matters anyway, but im anal about that stuff). so im pretty much forced to all in or something to get the game over with so i can rejoin the custom game i was trying to rejoin in the first place.
not only that but he is 100% right about BW UMS games. the majority of my games (99.99% in fact) were UMS games like fastes map possible, BGH, FFAs, 8v8 jungle, nexus wars gold, cat and mouse, etc etc. those are the games i remember, not the 1v1 games i played against very hard comps or the 1v1 games i played once or twice in a blue moon. but despite all this i still followed BW tournaments and watched day 9 quite alot. i even remember watching my first "live" tournament event on stream for BW with casters like diggity and mole trap. doing that is what jump shotted me to diamond when SC2 was released and encouraged me to 1v1 more in SC2 since i couldnt in BW.
arcade and the custom game community is a serious clusterfuck just as he says and blizz needs to fix it.
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United States47024 Posts
The point about the interface/UMS maps really hits home.
Let's be clear: the vast majority of the popularity of BW/WC3 came from custom games/multiplayer. The lion's share of people I talk to about those games remember them for 2v2v2v2 BGH, UMS maps, 3v3s, etc. They absolutely crush the amount of people who played those games for competitive 1v1s. Destiny is absolutely right when he said they turned the least popular aspect of the game into the core component.
Now here's the thing: developing the interface for casual custom games involves NO SACRIFICE when it comes to the competitive game. You don't need to make the competitive game more casual in any way. Hell the game could be as hardcore and "inaccessible" as you want (no automine/MBS even) and it wouldn't affect custom game play at all because typically UMS mechanics use very little of the core game's mechanics. Having a better custom game interface would arguably allow a MORE hardcore competitive game, while still catering to casuals because of the accessibility through UMS games.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On October 17 2012 18:04 Evangelist wrote:
SC2 cannot compete with LoL. Why? Both LoL and DoTA are basically just RTS biased offshoots of familiar scenarios - MMO PvP. There's a nice little leveling system both within the game and outside of the game, they've got achievements, an ELO ladder and its a team game.
Simply put, SC2 remains the hardest multiplayer game in the world after BW itself (and no one plays BW these days). It was always going to have a drop off. WC3 remained popular not because of the base game but because of DoTA and customs. Blizzard have yet to have that nailed on fun custom game that keeps casuals playing Starcraft 2.
However, LoL as a game? Not even a patch on SC2. Neither is DoTA2. They're both awful grind'em'up team games, the PvP of which was better done in any number of MMOs. SC2 is comfortably the best multiplayer game on the market.
LoL and DoTA2 will very slowly start to die simply because the community in those games becomes increasingly hostile to newbies with time. SC2 by comparison is pretty welcoming, but the game itself is complicated.
The level of cluelessness in your post is appalling. SC2 is indeed so welcoming that you need to be incredibly lucky to find teamliquid, or youre never going to talk to anyone besides the opponents that you have no time to talk to.
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I think there is still a chance to fix the problems with the GUI I mean there is bound to be plenty of people who buy HOTS just for the single player.
I do think they should at least put a little more effort into the more "casual" ladders such as team games since I'm sure they could outsource making new team maps to the community if they wanted to instead of having to play the same maps since release every season.
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On October 17 2012 18:04 Evangelist wrote:
SC2 cannot compete with LoL. Why? Both LoL and DoTA are basically just RTS biased offshoots of familiar scenarios - MMO PvP. There's a nice little leveling system both within the game and outside of the game, they've got achievements, an ELO ladder and its a team game.
Simply put, SC2 remains the hardest multiplayer game in the world after BW itself (and no one plays BW these days). It was always going to have a drop off. WC3 remained popular not because of the base game but because of DoTA and customs. Blizzard have yet to have that nailed on fun custom game that keeps casuals playing Starcraft 2.
However, LoL as a game? Not even a patch on SC2. Neither is DoTA2. They're both awful grind'em'up team games, the PvP of which was better done in any number of MMOs. SC2 is comfortably the best multiplayer game on the market.
LoL and DoTA2 will very slowly start to die simply because the community in those games becomes increasingly hostile to newbies with time. SC2 by comparison is pretty welcoming, but the game itself is complicated.
A few month ago, I would agree with you but now that everything has happen just like destiny described, I dont know anymore. I hate to say it but LoL and Dota2 got SC2 beat atm by a LONG shot and Dota2 isnt even out yet! LoL is HUGE it is a monster now globally as well too. To say it will slowly die off is silly atm because it would seem that SC2 is doing the dying here first.
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Sigh.....now I want to play LoL......
Though SC2 has a special place in my heart. WHether SC2 is gonna die or not, I will always love it and play it and watch it
Ok....off to researching about how to play LoL!!
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On October 17 2012 18:14 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 18:04 Evangelist wrote:
SC2 cannot compete with LoL. Why? Both LoL and DoTA are basically just RTS biased offshoots of familiar scenarios - MMO PvP. There's a nice little leveling system both within the game and outside of the game, they've got achievements, an ELO ladder and its a team game.
Simply put, SC2 remains the hardest multiplayer game in the world after BW itself (and no one plays BW these days). It was always going to have a drop off. WC3 remained popular not because of the base game but because of DoTA and customs. Blizzard have yet to have that nailed on fun custom game that keeps casuals playing Starcraft 2.
However, LoL as a game? Not even a patch on SC2. Neither is DoTA2. They're both awful grind'em'up team games, the PvP of which was better done in any number of MMOs. SC2 is comfortably the best multiplayer game on the market.
LoL and DoTA2 will very slowly start to die simply because the community in those games becomes increasingly hostile to newbies with time. SC2 by comparison is pretty welcoming, but the game itself is complicated. The level of cluelessness in your post is appalling. SC2 is indeed so welcoming that you need to be incredibly lucky to find teamliquid, or youre never going to talk to anyone besides the opponents that you have no time to talk to.
I think it's fine to whne about SC2 having a pretty crappy UI, but let's not make shit up. There are chat channels there, and a lot of people use them. "only being able to talk with opponents" is a lie.
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On October 17 2012 17:46 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:36 Cuce wrote:On October 17 2012 17:24 Tobberoth wrote:On October 17 2012 17:21 soullogik wrote:
sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future of esports, welp time to give up.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
This is why we need to put our faith in Dota 2. Amazing game? Check. Far from casual? Check. Good company supporting it? Check. Potential to get a lot of viewers? Check. dude, why do i have to put my faith on a game I dont like, not amazing, so casual, not a good company suğpporting it, just becaue it might get alot of numbers. We are not in it for numbers, we never were. we dont care about numbers. I dont enjot dota2, or lol, not one is better than other, and both is garbage compared to sc2. they are not a good step to take foward if foward is playing good games. I see no reason fo support these games. Too fucking bad, I like Monster Truck Rally 1998, why should I support any other game, and I EXPECT PEOPLE TO MAKE A BIG SCENE FOR MONSTER TRUCK RALLY! Sorry bro, but you have to be realistic. Dota 2 has potential to be a great esports game, whether or not YOU like it (which is irrelevant). SC2 had potential and has had a great run, but it's questionable how much more it can grow and if it won't be declining. And you have obviously never played Dota 2 if you think it's "so casual", that's a ridiculous claim. So how about you go play it, and THEN decide if it's "garbage".
ok, fisrt of all I can make any claim I want, thats kinda how conversation works, you made your claim, then I did. I can go ahead on how you are compeletly lacking on rts department, and how dare you speak of whats casual or not, without spending days playting mega lo mania, but thats not productive.
I played dota 2 I played dota, its garbage. it is. I spent years playing wc3, every once a while friends woudl want me to join in their dota, I always did, and I always thought it was ggarbage. Thing is I spent days playing that garbage cause its casual cause its soothing. I'm not calling you garbage, I'm calling the game garbage. and I have right to do so.
On the other hand, I dont expect anyone to make a new run a c64 game tournemants, just like I dont expenct anyone to hand in sc2 scene anythign it does not deserve.
just dota2's might to be financial success is no reason to supprt a game I dont like enjoy, and think that its garbage.
I dont support popular games, its the other way around, we support games we enjoy, and in result they become popular. surely more people will support mobas than starcraft 2, we always knew that.
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On October 17 2012 14:01 Torte de Lini wrote:Formatting is subpar  Even if Dota and LoL triumph over SC2 (which is already happening), Blizzard still has a dominance and no competition in the RTS scene, does that not matter? We're comparing two different genres on the premise of E-Sports, but Blizzard still has a hold on the players and scene. Not all, or even many, players will go to Dota and they like the scene and the community. That's enough for the game to still live with some tournaments, major events, etc. There are a lot of fundamental problems with the scene, Blizzard is at fault in-part, but I think we have a lot of internal issues too. Dota and LoL also suffer major problems within their respective scene that hinder their growth, but I can see how Blizzard is miles away from what Valve and Riot are suffering from.
I agree 100% with you.
It seems that the SC2 scene must be the OMGWTFPWN E-sport out there, while still being hardcore and elitist enough to keep being the peak of RTS gaming.
That is impossible.
Dota and LoL are diferent games compared to SC2, they have different conception, and different way to sell to the average user.
I don't like LoL or Dota, I never liked the original Dota, but I like their success, because if E-sports become mainstream thanks to them, SC2 scene will grow nonetheless, thanks to some of them taking interest in RTS games.
Also, maybe it is just me, but I'm in the idea that the global viewers count and global exposition of SC2 is way bigger than it was with BW.
Sure SC2 is not as big in Korea as it was its predecessor, but internationally, it is the most successful RTS game in viewers and exposition numbers.
And I don't think WoL play is stagnant. If you watch the 2 years evolution, most of the MU had evolved non stop thanks to new strats, some balance tweaks and some new players builds.
Afterall, it took BW years to reach a semi - decent metagame.
Let SC2 stabilize.
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but isnt this the trend that has been going on for years with blizzard? blizzard releases a game and WE make it what it is. They dont really do shit in terms of pushing it forward. They said this in inside the game earlier this week, BW was made popular by koreans not blizzard. and its like dota also, dota emerged as a custom game from a blizzard game which quickly became more popular than wc3 ladder and its now booming with success. its what corporations do man, they make money and sit back and just make more money lol. and they will do this year after year as long as we buy their stuff
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EPT
