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On September 13 2012 05:30 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111 So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok.
No, he isnt saying that. He is saying that without proof that Fuzer sent them the money how do you know he sent them the money? Easiest thing for Fuzer to do would be to show a cash withdrawal from his bank in the amount he says he gave them and then show, by the fact that he was allowed to live and train at the house and was fed, that he transferred that money to MoW.
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Oh god, more drama, really?
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Fuzer, how did you give him the money ? Cash ? Check ? Credit Card ?
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TBH if the majority of esports were ran more like a business this wouldn't be an issue because having something in writing or not having receipts for reimbursement would never occur. I am not saying that the MoW house is correct here but I really am still shocked at the amount of people who want money from the scene, some even put money into the scene, and still don't treat it like a financial transaction. Until eSports is bound by more professional contractual obligations this dumb shit will continue to happen.
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What a thread....lol. I feel like im in law school.
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Painful to see how people lust for all that drama.
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A lot of people are throwing the word "criminal" around. In the U.S. matters of contracts and services/payments are not criminal unless fraud or some other activity is involved. It is a "civil" matter and something like this would be handled in small claims court. I'm not familiar with the laws oversees however.
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On September 13 2012 05:31 MagicalGirl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote:
12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic. Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways. MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit). I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal. I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest. People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances. Bro, when I lived with my parents overseas we were renting 8 bedroom 4 bath houses for 2500 euros a month in German and English cities. I know this is all anecdotal evidence, but I'm just letting you know that with 7200 euros a month (probably more since they are getting some streaming revenue, maybe some sponsors and not every player is probably paying the same amount) you should EASILY be able to afford something like the MoW setup. Easily.
Easily, especially in Poland, quite a cheap country to live in
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On September 13 2012 05:33 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:30 Martijn wrote:On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111 So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok. By Destiny's logic, if i can't prove something then it's false. Haha.
It's not Destiny's logic, it's how the real world works. As anyone involved with law enforcement knows, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove. Wake the fuck up, people.
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On September 13 2012 05:34 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:30 Martijn wrote:On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111 So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok. No, he isnt saying that. He is saying that without proof that Fuzer sent them the money how do you know he sent them the money? Easiest thing for Fuzer to do would be to show a cash withdrawal from his bank in the amount he says he gave them and then show, by the fact that he was allowed to live and train at the house and was fed, that he transferred that money to MoW.
Well then he needs to learn how to read.
"if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny."
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On September 13 2012 05:28 S_SienZ wrote:
It's quite depressing to see how many people are actually thinking that teaCher is serious about it. He's made it pretty obvious =.=
I am literally laughing so hard at ppl who are taking him serious. Great troll IMO.
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On September 13 2012 05:33 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:30 Martijn wrote:On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111 So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok. By Destiny's logic, if i can't prove something then it's false. Haha.
Yes. Thats how the legal system works. It has these people called 'judges' and they get to see these things called 'evidence' and hear these things called 'arguments' and usually the side with less evidence or worse arguments doesnt get to win.
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On September 13 2012 05:30 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111 So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok.
Doubt it that they have a cash register in that house. If you file a complaint, even without a receipt, authorities will investigate, probably not find a cash register and close it down due to tax evasion. There are alot of countries that have a huge black market in EU because people don't ask for receipts. Business makers usully love to forget to punch in receipts.
Either way IMO if you operate a business on trust and don't hand out receipts then you should be trustworthy and pay out when shit like this happens. If not you loose credibility(exactly what is happening here and now).
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lol I am going to get off from my normal level headed thought process and say that I hope this too turns around and bites Destiny in the butt. Why can't you just stop proving to people you are an immature asshat and let MoW handle their own business. You are just making them look more foolish with your uneducated, nonconstructive postings.
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On September 13 2012 05:37 TheWorldToCome wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:28 S_SienZ wrote:
It's quite depressing to see how many people are actually thinking that teaCher is serious about it. He's made it pretty obvious =.= I am literally laughing so hard at ppl who are taking him serious. Great troll IMO.
Thank you sir, thank you.
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On September 13 2012 05:32 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:26 mahO wrote:On September 13 2012 05:05 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 04:57 Vermiiifuuge wrote:On September 13 2012 04:54 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 04:52 kliu wrote:
whats wrong with a second pair of eyes looking at a contract? seems like MoW didn't want that second look to happen You sign an NDA to see the contract. You can't just send it off to random people, there needs to be evidence that someone is working as a legal counsel to the party you're contracting. It's not just a "oh trust me he's my lawyer" kind of thing. Jesus, I understand how much we all love to get in on the drama and what not, but if you don't have at least the basic semblance of business sense why even bother posting in this thread? Yeah, having to sign an NDA to see the contract seems very legit and doesnt scream "something fishy's going on" at all! "Something fishy's going", you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about. The fuck are you, some 18 year old frosh in college who thinks he knows everything about the business world? Ten people want to go to the MoW. Two of them are big names. When negotiating all of the contracts, the house wants to find a way to keep everyone happy but also to keep itself sustained, financially. I know how much you all BLEED E-SPORTS but money is kind of fucking important, the real world doesn't run on HOPES AND DREAMS AND RAINBOWS. If there were no NDAs to negotiate contracts, the two big name players see that they have to pay a bit more to stay at the house than the smaller players. Now all of a sudden they feel ripped off, and they don't want to go because they feel like they're subsidizing the existence of everyone else there. Now they pull out and the 8 smaller names all have to pay a larger share than they can afford, etc...etc... Or take teams for instance. You don't think there's an NDA attached to every single contract that a player signs? What if Stephano was being negotiated with and he thought he was worth 2X as much as HuK, and he was able to read HuK's contract exactly. EG now has no ability to negotiate with him. etc...etc...etc... There are reasons NDA's and NCC's exist in the business world, and it's not that "something fishy HURR DURR" is going on. It's because people want to protect their financial interests and their ability to operate as a business. You try a little bit too much to appear as an experienced business man while defending the house you're paying / living at. The point here isnt the exactitude of contracts, but more the method and mindset behind it, all this could be legal, it isnt feeding the drama, the "boss" behaviour and general mindset as a training house seems bad, you said yourself the boss is kind of a dick, while defending the whole thing, I cant really tell if you're defending this for some weird reason or just decided to correct wrong TL posts (good luck with that). Anyway, you cant really express your honest opinion on the house, the way it's handled and the management intentions / behavior, and thats totally understandable, since you actually live there for I dont know how long, but this looks bad from the little information we got, and you didnt deny any of it, you just attacked some random posters exagerated points. People wont really care about how legal it is, they want to know if MoW' people are "dickish", cant be trusted, was this all a too good to be true story that might fit some pros expectations and needs (you for example, and glad if it is the case)? As weird as it sounds, training house like MoW must have created a lot of expectations for a lot of wannabe pros, and even simple players like myself who think it is great that some talented guys could exploit their potential in a good environement and reach a decent level. As someone said, this kind of behaviour will just kill that aura MoW could have had, and it will just open a new spot for the "dreamy friendly and effective training house" in Europe. BTW, you're probably the most interesting and intelligent person in the community imho, I just dont have enough information to make claims here, and I have a hard time understanding your approach to this "drama", and no, I usually dont give a fuck about dramas I'm not "trying hard" for anything. It's common fucking sense. I have no business relationship with MoW yet, I could just cancel my plane tickets and not go if I thought it was in my best interest. And that being said, nothing in my contract will keep me from talking shit about them if I think they're a shitty organization or if they fuck up a lot. As I said earlier, the Boss came off as kind of dick, but to move to another country + into a house without even reading a contract or asking for receipts for any of your payments..? Just because someone's a dick doesn't make them a bad person. Ever try to get an autograph from Nony at events? It's damn near impossible, and that goes for a lot of other players, too, but that doesn't make them "bad people". I don't see what "kind of behavior" will affect the aura at the MoW. The owner wants to make money on it so that it's a profitable and sustainable business venture. What's wrong with that?
Dude you can't compare Nony's autographing behaviour to someone practically stealing money from someone. Practically stealing, cuz i dunno if it really is stealing or not, cuz i dunno laws n shits, but still! Its wrong and its bad and te boss is a douche.
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On September 13 2012 05:32 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:26 mahO wrote:On September 13 2012 05:05 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 04:57 Vermiiifuuge wrote:On September 13 2012 04:54 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 04:52 kliu wrote:
whats wrong with a second pair of eyes looking at a contract? seems like MoW didn't want that second look to happen You sign an NDA to see the contract. You can't just send it off to random people, there needs to be evidence that someone is working as a legal counsel to the party you're contracting. It's not just a "oh trust me he's my lawyer" kind of thing. Jesus, I understand how much we all love to get in on the drama and what not, but if you don't have at least the basic semblance of business sense why even bother posting in this thread? Yeah, having to sign an NDA to see the contract seems very legit and doesnt scream "something fishy's going on" at all! "Something fishy's going", you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about. The fuck are you, some 18 year old frosh in college who thinks he knows everything about the business world? Ten people want to go to the MoW. Two of them are big names. When negotiating all of the contracts, the house wants to find a way to keep everyone happy but also to keep itself sustained, financially. I know how much you all BLEED E-SPORTS but money is kind of fucking important, the real world doesn't run on HOPES AND DREAMS AND RAINBOWS. If there were no NDAs to negotiate contracts, the two big name players see that they have to pay a bit more to stay at the house than the smaller players. Now all of a sudden they feel ripped off, and they don't want to go because they feel like they're subsidizing the existence of everyone else there. Now they pull out and the 8 smaller names all have to pay a larger share than they can afford, etc...etc... Or take teams for instance. You don't think there's an NDA attached to every single contract that a player signs? What if Stephano was being negotiated with and he thought he was worth 2X as much as HuK, and he was able to read HuK's contract exactly. EG now has no ability to negotiate with him. etc...etc...etc... There are reasons NDA's and NCC's exist in the business world, and it's not that "something fishy HURR DURR" is going on. It's because people want to protect their financial interests and their ability to operate as a business. You try a little bit too much to appear as an experienced business man while defending the house you're paying / living at. The point here isnt the exactitude of contracts, but more the method and mindset behind it, all this could be legal, it isnt feeding the drama, the "boss" behaviour and general mindset as a training house seems bad, you said yourself the boss is kind of a dick, while defending the whole thing, I cant really tell if you're defending this for some weird reason or just decided to correct wrong TL posts (good luck with that). Anyway, you cant really express your honest opinion on the house, the way it's handled and the management intentions / behavior, and thats totally understandable, since you actually live there for I dont know how long, but this looks bad from the little information we got, and you didnt deny any of it, you just attacked some random posters exagerated points. People wont really care about how legal it is, they want to know if MoW' people are "dickish", cant be trusted, was this all a too good to be true story that might fit some pros expectations and needs (you for example, and glad if it is the case)? As weird as it sounds, training house like MoW must have created a lot of expectations for a lot of wannabe pros, and even simple players like myself who think it is great that some talented guys could exploit their potential in a good environement and reach a decent level. As someone said, this kind of behaviour will just kill that aura MoW could have had, and it will just open a new spot for the "dreamy friendly and effective training house" in Europe. BTW, you're probably the most interesting and intelligent person in the community imho, I just dont have enough information to make claims here, and I have a hard time understanding your approach to this "drama", and no, I usually dont give a fuck about dramas I'm not "trying hard" for anything. It's common fucking sense. I have no business relationship with MoW yet, I could just cancel my plane tickets and not go if I thought it was in my best interest. And that being said, nothing in my contract will keep me from talking shit about them if I think they're a shitty organization or if they fuck up a lot. As I said earlier, the Boss came off as kind of dick, but to move to another country + into a house without even reading a contract or asking for receipts for any of your payments..? Just because someone's a dick doesn't make them a bad person. Ever try to get an autograph from Nony at events? It's damn near impossible, and that goes for a lot of other players, too, but that doesn't make them "bad people". I don't see what "kind of behavior" will affect the aura at the MoW. The owner wants to make money on it so that it's a profitable and sustainable business venture. What's wrong with that?
lol
can't believe you compared nony not signing autographs with someone who is not giving back fuzer's money at this specific situation.
also, you are probably missing the post about that boss guy where he is known for stealing money from a tournament.
can see more of it at reddit if you haven't seen it yet.
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On September 13 2012 05:33 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:30 Martijn wrote:On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111 So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok. By Destiny's logic, if i can't prove something then it's false. Haha.
No, if you can't prove something, then you can't prove something.
He is showing how ridiculous the situation is with a ridiculous statement following the same line of logic.
Its a very easy tool to see if there is flaw of logic.
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This is ridicilous.I hope they find a solution.
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10 players, 2500 pln each... so that's... umm... 25k a month for renting a house?!
brb, opening team house
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EPT
