Ever since Ponera published his ideas on Anatomy of Starcraft in analysing Zerg morphology, I had this burning urge to analyze the Terran units in terms of functionality, structure, and army role. I'm a second year science student in pharmacology, so my knowledge may not be in depth, but I'll try my best to rationalize in context of the lore and general graphics within the game.
This is not a discussion on balance, but rather to ask:
Why are these units designed in these fashion? What mechanics allow them to function? Why did Terran army stop production of certain units?
I hope to answer and discuss some of these questions in qualitative fashion. And I would love any feedbacks & comments & disagreements to whatever I post.
So without further ado, allow me to present to you:
Hellion
The Hellion is an odd beast of war. Moving at high velocity, they attack with intermittent massive bursts of flames. These "fire cars" can effectively leave a settlement in flames and leave unscathed within minutes of their arrival.
However, compared to equally agile Brood War-era Vulture bikes that provided both raiding potential and zone control with hazardous minefield against a large ground force, many impartial observers were left scratching their heads: Why would Terran switch out an effective weapon of war for something that is somewhat weaker?
I believe the answer to the question is that vultures were too powerful in absence of major war. The Dominion Terran realized after the end of the Brood War, vultures even in small numbers provided a highly efficient vehicle for small rebel factions. Packs of vulture bikes can move into Dominion compound in the cover of the night, use their fragmentation grenade launchers while the bikes were still in motion to sabotage much as possible without slowing down. Then as the Dominion forces group up, the vultures can simply lay down spider mines and escape with relatively few losses whereas the Dominion army would need to carefully remove the deployed mines or risk death. Vultures and spider mines became too much of a liability than an asset.
Upon the end of Brood War, the Dominion stopped the production of vulture bikes, started destroying the blueprints, and scrapped any bikes confiscated from the rebels. Soon Vultures were no longer seen on battlefields, not due to their weakness, but due to their sheer power and cost-efficiency.
So you may wonder, where on earth Hellions come from then?
I believe hellions are designed not necessarily for war, but rather as tools of oppression. These flame cars are flashy in combat, showing massive fireballs that are only effective versus lightly armored marines or thinly plated vehicles (which are the major components of dissident forces). Also, they leave a trail of scorched rebel villages, leaving a clear warning to any dissatisfied civilian populace to fear the Dominion. People just simply fear death by fire.
Finally, these mobile vehicles in the hands of rebels do not pose as much of a threat to the Dominion army as vulture bikes did due to lack of mine-zone-control and motion-based firing.
Now onto the structural design of hellions. Hellions are four-wheeled, very thinly plated with some sort of titanium-alloy or other light metal alloy with extremely high melting point that can withstand its own firepower. I'm guestimating top speeds of 200km/h, but this is just a wild guess since relative move speed is not clear from just the gameplay. It seems to have one major flamethrower on top of the vehicle above the driver's seat.
The flamethrower is a peculiar weapon. In an anoxic environment, flames are quickly squashed due to lack of oxygen. So my conjecture is that the flamethrower uses a composite of pressurized hydrocarbon source, superoxidants, and thermite mixture (all of which are likely to be by-products of mineral mining) to create a beautiful wave of orange or blue flame. The quality of thermite likely dictates the potency of fire and the colour of the fireball. The recipe for thermite is kept top secret and very precise, that's why we need to research "Infernal Pre-Igniter" within each game. The flamethrower seems to have a range of few hundred meters, but once again this is a wild guess from the gameplay.
The fun part about this vehicle is that it likely uses the same hydrocarbon source for it's motor fuel. This design was implemented to minimize the mass of the hellion. This means that the hellion must slow down nearly to a stop to fire its weapon. When firing the giant burst of flame in direction of driving would not only mean that the thermite flame would burn the hellion itself, but also risk an explosion due to thermite-superoxidant backdraft into the engine.
In short, hellion is much harder vehicle to operate. Its primary design was never meant for war but subjugation. It's even more expensive in terms of minerals compared to the vulture, but as this crazy said: + Show Spoiler +
So upon the return of the war against Raynor's Raiders, Zerg, and the Protoss, these hellions are not considered as the best weapon of war compared to the old school vulture bikes. However, they still are brutally efficient versus the thin exoskeletons on the drones and zerglings. So every day, hellion drivers are called to either terrorize civillians or assault Zerg mineral fields. Survival rate of the latter mission is approximated to be 15%.
Well I personally found this a pretty interesting read. I like your explanation for the hellion as a rebel suppression tool, and I'd like to see more, so keep up the good work!
I believe the answer to the question is that vultures were too powerful in absence of major war. The Dominion Terran realized after the end of the Brood War, vultures even in small numbers provided a highly efficient vehicle for small rebel factions. Packs of vulture bikes can move into Dominion compound in the cover of the night, use their fragmentation grenade launchers while the bikes were still in motion to sabotage much as possible without slowing down. Then as the Dominion forces group up, the vultures can simply lay down spider mines and escape with relatively few losses whereas the Dominion army would need to carefully remove the deployed mines or risk death. Vultures and spider mines became too much of a liability than an asset.
Upon the end of Brood War, the Dominion stopped the production of vulture bikes, started destroying the blueprints, and scrapped any bikes confiscated from the rebels. Soon Vultures were no longer seen on battlefields, not due to their weakness, but due to their sheer power and cost-efficiency.
Those engineers should get their asses to work on a new blueprint ASAP
aaa. i really enjoy the StarCraft lore. I think it has the same potential as the Halo Expanded Universe, and maybe it already has reached that because for some reason i'm always extremely disinterested in the Starcraft novels.
has anyone read a significant number of the series? and more importantly: are they good?
I believe the answer to the question is that vultures were too powerful in absence of major war. The Dominion Terran realized after the end of the Brood War, vultures even in small numbers provided a highly efficient vehicle for small rebel factions. Packs of vulture bikes can move into Dominion compound in the cover of the night, use their fragmentation grenade launchers while the bikes were still in motion to sabotage much as possible without slowing down. Then as the Dominion forces group up, the vultures can simply lay down spider mines and escape with relatively few losses whereas the Dominion army would need to carefully remove the deployed mines or risk death. Vultures and spider mines became too much of a liability than an asset.
Upon the end of Brood War, the Dominion stopped the production of vulture bikes, started destroying the blueprints, and scrapped any bikes confiscated from the rebels. Soon Vultures were no longer seen on battlefields, not due to their weakness, but due to their sheer power and cost-efficiency.
Those engineers should get their asses to work on a new blueprint ASAP
Haha, I believe that Dominion probably has copies of the blueprint in their defense facility. Also, some raiders/scrapper factions still have few copies of the blueprint. That's why there was easy technology for the Dominion to modify the Spider Mine into the Widow Mine, which is just rocket propulsion system copied from the Vulture grenade launcher + standard target detection system and its walking design copied from Spider Mine.
Diamondback from the campaign I believe held the spirit of vulture, but it too was deemed to be too strong at raiding, and scrapped.
On September 21 2012 14:21 Nazza wrote: Nice read.
Good luck trying to explain why the Crucio does less damage than the Arclite though....
Challenge accepted. I'll definitely do seige tanks later. (I think Crucio and Arclite refers to cannons on tank, otherwise how embarassing).
//
Thanks for your support! Is there a particular Terran unit that you want analyzed in terms of lore + mechanics? I'll try to stay close to what Blizzard intended in conjunction with my extrapolation of the army functions of specific units.
I liked this, a nice read. Although for all the parts you are unsure of you should probably make up something out of thin air to make it sound more serious. Would love to see the other units
Marines have been part of Terran army as long as people can remember. There are historical accounts that dates them back even before the Earth was ruled under United Earth Directorate. The space marines consisted of the backbone of ground-based combat in space. However, this may all be a propaganda glorifying the marines to make more young men join the marines.
Initially, the marines only consisted of convicts and ex-criminals who were spared death penalty for their enlistment in the Marines. All marines underwent Marine Re-Education Program(MREP), in order to demand absolute obedience from these aggressive criminals and implement into them the combat skills required to become a marine. MREP is most likely a Clockwork Orange-esque mental modification to brainwash the convicts into submission via Pavlovian behavioural modification and transmitting drugs.
However, as the criminals began to drop in supply and conflicts began to break out everywhere (particularly against Zerg broods and the Protoss eradicators of infested organisms that happened to cross path with the Terrans), majority of men who were not disabled were forced into mandatory conscription into the marines. Hence, many men were known to have joined rebellion forces during this period.
Not all marines were considered equally brainwashed minions of the Confederacy before the Brood War. Many members of the Sons of Korhal were renegade marines who had the mental willpower to override the obedience command from MREP. Also, officer class marines are known to not undergo the absolute obedience component of the MREP in order for them to have some degree of free-will in orchestrating strategic maneuvers.
You can easily distinguish between the UED, Confederate or Dominion marines from the renegade marines simply by their suits. The rebel marines often make modifications to their suits by spray-painting on lewd pictures of women or other "tattoos" onto their power suits to express themselves, whereas the government based marines simply have the logo of their faction on their suits.
Despite the re-education procedures, we can see evidence of resistance by most marines on the battlefield during the Brood War. The marines would often stray off from their formations, in some inhibited desire to break free from the command to obey, and this was particularly observed in urban areas with ally or enemy structures. The marines without explicit commands were shown to split between hills, and run into cliffs with no avail.
However, by the 4th year after the Brood War, the Terran forces in general seemed to have modified MREP combat formation to near perfection. As we see in Wings of Liberty that marines move in perfect unison and show the capacity to scoot and shoot with machine-like precision under a good commander. So effective was this modified MREP, that even rebel forces are known to use this program just without the obedience component of MREP.
Now onto the Marine himself. Marines are known to be exclusively male. They are equipped with a personal power suit that is both made with light and durable metal. CMC-300+ edition of the suit comes with its own oxygenic system that converts the carbon dioxide either from the user or the environment around it. But most importantly the suit itself is attached to the central nervous system on the user. It takes input from the nerve and neuron firing, digitalizes the data, then translates this directly into the motion in the power suit. So the functionality of the marine is limited by the nerve cell's ability to relay signals quickly. The UED realized this limitation by the human central nervous system, and its scientist developed perhaps one of the strongest upgrade known in all of Starcraft universe: Stimpack.
Stimpack is a cocktail of neurotransmitter and extremely potent analgesics that essentially seal all pain receptors in the body. It accelerates the neural firing process by tapping into the parts of the brain that are not usually used in normal cognitive or motor functions. So the users of this drug can temporarily maximize the power of the suit, which is shown by the marine's capability to fire with extreme precision due to enhanced perceptions and run upwards of 50km/h.
The drug lasts for approximately 12 hours, but it also produces powerful toxins as by-product as the drug is injected into the arm. Though the toxins from stimpack can be mitigated with medical treatment by medics or medivac, the long term effects have been shown to generate various forms of cancer without advanced medical treatment at a hospital. In a recent research by the Moebius Foundation, the average lifespan is shortened about 5 to 10 years per untreated use of the stimpack. However, this is not a huge problem for Terran armies as Marines have operational lifespan of about four years.
Stimpack has such a delicate and secretive chemical recipe that it requires a tech lab or academy to develop it en masse. It degrades rather quickly if not kept in good storage system, so mass transport of this drug was deemed too difficult. Most army expeditionary forces simply have to develop it within the conflict zone.
The C-14 Gauss Rifle is potentially one of the best designed weapon in Terran arsenal. It is brutally efficient and cheap that even a small squadron of marines with medical support have been reported to destroy tanks, thick-shelled roaches, and even the mighty ultralisks. Gauss Rifle uses multiple superelectromagnets within the gun barrel to accelerate the charged heavy metal bullet to hypersonic speeds. Uranium-238 shells can essentially shred through most materials and at 30 rounds/sec firing rate, almost anything is fair game to a Marine. It can also be attached to the power suit, and can use the same computerized system that connects the nerves to the suit. With the HUD display and stimpack, marines can fight with extreme accuracy even when fighting agile enemy units like the mutalisk.
Finally, I would like to briefly discuss the combat shield. Although this shield may look like an equipment to block enemy projectile or melee attacks, I hypothesize that it also serves as an auxiliary function of physiological stabilization through chemicals stored in the shield. It is an effective detox-nutrient system that can drain parts of the toxins generated from stimpack, as well as mend some physiological damage. Though nowhere effective as medical support in combat, this shield has been shown to increas marine survivability by 27% and increase stimpack usage by 18%.
These marines, albeit fragile, are extremely potent soldiers in almost any combat situations. There's even a popular saying on Sigmaris Prime that: "Whoever controls the marines, can become the king of the universe."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Phew, this took WAYY too long to write. Next time I'm gonna try to keep it much simpler. I do know that some parts of the Starcraft Lore may conflict with the ideas I'm suggesting here, but everything is propaganda in Terran anyways.
If you played the campaign thoroughly, it was explained why they removed the Vultues from the main force. They had highly unstable engines or something.
On September 22 2012 16:58 RaiKageRyu wrote: If you played the campaign thoroughly, it was explained why they removed the Vultues from the main force. They had highly unstable engines or something.
I liked the Blizzard explanation more for the Vulture. Made me laugh when they said everyone stopped using them, because they leaked a bit to much radiation. (Moves back to BW seeing Raynor sit on one of those things). Still an interesting read. I always loved Blizzard explanations for units, the Cleric one made me pretty sad even (Warcraft1->Warcraft2).
100 meters range on the helion? The flame doesnt reach that much further from the car, you know how far 100 meters is right? id say 10 meters tops or smth
The flamethrower seems to have a range of few hundred meters, but once again this is a wild guess from the gameplay.
Liked the zerg thread a lot more, id like to see what improvements would have to be made to, if the animals really existed, make them truly efficient.
On September 22 2012 19:24 []Phase[] wrote: 100 meters range on the helion? The flame doesnt reach that much further from the car, you know how far 100 meters is right? id say 10 meters tops or smth
And the medivac shouldn't have room for any marines. Stuff isn't up to scale in the game, unless you want to say the assault rifles have a 20m range.
There was an explication on the switch from vulture to helion, and that was because helion's engine were radioactive (the explosion when they die was nuclear) and overall too dangerous.
Note about the gauss rifle: According to the lore, that gauss rifle has 2 firing modes, standard and fast, but the marines cant accurately use the faster firing mode without the strengthening effects of stimpack. This is why the injection of stim increases a marines attack speed. As to how the terrans manages to make a nuke with the blast radius of an artillery shell, im at a loss.
On September 21 2012 14:21 Nazza wrote: Nice read.
Good luck trying to explain why the Crucio does less damage than the Arclite though....
Traded artillery damage for assault damage. Cannon fires faster in assault mode than it used to, much faster. Also, it does less ally splash... which means some weird targetted ai system thingy... probably makes for less volatile impacts when compared to the Arclite.
For why the Crucio Shock Cannon does more damage than the Arclite, I would think that that was obvious. Notice how the Tank mounts up whilst transforming into siege mode? I assume that the barrel of the Tank now contains electromagnetic coils with which to propel its ammunition at greater distances and velocities. That's why the immediate impact damage is much higher - sort of like a Rail Gun or Gauss gun. Chemical explosives cannot do this. As for the Area of Effect damage, the Ammunition would be switched out for something with Ferromagnetic properties. The AoE simply be an explosive after effect.
I like the way you work in the lore and theorycraft! Especially the Hellion vs Vulture part. Though I can't completely agree with saying the Hellion is weaker than the Vulture, at least it's better for crowd control.
If Starcraft 2 was "real" I would probably guess the reason for the Dominion's switch from Vulture to Hellion was due to realizing that they were facing a ton of melee aliens and had to use something that could fight them better.
On September 22 2012 19:24 []Phase[] wrote: 100 meters range on the helion? The flame doesnt reach that much further from the car, you know how far 100 meters is right? id say 10 meters tops or smth
The flamethrower seems to have a range of few hundred meters, but once again this is a wild guess from the gameplay.
Even contemporary existing flamethrower has range of 50-80 meters, and these are the ones carried by people, not mounted on a vehicle. The hellion's true range would actually be about 150meters, but I just wanted to be safe with my conjectures. The range/attack rate/movespeed/size do not scale well with real life, so I try to estimate these.
On September 23 2012 00:31 targ wrote: If Starcraft 2 was "real" I would probably guess the reason for the Dominion's switch from Vulture to Hellion was due to realizing that they were facing a ton of melee aliens and had to use something that could fight them better.
This is also a viable explanation, but usually Terran design philosophy seemed to be "we kill shit from afar" (all units have range except SCV and mules). So this retrogression into firebat model for the vulture , I just attributed to the my version of lore
On September 22 2012 20:25 WhiteDog wrote: There was an explication on the switch from vulture to helion, and that was because helion's engine were radioactive (the explosion when they die was nuclear) and overall too dangerous.
This explanation was just silly on the Blizzard's part and very PG-13. Vulture bikes were used entirely for the duration of Great War and Brood War with very little modification in their structures. If they had problems with the engine, they should have just modified that with hellion-esque engine and kept the vulture concept itself. My guess is that the switch to hellion was covered up with that "ooh this is nuclear, don't use it" propaganda.
On September 22 2012 21:05 Blacktion wrote: Note about the gauss rifle: According to the lore, that gauss rifle has 2 firing modes, standard and fast, but the marines cant accurately use the faster firing mode without the strengthening effects of stimpack. This is why the injection of stim increases a marines attack speed. As to how the terrans manages to make a nuke with the blast radius of an artillery shell, im at a loss.
Ah that makes some sense. I liked my own explanation though About the nukes, the scale in games are really messed up. The nuke radius should be at least equivalent of modern-class nuclear weaponry since this is evident from pictures when the Confederacy mercilessly nuked rebel-controlled planets.
On September 22 2012 21:47 monkybone wrote: Ingenious explanation for the hellion, really intriguing. The story behind the marine was also compelling. I can appreciate your imagination, sir, and I'm looking forward for the next Terran unit!
Blizzard should hire you for their lore panel, seriously.
Haha, thanks. I was trying to do lore for banshee/viking before the marine, but I realized both had similar concepts behind them as hellions. They're better for fighting weak rebel army on the ground than actual massive war-situation. So I'll probably do reaper or medivac. Don't quote me on this though
On September 21 2012 14:21 X3GoldDot wrote: i didnt knew dustin browder drove a vulture
He did. But then he got into an accident, hitting a large pile of rocks and he wasn't wearing a helmet. From that point forward, Browder has had a hatred for rocks, and enjoys watching people destroy them.
Also, the Vulture was removed from the game, and he purchased a Dune Buggy from Hellion Power Systems (http://www.hellionpowersystems.com/ ) with the insurance money he received.
Then I think, why doesn't the hellion cost gas then!
On September 22 2012 21:05 Blacktion wrote: Note about the gauss rifle: According to the lore, that gauss rifle has 2 firing modes, standard and fast, but the marines cant accurately use the faster firing mode without the strengthening effects of stimpack. This is why the injection of stim increases a marines attack speed. As to how the terrans manages to make a nuke with the blast radius of an artillery shell, im at a loss.
Actually like this idea of stim. Sometimes the lore makes some sense!
The marine's gauss rifle is supposed to fire a 60-round burst of projectiles the shape of long steel nails. Other than that, this is pretty interesting to read.
On September 22 2012 22:53 UndoneJin wrote: The Zerg one didn't interest me a lot but I guess since I'm a Terran player this was more intriguing.
I can definitely appreciate that these take a good bit of time
I never understood how people can be solely focused on one race and not be interested in the others. Before I started lurking on TL I had never even considered the idea of sc-racism
On September 23 2012 00:57 desarrisc wrote: Haha, thanks. I was trying to do lore for banshee/viking before the marine, but I realized both had similar concepts behind them as hellions. They're better for fighting weak rebel army on the ground than actual massive war-situation. So I'll probably do reaper or medivac. Don't quote me on this though
Take a look at the campaign cinematics too, they showcase some uses of the units which isn't properly portrayed in gameplay. The banshee seems to be an efficient bomber too, and in one cutscene a few banshees lay waste to an entire battlefield crawling with Zerglings, if I remember correctly.
Looking forward to the Ghost by the way
Those banshees had the shockwave missile battery upgrade so that their attacks fire a burst of missiles in a line.
On September 23 2012 00:31 targ wrote: If Starcraft 2 was "real" I would probably guess the reason for the Dominion's switch from Vulture to Hellion was due to realizing that they were facing a ton of melee aliens and had to use something that could fight them better.
This is also a viable explanation, but usually Terran design philosophy seemed to be "we kill shit from afar" (all units have range except SCV and mules). So this retrogression into firebat model for the vulture , I just attributed to the my version of lore
Well, they probably figured that after replacing the firebat with the marauder, they needed a source of flame-based attacks in their army.
On September 22 2012 23:53 Sacred Reich wrote: For why the Crucio Shock Cannon does more damage than the Arclite, I would think that that was obvious. Notice how the Tank mounts up whilst transforming into siege mode? I assume that the barrel of the Tank now contains electromagnetic coils with which to propel its ammunition at greater distances and velocities. That's why the immediate impact damage is much higher - sort of like a Rail Gun or Gauss gun. Chemical explosives cannot do this. As for the Area of Effect damage, the Ammunition would be switched out for something with Ferromagnetic properties. The AoE simply be an explosive after effect.
The Arclite actually does more damage than the Crucio (70 vs 35 (+15 vs armored)). The Crucio has 50% wider splash radius, 1 longer range, and higher rate of fire (3 s vs 4.12 s). The Crucio cannon uses the same barrel in tank mode and siege mode, requiring less material.
Really enjoying these writeups. Might have been cute to make a note that you don't need to research u238 shells from the academy anymore but that's the only minor touch i can see missing in either great writeup.
i think your forgetting that vultures still exist, just because there not in multiplayer doesnt mean they dont exist multiplayer has nothing to do with lore
ill assume you havent played the campaign, but vultures are an unlockable mission and i know theres one other mission where the opponent (the dominion) deploys vultures
On September 23 2012 03:14 Forikorder wrote: i think your forgetting that vultures still exist, just because there not in multiplayer doesnt mean they dont exist multiplayer has nothing to do with lore
ill assume you havent played the campaign, but vultures are an unlockable mission and i know theres one other mission where the opponent (the dominion) deploys vultures
Yes, vultures still do exist, I've played through single player campaign multiple times, but I'm speaking in terms of multiplayers when I talk about the designs in Terran arsenal. But the mission where the Vultures get unlocked is when Raynor gets the blueprints from Mira Han on the mercenary mining race mission, which is indicative that blueprints for these bikes have become rarer.
I have a general outline for the Reaper that's coming up in few days, but right now I feel really tired prepping for Midterms. Hope it'll be an interesting read :D
On September 23 2012 02:24 JinDesu wrote: Fantastic read.
Then I think, why doesn't the hellion cost gas then!
Vespene gas seems to be a specialized volatile non-hydrocarbon gas, because some planets simply have methane-based atmosphere and mining gaseous hydrocarbon from such environments don't make any sense to me. I think in processing the mineral into seperate metal and organic compounds, you can derive hydrocarbon-based fuel (kerosene, gasoline, etc.) that is used to fuel hellion. I would like to get into details of this, but my knowledge in chemistry in second year uni is still vastly lacking beyond the first few rows of the periodic table.
On September 23 2012 03:14 Forikorder wrote: i think your forgetting that vultures still exist, just because there not in multiplayer doesnt mean they dont exist multiplayer has nothing to do with lore
ill assume you havent played the campaign, but vultures are an unlockable mission and i know theres one other mission where the opponent (the dominion) deploys vultures
Yes, vultures still do exist, I've played through single player campaign multiple times, but I'm speaking in terms of multiplayers when I talk about the designs in Terran arsenal. But the mission where the Vultures get unlocked is when Raynor gets the blueprints from Mira Han on the mercenary mining race mission, which is indicative that blueprints for these bikes have become rarer.
I have a general outline for the Reaper that's coming up in few days, but right now I feel really tired prepping for Midterms. Hope it'll be an interesting read :D
no thats not indicitave, Raynor is running a very rag tag crew that only had the blueprints for marines and had to get tohers as they went theres no evidence at all anywhere that indicates at all that in the actual starcraft universe vultures are any rarer
Hellion analysis misses the obvious difference of mounted/mobile turret vs non-mobile launcher. The vulture's main weapon can only shoot in a forward direction, so it can only fire when the driver is moving directly at the target...a feature that basically makes it an exclusively hit and run vehicle. Sustained attacks would force you to move in a linear direction towards a potentially armed enemy.
The Hellion's turret can swivel, allowing it to strafe targets and "herd" enemy targets. Much like Military Jeeps with mounted guns, you can actively engage the enemy while maintaining constant movement and distance.
On September 23 2012 12:04 Xaddy wrote: Challenge: Explain why the siege tank fires at an angle but that its shell hits the target instantly. Space-time warped projectiles?
Ohh this is challenging. I'm guessing the siege tank charges have a propulsion system after they have been initially fired from the barrel, which explains why these things shoot farther than it can see. Also, this propulsion-tracking system would be required to adjust for different gravity on different planets. In real life these things would take a few seconds to actually hit assuming seige tanks are firing from miles away in seige mode, since gravity and atmospheric drag would be the only thing that would be affecting acceleration after the shell is fired.
But I'll just blame the game animations that are quite not accurate for these things When in doubt blame the graphics.
On September 23 2012 12:04 Xaddy wrote: Challenge: Explain why the siege tank fires at an angle but that its shell hits the target instantly. Space-time warped projectiles?
Ohh this is challenging. I'm guessing the siege tank charges have a propulsion system after they have been initially fired from the barrel, which explains why these things shoot farther than it can see. Also, this propulsion-tracking system would be required to adjust for different gravity on different planets. In real life these things would take a few seconds to actually hit assuming seige tanks are firing from miles away in seige mode, since gravity and atmospheric drag would be the only thing that would be affecting acceleration after the shell is fired.
But I'll just blame the game animations that are quite not accurate for these things When in doubt blame the graphics.
On September 23 2012 03:14 Forikorder wrote: i think your forgetting that vultures still exist, just because there not in multiplayer doesnt mean they dont exist multiplayer has nothing to do with lore
ill assume you havent played the campaign, but vultures are an unlockable mission and i know theres one other mission where the opponent (the dominion) deploys vultures
Yes, vultures still do exist, I've played through single player campaign multiple times, but I'm speaking in terms of multiplayers when I talk about the designs in Terran arsenal. But the mission where the Vultures get unlocked is when Raynor gets the blueprints from Mira Han on the mercenary mining race mission, which is indicative that blueprints for these bikes have become rarer.
I have a general outline for the Reaper that's coming up in few days, but right now I feel really tired prepping for Midterms. Hope it'll be an interesting read :D
no thats not indicitave, Raynor is running a very rag tag crew that only had the blueprints for marines and had to get tohers as they went theres no evidence at all anywhere that indicates at all that in the actual starcraft universe vultures are any rarer
It's just my interpretation as to why they didn't make the continued production in MULTIPLAYER setting. People have differing take on lore, and if you have a more plausible take on its removal on multiplayer, be my guest Would love to see different perspectives.
On September 23 2012 12:14 WolfintheSheep wrote: Hellion analysis misses the obvious difference of mounted/mobile turret vs non-mobile launcher. The vulture's main weapon can only shoot in a forward direction, so it can only fire when the driver is moving directly at the target...a feature that basically makes it an exclusively hit and run vehicle. Sustained attacks would force you to move in a linear direction towards a potentially armed enemy.
The Hellion's turret can swivel, allowing it to strafe targets and "herd" enemy targets. Much like Military Jeeps with mounted guns, you can actively engage the enemy while maintaining constant movement and distance.
Yes, that's why I indicated the fuel source for the hellion's engine and its flamethrower is likely the same. It was likely designed that way to minimize the mass of the vehicle.
Also, the problem of firing a 100 meter flamethrower while moving of very high velocity is, that you can't aim liquid/gas based weapon at such velocity. It leads to very sloppy accuracy compared to projectile based weaponry like bullets on mounted miniguns. Continuous fire while in motion would deplete the weapon fuel really quickly as well compared to strong bursts of well aimed shots.
On September 23 2012 03:14 Forikorder wrote: i think your forgetting that vultures still exist, just because there not in multiplayer doesnt mean they dont exist multiplayer has nothing to do with lore
ill assume you havent played the campaign, but vultures are an unlockable mission and i know theres one other mission where the opponent (the dominion) deploys vultures
Yes, vultures still do exist, I've played through single player campaign multiple times, but I'm speaking in terms of multiplayers when I talk about the designs in Terran arsenal. But the mission where the Vultures get unlocked is when Raynor gets the blueprints from Mira Han on the mercenary mining race mission, which is indicative that blueprints for these bikes have become rarer.
I have a general outline for the Reaper that's coming up in few days, but right now I feel really tired prepping for Midterms. Hope it'll be an interesting read :D
no thats not indicitave, Raynor is running a very rag tag crew that only had the blueprints for marines and had to get tohers as they went theres no evidence at all anywhere that indicates at all that in the actual starcraft universe vultures are any rarer
It's just my interpretation as to why they didn't make the continued production in MULTIPLAYER setting. People have differing take on lore, and if you have a more plausible take on its removal on multiplayer, be my guest Would love to see different perspectives.
mutliplayer is not lore in any way
vultures are not in SC2 multiplayer because they didnt want them in thats all it boils down too they thought the hellion fit SC2 better
It states 77 cents per kilowatt hour of electricity.
1 kilowatt hour = 3 600 000 joules
After searching online I found that the energy is of yamato cannon is in the teratons where "tons" is a unit for energy specific to explosive force.
The energy relased 1 teraton of TNT is 4.18 x 10^21 joules
So take 3 (for the several teratons of force) x 4.18 x 10^21 (amount of energy in one teraton) / 3600000 (amount of joules in a kilowatt hour) x .77 (cost in dollars for kilowatt hour)
which yields $2 682 166 666 666 666.67 or a little over 2.5 quadrillion dollars.
desarrisc don't forget to cross post this on the B.Net forums! They received Ponera's threads pretty well so you should post it too! He actually started there first and then decided to double post everything on TL.
On September 23 2012 12:14 WolfintheSheep wrote: Hellion analysis misses the obvious difference of mounted/mobile turret vs non-mobile launcher. The vulture's main weapon can only shoot in a forward direction, so it can only fire when the driver is moving directly at the target...a feature that basically makes it an exclusively hit and run vehicle. Sustained attacks would force you to move in a linear direction towards a potentially armed enemy.
The Hellion's turret can swivel, allowing it to strafe targets and "herd" enemy targets. Much like Military Jeeps with mounted guns, you can actively engage the enemy while maintaining constant movement and distance.
Yes, that's why I indicated the fuel source for the hellion's engine and its flamethrower is likely the same. It was likely designed that way to minimize the mass of the vehicle.
Also, the problem of firing a 100 meter flamethrower while moving of very high velocity is, that you can't aim liquid/gas based weapon at such velocity. It leads to very sloppy accuracy compared to projectile based weaponry like bullets on mounted miniguns. Continuous fire while in motion would deplete the weapon fuel really quickly as well compared to strong bursts of well aimed shots.
Hence why Hellions don't fire while moving. Even stopping and starting, the design of Hellion weaponry allows for more constant assault than Vulture's.
There's one point to consider in the "why is the newer Crucio cannon weaker" debate; if one assumes that the single-player is a stronger source of lore than the multiplayer, in which balance has to come first, then the Crucio cannons are a tradeoff rather than a directly weaker piece of hardware. The Arclite cannon did what would be 35+35 armored in SC2 terms (medium units always slightly muck this conversion up, but eh) and in the single-player, the Crucio does 60 flat. In that sense, perhaps you could say that in exchange for doing slightly less damage to armored targets, the Crucio has far better performance against light. If you factor in the purchaseable upgrade from single-player then the Crucio cannon is downright beastly.
If you were going to use the multiplayer version, then the Crucio's higher rate of fire and better targeting system than the Arclite would probably be its advantages. Sheer firepower isn't always the only consideration.
In regards to the marine lifespan, when the medic was introduced in broodwar, they left us this little gem:
While expendable, the massive losses of terran Marines during the Great War began to become cost prohibitive. The Medic's use of chemical modifiers has greatly enhanced the survival rate of UED forces, lengthening the expected battlefield life expectancy to over nine seconds.
The Reapers originated initially as a by-product of psychopaths and serial killers who failed to be assimilated by the neural resocialization process like MREP into standard marines. Before the advent of the Reaper Corps, these men were deemed too dangerous to be given substantial projectile weapons. They were often put into SCV suits and sent off on suicide scouting missions or relegated into roles where their psychotic fits of rage would not cause severe harm to allies.
The Reaper Corps was founded by a genius Dominion scientist by the name of Johnathan Ibiks, who saw potential in these hardened psychopathic criminals. He was granted the research grant by the government to make the best use of their aggression and proclivity to reckless actions. First, Dr. Ibiks designed masks for these reapers that not only provide oxygen in foreign environment, but also provide a constant stream of vapourous neurotransmitter that is similar to stimpack. This neurotransmitter amplifies reaper's aggression into a near primal state of mind of "kill-or-be-killed" mentality. Due to this obsession with killing found on these experimental candidates, they were aptly named "Reapers."
Then Dr. Ibiks went on to fit the Reaper candidates with jet propulsion suit system and were given various type of weapons to see how they faired in efficacy within battlefield scenario. The twin-jet propulsion suit system uses liquified nitrogen-oxide derivative as fuel. When released into the atmosphere, the compressed nitrogen turns into high volumes of gas as thrust, whereas the oxygen component amplifies the propulsion through a series of controlled ignition. This projection force is so great that made the Reapers famed for their maximum velocity that rivaled hellions. Also this same propulsion force is used for reapers to scale tall cliffsides within multiple jet-bursts with sufficient training.
"Jump to high ground in case of danger" - Reaper Training Manual 2nd ed. by J. Ibiks
Speaking of training, these jet packs are notoriously difficult to use. The Reaper training procedures takes six to eight months before their deployment onto the field compared to three months of basic training for Marines. Without proper training, reapers can't even move in the direction they desire without crashing into obstacles or losing their balance and plummeting to the earth due to the jet pack.
Due to this difficulty in use of the jet packs, Dr. Ibiks determined from his experiments that P-38 Scythe Gauss pistols were much better alternatives to standard C-14 Automated Gauss Rifle. The standard issue of C-14 had too much of recoil force on the Reaper candidates, and often resulted in the loss of balance on the test subjects. Since reapers had no stable ground to reduce the kickback on the weapon, the accuracy of the C-14 on them were abysmal to say the least. The flamethrower was also considered on the reaper, but the mass of fuel required for both the jet pack system and the flamer was quite considerable for it to be feasible. They would be slower and more vulnerable to enemy projectiles. Hence they were given the P-38 "Scythe" Gauss pistols due to their low kickbacks and portability. Despite its low recoil, when the reaper fires his weapon, it still generates a significant lurching motion, which can be somewhat corrected with training.
The reapers are also fitted with D-8 (deuterium-8) demolition charges that were designed for sabotage of key enemy infrastructure. Judging from the name of the weapon, D-8 charge may be a small nuclear fusion charge that generates high amount of thermal energy and harmful radioactive waves. Although the gameplay suggests instantaneous explosions, these charges have long time before detonation, and are not commonly used against units.
More recently, some underground sources report that the new batch of reapers have been equipped with med-pack derived from zerg regeneration hormones that accelerates cellular renewal. Although unverified, another source suggests that reapers have been given radar system that allows them to see above cliffsides in order to avoid unfavourable engagements if necessary. Whether this system would be effective in preventing engagement is questionable due to the aggressive nature of the reapers.
Reapers are said to serve 24 month in active force after training, and then granted their freedom. From the first batch of reapers from the five years of the Reaper Corp's founding, none has survived more than 6 months in duty. The second batch has faired better with a handful of veteran reapers managing to survive for 23 months in combat duty. Any reapers that manages to survive the one year mark are called among the force as the "Death Heads," but even these resilient soldiers have yet to live more than 23 months. It is not clear whether the Dominion would honour the 24-month service period, there are unconfirmed stories that Death Heads who approach the end of their service are either sent on impossible suicide missions so that their killing talents die with them, and not fall into enemy hands.
"We're all gonna die anyways sometimes, *psychotic laughter* might as well send some to their death a little early!" - Death Head who went by the name of "Leadhead"
On September 24 2012 11:20 desarrisc wrote:"We're all gonna die anyways sometimes, *psychotic laughter* might as well send some to their death a little early!" - Death Head who went by the name of "Leadhead"
On September 23 2012 13:46 Infernal Knight wrote: There's one point to consider in the "why is the newer Crucio cannon weaker" debate; if one assumes that the single-player is a stronger source of lore than the multiplayer, in which balance has to come first, then the Crucio cannons are a tradeoff rather than a directly weaker piece of hardware. The Arclite cannon did what would be 35+35 armored in SC2 terms (medium units always slightly muck this conversion up, but eh) and in the single-player, the Crucio does 60 flat. In that sense, perhaps you could say that in exchange for doing slightly less damage to armored targets, the Crucio has far better performance against light. If you factor in the purchaseable upgrade from single-player then the Crucio cannon is downright beastly.
If you were going to use the multiplayer version, then the Crucio's higher rate of fire and better targeting system than the Arclite would probably be its advantages. Sheer firepower isn't always the only consideration.
I think seige tanks will be one of the later pieces I'll write on just because of the issue of transition in the cannon model from BW to SC2. I think there were a lot of decision making that went into this change in rate of fire, damage, and accuracy, but for the life of me I can't think of a plausible reason for the complete transition to the new cannon.
I like that the writing style and thread style isn't just a carbon copy of mine; you have more organization and clearly put more thought into things, as I am a profoundly lazy individual. It's nice that you differentiate yourself as more than a mere "copy cat" and instead are putting your own personality and flare into it.
On September 25 2012 04:36 Shartugal wrote: This thread is so cool! Really loving the somewhat reasonable logic behind the explantions! Keep 'em coming.
I think it's easier with newer units with no "real detailed lore" behind them.
On September 25 2012 06:21 Ponera wrote: I like that the writing style and thread style isn't just a carbon copy of mine; you have more organization and clearly put more thought into things, as I am a profoundly lazy individual. It's nice that you differentiate yourself as more than a mere "copy cat" and instead are putting your own personality and flare into it.
I can't write in your style haha. I don't have the actual engineering-esque understanding of the stuff I analyse. So I just try to use the limited understanding of second year university chemistry + physics and some international relations/history concepts.
I have a criticism: I would like to see less storytelling (or the same amount, whatever) and more science. I want to hear about how the jetpacks COULD work, how the gauss rifle can be reconciled with having shells (lol), what a yamato cannon actually is, etc. It would be so awesome!
Will upload Wraith tonight/tomorrow I hope. I was originally planning to go directly to Banshee, but Wraith is the key piece in the transition and I wrote a piece on that already
Des, you are awesome. I really love that you are being so ambitious and keeping things up! Just by way of friendly competition: from what River has told me about the Stalker update she has planned for tomorrow, it will be the best and most creative post in the whole series (yes, I count all three threads in the series.) I love your forethought, I did the zerg swarm update on youtube so I could pave the way for overlord and drone, among others. I check your thread daily, I hope for greatness!
Originally, I was going to write about the Banshee, but I realized that the story behind the Banshee would be incomplete without its predecessor: the Wraith.
Wraith is a space superiority fighter that specializes in air-to-air combat, with the focus on surgical precision strikes with the ability to phase out of vision with cloaking field technology. It is equipped with three cylindrical jet propulsion engines: two lateral and one basal. This triple jet system allows for various rotational maneuverability by controlling the level of thrust that is coming out of each engine, and this engine system made the wraiths extremely elusive on the battlefield.
The wraiths are lightly armed as to retain their speed and maneuverability in space. Standard models of wraiths are armed with pods of gemini missiles against aerial opponents and a positron-25mm burst laser system against ground troops. Gemini heat-seeking missiles with their heavy piercing warheads and delayed charges make them potent anti-air weaponry regardless of the target, but they excel at bringing down large spacecrafts that move too slow to dodge the missiles.
Tragically, 25mm burst laser is pitifully weak in comparison to the gemini missiles. It provides minimal level of anti-ground ability by directing a ray of positron at a target to critically disrupt the genomic content in biological targets or damaging any exposed electrical systems in mechanical targets. However, this weapon is based on stellar radiation from nearby stars, and it takes precious seconds to recharge the beam in combat, making it not really viable against targets that can fire back. So wraith pilots are trained to prioritize only injured targets with no anti-air capacity.
The wraith pilots are brave, intelligent civilians that pass a criminal record check. Due to the expensive price tag of the airship as well as the difficulty in operating these special ops ships, wraith pilots have to be particularly smart and well-trained. All pilots reportedly have at least five years of basic spacecraft experience, then undergo two years of brutal combat training. Also, their salary is high, and the pension pays out well if they manage to survive minimum eight years of service.
The design of cloaking field is considered one of the highest achievement in Terran technological advances. The specially-coated wraith covers itself in a strong electromagnetic (EM) field that can trap any incoming UV, visible, and infrared EM waves within the orbit of cloaking field. So when the light waves approach wraith, it doesn't become deflected to be visible by most organisms. As long as the cloaking core remains powered by helios or apollo reactor (though later variants were equipped with extremely powerful Tomahawk power cells), the light remains trapped in the orbit of the cloaking field. The Protoss observer, mothership, arbiter, and dark templar are known to use similar concepts in their cloaking abilities, but their source of energy, psi, is not yet fully understood by the Terran researchers.
This cloaking field can be annuled by the detector systems that use specialized radio waves or strong EM field that counters the one generated by the wraith; scanner sweep and raven uses the former whereas ghost's EMP is an example of the latter. How overseers can detect cloaked units have been a mystery, but there are hypotheses that suggest overseers have an extremely wide spectrum of EM that it can "see".
So you may wonder why these stealthy beauties were discontinued by the Dominion completely.
The main reason was that as Brood War closed out, there were no particular purpose for stealth anti-air spaceship. The valkyrie began to replace this role of AA even in the BW, and eventually the superior, flexible vikings took on the role of striking down enemy spacecrafts from afar. The anti-ground capability of wraith was awfully inadequate to begin with, and against rebel forces who were mostly ground-based, the wraiths were deemed too expensive of investment. Finally, even in air combat, the Protoss became more agile, with the advent of corsair and phoenix, and extremely mobile mutalisks were often too powerful against the wraiths.
By 2504, there were reportedly no more wraiths in the Dominion Air Forces in service. But the recent leak of top-secret reports suggest that there are couple of divisions still remaining that are stealthily eliminating any enemy airships against the might of the Dominion.
"In space, we were the strongest and the bravest mother****ers. Dodging muta spit and corsair beams, we blew up anything that flew up. In my career, my squadron even took down a rogue battlecruiser and couple of carriers with little loss. But near planetary surface, we're like fish out of water. My friend plummeted to the ground when he tried to destroy a couple of damaged goliaths with the pitiful flashlight gun [burst laser] we had." - Col. Pats Lento, a retired veteran wraith pilot in his banned memoir, Silent Squadron
Interesting One would assume that the advent of the banshee had reasons similar to that of the hellion - that it is far more suitable for shock-and-awe bombing runs to keep rebellious factions in check and civilians in fear.
On September 29 2012 18:59 iKill wrote: One would assume that the advent of the banshee had reasons similar to that of the hellion - that it is far more suitable for shock-and-awe bombing runs to keep rebellious factions in check and civilians in fear.
I believe that's exactly what they say in the WOL-Campaign.
I also like to think of the wraith more as a space fighter, while the dominion developed more specialized flyers for atmospheric combat over time which replaced it. The Banshee and even the viking due to it's versatility are more efficient in ground combat than the rather weak lasers of the wraith. In addition to that the viking proves to be a good air-air fighter too. While beeing more bulky and probably less fast, it looks like having a stronger hull, which let it endure more anti-air fire from the ground. The wraith was much more agile but seems to be more vulnerable to combat damage..so it's probably more specialized in dogfights and not something you'd like to use in a full scale battle.
On September 29 2012 18:59 iKill wrote: One would assume that the advent of the banshee had reasons similar to that of the hellion - that it is far more suitable for shock-and-awe bombing runs to keep rebellious factions in check and civilians in fear.
I believe that's exactly what they say in the WOL-Campaign.
I also like to think of the wraith more as a space fighter, while the dominion developed more specialized flyers for atmospheric combat over time which replaced it. The Banshee and even the viking due to it's versatility are more efficient in ground combat than the rather weak lasers of the wraith. In addition to that the viking proves to be a good air-air fighter too. While beeing more bulky and probably less fast, it looks like having a stronger hull, which let it endure more anti-air fire from the ground. The wraith was much more agile but seems to be more vulnerable to combat damage..so it's probably more specialized in dogfights and not something you'd like to use in a full scale battle.
You two are completely correct. I originally intended to put that idea into Banshee writeup so I decided to not put it into here for Wraith. Also, Banshee uses a different propulsion system and is incapable of interspace flights, the trade-off is that it can be extremely effective in low orbital ground combat.
I love it how you explain away the vultures obvious superiority compared to the hellions, it's not easy to rationalize the ass-backwards Browderian design.
These threads are so cool to read through, I really enjoyed your analysis, and I hope to see you examinate other terran units as well (The medivac next please)
I love the thread! Been lurking around for a while now. Really like the analysis and history/background But I had an idea that the cloaking was from bent light beams( is that even possible?) but it was too energy-expensive to bend light other than the visible spectrum, so overseers, (which can, I assume, see infrared, etc.) can see through it, whilst others only see a mild shimmering distorted effect.
I'm pretty sure spider mines killed more friendly units than enemies over the course of Brood War. I imagine all the vulture drivers found themselves rather unpopular each time a Zealot ran in towards some tanks.
On September 30 2012 06:54 poogpoogs wrote: I love the thread! Been lurking around for a while now. Really like the analysis and history/background But I had an idea that the cloaking was from bent light beams( is that even possible?) but it was too energy-expensive to bend light other than the visible spectrum, so overseers, (which can, I assume, see infrared, etc.) can see through it, whilst others only see a mild shimmering distorted effect.
Thanks for reading!
As explained in the wraith thread, yes, cloaking units essentially trap nearby electromagnetic waves (UV/Visible/Infrared light) within an orbit of the electromagnetic field around the vehicle/ghost. Essentially it's like creating a mini static black hole around the unit that light can't escape from as long as the cloaking field is active. Overseers seem to bypass this by being able to "see" through almost the entire spectrum of EM waves or they must use some sound/pressure based sensing.
On September 30 2012 13:29 Ribbon wrote: I'm pretty sure spider mines killed more friendly units than enemies over the course of Brood War. I imagine all the vulture drivers found themselves rather unpopular each time a Zealot ran in towards some tanks.
Oh yeah, most vehicle operators are really hated among their own forces. Often the conspiracy goes that seige tanks were dealing more damage to allied units than to enemy soldiers due to their massive blast range, and that vulture's spider mines often malfunction and target allied units as well.
Spider mines are loaded with bio-mechanical-scanning sequence that detects whether the target is registered as allied or not, but these things malfunctioned a lot, so the marines and firebats never really trusted crossing a minefield set by allied vulture squadron. Also, protoss zealots are absolutely crazy with no respect for their own lives, and they'd drag these mines sometimes up to a kilometer to kill a tank for Aiur.
On September 30 2012 16:04 Meta wrote: Why don't they just make the missiles point downward?
It's designed for interspace combat where heat/electronic signature of the enemy target is clear even from afar, but around most planetary systems the planet's specific temperature/magnetic field messes with any near orbital targeting. Also, missiles are too expensive for ground targets that it might or might not hit.
Kinda late to the party, but : the vulture was prone to nuclear material leakage (or accidental explosion, can't remember which). The Hyperion engineer explains so in the WoL campaign mission where you get the vultures.
The Wraith/Banshee would have been a effective combo, maybe more effective than Viking/Banshee. The Viking is still very fragile (just 125 hit points, just like the wraith). I also don't like how Vikings are too slow to escape effectively from Stimpack Marines or Blinking Stalkers, which both rip light air units to shreds.
On September 30 2012 22:48 Archonn wrote: The Wraith/Banshee would have been a effective combo, maybe more effective than Viking/Banshee. The Viking is still very fragile (just 125 hit points, just like the wraith). I also don't like how Vikings are too slow to escape effectively from Stimpack Marines or Blinking Stalkers, which both rip light air units to shreds.
The key point about the viking is its range. Reduce it and its efficiency would have been reduced drastically. I don't know the range of wraiths, but i assume it is much lower. Anyway, consider how useless it would be in TvP: With an obs the stalkers would shoot them down instantly, and if any of them have energy they would get feedbacked. In TvZ they would just clump up even more than vikings do.
That's why I used the comsat scan in TvP back in Sc1. You could just scan, and then just kill the Observers in just around 3 seconds (If it's just one Observer, a group of Wraiths could just one shot it and the stalkers could only hope to just get one volley of attack). Now the wraiths have a weak ground attack for killing the helpless ground units, but that would not be a issue if you had some Banshees around. You could argue that Vikings snipe obs for Banshees too, but without the support of a large enough ground army, the stalkers would just blink near them. Since Viking lack the speed, they would just get shot down like sitting ducks.
And if the Protoss player has Templars out already, then it's very likely Terran player would have Ghosts by then which could EMP them, preventing the use of feedback or psi storm.
In TvZ, Wraiths would be even more effective than they were in Sc1 because not every Overlord can detect cloaked units now.
On September 30 2012 22:48 Archonn wrote: The Wraith/Banshee would have been a effective combo, maybe more effective than Viking/Banshee. The Viking is still very fragile (just 125 hit points, just like the wraith). I also don't like how Vikings are too slow to escape effectively from Stimpack Marines or Blinking Stalkers, which both rip light air units to shreds.
The key point about the viking is its range. Reduce it and its efficiency would have been reduced drastically. I don't know the range of wraiths, but i assume it is much lower. Anyway, consider how useless it would be in TvP: With an obs the stalkers would shoot them down instantly, and if any of them have energy they would get feedbacked. In TvZ they would just clump up even more than vikings do.
That's why I used the comsat scan in TvP back in Sc1. You could just scan, and then just kill the Observers in just around 3 seconds (If it's just one Observer, a group of Wraiths could just one shot it and the stalkers could only hope to just get one volley of attack). Now the wraiths have a weak ground attack for killing the helpless ground units, but that would not be a issue if you had some Banshees around. You could argue that Vikings snipe obs for Banshees too, but without the support of a large enough ground army, the stalkers would just blink near them. Since Viking lack the speed, they would just get shot down like sitting ducks.
And if the Protoss player has Templars out already, then it's very likely Terran player would have Ghosts by then which could EMP them, preventing the use of feedback or psi storm.
In TvZ, Wraiths would be even more effective than they were in Sc1 because not every Overlord can detect cloaked units now.
I try my best to explain Terran unit designs in context of the lore rather from the gameplay, because sc1/2 gameplay are all based on low-orbital combat situations (not much space-space battles without ground troops). Essentially, in space-based combat, vikings would be able to devastate large capital ships, overlords, and other flying things much better than a wraith would.
On low-orbital combat scenarios, yes, wraiths/banshees would kick ass so much. Especially since overlords lost the ability to detect in exchange for ability to poop creep.
I should love this thread, but some of the reasoning is a bit rubbish :p The cloak field idea is so silly - particularly when you consider that it would be countered, in seconds, by acoustic sonar and radar (since the field couldn't trap radio waves due to communication).
Much easier to just invoke meta-materials and claim that the rest is due to low profile cold thrusters, ramjets, unusual acoustic profiling and stealth plating.
On September 30 2012 22:48 Archonn wrote: The Wraith/Banshee would have been a effective combo, maybe more effective than Viking/Banshee. The Viking is still very fragile (just 125 hit points, just like the wraith). I also don't like how Vikings are too slow to escape effectively from Stimpack Marines or Blinking Stalkers, which both rip light air units to shreds.
The key point about the viking is its range. Reduce it and its efficiency would have been reduced drastically. I don't know the range of wraiths, but i assume it is much lower. Anyway, consider how useless it would be in TvP: With an obs the stalkers would shoot them down instantly, and if any of them have energy they would get feedbacked. In TvZ they would just clump up even more than vikings do.
That's why I used the comsat scan in TvP back in Sc1. You could just scan, and then just kill the Observers in just around 3 seconds (If it's just one Observer, a group of Wraiths could just one shot it and the stalkers could only hope to just get one volley of attack). Now the wraiths have a weak ground attack for killing the helpless ground units, but that would not be a issue if you had some Banshees around. You could argue that Vikings snipe obs for Banshees too, but without the support of a large enough ground army, the stalkers would just blink near them. Since Viking lack the speed, they would just get shot down like sitting ducks.
And if the Protoss player has Templars out already, then it's very likely Terran player would have Ghosts by then which could EMP them, preventing the use of feedback or psi storm.
In TvZ, Wraiths would be even more effective than they were in Sc1 because not every Overlord can detect cloaked units now.
I try my best to explain Terran unit designs in context of the lore rather from the gameplay, because sc1/2 gameplay are all based on low-orbital combat situations (not much space-space battles without ground troops). Essentially, in space-based combat, vikings would be able to devastate large capital ships, overlords, and other flying things much better than a wraith would.
Agreed, especially since the Viking has an amazing missile range.
On October 01 2012 06:36 Evangelist wrote: I should love this thread, but some of the reasoning is a bit rubbish :p The cloak field idea is so silly - particularly when you consider that it would be countered, in seconds, by acoustic sonar and radar (since the field couldn't trap radio waves due to communication).
Much easier to just invoke meta-materials and claim that the rest is due to low profile cold thrusters, ramjets, unusual acoustic profiling and stealth plating.
the thing about the sonar/radar is is that the comsat scan and the raven have it, but probably for the purpose of economy, they don't put them in to other terran units. although,your idea on stealth tech is perfectly viable, but the wraith can on and off cloak,with out its speed or shape being changed like your ideas propose.
On October 01 2012 06:36 Evangelist wrote: I should love this thread, but some of the reasoning is a bit rubbish :p The cloak field idea is so silly - particularly when you consider that it would be countered, in seconds, by acoustic sonar and radar (since the field couldn't trap radio waves due to communication).
Much easier to just invoke meta-materials and claim that the rest is due to low profile cold thrusters, ramjets, unusual acoustic profiling and stealth plating.
Oh I actually missed this post. Acoustic sonar can't travel through vacuum like space. Radar only detects large enough spaceships, and design of a wraith can simply counter this (like contemporary stealth fighters).
Also, sorry for the lack of posts. Crazy midterm season.
EPT![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081221031459/starcraft/images/e/e2/Hellion_SC2_DevRend1.jpg)
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About the nukes, the scale in games are really messed up. The nuke radius should be at least equivalent of modern-class nuclear weaponry since this is evident from pictures when the Confederacy mercilessly nuked rebel-controlled planets.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9mk3P.jpg)
creds to Emil Erlandsson ![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100927095256/starcraft/images/4/42/JetPack_SC2_Icon1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110810020617/starcraft/images/d/dd/D8Charge_SC2_Rend1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/7/72/Combat_Drugs.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/3/32/Scanner_sweep.png)
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071115104805/starcraft/images/3/3b/Reaper_SC2_Art2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/19739/770319-wraith_1_super.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/c/c9/Wraith_SC1_Game2.png)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/8/83/Wraith_SC2_Head1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/2/27/Cloak.png)
![[image loading]](http://classic.battle.net/images/battle/scc/protoss/pix/units/screenshots/c02.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/1/1f/Wraith_SC1_CineOpenRebellion1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/4/47/Wraith_SC1_CineInauguration1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/d/d7/Wraith_SC1_HeadAnim1.gif)
