On August 25 2012 22:37 vandelayindustries wrote: Has anyone considered that SC2 was doing fine before KeSPA decided to switch from BW to SC2 and that maybe it can continue doing fine independent of them if it chooses?
from what i hear bw scene is still bigger in korea thanks to ogn. for sc2 to actually grow, it needs ogn's help. thats my understanding, i may be wrong.
On August 25 2012 22:18 pPingu wrote: Can anyone translate this please?
"2012 GSL Season 4 & GSTL Season 3 부터는 다시 이전과 동일하게 여러 기록들을 다루도록 하겠습니다. 다루는 범위의 경우에서는 GSL에서의 경기 기록으로 다시 한정됩니다. 이는 이후 KeSPA 선수가 와도 마찬가지 입니다."
i believe he is talking in regards to seeding process. "gsl 4 and gstl 3 will remain the same the way we handle records (i assume player/team records). gsl game records will be used to determine the process and it'll be the same when kespa players join."
"2012 GSL Season 4 & GSTL Season 3 부터는 다시 이전과 동일하게 여러 기록들을 다루도록 하겠습니다. 다루는 범위의 경우에서는 GSL에서의 경기 기록으로 다시 한정됩니다. 이는 이후 KeSPA 선수가 와도 마찬가지 입니다."
I don't exactly know this guy and the context of his tweet, so I won't translate, but I can definitely guarantee you that it has nothing to do with this thread topic. Or ask someone else like OpticalShot or Milkis to translate Edit: Jinorazi translated it right.
Ok thank you
He is the guy that keeps the stats for gom iirc (map win ratio etc)
On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote: [quote]
No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier.
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote: [quote]
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights.
All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it.
In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term.
Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures.
Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
Do you seriously think ESF doesnt represents the players here? They're definitely not nothing more then GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is themselves.
See what I did there?
Why is it so hard for you to believe that ESF is doing all this to protect themselves and their futures from Kespa. Who for the last 10 years have oppressed their own progamers
A 9-post user who registered January 2012 commenting on how Kespa "oppressed their own progamers" wow
A 175 post user who registered May 2012 complaining about other people's post count. Wow. See, worthless to put it that way, so don't?
Now I know why. Do you even have half the brain the understand what I said. If you registered this year, and have 9 posts, how can you know about broodwar, and that kespa oppressed their players. See now? You're welcome for the free education.
Did you know you can use google to find stuff that happened in the past???! It's amazing isn't it, that way one could even learn stuff he hasn't experienced himself. Whooooaaaahhh.
Wow the clowns are out in full force today. Please teach me how to use google to know that "Kespa oppressed its players". And what are you all, his attorney and spokesman or something. Let him defend himself because you are only hurting his cause.
You are telling me that you couldn't stumble across Pro BW on the internet through the YEARS of it being around? You don't need TL to find that. Hell, it's how I found pro BW!
On August 25 2012 22:37 vandelayindustries wrote: Has anyone considered that SC2 was doing fine before KeSPA decided to switch from BW to SC2 and that maybe it can continue doing fine independent of them if it chooses?
from what i hear bw scene is still bigger in korea thanks to ogn. for sc2 to actually grow, it needs ogn's help. thats my understanding, i may be wrong.
From an economical view, though, it is counterproductive to potential profit to focus on a market of 50 million people when there are growing international markets in Europe and the Americas. We have seen from tournaments like IPL, Dreamhack, MLG, etc that foreign interest has drawn sponsors and allowed SC2 to become a sustainable industry without the reliance on KeSPA's hold over the Korean market. This is all information that presupposes that SC2 is not doing well in Korea (how it performs relative to other games—BW, LoL, etc.—is not relevant here), whereas in fact the GSL still offers the most lucrative prize for winning the competition.
Perhaps, however, I am missing some crucial element regarding what KeSPA offers to SC2 that has thus far been lacking.
On August 25 2012 22:37 vandelayindustries wrote: Has anyone considered that SC2 was doing fine before KeSPA decided to switch from BW to SC2 and that maybe it can continue doing fine independent of them if it chooses?
from what i hear bw scene is still bigger in korea thanks to ogn. for sc2 to actually grow, it needs ogn's help. thats my understanding, i may be wrong.
From an economical view, though, it is counterproductive to potential profit to focus on a market of 50 million people when there are growing international markets in Europe and the Americas. We have seen from tournaments like IPL, Dreamhack, MLG, etc that foreign interest has drawn sponsors and allowed SC2 to become a sustainable industry without the reliance on KeSPA's hold over the Korean market. This is all information that presupposes that SC2 is not doing well in Korea (how it performs relative to other games—BW, LoL, etc.—is not relevant here), whereas in fact the GSL still offers the most lucrative prize for winning the competition.
Perhaps, however, I am missing some crucial element regarding what KeSPA offers to SC2 that has thus far been lacking.
That´s kind of my feeling, too. Sure the Korean market is important, but GOM has been doing just fine with all the news of the Korean SC2 scene lacking in numbers. Starcraft has become a much much more international phenomenon. I guess the thing with Kespa and ESF and SC2 is that they´re so big that something just HAS to happen when they enter the scene. Are they needed for the welfare of SC2? Doesn´t seem like it. I mean, competition is all fine and dandy, but Kespa is not like MLG who coexist with other leagues, they have always been known as monopolists and that is bad for everyone, except for themselves.
I would love to know how the number of foreign Kespa supporters increased in the last couple of days, though.
On August 25 2012 22:37 vandelayindustries wrote: Has anyone considered that SC2 was doing fine before KeSPA decided to switch from BW to SC2 and that maybe it can continue doing fine independent of them if it chooses?
from what i hear bw scene is still bigger in korea thanks to ogn. for sc2 to actually grow, it needs ogn's help. thats my understanding, i may be wrong.
From an economical view, though, it is counterproductive to potential profit to focus on a market of 50 million people when there are growing international markets in Europe and the Americas. We have seen from tournaments like IPL, Dreamhack, MLG, etc that foreign interest has drawn sponsors and allowed SC2 to become a sustainable industry without the reliance on KeSPA's hold over the Korean market. This is all information that presupposes that SC2 is not doing well in Korea (how it performs relative to other games—BW, LoL, etc.—is not relevant here), whereas in fact the GSL still offers the most lucrative prize for winning the competition.
Perhaps, however, I am missing some crucial element regarding what KeSPA offers to SC2 that has thus far been lacking.
ogn/kespa is just now considering the foreign market because there is a market for sc2 unlike bw and they're working towards it such as english cast for lol and sc2. foremost ogn is the home of starcraft and its a korean tv station. so sc2 being on ogn will greatly increase sc2's exposure and help bw players to transision. thats why some people are concerned if the first sc2 osl doesn't work out, it'll be bad for sc2 scene in korea.
On August 25 2012 22:37 vandelayindustries wrote: Has anyone considered that SC2 was doing fine before KeSPA decided to switch from BW to SC2 and that maybe it can continue doing fine independent of them if it chooses?
from what i hear bw scene is still bigger in korea thanks to ogn. for sc2 to actually grow, it needs ogn's help. thats my understanding, i may be wrong.
If there's no other growth options for SC2 scene, then you're absolutely correct. But there's still plenty of room to stretch in the foreign market. I don't know why you people deem Korean market so important. It's a nice bonus to have, sure, but not important enough to jeopardize what GSL, IPL, MLG, NASL, and others have built so far with current Korean talent pool, which is predominantly still part of ESF. Koreans will come around when the foreigner scene grows beyond what KeSPA accomplished back in BW era.
On August 25 2012 22:59 Dionyseus wrote: Seems to me ESF is taking this too far and it may backfire.
ESF does the ONLY good move, if kespa not agree gom players stay out of the kespa tournaments and everyhting is fine if they want it to be, but not all to their tournametns, no kespa to gom tournaments so the gom is not as imporent anymore ... nono not this time !
On August 25 2012 22:37 vandelayindustries wrote: Has anyone considered that SC2 was doing fine before KeSPA decided to switch from BW to SC2 and that maybe it can continue doing fine independent of them if it chooses?
from what i hear bw scene is still bigger in korea thanks to ogn. for sc2 to actually grow, it needs ogn's help. thats my understanding, i may be wrong.
From an economical view, though, it is counterproductive to potential profit to focus on a market of 50 million people when there are growing international markets in Europe and the Americas. We have seen from tournaments like IPL, Dreamhack, MLG, etc that foreign interest has drawn sponsors and allowed SC2 to become a sustainable industry without the reliance on KeSPA's hold over the Korean market. This is all information that presupposes that SC2 is not doing well in Korea (how it performs relative to other games—BW, LoL, etc.—is not relevant here), whereas in fact the GSL still offers the most lucrative prize for winning the competition.
Perhaps, however, I am missing some crucial element regarding what KeSPA offers to SC2 that has thus far been lacking.
ogn/kespa is just now considering the foreign market because there is a market for sc2 unlike bw and they're working towards it such as english cast for lol and sc2. foremost ogn is the home of starcraft and its a korean tv station. so sc2 being on ogn will greatly increase sc2's exposure and help bw players to transision. thats why some people are concerned if the first sc2 osl doesn't work out, it'll be bad for sc2 scene in korea.
This makes perfect sense, and as far as I can understand, puts KeSPA between a rock and a hard place regarding the ESF decision. Whether or not the claim of KeSPA that their players cannot reasonably compete in GSL season 4 can be taken at face value as being accurate is a separate debate perhaps; however, what we can surmise is that if they do value the OSL being a success then—given the fact that the Ro16 has been stripped of half its players—their options are extremely limited at this juncture.
On August 25 2012 22:37 vandelayindustries wrote: Has anyone considered that SC2 was doing fine before KeSPA decided to switch from BW to SC2 and that maybe it can continue doing fine independent of them if it chooses?
from what i hear bw scene is still bigger in korea thanks to ogn. for sc2 to actually grow, it needs ogn's help. thats my understanding, i may be wrong.
From an economical view, though, it is counterproductive to potential profit to focus on a market of 50 million people when there are growing international markets in Europe and the Americas. We have seen from tournaments like IPL, Dreamhack, MLG, etc that foreign interest has drawn sponsors and allowed SC2 to become a sustainable industry without the reliance on KeSPA's hold over the Korean market. This is all information that presupposes that SC2 is not doing well in Korea (how it performs relative to other games—BW, LoL, etc.—is not relevant here), whereas in fact the GSL still offers the most lucrative prize for winning the competition.
Perhaps, however, I am missing some crucial element regarding what KeSPA offers to SC2 that has thus far been lacking.
That´s kind of my feeling, too. Sure the Korean market is important, but GOM has been doing just fine with all the news of the Korean SC2 scene lacking in numbers. Starcraft has become a much much more international phenomenon. I guess the thing with Kespa and ESF and SC2 is that they´re so big that something just HAS to happen when they enter the scene. Are they needed for the welfare of SC2? Doesn´t seem like it. I mean, competition is all fine and dandy, but Kespa is not like MLG who coexist with other leagues, they have always been known as monopolists and that is bad for everyone, except for themselves.
I would love to know how the number of foreign Kespa supporters increased in the last couple of days, though.
They were always there, just buried under overwhelming number of people angry about this, and rightly so.
it's not about sponsors it's about PPV model that the events are making money. OGN put a PPV for their LoL foreign site last I checked, MLG has stated by far most of their earnings is PPV, etc etc. If you get 100,000 people to buy a $5 pass that is a lot easier than going to a company and saying "yo plop down 500,000 USD for a video game tournament k thnx".
anyways, just woke up to see this and I'm genuinely surprised esports federation is continuing boycott of OS2L, or rather that they are also asking for extension of GSL4. I'd assume the biggest reason Kespa isn't doing GSL is because of SPL playoffs, where for 4 of the teams all of their time is going to be consumed (as well as a select few players doing WCG and OSL). Trying to get kespa to go into GSL 4 isn't going to work at all. Remember, kespa never saw more than MSL/OSL/Gomtv tournaments at the same time, and hypothetically they changed the bo7 2 day a week proleague format stuff because they thought players were overworked.
The continuing commitment thing is a good choice though to press for, but if ESF is set on extending GSL4 to start immediate involvement OS2L will die.
On August 25 2012 22:26 boag11 wrote: I guess other people telling you how i got my information was not enough.
Yes I lurk on TL and other sites The only reason I even signed up for a TL acct was to do a liquibet, which I lost, as well as to use the TL teamspeak. Yes I've watched many BW OSL/MSL via VODS and or streams Yes I know of the history of Kespa and the sh*t they pulled on their players.
And guess what, I dont post or have accounts on most of the communities I visit or view.
And yes people like you who bash others just because they usually prefer to not always voice their opinions are one of the reasons some communities are sh*t.
++ times infinity.
I detest people who think they can disregard someone's opinion because of the number of posts or how long they have been registered. Its fucking retarded to think the world of eSports only exists within TL and no where else. Or that people can't have been watching/reading about BW without actively posting on TL. Guess what, just because you have been involved in something for a long time doesn't mean that you know more about it or that your opinion is somehow more valid. Infact it is often the other way around. People with a long history have rigid inflexible world views, and their opinions are stilted and subservient to tradition.
To be honest when I heard about kespa players not playing GSL4 it made a bunch of sense to me, they're still playing two games, and they've only been playing SC2 for a few months.
Kespa hasn't been unreasonable so far in SC2, they are signing deals with tournaments, but they're making sure to do it in advance. Maybe kespa and GOM should've started talks earlier.
On August 25 2012 23:04 N.geNuity wrote: it's not about sponsors it's about PPV model that the events are making money. OGN put a PPV for their LoL foreign site last I checked, MLG has stated by far most of their earnings is PPV, etc etc. If you get 100,000 people to buy a $5 pass that is a lot easier than going to a company and saying "yo plop down 500,000 USD for a video game tournament k thnx".
anyways, just woke up to see this and I'm genuinely surprised esports federation is continuing boycott of OS2L, or rather that they are also asking for extension of GSL4. I'd assume the biggest reason Kespa isn't doing GSL is because of SPL playoffs, where for 4 of the teams all of their time is going to be consumed (as well as a select few players doing WCG and OSL). Trying to get kespa to go into GSL 4 isn't going to work at all. Remember, kespa never saw more than MSL/OSL/Gomtv tournaments at the same time, and hypothetically they changed the bo7 2 day a week proleague format stuff because they thought players were overworked.
The continuing commitment thing is a good choice though to press for, but if ESF is set on extending GSL4 to start immediate involvement OS2L will die.
But MSL is gone now. ;_; They definitely have more time to spare than ever. What about the other KeSPA teams that didn't make it to SPL?
Oh thanks for gathering the things together, glad to know esf knows what they are doing, but it is really sad for GOM. On the other hand without esf ... I remember what happened to goms bw broadcast. Guess we won't be seeing kespa players in HotS, doubt they get the license, but will be good for me. I will still be able to see WoL and the Carrier :p.
Kespa decided to skip SC2 when it was still young and a potentially risky switch, instead letting GOM pick up the exclusive contract. IMO they should just accept that they are not and will never be the authority for this game, because someone else stepped up to the plate when they didn't years ago.
All Kespa have to do to save OS2L is to allow Kespa players the option to participate in GSL, as well as an agreement with all involved that that option will not be taken away. Kespa should never of taken away the option for players to play in non Kespa affiliated leagues. Whether you believe ESF and or Kespa is in the wrong, it is hard to deny that all that needs to be done is for Kespa to allow all Kespa players the option to participate in other Tournaments. It should be up to the coaches to decide whether it is beneficial for a player to play in GSL qualifiers or not.
EPT
