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Recently, with patch 1.5 coming out, I have been introduced to a slew of new customs, and some customs which aren't as much new as they are simply neglected. Among these, I had a chance to revisit MacroMicro Mod which has had a sudden spike in players actively seeking games with the new patch. I didn't think much of it, I had only played it once or so before, but upon revisiting it, I have realized the potential of this mod is amazing.
For those who have never played, MacroMicro Mod is basically what you would infer it to be from the title - one person does all the macro work and another player controls the units and focuses on micro. The result is a much more precise macro game and build orders in the hands of even a moderatley skilled player preforming the role of Macro, and much cleaner execution of tactics and ability for multitasking for the person devoted for Micro.
The above should be obvious, as 2 brains should be able to effectively mechanically manage a game of Starcraft better than one, especially if they are around the same skill level and have good communication. But take a second and imagine if those particular brains weren't just average players...
Imagine the countless builds of MC macro'd to perfection with Grubby behind the wheel microing his heart out.
Imagine DRG creating an army for Nestea's supercomputer brain to make the absolute perfect decisions with.
Imagine oGsTOP making and endless stream of units for MKP stutter step and drop in multiple locations across the map.
You can obviously go on like this forever, as the possibilities are endless. You can even take it a step further; since there are already two brains acting as one player, why not add two more? Why not throw in a coach or something, to help coordinate all of the players efforts? These are all just random ideas, but really, imagine the possibilities and levels of play you could see with an endless supply of APM and the ability to have more than one person take a look at the situation and make a judgement call.
Now, lets go back a few paragraphs; what if you (the moderately skilled player in plat who likes to describe himself has high plat/low diamond) could play this on ladder? Why would this be any better than a 2v2 or a 1v1?
Personally, I don't play team games nearly as often as I play 1v1s. They are too unpredictable, and to play competitively you need to understand that the game changes completely when you combine two races. The timings are changed completely, and the harshness of an advantage is often magnified simply by the fact that two supplies worth of players either have it or don't. Unless you are at the highest level of 2v2 play you generally just pick something and run with it, because who really knows when that 1-1-1 roach-baneling-ling bust is coming, or how that even plays out when it reaches your bases?
My point is the game is balanced substantially more around the 1v1 format, and it's something we can all feel quite a bit more familiar with. The part I like about this idea the most, is that should you be particularly unfamiliar with a build, there is always someone else who can do it well. Through actually playing (a build you wouldn't play otherwise, wouldn't know how to, ect) it you can see what is strong or weak about it, played out in an ideal scenario (ideal because everything is played out to its potential, the amount and timings of the units provided for you, and your complete attention being able to be given to said units). This ends up teaching you a bit more what a build is capable of doing in good hands, and can also be a great way to to get your feet wet with stuff you would never try in your 1v1 ladder matches. This also provides a really really awesome way for those forever-bronze types to actually enjoy playing a competitive game, and practicing each half of the spectrum with a lot more finesse and added insight.
Over all, you really have to play the mod to really enjoy the concept, and the link again is provided at the top of this OP.
I would love any feedback on this idea of this as a competitive format and ladder option, as I can't really see an argument against it 
Poll: Would you watch professionals play this mod?No (110) 59% Yes (75) 41% 185 total votes Your vote: Would you watch professionals play this mod? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Would you play this mod on ladder?No (109) 70% Yes (46) 30% 155 total votes Your vote: Would you play this mod on ladder? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Also, disclaimer: Not bashing on 2v2, personally I think this is better, but I know everyone has there own tastes and opinions.
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i think there is a cap if one player does only macro, only macro is not that hard, a player like MC would just be bored.. i mean at one point in the game you do nothing then warping in every 40 secons or so...
which leads to the player who micros, there is potential for unlimited improvment.. so basically it would center around the player who micros.. which then again would be a 1v1..
dont understand me wrong, great mod, much fun no doubt.. but competitive? at high level? i dont see it.
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This game was a blast both in BW and in SC2. I was almost never able to play it due to it being on page ~5 pre patch 1.5 but now I can get a game. It's great for practice as well.
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Where is the tldr version.
User was warned for this post
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I played one game with 3 friends. I had the two lower level players macroing and the better ones microing trying to improve their macro while having fun. The thing is, to enjoy the mod to the fullest you have to play with players who have around your skill level or you'll either die because your macroing player do not build enough stuff or your microing player is not on top of the army. The mod is fun and can be usefull but i doubt it would be fun to play in a competitive format because you need to have friends you can speak with on voip AND at the same skill level as you. A good mod for fun and practice but not fit for competitive play IMHO.
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This is an awesome idea. Going to check it out.
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On August 12 2012 02:04 Allscorpion wrote:
Where is the tldr version.
In the title
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So basically its Team Melee from BW?
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was fun in bw is fun in sc2.
And to the people who think the macro guy is bored.
You will realise there is always something to do.
You will be suprised how much you can do if you have the time and dont have to use your units.
Competitive format....
not really But with your friends a lot of fun!
On August 12 2012 02:15 Megaliskuu wrote:
So basically its Team Melee from BW?
More like the famous bw map ... Macro/micro
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On August 12 2012 02:15 Megaliskuu wrote:
So basically its Team Melee from BW?
yeah :D
as far as i understood this, u are just limited to macro or micro, which is in my opinion pretty lame :/
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On August 12 2012 02:03 phil.ipp wrote:
i think there is a cap if one player does only macro, only macro is not that hard, a player like MC would just be bored.. i mean at one point in the game you do nothing then warping in every 40 seconds or so...
which leads to the player who micros, there is potential for unlimited improvement.. so basically it would center around the player who micros.. which then again would be a 1v1..
don't understand me wrong, great mod, much fun no doubt.. but competitive? at high level? i dont see it.
That's the thing though... Starcraft has always been a game of mentally-physical real time chess. The skill ceiling is limitless (have you ever seen the 2 insane zerg computers have a roach war?), and even when we see someone play what looks to be a perfect game, there ae always other things they could be doing to maximize the potential. Imagine every worker being stacked on minerals up to the 4th base and counted for perfect saturation, imagine 3 people microing a marine-baneling engagement, whilst a 4th is dropping in two places? Imagine rarely seeing a game lost because a player was too distracted to notice his stalkers being surrounded by lings carelessly?
Even if there was downtime for the Macro player, the cool part about this is that they can control units as well if they wish, perhaps focusing on defense or something. There is always a place to put APM, and that's the point of this idea.
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On August 12 2012 02:17 borlee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:15 Megaliskuu wrote:
So basically its Team Melee from BW? yeah :D as far as i understood this, u are just limited to macro or micro, which is in my opinion pretty lame :/
Yeah that sounds fucking awful for competitive play, the top payers can do both anyway.
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its the funnest game im always up for playing it lol
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Competetive...lol
The map is awesome to play with friends though, played it a lot before but moved on to Hive Keeper (sc2 adaptation of Dungeon Keeper 2, really awesome except its in beta).
/internet hipster end
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On August 12 2012 02:18 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:17 borlee wrote:On August 12 2012 02:15 Megaliskuu wrote:
So basically its Team Melee from BW? yeah :D as far as i understood this, u are just limited to macro or micro, which is in my opinion pretty lame :/ Yeah that sounds fucking awful for competitive play, the top payers can do both anyway.
You are telling me the top players do everything perfect, never loose units needlessly and always control engagements flawlessly? Please, I would love a link to the VODs of these perfect games of Starcraft that I have apparently been missing.
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always looked for it, should be pretty funny tho .. hopefullyit is like the BroodWar one ...
Anyways, that makes it much easier than
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Add a poll that says "Would you watch professionals play this mod" either for fun or competitively.
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On August 12 2012 02:24 Krayze wrote:
Add a poll that says "Would you watch professionals play this mod" either for fun or competitively.
Good Idea! Done.
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Would love to see this. I think this could be the new 2v2 for teamleagues, since 2v2 in SC2 is, put bluntly, a piece of shit.
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The problem is the game would need an entirely different balance. I've played this quite a bit and the challenges of working as a team affects races disproportionately.
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On August 12 2012 02:30 Jedclark wrote:
Would love to see this. I think this could be the new 2v2 for teamleagues, since 2v2 in SC2 is, put bluntly, a piece of shit.
Personally I think team games in WC3 were much better than SC2 or BW >.<
On Topic, me an my clan members have been playing this custom game for quite a while and thought it would be very interesting
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On August 12 2012 02:32 naggerNZ wrote:
The problem is the game would need an entirely different balance. I've played this quite a bit and the challenges of working as a team affects races disproportionately.
mmm, I don't think the ability to use teamwork is ever a reason to change balance. If you had teamwork, you'd progress, if you didn't, you'd fail. At least that is how I would see it playing out as far as a ladder option. However, it would be pretty easy to troll people... but, not really that much more than you could in a standard 2v2 game.
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Can you play this custom so that you play against 1 person? It would be cool to see a show segment "how many people does it take to beat a pro" or something, I would watch that.
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PLEASE GOD NO. The purpose of this custom game is to do something crazy and fun, not serious and competitive. Making this competitive would RUIN the the game.
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On August 12 2012 02:50 Peanutbutter717 wrote:
Can you play this custom so that you play against 1 person? It would be cool to see a show segment "how many people does it take to beat a pro" or something, I would watch that.
Yes you can! It's a lot of fun!
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On August 12 2012 03:00 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
PLEASE GOD NO. The purpose of this custom game is to do something crazy and fun, not serious and competitive. Making this competitive would RUIN the the game.
You can play any mode for competition or fun, and you can have fun playing competitively as well. As far as the purpose of this mod, the only people who decide what that is for are the people who play it.... seriously what kind of stupid logic is this? ;/
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Competitively? No. For fun? Yes. It's pretty fun as long as you get to be the micro part. If I wanted to macro I would just play a game of 4s.
Cool idea, but it wouldn't catch my eye like typical 1v1s do.
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Wouldn't mind seeing this in like an all-stars event or random fun showmatch.
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for GSTL off the record for fun but never the real deal, this is a 1v1 game T.T Imagine in boxing if one guy moved controlled the feet and one the arms...
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On August 12 2012 03:09 Warpath wrote:
Wouldn't mind seeing this in like an all-stars event or random fun showmatch.
Indeed, even some GM's playing it would be fun to watch. Maybe I will try to get a few strong players to try it out in a b09 or something to watch it play out.
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In the same way occasionally there will be a FFA or 4v4 with pro players at a tourney just for fun, of course it would be fun and entertaining for micro/macro show matches.
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On August 12 2012 03:34 The WingNut wrote:
In the same way occasionally there will be a FFA or 4v4 with pro players at a tourney just for fun, of course it would be fun and entertaining for micro/macro show matches.
With all the comments like this simply stating this format as a novelty, I haven't heard a single strong argument , other than preference. Would anyone care to give some feedback as to why it would be a novelty rather than just stating their opinion that that is what it's best for?
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On August 12 2012 02:15 Megaliskuu wrote:
So basically its Team Melee from BW?
No, its basically Macro Micro from bw.
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It's fun to play, but no one wants to see it on a professional level. Why is it so fun to watch the pros play? To see everything that one person can pull off. Having micro/macro and other tasks allocated to other players would just not be impressive in the slightest.
On August 12 2012 03:43 Vansetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 03:34 The WingNut wrote:
In the same way occasionally there will be a FFA or 4v4 with pro players at a tourney just for fun, of course it would be fun and entertaining for micro/macro show matches. With all the comments like this simply stating this format as a novelty, I haven't heard a single strong argument , other than preference. Would anyone care to give some feedback as to why it would be a novelty rather than just stating their opinion that that is what it's best for?
It would be dumbing down the game. A lot of people already complain about the skill ceiling not being high enough, so they definitely wouldn't like to see this. It'd never take off in the pro scene anyways though.
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On August 12 2012 02:50 Peanutbutter717 wrote:
Can you play this custom so that you play against 1 person? It would be cool to see a show segment "how many people does it take to beat a pro" or something, I would watch that.
The funny thing is the map doesn't even really work that way. Like sure if you practice on it a bunch with people you know you could get used to it and coordinate well together. But a pro with top-tier multitasking is still going to control everything far better than 10 random guys trying to coordinate together.
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Should be played on TL Attack to see how many people a pro can handle. Can ten diamond players working together overcome a pro?
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On August 12 2012 04:21 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:50 Peanutbutter717 wrote:
Can you play this custom so that you play against 1 person? It would be cool to see a show segment "how many people does it take to beat a pro" or something, I would watch that. The funny thing is the map doesn't even really work that way. Like sure if you practice on it a bunch with people you know you could get used to it and coordinate well together. But a pro with top-tier multitasking is still going to control everything far better than 10 random guys trying to coordinate together.
It's a nice claim to make, but I think seeing it played out would be better proof :p I feel like 2-3 masters players could easily take games of high level players.
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On August 12 2012 03:43 SnowFantasy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:15 Megaliskuu wrote:
So basically its Team Melee from BW? No, its basically Macro Micro from bw.
While yes you are true. Team Melee was basically the same thing.
I play this custom map for fun not because I want to watch high level pros play it. To watch pros play it would be about as exciting as a normal 1v1.
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On August 12 2012 04:24 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Should be played on TL Attack to see how many people a pro can handle. Can ten diamond players working together overcome a pro?
Ten Players!?!?!? What on earth would ten diamond players be doing? Keep in mind Diamond is only one league below Masters...... The average mid to high diamond player usually has at least 100 APM. I would say having just 2 players could take on a lot of pros. One just for macro purposes and one for micro would be insane. Think of the possibilities of harassment and control if you didnt need to worry about macro.
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Hahaha, TOP macroing for MKP, you almost got me there buddy.
But seriously no, just doing one of the things a Starcraft game requires is completely boring and unimpressive as fuck. Doing everything at once to the best of your ability is the beauty of an RTS.
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The reason why professional gamers are so amazing to watch, is that they can multitask so well, between micro and macro.
If you let the player concentrate fully on either macro or micro, you lower the skillceiling, and the difference between a grandmaster player and a master player will become much smaller. I think on the highest level, if the players have to only take care of the macro, you will get almost simultaneous results. Therefor the only thing that will decide which team is the best, is the micro-ing player.
For less skilled players, it will allow them to play on a higher level together, but on the absolute highest level i think it just lowers the skillceiling.
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I'd love to see an exhibition where 2 masters players using macro/micro took on DRG
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Poll is typical of what one would expect from TL. Most of the users here focus on 1v1, I guess. And that's not bad or anything, but I think MacroMicro has a place for the more casual players. But then again, those casual players probably don't visit sites like TL or Bnet forums. Maybe.
I'd support it and play it every now and then, much like how I play 2v2s or team games in general. It's another mode of play. And if there's a ladder to find opponents of similar skill, great.
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On August 12 2012 04:46 1ManArmy wrote:
The reason why professional gamers are so amazing to watch, is that they can multitask so well, between micro and macro.
If you let the player concentrate fully on either macro or micro, you lower the skillceiling, and the difference between a grandmaster player and a master player will become much smaller. I think on the highest level, if the players have to only take care of the macro, you will get almost simultaneous results. Therefor the only thing that will decide which team is the best, is the micro-ing player.
For less skilled players, it will allow them to play on a higher level together, but on the absolute highest level i think it just lowers the skillceiling.
Finally, someone responds with a valid argument :D
I still think it would be interesting to just see how the games would actually play out. I don't think it necessarily would lower the skill ceiling, it would just push the skill ceiling harder. Even with 2 people playing, both things won't be done perfectly, but certainly (as long as they knew how to work together) you would see better engagements, less units lost to carelessness ect. Also its not just like mechanics would be the only thing that would change. Having 2 opinions about reading the enemy team's next move and the proper followup while having a bit less to do at times not only provides a 2nd opinion, but also not having AS much stress would probably provide a bit of clarity to not make incorrect snap judgements as often.
However, I'd still love to do some sort of showmatch with this to see if there is any proof in the pudding :p
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On August 12 2012 04:26 WarChimp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 03:43 SnowFantasy wrote:On August 12 2012 02:15 Megaliskuu wrote:
So basically its Team Melee from BW? No, its basically Macro Micro from bw. While yes you are true. Team Melee was basically the same thing. I play this custom map for fun not because I want to watch high level pros play it. To watch pros play it would be about as exciting as a normal 1v1.
Team Melee and micromacro are totally different.
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On August 12 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
Hahaha, TOP macroing for MKP, you almost got me there buddy.
But seriously no, just doing one of the things a Starcraft game requires is completely boring and unimpressive as fuck. Doing everything at once to the best of your ability is the beauty of an RTS.
That is certainly the beauty of the 1v1 format, not necessarily the beauty of an entire genre called RTS.
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
Sounds actually pretty fun, I've played 2v2 with my friend for like, 8 years since the days of WC3 but I really dislike it in SC2. Could allow us to play semi-serious and have fun together like the old times
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This sounds fun for casual games, but all it does for professional games is lower the skill cap (which is already lowered relative to BW); so no, it's terrible for real pro games
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I know this is a little off-topic, but I'm interested in what impact this would have on the role of casters.
I think it would make them almost obsolete.
If anything, the only thing they would actually be able to cast is the crescendo of their voices in response to a massive
battle (at least, in my opinion).
I mean, two players as one entity - if considered in their individual cubicles, such as in a 1v1 setting - don't they always
100% keep to themselves? -- always straight-faced, as unrelenting as a lifelike statue, no words but gl, hf, and gg.
The onus is then on the caster(s) to clarify the probable actions a player would make based on real-time decisions, and
convey their insight upon the watching public. Though.. coming back to the 2-becoming-one player, wouldn't this mod reveal most, if not all plans of one team's gameplay - through simple, but necessary interactions ingame?
Would this mod then make it harder for suspense to take flight (due to the eventual predictability)? And to an extreme
extent, force the casual audience to shy away?
Just curious.
Hi Vans! lol.
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On August 12 2012 05:02 Vansetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
Hahaha, TOP macroing for MKP, you almost got me there buddy.
But seriously no, just doing one of the things a Starcraft game requires is completely boring and unimpressive as fuck. Doing everything at once to the best of your ability is the beauty of an RTS. That is certainly the beauty of the 1v1 format, not necessarily the beauty of an entire genre called RTS.
Well, RTS does mean Real Time Strategy. It's a type of video game where you devise a strategy and build every piece of this strategy in a time constrained fashion in order to beat your opponent. I'm essentially saying that removing some pieces in Starcraft 2 renders the game uninteresting to play, be it 1v1 or 2v2, or XvX for that matter as long as it's vanilla Starcraft 2.
Hmm, maybe I should have said "Starcraft" rather than RTS, but my comment didn't have anything to do with teamplay. When I play 2v2 with my buddy, I want him to play his part fully and expect from me the same in return, turn up those APM and macro/micro our hearts out in unison to beat the other guys. That's how we play anyway, I wish that was the only way to play 2v2, and not with those ugly resource/unit shared mass muta feeding :D
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this game is super stressful to play with strangers if youre any good. if its with friends its fun though
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On August 12 2012 02:18 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:17 borlee wrote:On August 12 2012 02:15 Megaliskuu wrote:
So basically its Team Melee from BW? yeah :D as far as i understood this, u are just limited to macro or micro, which is in my opinion pretty lame :/ Yeah that sounds fucking awful for competitive play, the top payers can do both anyway.
Yea I agree with this. Watching 1v1 pro games are awesome because of how good they are. Having two of them perform the actions of one player just completely detracts from any sense of amazement watching them play.
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This could potentially be an excellent training tool for solo sc2. I personally would be curious to see a match played out by top pros in this format, but I don't think it would ever have the appeal of 1v1 play.
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There are enough of "competitive" games with a low skill ceiling already.
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On August 12 2012 03:04 Vansetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 03:00 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
PLEASE GOD NO. The purpose of this custom game is to do something crazy and fun, not serious and competitive. Making this competitive would RUIN the the game. You can play any mode for competition or fun, and you can have fun playing competitively as well. As far as the purpose of this mod, the only people who decide what that is for are the people who play it.... seriously what kind of stupid logic is this? ;/
Quite frankly, no, at least not for me. I have a lot of trouble doing something and having it be serious and competitive sometimes and crazy and fun at other times. The same goes for lots of people, if 1v1 is any indication.
Secondly, I would probably be running into a bunch of tryhards if this went competitive, which would just be annoying. I play this for shits and giggles, not to win. That isn't to say that I don't want to win, but that certainly isn't my focus, and that just wouldn't gel with the influx of tryhards that would come with this going competitive.
Thirdly, I never said playing something competitively isn't fun, but you can't deny that competitive, ultraserious-type stuff and fun, crazy stuff scratch different itches entirely.
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EPT
