On September 13 2012 05:15 Catatonic wrote: I don't see the part about streaming being an issue so there's no right to complain about it but the rest seems kind of hinky so I would probably advise others against going there if that's truly what is going on.
It would mean if you are a popular streamer (or just a good player) you have to pay more. Not exactly a reason to freak out but I can see why some players can have an issue with that.
Or you pay less rent if you are more popular? o.o that would make more sense since they'd get more money from stream
Fuzer make mistake in post , dont knowing that or...
You can go to another house.., YOU CANT OPEN OWN house and coach people there. This is in conbtract , not that you cant go to another house.
Are you sure you're not a part of the MoW management? You're acting awfully hysterical considering the situation. You said it yourself: We will know as soon as MoW release their statement. Why defend every comment made about the situation? Fuzers intent was good.
Becase what fuzer write is not true.. ? and i defend the true ? ( dont know abouth rest of the post , but 10 years thing , that you cant join another house is not true ) , you got some problems with true or what ? , i was thinking that everyone wanna true here.. Im not posting abouth rest of Fuzers post , i post only abouth that what he read wrong and then write here.
he got it slightly wrong but it's understandable when english isn't his first language, chill out, you obviously have a vested interest here
True i have some.. because i care for polish e-sport , like i think everyone hwo is interested in e-sports will do for own country. They put a lot of work to make this house working , eveyone who was in the house ( snute , cyto etc ) say it was superb and very profesional and they are happy that they go to Poland , everyone who is in house now say the same Sage , Ret Wilko , all say everything is ok..
But like i write before it all this what Fuzer write is true im goona go to MoW house and kick boss ass for real , for fucking this up. But if this is not true ... then polish e-sport will suffer for nothing.. because of one player..then it not good and fair.
it's not about polish esports, it's about MoW and that's it. and stop saying that fuzer is lying, there is no reason for him to do that and you don't have anything to prove against him.
Gaming house with players from all over to world.. is e-sport for me..
but not POLISH esports, it's not hurting POLISH esports, but just the MoW.
Then you think e-sports are just "players" in this case polish players ? , not places to go.. to watch.. tournaments etc.. ? gaming sponsors like razer interesting to support polish gaming house is not e-sport.. ? , then i end disscusion with you , because you just dont know that is e-sports.
eSports is hurt by shitty organization doing shitty things to players and the community. Shit like this pushes people away from the scene and its part of the community's responsibility to make sure that things like this don't spread and become harmful.
Agree 100% , we must act in situations like that . But if that is comfirmed not only by one source. Its easy to write something or say , and then bad things stick to person or something else.. But if that all is not 100% true ? then what.. ? MoW already got bad press and we cant fix it...fast
I almost always put the player's words first before the organization. There seems to be something fishy going on, any decent organization should never be this shady.
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok.
On September 13 2012 05:24 Ucs wrote: Imo Fuzer just didn't understand what was written in the contract. Only bad part about about this whole "drama" is the "10 year you are not allowed to join a team house thing" which I think is probably not true. Its probably more like "don't steal our business plan of making gaming houses"(which is preatty silly to me but...well if thats what they want).
Anyway the rest of the witch hunt here is about the NDA which was clearead out by other posters here because it is a necesity, and the money back thing which depending on how much fuzer stayed from that month in the house and what exactly did he ask for and how, one or the other may be right. If fuzer stayed like 90% of the month and asks for all the money back or if he stayed for 10% of the month and asks for the 90% of the money back are 2 completly diffrent situations. I'll wait for the official statement because I think Ret and other progamers wouldn't sign something ridiculous.
I stayed 6 days from a month.
Then you should get your money back.
P.S. I also think that streaming 5 h/day AND splitting the ad revenue after paying for living expenses is RETARDED. Can you specify what the percentage was? Like how the split went? 70-30%?
Nice do it!! I'm already on my 4th one, from separate emails!!
Are you serious? The idiots that jump on these fucking "e-mail the sponsors" crusades BEFORE the other side even releases an official statement are the epitome of stupidly impulsive.
are YOU serious? The guy is obviously being ironic about the sponsors
There are multiple people who've said the same thing. Although no, I did not see the "obvious irony" but I do see the possibility for it to be there. You do realize in the past people who legitimately were e-mailing the sponsors said they were doing it multiple times? The only suspicious thing I saw was the double exclamation marks :S.
On September 13 2012 05:21 OrbitalPlane wrote: I wonder why MoW did not want him to sign the contract BEFORE he came there or at least right when he came there.
Not all contract have to be in a written form. Oral contracts are sufficient in most cases. The written form is often used because of provableness. What i am trying to say is: What they agreed on at the start is binding. It doesn't matter what either party thought what in a contract is written which nobody signed.
If they agreed on signing a contract the transaction starts with the signing. As a result Fuzer could demand all the money back.
If not the oral contract applies.
i think rent/tenant agreements must be in writing. either way the oral agreement is unenforceable because there was no meeting of the minds; i.e. they had differente expectations
This is not true. At least not in the country i live in. Writting form for rental agreement is only needed if it transcends 1 year.
For the meeting of the minds you need to know the situation better. Fuzer lived there for several weeks, its seems to be that they had a meeting of minds. They had to agree on something.
You don't sign a contract until you read it and understand it, You don't sign when it says something you don't agree, and you don't sign a contract where the party doesn't let you show it to a lawyer. If the Muppet's on the other end tells you 'its OK we don't really ask this of you but its in the contact because.... someone else wrote it, blah blah, You don't sign. If they don't have the decency to get it right then their organisation is going to be run just as bad.
The more time you spend around the various games, especially the cs scene, the more you hear how the eSports industry is full of these dipshits that will exploit players that just want to follow their dreams of playing all day and you will meet scum that will attempt to get you to do illegal things for their own gain, the industry needs more regulation.
On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote: 12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait
You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic.
Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways.
MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit).
I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal.
I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest.
People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances.
Bro, when I lived with my parents overseas we were renting 8 bedroom 4 bath houses for 2500 euros a month in German and English cities. I know this is all anecdotal evidence, but I'm just letting you know that with 7200 euros a month (probably more since they are getting some streaming revenue, maybe some sponsors and not every player is probably paying the same amount) you should EASILY be able to afford something like the MoW setup. Easily.
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
On September 13 2012 03:53 iNcontroL wrote: not in a million years could I possible believe for 1 second that Nazgul/Hot_Bid would allow Ret to sign a contract to a house that excludes him from a progaming house for 10 years.
There is misinformation here or a contract specified to non-TL members.
I recommend people in this thread save their tridents for when more information comes out.
I wouldn't find it weird if they made a "special" contract for big name players.
This happens allt he time. He got cut a deal because Destiny staying there is going to be good publicity, even though anything around him is bad publicity... for cases like this house though, any publicity is good publicity, reason being, now he gets to write up his BS in the next 2 hours to make him look like the good guy and people will forgive, forget, and let themselves fall into this situation. Knowing just some of these contract details turns me off big time.
On September 13 2012 05:15 Catatonic wrote: I don't see the part about streaming being an issue so there's no right to complain about it but the rest seems kind of hinky so I would probably advise others against going there if that's truly what is going on.
It would mean if you are a popular streamer (or just a good player) you have to pay more. Not exactly a reason to freak out but I can see why some players can have an issue with that.
Or you pay less rent if you are more popular? o.o that would make more sense since they'd get more money from stream
It's a percentage thing, and its the most fair way to charge a group of people, make them all contribute the same percentage of their earnings.
Whats not fair is some of those clauses, and to be honest, I dont know where the communication broke down but MoW owes Fuzer the rent that he has already paid but is not going to use and they really should have given him time to let his lawyer see the contract. I think they both have some errors here but it seems to me like MoW is more in the wrong.
On September 13 2012 04:52 kliu wrote: whats wrong with a second pair of eyes looking at a contract? seems like MoW didn't want that second look to happen
You sign an NDA to see the contract. You can't just send it off to random people, there needs to be evidence that someone is working as a legal counsel to the party you're contracting. It's not just a "oh trust me he's my lawyer" kind of thing.
Jesus, I understand how much we all love to get in on the drama and what not, but if you don't have at least the basic semblance of business sense why even bother posting in this thread?
Yeah, having to sign an NDA to see the contract seems very legit and doesnt scream "something fishy's going on" at all!
"Something fishy's going", you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about. The fuck are you, some 18 year old frosh in college who thinks he knows everything about the business world?
Ten people want to go to the MoW. Two of them are big names. When negotiating all of the contracts, the house wants to find a way to keep everyone happy but also to keep itself sustained, financially. I know how much you all BLEED E-SPORTS but money is kind of fucking important, the real world doesn't run on HOPES AND DREAMS AND RAINBOWS.
If there were no NDAs to negotiate contracts, the two big name players see that they have to pay a bit more to stay at the house than the smaller players. Now all of a sudden they feel ripped off, and they don't want to go because they feel like they're subsidizing the existence of everyone else there. Now they pull out and the 8 smaller names all have to pay a larger share than they can afford, etc...etc...
Or take teams for instance. You don't think there's an NDA attached to every single contract that a player signs? What if Stephano was being negotiated with and he thought he was worth 2X as much as HuK, and he was able to read HuK's contract exactly. EG now has no ability to negotiate with him.
etc...etc...etc...
There are reasons NDA's and NCC's exist in the business world, and it's not that "something fishy HURR DURR" is going on. It's because people want to protect their financial interests and their ability to operate as a business.
You try a little bit too much to appear as an experienced business man while defending the house you're paying / living at. The point here isnt the exactitude of contracts, but more the method and mindset behind it, all this could be legal, it isnt feeding the drama, the "boss" behaviour and general mindset as a training house seems bad, you said yourself the boss is kind of a dick, while defending the whole thing, I cant really tell if you're defending this for some weird reason or just decided to correct wrong TL posts (good luck with that). Anyway, you cant really express your honest opinion on the house, the way it's handled and the management intentions / behavior, and thats totally understandable, since you actually live there for I dont know how long, but this looks bad from the little information we got, and you didnt deny any of it, you just attacked some random posters exagerated points. People wont really care about how legal it is, they want to know if MoW' people are "dickish", cant be trusted, was this all a too good to be true story that might fit some pros expectations and needs (you for example, and glad if it is the case)? As weird as it sounds, training house like MoW must have created a lot of expectations for a lot of wannabe pros, and even simple players like myself who think it is great that some talented guys could exploit their potential in a good environement and reach a decent level. As someone said, this kind of behaviour will just kill that aura MoW could have had, and it will just open a new spot for the "dreamy friendly and effective training house" in Europe.
BTW, you're probably the most interesting and intelligent person in the community imho, I just dont have enough information to make claims here, and I have a hard time understanding your approach to this "drama", and no, I usually dont give a fuck about dramas
I'm not "trying hard" for anything. It's common fucking sense.
I have no business relationship with MoW yet, I could just cancel my plane tickets and not go if I thought it was in my best interest. And that being said, nothing in my contract will keep me from talking shit about them if I think they're a shitty organization or if they fuck up a lot. As I said earlier, the Boss came off as kind of dick, but to move to another country + into a house without even reading a contract or asking for receipts for any of your payments..?
Just because someone's a dick doesn't make them a bad person. Ever try to get an autograph from Nony at events? It's damn near impossible, and that goes for a lot of other players, too, but that doesn't make them "bad people". I don't see what "kind of behavior" will affect the aura at the MoW. The owner wants to make money on it so that it's a profitable and sustainable business venture. What's wrong with that?
On September 13 2012 05:28 Hypemeup wrote: What a shame, I had hoped MoW would have kept community goodwill for longer then this, seemed like such a good thing for the scene and its players in general, but that "boss" figure does sound really sketchy.
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Could people please stop with the "in Europe"? Europe is not one country... It's many countries with their own laws!
The rest I agree on :D
Verbal agreements are binding in Poland, though this would be a lengthy process to get it straight in court. In Polish court.....
From my understanding the ruling would be based on the country of the defendant, so Finland?
It would be a civil lawsuit so I guess you are right here.
On September 13 2012 04:53 nightshade85 wrote: [quote] Are you sure you're not a part of the MoW management? You're acting awfully hysterical considering the situation. You said it yourself: We will know as soon as MoW release their statement. Why defend every comment made about the situation? Fuzers intent was good.
Becase what fuzer write is not true.. ? and i defend the true ? ( dont know abouth rest of the post , but 10 years thing , that you cant join another house is not true ) , you got some problems with true or what ? , i was thinking that everyone wanna true here.. Im not posting abouth rest of Fuzers post , i post only abouth that what he read wrong and then write here.
he got it slightly wrong but it's understandable when english isn't his first language, chill out, you obviously have a vested interest here
True i have some.. because i care for polish e-sport , like i think everyone hwo is interested in e-sports will do for own country. They put a lot of work to make this house working , eveyone who was in the house ( snute , cyto etc ) say it was superb and very profesional and they are happy that they go to Poland , everyone who is in house now say the same Sage , Ret Wilko , all say everything is ok..
But like i write before it all this what Fuzer write is true im goona go to MoW house and kick boss ass for real , for fucking this up. But if this is not true ... then polish e-sport will suffer for nothing.. because of one player..then it not good and fair.
it's not about polish esports, it's about MoW and that's it. and stop saying that fuzer is lying, there is no reason for him to do that and you don't have anything to prove against him.
Gaming house with players from all over to world.. is e-sport for me..
but not POLISH esports, it's not hurting POLISH esports, but just the MoW.
Then you think e-sports are just "players" in this case polish players ? , not places to go.. to watch.. tournaments etc.. ? gaming sponsors like razer interesting to support polish gaming house is not e-sport.. ? , then i end disscusion with you , because you just dont know that is e-sports.
eSports is hurt by shitty organization doing shitty things to players and the community. Shit like this pushes people away from the scene and its part of the community's responsibility to make sure that things like this don't spread and become harmful.
Agree 100% , we must act in situations like that . But if that is comfirmed not only by one source. Its easy to write something or say , and then bad things stick to person or something else.. But if that all is not 100% true ? then what.. ? MoW already got bad press and we cant fix it...fast
the faster you release an official statement and talk to fuzer to clear things, the less bad press you get..
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
So you're arguing it would be ok for MoW to deny they ever got the money and that's somehow legally ok? Lets for a second forget about the complete immorality of that statement, that's still just straight up theft. Yeah MoW can lie about the agreement they had with Fuzer, but that does not in any way make it legally ok.
By Destiny's logic, if i can't prove something then it's false. Haha.
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
You're basically defending the criminal here.
He is not defending anyone. The "real" world is cruel and unforgiving. Don't be naive with your outlooks.
On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote: 12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait
You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic.
Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways.
MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit).
I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal.
I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest.
People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances.
Sorry but you're wrong about the rent figure being ludicrous. It entirely depends on where you're living. If you're in Manhattan, NYC, or Westwood, LA, then sure, rent @ 600 euros (~770 dollars) per month per person would be "atrociously insufficient". Maybe you should cite your source for "U.S. standards", if such a thing exists, because I'd be curious to know what the average "monthly rental per person" rate is in the U.S...
So to the point, ~$770/month is actually MORE than many people pay in many less popular/wealthy cities -- and these are not cities, as you say, that are located in the middle of "buttfuck nowhere".
Just needed to clear that up.
I made it quite clear (at least I thought, it wasn't intentionally meant to mean "rent only") that I thought the cost of just 600 Euros was ridiculously low since it included utilities, a furnished place, food, and many other amenities. What other places have a friggin' gym within the same exact building? Many have it within a complex, but the way they have it structured is ultimate convenience.
So I completely stand by my statement that insinuating 600 Euros for rent (and nothing more) with all the shit they are providing would be completely ludicrous.
EPT
