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On August 24 2012 07:08 ragz_gt wrote:
They did sign an agreement at the big conference thing everyone was so hyped about. No one knows exact language, but you'd assume there is some guidelines along these lines.
Best thing GOM can do is hope their players crush KeSPA in OSL, which would take all leverage away from KeSPA.
that wouldn't achieve anything
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On August 24 2012 07:08 ragz_gt wrote:
They did sign an agreement at the big conference thing everyone was so hyped about. No one knows exact language, but you'd assume there is some guidelines along these lines.
Best thing GOM can do is hope their players crush KeSPA in OSL, which would take all leverage away from KeSPA.
Great idea. That way Kespa would prevent their players playing GSL even longer since they all got crushed in their OSL -.-
Oops. Wrong quote. Will fix it
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On August 24 2012 07:04 valentine1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:18 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:14 Arkio wrote:
Blizzard IP lawsuit, what happened there? Blizzard backed the fuck down lol. Really in the end who can say who should have won the law suit. Basically arguing over the right to hold tournaments, and the IP because of it (replays and streaming it and tv). They make the game, but KESPA did make the BW esports scene. They also are the ones who held the tournaments and paid the players. Perhaps Blizzard should get a fee for allowing their game in an event, but I think the tournament organizers should have the given right for all content produced for and from that event. Maps VODS Interviews ect. Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. You're right, I completely misunderstood. Apologies. There may however be licensing conditions which we don't know about. eg: 'you can only play televised sc2 games on Wednesdays' which could have been entered into. In that sense, there could be an element of control - ultimately it's Blizzard's game and they do have the power to control KeSPA. Seems to be a bit of a balancing act though, if they ask for too much then KeSPA may not pay. In terms of sharing players, you're right. I don't think licensing rights to IP can influence something as far-reaching as players. It's too remote. It could be dealt with in indirect ways though (in the future, too late now) in ways that Blizzard will concede some right that they have on the promise that KeSPA will let players play in both. I mean KeSPA, even though they're being a bit 'KeSPA-ish' right now, is making the switch to SC2. Can't see them going back to BW. They need this to work and they need to make money. So they'll have to be a bit accommodating... I hope... Sorry I misread your post, didn't mean to sound like a dick.
Not a dick at all sometimes I'm not clear when I write, figured I would fully explain myself.
I see this move as KESPA making a big play. They don't want competition. I wouldn't either. Monopolies are the best if you own it 
I would really love to see the KESPA teams get rid of their KESPA affiliation, and make GOM/OSL their new home. Then I'd like to see those same teams gobble up with current GOM teams (they don't have money and aren't run the best imo). With that we would have paid players, under better organizations, without KESPA trying to make plays all the time to get paid, or more control of the scene.
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On August 24 2012 07:15 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 07:04 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:18 NoobSkills wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard backed the fuck down lol.
Really in the end who can say who should have won the law suit.
Basically arguing over the right to hold tournaments, and the IP because of it (replays and streaming it and tv).
They make the game, but KESPA did make the BW esports scene. They also are the ones who held the tournaments and paid the players. Perhaps Blizzard should get a fee for allowing their game in an event, but I think the tournament organizers should have the given right for all content produced for and from that event. Maps VODS Interviews ect. Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. You're right, I completely misunderstood. Apologies. There may however be licensing conditions which we don't know about. eg: 'you can only play televised sc2 games on Wednesdays' which could have been entered into. In that sense, there could be an element of control - ultimately it's Blizzard's game and they do have the power to control KeSPA. Seems to be a bit of a balancing act though, if they ask for too much then KeSPA may not pay. In terms of sharing players, you're right. I don't think licensing rights to IP can influence something as far-reaching as players. It's too remote. It could be dealt with in indirect ways though (in the future, too late now) in ways that Blizzard will concede some right that they have on the promise that KeSPA will let players play in both. I mean KeSPA, even though they're being a bit 'KeSPA-ish' right now, is making the switch to SC2. Can't see them going back to BW. They need this to work and they need to make money. So they'll have to be a bit accommodating... I hope... Sorry I misread your post, didn't mean to sound like a dick. Not a dick at all sometimes I'm not clear when I write, figured I would fully explain myself. I see this move as KESPA making a big play. They don't want competition. I wouldn't either. Monopolies are the best if you own it I would really love to see the KESPA teams get rid of their KESPA affiliation, and make GOM/OSL their new home. Then I'd like to see those same teams gobble up with current GOM teams (they don't have money and aren't run the best imo). With that we would have paid players, under better organizations, without KESPA trying to make plays all the time to get paid, or more control of the scene.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
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On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:18 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:14 Arkio wrote:
Blizzard IP lawsuit, what happened there? Blizzard backed the fuck down lol. Really in the end who can say who should have won the law suit. Basically arguing over the right to hold tournaments, and the IP because of it (replays and streaming it and tv). They make the game, but KESPA did make the BW esports scene. They also are the ones who held the tournaments and paid the players. Perhaps Blizzard should get a fee for allowing their game in an event, but I think the tournament organizers should have the given right for all content produced for and from that event. Maps VODS Interviews ect. Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways. Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
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On August 24 2012 07:12 Doodsmack wrote:
Very disappointing that GOM players are playing in OSL but Kespa players won't be in GSL. Definitely appears from the outside that Kespa is the one not being cooperative. Sounds like they want to ride the Kespa vs GOM viewer train alone.
And to the people talking about law, please stop. You have no clue about the terms of the contract therefore you have no fucking clue about the legal rights and responsibilities of each party here. If you haven't even been to law school that would be even funnier.
No need to be so aggressive there, guy. Of course we don't know the terms of the contract, but if you have studied law (guess not) then you'd know that there are certain things you can put in a licensing deal and things that you probably wouldn't. I was just having a nice discussion about it with another poster, it was harmless. Not sure what got your trousers in a twist, but next time you're having a discussion about serving up my fries and coke I won't come along and question whether or not you've really worked at Burger King, okay?
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On August 24 2012 07:17 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 07:15 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 07:04 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. You're right, I completely misunderstood. Apologies. There may however be licensing conditions which we don't know about. eg: 'you can only play televised sc2 games on Wednesdays' which could have been entered into. In that sense, there could be an element of control - ultimately it's Blizzard's game and they do have the power to control KeSPA. Seems to be a bit of a balancing act though, if they ask for too much then KeSPA may not pay. In terms of sharing players, you're right. I don't think licensing rights to IP can influence something as far-reaching as players. It's too remote. It could be dealt with in indirect ways though (in the future, too late now) in ways that Blizzard will concede some right that they have on the promise that KeSPA will let players play in both. I mean KeSPA, even though they're being a bit 'KeSPA-ish' right now, is making the switch to SC2. Can't see them going back to BW. They need this to work and they need to make money. So they'll have to be a bit accommodating... I hope... Sorry I misread your post, didn't mean to sound like a dick. Not a dick at all sometimes I'm not clear when I write, figured I would fully explain myself. I see this move as KESPA making a big play. They don't want competition. I wouldn't either. Monopolies are the best if you own it I would really love to see the KESPA teams get rid of their KESPA affiliation, and make GOM/OSL their new home. Then I'd like to see those same teams gobble up with current GOM teams (they don't have money and aren't run the best imo). With that we would have paid players, under better organizations, without KESPA trying to make plays all the time to get paid, or more control of the scene. The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo. Well, telecom companies have no use for foreign markets. Samsung though......
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Terrible news. Well, not like one can expect KESPA to be honorable. If they don't want the 'foreign' viewers, then that's fine. I'll stick to GSL if KESPA can't play ball.
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On August 24 2012 07:02 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:59 sam05396 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:18 NoobSkills wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard backed the fuck down lol.
Really in the end who can say who should have won the law suit.
Basically arguing over the right to hold tournaments, and the IP because of it (replays and streaming it and tv).
They make the game, but KESPA did make the BW esports scene. They also are the ones who held the tournaments and paid the players. Perhaps Blizzard should get a fee for allowing their game in an event, but I think the tournament organizers should have the given right for all content produced for and from that event. Maps VODS Interviews ect. Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. just shut down all korea for "maintenance" whenever osl is on ^^ I'm sure that Korea can find their own private server and play on that.
That would be some serious infringement should they decide to broadcast it.
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On August 24 2012 07:07 mango_destroyer wrote:
we need translations of korean netizens comments regarding this!!
I wish I knew Korean.
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On August 24 2012 07:14 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 07:08 ragz_gt wrote:
They did sign an agreement at the big conference thing everyone was so hyped about. No one knows exact language, but you'd assume there is some guidelines along these lines.
Best thing GOM can do is hope their players crush KeSPA in OSL, which would take all leverage away from KeSPA. Great idea. That way Kespa would prevent their players playing GSL even longer since they all got crushed in their OSL -.- Oops. Wrong quote. Will fix it
No one believes the BS about "players are not ready". KeSPA is banking on that they can get by without cooperating with GOM, and a inferior product would make it alot harder.
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On August 24 2012 07:19 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 07:02 Xiphos wrote:On August 24 2012 06:59 sam05396 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. just shut down all korea for "maintenance" whenever osl is on ^^ I'm sure that Korea can find their own private server and play on that. That would be some serious infringement should they decide to broadcast it.
Yah that wouldn't happen
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On August 23 2012 17:02 Kiyo. wrote:
Disappointing but GOM really shouldn't have said anything. This comes off as a little aggressive towards KeSPA and could increase tensions between the 2 parties.
Normally I'd agree, but the SC2 Fed is sending players into and promoting the OSL expecting the KeSPA players to join their own league in return. But now they've been snubbed.
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On August 24 2012 06:40 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:06 jpak wrote:On August 24 2012 06:03 oBlade wrote:On August 23 2012 22:34 MVTaylor wrote:
Pathetic, I'm not paying OSL or any league related to KESPA a penny until they change their stance. Quite frankly I wouldn't mind if Blizzard black listed the OSL tournament and every KESPA pro gaming house until they change their mind. Finally something useful about bnet 0.2 Lucky for you, OGN have always got their money from advertisements and sponsorships, creating sustainable leagues that are free to watch... This is correct. I never paid a penny to watch BW, and I got all the games live and VODs now are readily available soon after. You and others seem to think that OGN is going to provide free HD, VODs, English commentary, etc. forever. Not gonna happen. As soon as they figure out a way to monetize it they will, just like with LoL.
BW didn't have those for almost all of its life (only official English commentary was for the last BW OSL Finals) and we watched just fine. BW English commentary was done purely by members of the community, and if you paid attention at the beginning of the 2011-2012 season, they were getting flagged and taken down by EsportsTV for using its content, but later allowed them to use that content for English casts in return for putting ads on the videos.
Besides, why would I pay for SC2 when I don't even like watching it?
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On August 24 2012 07:19 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 07:02 Xiphos wrote:On August 24 2012 06:59 sam05396 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. just shut down all korea for "maintenance" whenever osl is on ^^ I'm sure that Korea can find their own private server and play on that. That would be some serious infringement should they decide to broadcast it.
Yeah, that would open up a whole other can of worms that Kespa wouldn't like to deal with.
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On August 24 2012 07:19 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 07:02 Xiphos wrote:On August 24 2012 06:59 sam05396 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. just shut down all korea for "maintenance" whenever osl is on ^^ I'm sure that Korea can find their own private server and play on that. That would be some serious infringement should they decide to broadcast it.
They don't need to do this, they can blacklist venues from bnet as we've seen before.
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On August 24 2012 06:22 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:14 Arkio wrote:
Blizzard IP lawsuit, what happened there? KeSPA shut down the GOMTV Classic (a BW league with English casting) by pressuring teams to drop out. Blizzard then sued for control of the BW scene, basically. They wanted A. The Blizzard logo on stuff B. A license fee to have BW tournaments (this is the part that was controversial) C. To be able to audit KeSPA's finances. They got the logos, but that was it. At the time, a lot of people thought Blizz was trying to kill BW to make room for SC2. GOM, on the other hand, was doing their tournaments with Blizzard's endorsements, and making some efforts to expand the foreign BW scene with foreign BW tournaments and english casting. This is why Blizzard gave GOM the rights to SC2 originally: they were trying to grow "e-sports" while KeSPA was trying to shrink it.
I think you got the order mixed up. While the lawsuit drama was happening at sc2's release everyone said negotiations between blizzard and kespa had been happening for 3 years or since 2007. The GOM season 4 block happened in 2009. (and that was also the year some players like julyzerg couldn't go to blizzcon either because of STX stopping it according to SDM) So the war had already started and probably had a lot to do with Kespa's decision at that time.
Though even GOM classic 4 had 5 of the teams sign up for it and other pros got to go to blizzcon that year so this is an even more unified block than back then if nobody shows up. It would be really nice if things could somehow work out before the qualifiers happen.
I'm curious how you know blizzard only wanted 3 things and they only got 1. Do you have a source? As far as I know kespa was the only ones talking about negotiations and this is what they claimed.
KeSPA has expressed its position of being willing to pay for a rational level of usage fee and appeal its support of marketing and promotion for product line-up of Blizzard with continuous investment such as sharing all contents which belong to KeSPA like pro gamers, broadcasting and sponsorship.
However, Blizzard has asserted not the right as a copyright but unreasonable demands as following.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
Through 3-year negotiations, KeSPA requested Blizzard to withdraw or change some unacceptable conditions to protect the rights and interests of professional gamers, teams and e-Sports fans. Even KeSPA suggested positive cooperation including marketing supports etc, Blizzard has stuck to their principle, not to resume the negotiation, till the KeSPA accept all conditions. But recently, Blizzard distorted the truth of breakdown, claiming KeSPA didn’t admit Blizzard’s IP rights request without unveiling its excessive demand conditions.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123275
Of course they might be lieing, but I still feel like people should always see thier side of the story anyways instead of just saying it was all about them refusing a fee or something.
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On August 24 2012 07:20 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 07:14 jidolboy wrote:On August 24 2012 07:08 ragz_gt wrote:
They did sign an agreement at the big conference thing everyone was so hyped about. No one knows exact language, but you'd assume there is some guidelines along these lines.
Best thing GOM can do is hope their players crush KeSPA in OSL, which would take all leverage away from KeSPA. Great idea. That way Kespa would prevent their players playing GSL even longer since they all got crushed in their OSL -.- Oops. Wrong quote. Will fix it No one believes the BS about "players are not ready". KeSPA is banking on that they can get by without cooperating with GOM, and a inferior product would make it alot harder.
I dont understand how crushing all Kespa players in OSL gotta do with this though o.o
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Business as usual for KeSPA and I literally mean business. As long as the KeSPA players are the real superstars in Korea KeSPA has no incentive to allow players to play on GomTV. And with the things as they are I don't see GSL players overtaking KeSPA people in popularity anytime soon.
Blizzard is getting involved as this hurts the promotion and exposure of SC2 in Korea and hence directly hurts their sales.Not that there's much that they can do about it as far as I can see, maybe they'll consider getting difficult with the next license negotiations with KeSPA. But then again I don't think they can afford not to license PL.
What a sad state of affairs.
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On August 24 2012 07:18 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:58 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:49 valentine1 wrote:On August 24 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:33 Dodgin wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:On August 24 2012 06:18 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 06:14 Arkio wrote:
Blizzard IP lawsuit, what happened there? Blizzard backed the fuck down lol. Really in the end who can say who should have won the law suit. Basically arguing over the right to hold tournaments, and the IP because of it (replays and streaming it and tv). They make the game, but KESPA did make the BW esports scene. They also are the ones who held the tournaments and paid the players. Perhaps Blizzard should get a fee for allowing their game in an event, but I think the tournament organizers should have the given right for all content produced for and from that event. Maps VODS Interviews ect. Blizzard did not care about the BW scene, they were securing their IP rights for SC2. You are 100% incorrect about the outcome of that case, it settled with Blizzard getting the IP rights to SC2 and KeSPA admitting they needed blizzards approval to show SC2 on TV. Blizzard couldn't even get what they wanted for BroodWar, and they've fully secured their rights for SC2? I don't think so. If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? I know that was their goal they weren't necessarily trying to kill BW, but get ready for the eventual switchover from BW, but you really think they won? I don't remember where those television companies/ KESPA said they had to have Blizzard approval for their events, but I will try to find the thread with the outcome again. The #1 reason for no LAN is so Blizzard has 100% control of who can and cannot run tournaments for starcraft 2. Yes, I just found this too.. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308167/A_Historic_Moment_in_eSports-5_2_2012I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM. They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there. Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market. I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract. On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote:On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown? Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways. Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel. Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes? You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that. As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
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EPT
