On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok.
No, he isnt saying that. He is saying that without proof that Fuzer sent them the money how do you know he sent them the money? Easiest thing for Fuzer to do would be to show a cash withdrawal from his bank in the amount he says he gave them and then show, by the fact that he was allowed to live and train at the house and was fed, that he transferred that money to MoW.
Well then he needs to learn how to read. "if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny."
That is not what he is saying. He is saying that if Fuzer cant prove that MoW has his money, by the evidence of a signed contract or a receipt of payment, then he cannot prove, legally, that he in fact transferred that money over to MoW.
And like I said, the fact that both MoW and Fuzer subsequently acted as if the contract was fulfilled, and the payment was transferred, there is definitely some proof that Fuzer did in fact transfer the money. However, just because they started performance does not mean that the money transfer was complete. MoW could argue that they have not yet received the money but decided to perform their side of the contract because they thought Fuzer was going to pay -- in other words MoW gave him a non-interest bearing loan for the 6 days that 'covered' his room and board n anticipation of receiving the funds subsequently.
On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote: 12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait
You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic.
Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways.
MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit).
I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal.
I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest.
People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances.
Where the hell do you live?
Hi, I'm from NYC and have also lived in Buffalo. Rent with utilities and living expenses are $900 and $500 respectively if you cook. You must be wealthy or... idk. The numbers you're giving out sounds ridiculous really. SOme of the numbers you give make sense, but if you really search around then it's more than possible.
Anyways, if what you say is true for yourself then come here to Buffalo or NYC (which is apparently buttfuck nowhere). haha.
I'm confused. So you calculated them to be around $1,400, and that's most likely for an area without all the amenities that the MoW provides. Also, it many places come unfurnished. MoW comes furnished with a ridiculous amount of assets. So you're comparing $1,400 at a place you're talking about (and that's WITHOUT the food being prepared for you, mind you) to a measely 600 Euros per month? What are you even talking about?
Dude... I currently am living in Buffalo for $500. LOLs.
$300 for rent (furnished too) and $50 for utilities and $150 for food/living expenses (I cook).
I live in Chinatown in Manhattan. I pay rent for about $700 and the food there is cheap actually.
Clear? Sorry if I confused you. But I really have no idea where you got your numbers from. If that's your life then come to Buffalo or something.
$300 for rent in a furnished place would be very low for a city, but I have no idea what type of city Buffalo is, or if you're located in a decently crime free area. You're telling me that $50 will cover your Internet, cable, water, electric + gas bill, garbage fee? If so, then yes, I have highly underestimated these costs.
Your $150 assessment is entirely irrelevant because they are providing a food service, and because they chose to do so, must be included in the cost assessment. Whether or not the people staying in the MoW utilize it is irrelevant if the service is provided.
I have personally lived in a wide variety of situations, from spending $375 per month to split a room with 2 other people, to living in a makeshift room sectioned of by bookshelves with another person for $250 a month where my bed didn't even fit in the room completely and had to tucked under the other bed, to $540 a month for my own room in a much less populated area, to now spending $922 per month for a master bedroom of my own. Of course, I am aware that $922 is far more than most people spend, that was more so to just respond to your question of "where do you live."
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok.
By Destiny's logic, if i can't prove something then it's false. Haha.
No, if you can't prove something, then you can't prove something. He is showing how ridiculous the situation is with a ridiculous statement following the same line of logic. Its a very easy tool to see if there is flaw of logic.
You can actually prove it. Report to authorities->they investigate->find no cash register->tax evasion->freeze bank accounts-> find extra 1000$(or whatever the sum is) that they can't account for->proved.
On September 13 2012 05:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On September 13 2012 05:12 FabledIntegral wrote:
On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote: 12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait
You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic.
Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways.
MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit).
I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal.
I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest.
People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances.
Sorry but you're wrong about the rent figure being ludicrous. It entirely depends on where you're living. If you're in Manhattan, NYC, or Westwood, LA, then sure, rent @ 600 euros (~770 dollars) per month per person would be "atrociously insufficient". Maybe you should cite your source for "U.S. standards", if such a thing exists, because I'd be curious to know what the average "monthly rental per person" rate is in the U.S...
So to the point, ~$770/month is actually MORE than many people pay in many less popular/wealthy cities -- and these are not cities, as you say, that are located in the middle of "buttfuck nowhere".
Just needed to clear that up.
I made it quite clear (at least I thought, it wasn't intentionally meant to mean "rent only") that I thought the cost of just 600 Euros was ridiculously low since it included utilities, a furnished place, food, and many other amenities. What other places have a friggin' gym within the same exact building? Many have it within a complex, but the way they have it structured is ultimate convenience.
So I completely stand by my statement that insinuating 600 Euros for rent (and nothing more) with all the shit they are providing would be completely ludicrous.
Its a really high amount of money in Poland. The average income there is something like below 1000 euros. Figure from there. Your gonna feed 2 families with that probably.
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok.
By Destiny's logic, if i can't prove something then it's false. Haha.
Yes. Thats how the legal system works. It has these people called 'judges' and they get to see these things called 'evidence' and hear these things called 'arguments' and usually the side with less evidence or worse arguments doesnt get to win.
On September 13 2012 05:36 Redox wrote: Painful to see how people lust for all that drama.
No one wants the drama. Most people, like myself, put themselves in the victims shoes and say to themselves "Wow, that person was wronged.."
NO one WANTS this stuff to happen, this isn't some TV sitcom, this is someone in real life potentially getting scammed by folks who claim to be offering paid services out of passion for a gaming community. What if you were hurt like this? You'd want justice. He wanted his voice to be heard, now it is. Notice, if the story is true, he would have been screwed had he not said anything on facebook then OH DAMN better give me money back to him before I have been found out!
On September 13 2012 04:15 Destiny wrote: The Boss guy looks like kind of a dick here, but honestly, a contract is a contract.
When I was first contacted by MoW, my very first action was to request a contract and read through all of the fine terms.
As for the "not allowed to stay at another house in 10 years," that's not true, you're just not allowed to start your own team house in 10 years. It's kind of strange, maybe, for the e-sports world, but that's a pretty standard non-competition clause from the business world. It's meant to protect businesses from revealing practices to an employee and then having that employee run off to start their own business to compete using everything they learned from that previous business. Not saying it's right or wrong in this circumstance, just giving some background.
Yeah, there are some other clauses. Financial compensation they want, minimum number of stream hours, etc...etc...But to complain about all of these after the fact..? I can't understand why anyone would move to a house and not read the contract first, seems kind of strange.
You're missing the important part where he's paid a months rent without signing a contract and has been asked to leave.
This is going to sound incredibly dickish, and it definitely doesn't excuse MoW from acting dickish, but there's nothing to keep them from keeping the money.
You never, ever, ever, ever, ever give someone money without signing a contract first or at least asking for a receipt.
Basically yes but there has to be some morality in this fcking world. If I am gonna ask for receipt when I am buying tobacco to prevent getting my box then fuck that kind of people. I understand that legally mow can keep money and negate any kind of verbal contract, but Fuzer is stupid if we have not some kind of chatlog's either Skype or MSN with mow "Boss".
Morality is fine for school and church, but please don't ever expose yourself in the financial world expecting others to ask "decent". You'll wind up fucked 7 ways to Sunday.
I understand you. But I am a attorney at law myself so I learnt about moral 4 freacking years. I didn't said this is something weird or unusual, but the way you are justifying this "legal fraud" is funny. Morality is very important for self-improvement, interhuman relationship and so on. Thats why I said fuck this ugly world, not because I am some kind of a cliche guy, but many people here think this is very non standard. I cant express because my english is not really good This is very retarded situation, but nothing non common.
I understand what you're saying, brotha, and I agree with you 100%. It's a nasty as fuck world out there, and there is NO good reason to act like a dick to someone.
That being said, though, you lock your car every time you get out of it, no? There's a reason why we take precautions against immorality. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
I've been following the thread and taking an interest in your posts, Destiny. Because It seems that you're preaching the hard realities and truths of business to people that may be ignorant. This is all well and good, but I wonder if you are unbalanced to focus most of your energy on the legalities of this issue, rather than the context.
Being in the business world for some time, I can draw on my experience to state that the foundation of business is legality, logic and math. However, what separates good business-people from the mediocre and poor has (in my experience) been spirit, attitude, good-will and cooperation.
I think it's vaild that this gentleman is writing about his experience on this forum. His experience, if true, illustrates that this gaming house may treat it's customers poorly. This may be important information to many people who are considering patronizing the Ministry of Win. Though all the information on Fuzer's experience is not yet available, we can at least ascertain from his words that he felt mistreated, disrespected and misguided. In my book it's definitely worthy of a post and a follow up. It doesn't make much sense to me that you are defending the legality of the business relationship rather than focusing on the original issue at hand - that the Ministry of Win treated Fuzer poorly.
[QUOTE/]You can actually prove it. Report to authorities->they investigate->find no cash register->tax evasion->freeze bank accounts-> find extra 1000$ that they can't account for->proved.[/QUOTE]
On September 13 2012 05:37 epidGoaty wrote: lol I am going to get off from my normal level headed thought process and say that I hope this too turns around and bites Destiny in the butt. Why can't you just stop proving to people you are an immature asshat and let MoW handle their own business. You are just making them look more foolish with your uneducated, nonconstructive postings.
In this case I dont think Destiny has made either foolish or uneducated or nonconstructive postings. He is simply maintaining that (a) its good to have contracts (b) that you need proof in evidence in the legal system and that (c) he doesnt believe that Fuzer has demonstrated adequate proof to prove that he in fact has transferred over the money.
You can certainly debate point (c) but point (a) and (b) are both common sense and certainly useful for people in the e-sports who view this as a career rather than as a hobby to keep in mind. There is a very good reason why Day9 has a lawyer from one of the biggest law firms in California, once real dough starts coming in it really is important to know and protect your rights.
On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote: 12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait
You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic.
Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways.
MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit).
I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal.
I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest.
People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances.
Bro, when I lived with my parents overseas we were renting 8 bedroom 4 bath houses for 2500 euros a month in German and English cities. I know this is all anecdotal evidence, but I'm just letting you know that with 7200 euros a month (probably more since they are getting some streaming revenue, maybe some sponsors and not every player is probably paying the same amount) you should EASILY be able to afford something like the MoW setup. Easily.
Within cities? Then rent is cheap there. I've lived in various areas, with cities always being more expensive than others, but the average I found in the U.S. was around $1,800 for a 3 bedroom.
Paid $1,900 for a shitty small two bedroom on the beach before split amongst 4 people though.
EPT
This is very retarded situation, but nothing non common.
