Nice do it!! I'm already on my 4th one, from separate emails!!
Jesus christ are you the loneliest man in the world? At least wait for the official announcements, if it's BS then go right ahead, people who e-mail sponsors whenever they get the chance are like the bitter old grannies of the e-sports community.
Sorry man, i'm on number 9 now. Just for you im going to make 6 more gmail accounts, and write up to 15.
I wonder,how many players signed the contract without actually going over it with a lawyer. I cant see denstiny signing something like this,since his revenue comes from streaming.
I wonder why MoW did not want him to sign the contract BEFORE he came there or at least right when he came there.
Not all contract have to be in a written form. Oral contracts are sufficient in most cases. The written form is often used because of provableness. What i am trying to say is: What they agreed on at the start is binding. It doesn't matter what either party thought what in a contract is written which nobody signed.
If they agreed on signing a contract the transaction starts with the signing. As a result Fuzer could demand all the money back because no contract was enacted.
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
They didn't enter an agreement though, he didn't sign the contract and thats why they tossed him out. Fuzer said himself that he was there for a month and 3 weeks. He paid for the first month with cash and the second month as well.
I don't want to defend MoW, but I don't think you're reading things right here pal.
On September 13 2012 04:15 Destiny wrote: The Boss guy looks like kind of a dick here, but honestly, a contract is a contract.
When I was first contacted by MoW, my very first action was to request a contract and read through all of the fine terms.
As for the "not allowed to stay at another house in 10 years," that's not true, you're just not allowed to start your own team house in 10 years. It's kind of strange, maybe, for the e-sports world, but that's a pretty standard non-competition clause from the business world. It's meant to protect businesses from revealing practices to an employee and then having that employee run off to start their own business to compete using everything they learned from that previous business. Not saying it's right or wrong in this circumstance, just giving some background.
Yeah, there are some other clauses. Financial compensation they want, minimum number of stream hours, etc...etc...But to complain about all of these after the fact..? I can't understand why anyone would move to a house and not read the contract first, seems kind of strange.
You're missing the important part where he's paid a months rent without signing a contract and has been asked to leave.
This is going to sound incredibly dickish, and it definitely doesn't excuse MoW from acting dickish, but there's nothing to keep them from keeping the money.
You never, ever, ever, ever, ever give someone money without signing a contract first or at least asking for a receipt.
Basically yes but there has to be some morality in this fcking world. If I am gonna ask for receipt when I am buying tobacco to prevent getting my box then fuck that kind of people. I understand that legally mow can keep money and negate any kind of verbal contract, but Fuzer is stupid if we have not some kind of chatlog's either Skype or MSN with mow "Boss".
Morality is fine for school and church, but please don't ever expose yourself in the financial world expecting others to ask "decent". You'll wind up fucked 7 ways to Sunday.
I understand you. But I am a attorney at law myself so I learnt about moral 4 freacking years. I didn't said this is something weird or unusual, but the way you are justifying this "legal fraud" is funny. Morality is very important for self-improvement, interhuman relationship and so on. Thats why I said fuck this ugly world, not because I am some kind of a cliche guy, but many people here think this is very non standard. I cant express because my english is not really good This is very retarded situation, but nothing non common.
I understand what you're saying, brotha, and I agree with you 100%. It's a nasty as fuck world out there, and there is NO good reason to act like a dick to someone.
That being said, though, you lock your car every time you get out of it, no? There's a reason why we take precautions against immorality. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
On September 13 2012 04:41 Xcobidoo wrote: Wait so if Ret has signed, then he can't go to any liquidhouse etc.? Ouch :/
Fuzer make mistake in post , dont knowing that or...
You can go to another house.., YOU CANT OPEN OWN house and coach people there. This is in conbtract , not that you cant go to another house.
Are you sure you're not a part of the MoW management? You're acting awfully hysterical considering the situation. You said it yourself: We will know as soon as MoW release their statement. Why defend every comment made about the situation? Fuzers intent was good.
Becase what fuzer write is not true.. ? and i defend the true ? ( dont know abouth rest of the post , but 10 years thing , that you cant join another house is not true ) , you got some problems with true or what ? , i was thinking that everyone wanna true here.. Im not posting abouth rest of Fuzers post , i post only abouth that what he read wrong and then write here.
he got it slightly wrong but it's understandable when english isn't his first language, chill out, you obviously have a vested interest here
True i have some.. because i care for polish e-sport , like i think everyone hwo is interested in e-sports will do for own country. They put a lot of work to make this house working , eveyone who was in the house ( snute , cyto etc ) say it was superb and very profesional and they are happy that they go to Poland , everyone who is in house now say the same Sage , Ret Wilko , all say everything is ok..
But like i write before it all this what Fuzer write is true im goona go to MoW house and kick boss ass for real , for fucking this up. But if this is not true ... then polish e-sport will suffer for nothing.. because of one player..then it not good and fair.
it's not about polish esports, it's about MoW and that's it. and stop saying that fuzer is lying, there is no reason for him to do that and you don't have anything to prove against him.
Gaming house with players from all over to world.. is e-sport for me..
but not POLISH esports, it's not hurting POLISH esports, but just the MoW.
Then you think e-sports are just "players" in this case polish players ? , not places to go.. to watch.. tournaments etc.. ? gaming sponsors like razer interesting to support polish gaming house is not e-sport.. ? , then i end disscusion with you , because you just dont know that is e-sports.
Nice do it!! I'm already on my 4th one, from separate emails!!
Jesus christ are you the loneliest man in the world? At least wait for the official announcements, if it's BS then go right ahead, people who e-mail sponsors whenever they get the chance are like the bitter old grannies of the e-sports community.
Sorry man, i'm on number 9 now. Just for you im going to make 6 more gmail accounts, and write up to 15.
Dont you rustle my jimmies or i will start writing to sponsors too!
Let's be honest, whatever stupid clauses they added to the contract, they won't be able to enforce them anyway, no court will look at a 10y long noncompetitive clause very kindly.
However what they're trying to do with rent and stream revenue still looks pretty fucked up if everything that was revealed is true.
On September 13 2012 04:52 kliu wrote: whats wrong with a second pair of eyes looking at a contract? seems like MoW didn't want that second look to happen
You sign an NDA to see the contract. You can't just send it off to random people, there needs to be evidence that someone is working as a legal counsel to the party you're contracting. It's not just a "oh trust me he's my lawyer" kind of thing.
Jesus, I understand how much we all love to get in on the drama and what not, but if you don't have at least the basic semblance of business sense why even bother posting in this thread?
Yeah, having to sign an NDA to see the contract seems very legit and doesnt scream "something fishy's going on" at all!
"Something fishy's going", you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about. The fuck are you, some 18 year old frosh in college who thinks he knows everything about the business world?
Ten people want to go to the MoW. Two of them are big names. When negotiating all of the contracts, the house wants to find a way to keep everyone happy but also to keep itself sustained, financially. I know how much you all BLEED E-SPORTS but money is kind of fucking important, the real world doesn't run on HOPES AND DREAMS AND RAINBOWS.
If there were no NDAs to negotiate contracts, the two big name players see that they have to pay a bit more to stay at the house than the smaller players. Now all of a sudden they feel ripped off, and they don't want to go because they feel like they're subsidizing the existence of everyone else there. Now they pull out and the 8 smaller names all have to pay a larger share than they can afford, etc...etc...
Or take teams for instance. You don't think there's an NDA attached to every single contract that a player signs? What if Stephano was being negotiated with and he thought he was worth 2X as much as HuK, and he was able to read HuK's contract exactly. EG now has no ability to negotiate with him.
etc...etc...etc...
There are reasons NDA's and NCC's exist in the business world, and it's not that "something fishy HURR DURR" is going on. It's because people want to protect their financial interests and their ability to operate as a business.
I am quite aware this is the way of the (business) world. But thanks for assuming my ignorance.
>quite aware this is the way of the (business) world.
>thinks NDA's are fishy
Pick 1, buddy.
I dont need to. One doesnt exclude the other.
Edit: and please refrain from calling me buddy, bro.
Please tell me which part of the business world you work in where NDA's do not exist.
Since a lawyer and his client establish a lawyer-client confidentiality relationship that for all intents and purposes makes them one and the same in the eyes of the law -- except in situations when the client wishes to commit criminal acts -- Fuzer had every right to ask his lawyer to check this contract.
On September 13 2012 05:21 OrbitalPlane wrote: I wonder why MoW did not want him to sign the contract BEFORE he came there or at least right when he came there.
Not all contract have to be in a written form. Oral contracts are sufficient in most cases. The written form is often used because of provableness. What i am trying to say is: What they agreed on at the start is binding. It doesn't matter what either party thought what in a contract is written which nobody signed.
If they agreed on signing a contract the transaction starts with the signing. As a result Fuzer could demand all the money back.
If not the oral contract applies.
i think rent/tenant agreements must be in writing. either way the oral agreement is unenforceable because there was no meeting of the minds; i.e. they had differente expectations
Nice do it!! I'm already on my 4th one, from separate emails!!
Are you two for real? People like you ground eSports so fucking hard into the ground. MoW hasn't even released their statement yet and you're already working on destroying everything they built? This could all (probably) be a big misunderstanding, Fuzer already stated English is not his primary language so he might have misunderstood parts of the contract. If you're hoping eSports ever make it mainstream you should man the fuck up and let the involved parties deal with this mess. This is just as retarded as hardcore religious people going on a rampage because of some drawing (which they haven't seen) mock their God.
On September 13 2012 05:17 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear. If you pay someone for a service, and that service is then not rendered for an extended period of the agreed upon time, they can't keep your money even without a receipt. Though I'm all for it and I would encourage everyone to get a receipt in cases like this, if I have to read Destiny or any other idiot post anything more that implies that it would be legally ok for MoW to keep the money because there's no receipt or signed contract, I will blow up a bunny. They still entered into an agreement, they were the ones that told him to leave and they abso-fucking-lutely have to give him the money back for any time he didn't spend there.
Let me just cover myself in saying that in Europe a verbal agreement is still binding, maybe Destiny is not being an idiot but rather just plainly misinformed in that he's following some wacky US law I'm unfamiliar with that would most certainly not apply here.
Hey, I gave you $1000 two days ago. I know you didn't give me a receipt or I can't prove in any way that I gave you the money, BUT GIVE IT BACK NOW OR I BLOW UP ALL THE BUNNIEZZZ!111
Nice do it!! I'm already on my 4th one, from separate emails!!
Are you serious? The idiots that jump on these fucking "e-mail the sponsors" crusades BEFORE the other side even releases an official statement are the epitome of stupidly impulsive.
are YOU serious? The guy is obviously being ironic about the sponsors
Imo Fuzer just didn't understand what was written in the contract. Only bad part about about this whole "drama" is the "10 year you are not allowed to join a team house thing" which I think is probably not true. Its probably more like "don't steal our business plan of making gaming houses"(which is preatty silly to me but...well if thats what they want).
Anyway the rest of the witch hunt here is about the NDA which was clearead out by other posters here because it is a necesity, and the money back thing which depending on how much fuzer stayed from that month in the house and what exactly did he ask for and how, one or the other may be right. If fuzer stayed like 90% of the month and asks for all the money back or if he stayed for 10% of the month and asks for the 90% of the money back are 2 completly diffrent situations. I'll wait for the official statement because I think Ret and other progamers wouldn't sign something ridiculous.
**EDIT: Ow...I forgot about the streaming thing(5 hours/day). Seems kinda shitty to me to split the revenue AFTER you pay the living expenses........ EDIT**
On September 13 2012 04:41 Xcobidoo wrote: Wait so if Ret has signed, then he can't go to any liquidhouse etc.? Ouch :/
Fuzer make mistake in post , dont knowing that or...
You can go to another house.., YOU CANT OPEN OWN house and coach people there. This is in conbtract , not that you cant go to another house.
Are you sure you're not a part of the MoW management? You're acting awfully hysterical considering the situation. You said it yourself: We will know as soon as MoW release their statement. Why defend every comment made about the situation? Fuzers intent was good.
Becase what fuzer write is not true.. ? and i defend the true ? ( dont know abouth rest of the post , but 10 years thing , that you cant join another house is not true ) , you got some problems with true or what ? , i was thinking that everyone wanna true here.. Im not posting abouth rest of Fuzers post , i post only abouth that what he read wrong and then write here.
he got it slightly wrong but it's understandable when english isn't his first language, chill out, you obviously have a vested interest here
True i have some.. because i care for polish e-sport , like i think everyone hwo is interested in e-sports will do for own country. They put a lot of work to make this house working , eveyone who was in the house ( snute , cyto etc ) say it was superb and very profesional and they are happy that they go to Poland , everyone who is in house now say the same Sage , Ret Wilko , all say everything is ok..
But like i write before it all this what Fuzer write is true im goona go to MoW house and kick boss ass for real , for fucking this up. But if this is not true ... then polish e-sport will suffer for nothing.. because of one player..then it not good and fair.
it's not about polish esports, it's about MoW and that's it. and stop saying that fuzer is lying, there is no reason for him to do that and you don't have anything to prove against him.
Gaming house with players from all over to world.. is e-sport for me..
but not POLISH esports, it's not hurting POLISH esports, but just the MoW.
Then you think e-sports are just "players" in this case polish players ? , not places to go.. to watch.. tournaments etc.. ? gaming sponsors like razer interesting to support polish gaming house is not e-sport.. ? , then i end disscusion with you , because you just dont know that is e-sports.
you didn't understand me! it is ESPORTS, but not specifically POLISH! it won't hurt the POLISH scene, it won't hurt the POLISH esports, will only hurt the MoW. get it now?
On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote: 12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait
You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic.
Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways.
MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit).
I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal.
I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest.
People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances.
Where the hell do you live?
Hi, I'm from NYC and have also lived in Buffalo. Rent with utilities and living expenses are $900 and $500 respectively if you cook. You must be wealthy or... idk. The numbers you're giving out sounds ridiculous really. SOme of the numbers you give make sense, but if you really search around then it's more than possible.
Anyways, if what you say is true for yourself then come here to Buffalo or NYC (which is apparently buttfuck nowhere). haha.
I'm confused. So you calculated them to be around $1,400, and that's most likely for an area without all the amenities that the MoW provides. Also, it many places come unfurnished. MoW comes furnished with a ridiculous amount of assets. So you're comparing $1,400 at a place you're talking about (and that's WITHOUT the food being prepared for you, mind you) to a measely 600 Euros per month? What are you even talking about?
On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote: 12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait
You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic.
Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways.
MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit).
I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal.
I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest.
People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances.
Sorry but you're wrong about the rent figure being ludicrous. It entirely depends on where you're living. If you're in Manhattan, NYC, or Westwood, LA, then sure, rent @ 600 euros (~770 dollars) per month per person would be "atrociously insufficient". Maybe you should cite your source for "U.S. standards", if such a thing exists, because I'd be curious to know what the average "monthly rental per person" rate is in the U.S...
So to the point, ~$770/month is actually MORE than many people pay in many less popular/wealthy cities -- and these are not cities, as you say, that are located in the middle of "buttfuck nowhere".
Just needed to clear that up.
Hey man, about Manhattan and NYC as well as large expensive cities in general. Large cities are huge ass things with a large amount of diversity in class. Not everyone is rich and the fact of the matter is, there are plenty of apartments in NYC you can get for cheap because that's where the ordinary working class folk of NYC are. AND no, they do not live in slums for it to be cheap, it's relatively comfortable In Manhattan, you can go Chinatown or Upper-West side.
On September 13 2012 04:41 Xcobidoo wrote: Wait so if Ret has signed, then he can't go to any liquidhouse etc.? Ouch :/
Fuzer make mistake in post , dont knowing that or...
You can go to another house.., YOU CANT OPEN OWN house and coach people there. This is in conbtract , not that you cant go to another house.
Are you sure you're not a part of the MoW management? You're acting awfully hysterical considering the situation. You said it yourself: We will know as soon as MoW release their statement. Why defend every comment made about the situation? Fuzers intent was good.
Becase what fuzer write is not true.. ? and i defend the true ? ( dont know abouth rest of the post , but 10 years thing , that you cant join another house is not true ) , you got some problems with true or what ? , i was thinking that everyone wanna true here.. Im not posting abouth rest of Fuzers post , i post only abouth that what he read wrong and then write here.
he got it slightly wrong but it's understandable when english isn't his first language, chill out, you obviously have a vested interest here
True i have some.. because i care for polish e-sport , like i think everyone hwo is interested in e-sports will do for own country. They put a lot of work to make this house working , eveyone who was in the house ( snute , cyto etc ) say it was superb and very profesional and they are happy that they go to Poland , everyone who is in house now say the same Sage , Ret Wilko , all say everything is ok..
But like i write before it all this what Fuzer write is true im goona go to MoW house and kick boss ass for real , for fucking this up. But if this is not true ... then polish e-sport will suffer for nothing.. because of one player..then it not good and fair.
it's not about polish esports, it's about MoW and that's it. and stop saying that fuzer is lying, there is no reason for him to do that and you don't have anything to prove against him.
Gaming house with players from all over to world.. is e-sport for me..
but not POLISH esports, it's not hurting POLISH esports, but just the MoW.
Then you think e-sports are just "players" in this case polish players ? , not places to go.. to watch.. tournaments etc.. ? gaming sponsors like razer interesting to support polish gaming house is not e-sport.. ? , then i end disscusion with you , because you just dont know that is e-sports.
eSports is hurt by shitty organization doing shitty things to players and the community. Shit like this pushes people away from the scene and its part of the community's responsibility to make sure that things like this don't spread and become harmful.
EPT
This is very retarded situation, but nothing non common.
