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How the hell are you guys ignoring this:
On September 13 2012 03:38 Fuzer wrote:
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
in other words, Boss is saying "you dont have any confirmation i recieved your money", Boss is a fucking douche my eyes. If this wasnt 2012 and there was no internet, he would kept the money to himself.
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United States5742 Posts
This thread is turning to shit at record speed.
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On September 13 2012 05:23 Raflal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:15 teaCher wrote:On September 13 2012 05:13 BadBinky wrote:Oh well time to email some sponsors I guess. Nice do it!! I'm already on my 4th one, from separate emails!! Are you two for real? People like you ground eSports so fucking hard into the ground. MoW hasn't even released their statement yet and you're already working on destroying everything they built? This could all (probably) be a big misunderstanding, Fuzer already stated English is not his primary language so he might have misunderstood parts of the contract. If you're hoping eSports ever make it mainstream you should man the fuck up and let the involved parties deal with this mess. This is just as retarded as hardcore religious people going on a rampage because of some drawing (which they haven't seen) mock their God.
Yo dawgg, just for that paragraph I didn't fully read, im bumping it to 20 emails. Then im going to ask my email sponsor club to each do 10 essay emails for homework, and we send them all at the same time tomorrow.
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On September 13 2012 05:22 Torrathyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there. They didn't enter an agreement though, he didn't sign the contract and thats why they tossed him out. Fuzer said himself that he was there for a month and 3 weeks. He paid for the first month with cash and the second month as well. I don't want to defend MoW, but I don't think you're reading things right here pal.
Eh, read the edit, I specifically used the term agreement and not contract to imply a verbal agreement, which is still very much binding.
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Sounds like a sketchy organization
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On September 13 2012 05:24 Ucs wrote:
Imo Fuzer just didn't understand what was written in the contract. Only bad part about about this whole "drama" is the "10 year you are not allowed to join a team house thing" which I think is probably not true. Its probably more like "don't steal our business plan of making gaming houses"(which is preatty silly to me but...well if thats what they want).
Anyway the rest of the witch hunt here is about the NDA which was clearead out by other posters here because it is a necesity, and the money back thing which depending on how much fuzer stayed from that month in the house and what exactly did he ask for and how, one or the other may be right. If fuzer stayed like 90% of the month and asks for all the money back or if he stayed for 10% of the month and asks for the 90% of the money back are 2 completly diffrent situations. I'll wait for the official statement because I think Ret and other progamers wouldn't sign something ridiculous.
I stayed 6 days from a month.
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On September 13 2012 05:22 Torrathyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there. They didn't enter an agreement though, he didn't sign the contract and thats why they tossed him out. Fuzer said himself that he was there for a month and 3 weeks. He paid for the first month with cash and the second month as well. I don't want to defend MoW, but I don't think you're reading things right here pal.
You can enter into a contract without an actual signature on a piece of paper if both sides begin to perform actions stipulated in the contract. He moved to MoW, gave them money, started training. They took his money, gave him a place to stay, fed him, gave him training.
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On September 13 2012 05:24 Ucs wrote:
Imo Fuzer just didn't understand what was written in the contract. Only bad part about about this whole "drama" is the "10 year you are not allowed to join a team house thing" which I think is probably not true. Its probably more like "don't steal our business plan of making gaming houses".
Anyway the rest of the witch hunt here is about the NDA which was clearead out by other posters here because it is a necesity, and the money back thing which depending on how much fuzer stayed from that month in the house and what exactly did he ask for and how one or the other may be right. If fuzer stayed like 90% of the month and asks for all the money back or if he stayed for 10% of the month and asks for the 90% of the money back are 2 completly diffrent situations. I'll wait for the official statement because I think Ret and other progamers wouldn't sign something ridiculous.
Still don't understand why did they want the last bit of money when Fuzer had just paid the 2nd part of it. And why did they not want Lawyer involved with this and why did they not give back some of that money that had been used back
I can be mistaken.. But this seems quite odd to me.
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On September 13 2012 05:05 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 04:57 Vermiiifuuge wrote:On September 13 2012 04:54 Destiny wrote:On September 13 2012 04:52 kliu wrote:
whats wrong with a second pair of eyes looking at a contract? seems like MoW didn't want that second look to happen You sign an NDA to see the contract. You can't just send it off to random people, there needs to be evidence that someone is working as a legal counsel to the party you're contracting. It's not just a "oh trust me he's my lawyer" kind of thing. Jesus, I understand how much we all love to get in on the drama and what not, but if you don't have at least the basic semblance of business sense why even bother posting in this thread? Yeah, having to sign an NDA to see the contract seems very legit and doesnt scream "something fishy's going on" at all! "Something fishy's going", you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about. The fuck are you, some 18 year old frosh in college who thinks he knows everything about the business world? Ten people want to go to the MoW. Two of them are big names. When negotiating all of the contracts, the house wants to find a way to keep everyone happy but also to keep itself sustained, financially. I know how much you all BLEED E-SPORTS but money is kind of fucking important, the real world doesn't run on HOPES AND DREAMS AND RAINBOWS. If there were no NDAs to negotiate contracts, the two big name players see that they have to pay a bit more to stay at the house than the smaller players. Now all of a sudden they feel ripped off, and they don't want to go because they feel like they're subsidizing the existence of everyone else there. Now they pull out and the 8 smaller names all have to pay a larger share than they can afford, etc...etc... Or take teams for instance. You don't think there's an NDA attached to every single contract that a player signs? What if Stephano was being negotiated with and he thought he was worth 2X as much as HuK, and he was able to read HuK's contract exactly. EG now has no ability to negotiate with him. etc...etc...etc... There are reasons NDA's and NCC's exist in the business world, and it's not that "something fishy HURR DURR" is going on. It's because people want to protect their financial interests and their ability to operate as a business.
You try a little bit too much to appear as an experienced business man while defending the house you're paying / living at. The point here isnt the exactitude of contracts, but more the method and mindset behind it, all this could be legal, it isnt feeding the drama, the "boss" behaviour and general mindset as a training house seems bad, you said yourself the boss is kind of a dick, while defending the whole thing, I cant really tell if you're defending this for some weird reason or just decided to correct wrong TL posts (good luck with that). Anyway, you cant really express your honest opinion on the house, the way it's handled and the management intentions / behavior, and thats totally understandable, since you actually live there for I dont know how long, but this looks bad from the little information we got, and you didnt deny any of it, you just attacked some random posters exagerated points.
People wont really care about how legal it is, they want to know if MoW' people are "dickish", cant be trusted, was this all a too good to be true story that might fit some pros expectations and needs (you for example, and glad if it is the case)? As weird as it sounds, training house like MoW must have created a lot of expectations for a lot of wannabe pros, and even simple players like myself who think it is great that some talented guys could exploit their potential in a good environement and reach a decent level. As someone said, this kind of behaviour will just kill that aura MoW could have had, and it will just open a new spot for the "dreamy friendly and effective training house" in Europe.
BTW, you're probably the most interesting and intelligent person in the community imho, I just dont have enough information to make claims here, and I have a hard time understanding your approach to this "drama", and no, I usually dont give a fuck about dramas
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Thanks for exposing this Fuzer, but we should wait to pass judgement untill MoW has relased their statement.
A few things seem stupid or fishy, but lets wait till the smoke clears..
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On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Could people please stop with the "in Europe"? Europe is not one country... It's many countries with their own laws!
The rest I agree on :D
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On September 13 2012 05:21 teaCher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:19 Xcobidoo wrote:On September 13 2012 05:15 teaCher wrote:On September 13 2012 05:13 BadBinky wrote:Oh well time to email some sponsors I guess. Nice do it!! I'm already on my 4th one, from separate emails!! Jesus christ are you the loneliest man in the world? At least wait for the official announcements, if it's BS then go right ahead, people who e-mail sponsors whenever they get the chance are like the bitter old grannies of the e-sports community. Sorry man, i'm on number 9 now. Just for you im going to make 6 more gmail accounts, and write up to 15.
For the love of god i hope you're joking. Dont start emailing shit before this issue is fully resolved. There's not been nearly enough hard evidence put out for you to start emailing sponsors. Atleast wait untill MoW have given their response
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On September 13 2012 05:24 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:20 wklbishop wrote:On September 13 2012 05:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote:
12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic. Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways. MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit). I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal. I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest. People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances. Where the hell do you live? Hi, I'm from NYC and have also lived in Buffalo. Rent with utilities and living expenses are $900 and $500 respectively if you cook. You must be wealthy or... idk. The numbers you're giving out sounds ridiculous really. SOme of the numbers you give make sense, but if you really search around then it's more than possible. Anyways, if what you say is true for yourself then come here to Buffalo or NYC (which is apparently buttfuck nowhere). haha. I'm confused. So you calculated them to be around $1,400, and that's most likely for an area without all the amenities that the MoW provides. Also, it many places come unfurnished. MoW comes furnished with a ridiculous amount of assets. So you're comparing $1,400 at a place you're talking about (and that's WITHOUT the food being prepared for you, mind you) to a measely 600 Euros per month? What are you even talking about?
Dude... I currently am living in Buffalo for $500. LOLs.
$300 for rent (furnished too) and $50 for utilities and $150 for food/living expenses (I cook).
I live in Chinatown in Manhattan. I pay rent for about $700 and the food there is cheap actually.
Clear? Sorry if I confused you. But I really have no idea where you got your numbers from. If that's your life then come to Buffalo or something.
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Sounds like MoW is the true meaning of a frat house...
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On September 13 2012 05:27 TOCHMY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Could people please stop with the "in Europe"? Europe is not one country... It's many countries with their own laws! The rest I agree on :D
Verbal agreements are binding in Poland, though this would be a lengthy process to get it straight in court. In Polish court.....
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What a shame, I had hoped MoW would have kept community goodwill for longer then this, seemed like such a good thing for the scene and its players in general, but that "boss" figure does sound really sketchy.
On September 13 2012 05:28 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:27 TOCHMY wrote:On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Could people please stop with the "in Europe"? Europe is not one country... It's many countries with their own laws! The rest I agree on :D Verbal agreements are binding in Poland, though this would be a lengthy process to get it straight in court. In Polish court.....
From my understanding the ruling would be based on the country of the defendant, so Finland?
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On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
Except the fact that Fuzer was there for a month, and there are witnesses probably saying he was there. I'm sure he paid them because he was in the house (6?) days after as well.
Nice try though 
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It's quite depressing to see how many people are actually thinking that teaCher is serious about it. He's made it pretty obvious =.=
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On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
I thought you were a logically thinking rational man but i guess that doesn't guarantee any morality
And like someone already said im sure there are witnesses who could confirm this transaction between them.
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On September 13 2012 05:23 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here. Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
dude why are you getting so worked up because of people like that? People on TL seem to be living in a world of morality and pretty things where nothing evil happens, because...evil things are not nice after all. I realized this quite some time ago...and I only have around 80 posts...YOU as a streamer and progamer should know that there is not even a reason to get get emotionally involved in discussions on the internet...especially with the bunny lovers on TL?
I was just wondering why you even botehr actually discussing something with the idiot people in here?^_^
(not referring to all TL people of course but then ones who behave like 5 year olds and are already mailing sponsors for example)
edit: especially the people who think you are defending this, and not only referring to the real world.......
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EPT
