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On September 13 2012 05:50 insanet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:48 Kasu wrote:
Can someone clear this up for me? As I understand it, MoW doesn't employt players, it is providing them with accomodation & food. In which case all this undisclosed stuff in the contract, stream revenue over a flat fee and refusal to let a lawyer look over it is a pile of shit. Any landlord tries that kind of shit, he can fuck right off. But I guess all it comes down to is Fuzer going home feeling shat on. Fuzer never asked for all the money. read again. he did the math for what would be fair to get back.
It's not fair.
If player X asked if he could join MoW and MoW said "no, we're full, since Fuzer is here" and Fuzer then pulled out MoW is at a loss (since X would've paid). This is why you cant cancel most reservations after a certain timeframe (or only get a part of your cash back). So demanding all money (as in: 24/30 days since he stayed for 6) back after he moved out if imho not fair (or: not normal).
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I like Destinys statement btw...its the most objective thing you will probably read in this thread.
That Skypelog is pretty sick though.
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On September 13 2012 05:50 omgimonfire15 wrote:
Why are people blowing up over destiny's comments? All he is saying is that no matter how immoral, dickish, and evil the MOW boss is, unless it is proven he has done something illegal, no legal action can be taken. He's not excusing his actions or saying that what he did is okay. He is saying legally, there is nothing that was done wrong (at least from what we know). You can't sue someone if you gave them money and didn't sign a contract or get evidence that you made a legal transaction.
What are you Destiny's white knight? I didn't really see anyone "blow up over destiny's comment". If anything people were interested on his point of view and clarification. Still all of this is here say and it doesn't matter until MoW comes out with a statement.
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Honestly he shouldn't have even moved in without signing the contract! The way I understand it the boss gave him a deadline to sign or leave (because he waited a month for it and that was enough). The player wasn't responsible enough to deal with that earlier.
On the other points, he shouldn't expect to have someone guide him through practice, meals and exercise. He should be mature enough to do that on his own!
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On September 13 2012 05:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Everyone should let MoW say their piece. In the meantime, don't worry about Ret.
The boss has spoken.
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in east europe ( talking from romania )
you can live with
200 euro ( food if you want i can link where to order and what and il show you how you can get food with less then 7 euro a day),
100 euro paying all facility ( internet / electricity / water and anything other , actualy i pay monthly 80 euro and have 20 euro for stuff that breaks like neons ),
with 100 euro you can rent a house with 1 room , with 200 euro you can rent an apartment with 2 rooms * to site with houses * .
so basicaly if you wanna have fun put another 100 euro and you can go out ocasionaly .
so total an apartment with everything you want so you can practice total in east europe is = 400 euro .
i have a friend polish telling me in poland they are more poor then in romania . i dont know but i just say how is here . so ye in east europe is very cheap . 600 euro is BOSS MODE . ppl getting paid here 250 euro / month .
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On September 13 2012 05:55 Thinasy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:46 chindy wrote:On September 13 2012 05:36 TOCHMY wrote:On September 13 2012 05:31 MagicalGirl wrote:On September 13 2012 05:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote:
12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic. Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways. MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit). I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal. I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest. People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances. Bro, when I lived with my parents overseas we were renting 8 bedroom 4 bath houses for 2500 euros a month in German and English cities. I know this is all anecdotal evidence, but I'm just letting you know that with 7200 euros a month (probably more since they are getting some streaming revenue, maybe some sponsors and not every player is probably paying the same amount) you should EASILY be able to afford something like the MoW setup. Easily. Easily, especially in Poland, quite a cheap country to live in For those people who dont know anything about european prices etc...What are 600 € Swizerland: u can´t even affort your food per month for 600€ not to mention any kind of living or dont even think of having good food. a small cup of coffee costs about 7sFr(5€/6,5dollar) the Same with Sweden Norway/maybe GB; Austria/Germany/FR/North of Italy: you could affor the rent for a very small appartement if it is not in the center of a town or anywhere near a famous street or building or sight. but thats it no food or anything.... PL/Czech rep./Hungary/mb a few other eastern european countries: 600€ is enough. and they get that from every player + sponsors. Am I reading this correctly, you're saying you cant afford food for a month for 600Euro's in Sweden?
That's 20 euros per day. I could probably eat quality beef sirloin every day in Finland with that 
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On September 13 2012 05:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Everyone should let MoW say their piece. In the meantime, don't worry about Ret.
Send him to Korea =)
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I'm a student in sweden, living off roughly 950 euro a month. I can afford my rent at 520 euro (internet etc included), food, clothing and all that other jazz
Food for 600 euro? Wtf are you eating D:
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On September 13 2012 05:57 Martinni wrote:
Honestly he shouldn't have even moved in without signing the contract! The way I understand it the boss gave him a deadline to sign or leave (because he waited a month for it and that was enough). The player wasn't responsible enough to deal with that earlier.
On the other points, he shouldn't expect to have someone guide him through practice, meals and exercise. He should be mature enough to do that on his own!
When the deadline came same day as it was.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 13 2012 05:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Everyone should let MoW say their piece. In the meantime, don't worry about Ret.
I trust that neither you nor Jos would ever get into some shitty contract with crazy demands like that, so I'm not exactly worried. That said, I hope MoW speaks soon.
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On September 13 2012 05:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Everyone should let MoW say their piece. In the meantime, don't worry about Ret.
Ready and waiting.
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10 years? That's just ridiculous. I wouldn't sign it on those grounds alone. Let alone any other suspicious language.
If (and it is a big if) this is true, then lawyers would have a field day with that contract. Odds are it wouldn't hold up in court. However, I'm not sure it would be worth taking to court by either party. By the time everything is said and done, it would cost you more to take it to court then it was worth. Unless, you live in a country which allows you to sue for additional damages.
I also think it's poor business practice for anyone to expect a contract to be signed without giving them the opportunity to be reviewed by an attorney if they wish it. Furthermore, my guess is the contract stipulates money transactions and if the contract was never signed, then the money should be refunded minus the 6 days you lived there. Otherwise, he is in violation of his own contract.
I would also add that based on the correspondence "Boss" isn't up to the task of running an organization and or dealing with these types of situations.
On a personal note and how I feel about the situation, instead of recreating the wheel, I will just quote Quanticfograw. I think his last sentence says it best.
On September 13 2012 05:36 Quanticfograw wrote:
TBH if the majority of esports were ran more like a business this wouldn't be an issue because having something in writing or not having receipts for reimbursement would never occur. I am not saying that the MoW house is correct here but I really am still shocked at the amount of people who want money from the scene, some even put money into the scene, and still don't treat it like a financial transaction. Until eSports is bound by more professional contractual obligations this dumb shit will continue to happen.
**edit**
Destiny:
As for the "not allowed to stay at another house in 10 years," that's not true, you're just not allowed to start your own team house in 10 years. It's kind of strange, maybe, for the e-sports world, but that's a pretty standard non-competition clause from the business world.
If it states you are not allowed to start your own team, that is entirely different than what was stated in the OP and therefore the ramifications are different. As Desitny points out, this is a standard non-compete clause. You might argue 10 years is too long, but never the less this is very common in business practices. Typically, the time can range from 5 to 15 years.
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On September 13 2012 05:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Everyone should let MoW say their piece. In the meantime, don't worry about Ret.
This. Thank you Nazgul, finally a voice of reason
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On September 13 2012 05:41 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:22 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 05:16 DGB.Zerok wrote:On September 13 2012 04:52 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 04:50 DGB.Zerok wrote:On September 13 2012 04:44 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 04:20 Mackus wrote:On September 13 2012 04:15 Destiny wrote:
The Boss guy looks like kind of a dick here, but honestly, a contract is a contract.
When I was first contacted by MoW, my very first action was to request a contract and read through all of the fine terms.
As for the "not allowed to stay at another house in 10 years," that's not true, you're just not allowed to start your own team house in 10 years. It's kind of strange, maybe, for the e-sports world, but that's a pretty standard non-competition clause from the business world. It's meant to protect businesses from revealing practices to an employee and then having that employee run off to start their own business to compete using everything they learned from that previous business. Not saying it's right or wrong in this circumstance, just giving some background.
Yeah, there are some other clauses. Financial compensation they want, minimum number of stream hours, etc...etc...But to complain about all of these after the fact..? I can't understand why anyone would move to a house and not read the contract first, seems kind of strange. You're missing the important part where he's paid a months rent without signing a contract and has been asked to leave. This is going to sound incredibly dickish, and it definitely doesn't excuse MoW from acting dickish, but there's nothing to keep them from keeping the money. You never, ever, ever, ever, ever give someone money without signing a contract first or at least asking for a receipt. Basically yes but there has to be some morality in this fcking world. If I am gonna ask for receipt when I am buying tobacco to prevent getting my box then fuck that kind of people. I understand that legally mow can keep money and negate any kind of verbal contract, but Fuzer is stupid if we have not some kind of chatlog's either Skype or MSN with mow "Boss". Morality is fine for school and church, but please don't ever expose yourself in the financial world expecting others to ask "decent". You'll wind up fucked 7 ways to Sunday. I understand you. But I am a attorney at law myself so I learnt about moral 4 freacking years. I didn't said this is something weird or unusual, but the way you are justifying this "legal fraud" is funny. Morality is very important for self-improvement, interhuman relationship and so on. Thats why I said fuck this ugly world, not because I am some kind of a cliche guy, but many people here think this is very non standard. I cant express because my english is not really good  This is very retarded situation, but nothing non common. I understand what you're saying, brotha, and I agree with you 100%. It's a nasty as fuck world out there, and there is NO good reason to act like a dick to someone. That being said, though, you lock your car every time you get out of it, no? There's a reason why we take precautions against immorality. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. I've been following the thread and taking an interest in your posts, Destiny. Because It seems that you're preaching the hard realities and truths of business to people that may be ignorant. This is all well and good, but I wonder if you are unbalanced to focus most of your energy on the legalities of this issue, rather than the context. Being in the business world for some time, I can draw on my experience to state that the foundation of business is legality, logic and math. However, what separates good business-people from the mediocre and poor has (in my experience) been spirit, attitude, good-will and cooperation. I think it's vaild that this gentleman is writing about his experience on this forum. His experience, if true, illustrates that this gaming house may treat it's customers poorly. This may be important information to many people who are considering patronizing the Ministry of Win. Though all the information on Fuzer's experience is not yet available, we can at least ascertain from his words that he felt mistreated, disrespected and misguided. In my book it's definitely worthy of a post and a follow up. It doesn't make much sense to me that you are defending the legality of the business relationship rather than focusing on the original issue at hand - that the Ministry of Win treated Fuzer poorly.
I 100% agree with you. I'm only trying to sound as cold/factual as possible because the only way people end up in situations like this is out of naivety. Obviously the "right" thing for MoW to do would be to at least pro-rate him for his expenses. But in the real world, and I'm sure you know this, you should never ever ever put yourself in a situation where you can be royally screwed and then expect the other side to act moral.
Again, I agree with you. There are two sides to reality - one is how we want people to act, and one is how we should be prepared for people to react. Just because there are moral reasons not to rape doesn't mean a girl should get wasted with a bunch of guys she doesn't really know and go in "expecting" the best. Same reason I don't leave my car unlocked when I park it outside at night. Same reason I would never pay anyone $1200 in rent without at least getting a receipt or something first.
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On September 13 2012 05:53 Inzult wrote:Show nested quote +
For those people who dont know anything about european prices etc...What are 600 €
Swizerland: u can´t even affort your food per month for 600€ not to mention any kind of living or dont even think of having good food. a small cup of coffee costs about 7sFr(5€/6,5dollar)
the Same with Sweden Norway/maybe GB;
Austria/Germany/FR/North of Italy:
you could affor the rent for a very small appartement if it is not in the center of a town or anywhere near a famous street or building or sight. but thats it no food or anything....
PL/Czech rep./Hungary/mb a few other eastern european countries:
600€ is enough. and they get that from every player + sponsors.
I live in Sweden with the rent at about 380 euros. You can easily live here with 600 euros but you will not have alot of money
Huh where do you live and when can I become your new roommate? you cant live decently with 600 euros in a mid population french town, and I went to Copenhagen and Malmo, you could just tell that everything was 30% higher, even compared to Paris, I mean, how?
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On September 13 2012 05:51 chindy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:50 karpo wrote:On September 13 2012 05:46 chindy wrote:On September 13 2012 05:36 TOCHMY wrote:On September 13 2012 05:31 MagicalGirl wrote:On September 13 2012 05:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote:
12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic. Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways. MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit). I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal. I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest. People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances. Bro, when I lived with my parents overseas we were renting 8 bedroom 4 bath houses for 2500 euros a month in German and English cities. I know this is all anecdotal evidence, but I'm just letting you know that with 7200 euros a month (probably more since they are getting some streaming revenue, maybe some sponsors and not every player is probably paying the same amount) you should EASILY be able to afford something like the MoW setup. Easily. Easily, especially in Poland, quite a cheap country to live in For those people who dont know anything about european prices etc...What are 600 € Swizerland: u can´t even affort your food per month for 600€ not to mention any kind of living or dont even think of having good food. a small cup of coffee costs about 7sFr(5€/6,5dollar) the Same with Sweden Norway/maybe GB; Not true of sweden. A large coffe from a high end place is like 4 bucks. You'd have to eat out every day of the week to spend 600€ a month on food here. Yea but you dont eat meat or drink any alcohol... 
Yeah...... just admit that u where full of shit when u said that u couldnt live on 600€ in sweden.... I would say that 80% of the ppl btw the age of 20-24 live on less
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On September 13 2012 05:56 chindy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:53 karpo wrote:On September 13 2012 05:51 chindy wrote:On September 13 2012 05:50 karpo wrote:On September 13 2012 05:46 chindy wrote:On September 13 2012 05:36 TOCHMY wrote:On September 13 2012 05:31 MagicalGirl wrote:On September 13 2012 05:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote:
12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic. Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways. MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit). I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal. I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest. People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances. Bro, when I lived with my parents overseas we were renting 8 bedroom 4 bath houses for 2500 euros a month in German and English cities. I know this is all anecdotal evidence, but I'm just letting you know that with 7200 euros a month (probably more since they are getting some streaming revenue, maybe some sponsors and not every player is probably paying the same amount) you should EASILY be able to afford something like the MoW setup. Easily. Easily, especially in Poland, quite a cheap country to live in For those people who dont know anything about european prices etc...What are 600 € Swizerland: u can´t even affort your food per month for 600€ not to mention any kind of living or dont even think of having good food. a small cup of coffee costs about 7sFr(5€/6,5dollar) the Same with Sweden Norway/maybe GB; Not true of sweden. A large coffe from a high end place is like 4 bucks. You'd have to eat out every day of the week to spend 600€ a month on food here. Yea but you dont eat meat or drink any alcohol... I'm pretty sure i do. Even if i buy expensive breakfast and lunch out it's still not close to that kind of cash. damn that i was totally wrong about sweden but im sure im right about CH cus i live near the border in austria. and im pretty sure im right about Norway cus i talked with a few norwegians about that too
poland is like the cheapest country in europe... 7.2k is alot.
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On September 13 2012 05:56 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:50 insanet wrote:On September 13 2012 05:48 Kasu wrote:
Can someone clear this up for me? As I understand it, MoW doesn't employt players, it is providing them with accomodation & food. In which case all this undisclosed stuff in the contract, stream revenue over a flat fee and refusal to let a lawyer look over it is a pile of shit. Any landlord tries that kind of shit, he can fuck right off. But I guess all it comes down to is Fuzer going home feeling shat on. Fuzer never asked for all the money. read again. he did the math for what would be fair to get back. It's not fair. If player X asked if he could join MoW and MoW said "no, we're full, since Fuzer is here" and Fuzer then pulled out MoW is at a loss (since X would've paid). This is why you cant cancel most reservations after a certain timeframe (or only get a part of your cash back). So demanding all money (as in: 24/30 days since he stayed for 6) back after he moved out if imho not fair (or: not normal).
This is true too. MoW could argue that Fuzer entered into the contract by performance, since he moved there, gave them money, and started training. He then decided to break the contract, and therefore MoW is harmed by his non-performance since they lose the streaming revenues and they will be unable to find a guy to come to MoW immediately replace Fuzer.
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On September 13 2012 05:50 omgimonfire15 wrote:
Why are people blowing up over destiny's comments? All he is saying is that no matter how immoral, dickish, and evil the MOW boss is, unless it is proven he has done something illegal, no legal action can be taken. He's not excusing his actions or saying that what he did is okay. He is saying legally, there is nothing that was done wrong (at least from what we know). You can't sue someone if you gave them money and didn't sign a contract or get evidence that you made a legal transaction.
Why do people INSIST on defending wrong statements with the tone of absolute truth? You CAN sue someone if you gave them money for a verbal contract, the only question is if you can prove your accusations (and frankly often you can, in this specific case you easily can in fact, it happens quite often in regards to renting a flat) and if you are willing to invest the effort needed (court proceedings aren't cheap either and take time).
Let me be 100% clear:
Under polish law verbal contracts exist and are just as binding as written contracts! If you move into a house it is standard procedure to pay the first month in advance (in fact in many cases you pay 3 months in advance as a deposit), often without signing a contract. In this specific case the contract of MoW was a bit more involved than a standard rental agreement so Fuzer asked to send it to his lawyer (standard procedure as well, and NO destiny it is NOT common that you have to sign a NDA to get legal assitance regarding a contract).
The op is not 100% clear on the next point, but what I understand is that his lawyer either never got it or only received it after serious trouble, Fuzer decided he could not sign that contract (so far that is still within his rights). MoW decided he has to move out (also well within their rights) BUT if they want to behave legally they now have to give him this months rent back (the percentage not consumed if they want to be precise). Anything else they did would be illegal.
Obviously we only have 1 side of the story so far, so the situation might be completly different, but make no mistake the actions described in the OP are flat out illegal no question about it. They might be unfounded allegations, that I cannot judge.
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EPT
