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On October 17 2012 18:33 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 18:31 Ballistixz wrote:On October 17 2012 17:51 Patate wrote:On October 17 2012 17:40 Beyonder wrote:
I do really wonder where Blizzard failed. Did they fail because they did not address to the masses (where LoL, for example, does)? Or did Blizzard fail by not focusing on the game at the highest level (progaming)? It really feels that their focus is somewhere in between, which is the problem.
THIS. This man has just nailed it. Starcraft 2 will not grow if it becomes more casual, it needs to be the hardcore E-sport, and right now Brood War still is. Yes, limited unit selection and manually clicking on production structures are tedious, but it differenciates the greatest player of all from the great ones. Flash would never be OSL champion and then fall into "code A" 2 seasons later. Only in SC2, where the skill ceilling is lower, that this happens. thats not even an opinion, that is just plain wrong. there was only a small percentage of players In BW that played competitivly and a even smaller percentage that went pro for the game. the same thing can be said for this game.( except for the fact that ladder isnt competitive. ladder is just there to show u that u got a shiny star next to ur name) laddering is just a mind numbingly boring grind fest for points/MMR. the only REAL competitiveness from SC2 comes from current pros and tournaments. ladder is for casuals, not pro gamers believe it or not. Still, casuals will try to emulate the pros they watch.. i've never seen everyone were pros in BW. BW was also way more exciting to watch.. remember the last time you were excited when you saw a colossus drop? Me neither.
casuals will ALWAYS try to emulate a pro no matter what the game is. hell even Yugioh a casual player will blindly copy a deck build of a regional champion without even know how or why the deck works. a casual player in LoL will use the most used hero by pro players. a casual will use the most used weapon by a pro player in a FPS game. a casual will pick the fighter most used by pro fighting game players.
so i dont see why that is a factor for anything. all it means is that casuals are trying to copy pros because they are not creative enough to invent there own builds.
this is what separates a casual from a real competitive player IMO. the ability to MAKE UP YOUR OWN BUILDS/STRATS in order to WIN. not copy someone else and get a win because u copied someone better than you. that does not make u competitive, it makes u a copy cat with no skill or creativity.
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On October 17 2012 18:41 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 14:00 LuckyFool wrote:Lots of valid points (I read destiny's reddit post) but is the ensuing shitstorm really worth it. I just don't feel this is going to be productive in any way other than to get people riled up. Blizzard just doesn't give a shit.  Back when they tried to pull that bullshit real life names on battlenet crap at sc2 release, the only thing that stopped them from doing it was massive community backlash. There was a thread that was hundreds of pages long with only criticism, and then they listened. The only way Blizzard will (might) listen is with a massive shitstorm from the community, anything less will not work because, as you said, they don't give a shit.
Well they better start giving a shit. After what they did with Diablo 3 and the design flaws of Wing of Liberty, they really really need to start giving a shit. They rely on their franchises.
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On October 17 2012 18:38 Elroi wrote:
SC2 needs to be more complex with more things happening in the same time.
- Harassment is more or less nonexistent in SC2. ... even though KeSPA protosses like Rain and mini are trying to make it work.
- The spell casters are dull and completely lack depths. I don't think anyone who knows both games can think it is more interesting to see the an infestor than a fucking DEFILER. It is because the defiler is a real spell caster that can completely turn a battle around if you use it correctly. You have fewer defilers than infestors - which are basically normal units with mana. And there just is no unit in sc2 that is as dynamic as the queen was in BW...
Yup
As long as 1a-moving a whole army will be that easy, splitting your army will still be suicide in most cases. Don't expect this to change unless Blizzard decides to make this game harder.
As for the spell casters, your example of the infestors vs defiler is great. The Defiler is an unit that requires a skill on its own. Pulling out great dark swarms is way harder than chain fungling.
Reaver drops, dark swarms, dropping zealots to make spider mines kill the terran's own tanks was truly amazing to watch. SC2 has NOTHING like this.. except maybe an archon toilet, which by the way is not being used on its intended purpose (and it ends the game instead of just being a pure display of awesomness).
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On October 17 2012 18:18 enemy2010 wrote:
I feel like the community is about to be splitted in two halves.
There are people who thing the game is too easy and needs to get harder to get more successfull.
Other people say that the game need to get more casual friendly to attract more players, to gain more money and finally to get more successfull.
Funny.
You seem to be under the impression that the two are mutually exclusive. The standard competitive game should be more challenging and lead to a more interesting play experience; while having more complex mechanics that require sufficient skill that a professional player can truly wow us with his play. Battle.net should also be significantly redesigned so that casual players can easily access an experience they are more attracted to, such as unranked games and UMS maps that were so popular in both Brood War and WarCraft III.
There is absolutely no reason that Blizzard can't expand the audience of the game without compromising the integrity of the competitive product.
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Eh blizzard wanted to create a paradise by 1 single click "Find Match". Now they understood people dont want to play Softcore-Hardcore-Matchmaking-Socialising mixture. Because it does not work. But what makes it so ugly is that they almost did not do anything about it for 2 years and still counting.
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well said, i agree with more or less everything that destiny says
its not my fault that i dont play because my ladder anxiety, its blizzards fault for designing a game that isnt fun for the casual player
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no matter how good the game is, you will be limited by nto making it f2p.
starcraft 2 has no competition. no matter how much we bitch about it, it is just so well made. no other rts comes close to it. coh? dow2? c&c's? age of online? none of them comes close.
if you make it f2p, everyone who would want to try playing a rts will be playing starcraft 2. espacially with new streaming download option.
thing is, we dont really need starcraft to compete other games in viewer or player numbers, we just need it to be good at what it is.
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On October 17 2012 18:53 Cuce wrote:
no matter how good the game is, you will be limited by nto making it f2p.
starcraft 2 has no competition. no matter how much we bitch about it, it is just so well made. no other rts comes close to it. coh? dow2? c&c's? age of online? none of them comes close.
if you make it f2p, everyone who would want to try playing a rts will be playing starcraft 2. espacially with new streaming download option.
thing is, we dont really need starcraft to compete other games in viewer or player numbers, we just need it to be good at what it is.
SC2 has no competition because its current game developpers have killed the competition when they were developping them 
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I get what he's trying to say to implement more things so that "casuals" can grind out decals/visual goodies, etc. But BW didn't have any one this, there were UMS maps as Destiny states but how much of the population really played them?
I would say that the vast majority of people who watched BW didn't even play it, and that's why it was so popular. You didn't need to play it to enjoy it. You maybe played a couple of games, got introduced to the game and you were set. BW was quite easy to understand and very exciting to watch, SC2 has problems with this.
I think it's all very random, if for example LoL wouldn't exist or DotA or any other such game SC2 would probably have more people playing it. BW didn't have any real competition in SK at the time, CS was a bit popular for some time I believe?
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On October 17 2012 18:50 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
well said, i agree with more or less everything that destiny says
its not my fault that i dont play because my ladder anxiety, its blizzards fault for designing a game that isnt fun for the casual player
yeah but can you really have casual friendly rts game? did we ever hade an casual friendly rts game? any rts game as popular, hell quarter as popular as sc2 will be striped open and will have tons of "griefing" builds and strategies on internet. thats the nature of the genre.
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Well said. Blizzard is screwing up their own game. If we had a Battle.net similar to warcraft 3 i'd bet money stream views would be up.
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On October 17 2012 18:55 Cuce wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 18:50 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
well said, i agree with more or less everything that destiny says
its not my fault that i dont play because my ladder anxiety, its blizzards fault for designing a game that isnt fun for the casual player yeah but can you really have casual friendly rts game? did we ever hade an casual friendly rts game? any rts game as popular, hell quarter as popular as sc2 will be striped open and will have tons of "griefing" builds and strategies on internet. thats the nature of the genre.
Custom games cater to casuals
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I only played a couple of ladder games back in WC3. The rest of the games I played were all customs.
The only reason I started laddering in SC2 is because of how shitty playing custom games were with that UI.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
I expected more radical changes in HOTS but it seems that's not the case. The new units are not that interesting and the old units still haven't improved. Same old good BLOB vs BLOB.
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Austria24422 Posts
I definitely agree. Even what Blizzard is doing with these new units is kinda taking interest away. They all have a defined role, they're using them to balance the game more than introduce new dynamics.
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Does anybody have the numbers for the people playing the game? sc2ranks seems to provide numbers but I cannot see the figures for the previous seasons.
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On October 17 2012 18:58 lisward wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 18:55 Cuce wrote:On October 17 2012 18:50 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
well said, i agree with more or less everything that destiny says
its not my fault that i dont play because my ladder anxiety, its blizzards fault for designing a game that isnt fun for the casual player yeah but can you really have casual friendly rts game? did we ever hade an casual friendly rts game? any rts game as popular, hell quarter as popular as sc2 will be striped open and will have tons of "griefing" builds and strategies on internet. thats the nature of the genre. Custom games cater to casuals
but are they rts games? most popular EU custom game is a tower defence.
most casual rts game I can thnk of is dow2, and evet it can get brutal (sometimes reason is lacluster ui and responsiveness of the game but still).
think of all big name rts games, not of them are casual.
Even square enix made an rts and it was not casual
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Yeah, I can get with this. All valid points.
I especially liked the part about custom games being the drawing point for the casual consumer. Never thought of it before, but when I thought back to when I was a kid and started playing SC:BW all I did was grind Bunker Wars and BGH. It's sort of mind boggeling that blizz haven't thought of this...
The only thing we can hope for is that blizzard wakes up from their self-induced hubris and actually take a long hard look at what makes other games great and find a way to cater to all sides of the population-- high and low level.
Seriously, I want to buy your games blizzard! Stop breakiing my heart!
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Sadly I agree with too many points
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 17 2012 19:04 Cuce wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 18:58 lisward wrote:On October 17 2012 18:55 Cuce wrote:On October 17 2012 18:50 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
well said, i agree with more or less everything that destiny says
its not my fault that i dont play because my ladder anxiety, its blizzards fault for designing a game that isnt fun for the casual player yeah but can you really have casual friendly rts game? did we ever hade an casual friendly rts game? any rts game as popular, hell quarter as popular as sc2 will be striped open and will have tons of "griefing" builds and strategies on internet. thats the nature of the genre. Custom games cater to casuals but are they rts games? most popular EU custom game is a tower defence. most casual rts game I can thnk of is dow2, and evet it can get brutal (sometimes reason is lacluster ui and responsiveness of the game but still). think of all big name rts games, not of them are casual. Even square enix made an rts and it was not casual
The customs arent themselves. However, you can have people playing those customs also watching streams, tournaments etc. As Destiny said, in terms of $ the most important thing is viewer counts.
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EPT
