I just wanted to open a discussion on the transition of the top BW players to SC2 and their record in SC2. Some have transitioned well while some haven't. Perhaps we can use this thread to track how the top BW players have transitioned to SC2 (please keep the BW vs SC2 garbage out of this thread - this thread is purely for keeping track of the top BW players' progress in SC2):
Flash - A replay popped up with Flash early on against Kawaiirice, before PL started. While Flash won against Kawaiirice, the video showed how Flash was very rusty in SC2 and lacked the finer points in SC2 for all the hype around him. These perceptions were continued in Flash's debut game in SC2 against Effort. Flash lost his debut game against Effort and people questioned whether Flash could succeed in SC2. Then the MLG exhibition tournament came around and Flash won that tournament quite convincingly, with only Soulkey putting up good games against Flash. Those who questioned Flash's SC2 ability fell silent after Flash's performance at MLG. Since the MLG exhibition tournament though, Flash has a mixed record in SC2 in PL - granted he is often put in Ace matches against harder opponents. In addition, Flash did not qualify for the WCS , losing to Sniper, a Code S Zerg player. To be fair, only one KESPA player though, Reality, qualified for the WCS, amongst all the KESPA players not seeded. While Flash does not have the worst record in SC2 amongst the star BW players (that would probably be Bisu), he hasn't had a stellar transition to SC2 either. All in all, Flash looks like he is heading in the right direction and his play has steadily improved since his debut match against Effort.
Jaedong - Wow, what a 180 degree turnaround from his debut game in PL against By Sun. In JD's debut game against By Sun, we saw a player that didn't understand creep spread and insisted on burrowing roaches under a FF with an observer overhead. JD looked like a silver/gold player in SC2 at the strategical/tactical level even though he has world class mechanics. He would then lose his second match in SC2 before winning his first match as the Ace player in the same day. By the time the KESPA exhibition rolled around at MLG, JD had showed improvement in his play as Zerg, despite his questionable mass queen strategy in the semi-finals against Bisu. Since the MLG exhibition, JD has a decent record in PL, especially in Ace matches, giving him a seed in the WCS. In his last PL match, JD probably showed his strongest match against Bogus with excellent creep spread and great tactical/strategical use of Zerg: http://i.minus.com/ibeutOoxwwhLtF.gif. However, JD did not qualify for the first season of OSL in SC2. Overall, JD is definitely heading in the right direction in SC2 and we wait to see further spectacular games from The Tyrant.
Fantasy - Fantasy opened his SC2 debut with a win in PL. Thereafter, Fantasy was knocked out of the KESPA exhibition match in the first round. However, since then, Fantasy has accumulated a 3-1 record in PL. While the number of games Fantasy has played in SC2 in PL is not much, 3-1 is still a good starting record. Fantasy, like many other KESPA players, would fail to qualify for the WCS. Fantasy also showed some good unit control and decision making in his game against Crazy-Hydra in PL. We probably need more games from Fantasy to see where he is headed (which may be a while since Fantasy is prepping for his BW final against Jangbi) but at this moment, he seems to be transitioning much better than his teamate Bisu.
Neo.G_Soulkey - Soulkey debuted with a loss against trap in PL. Before the KESPA exhibition match at MLG, it was rumored that Soulkey was a GM on the Korean ladder. His play at the KESPA exhibition match confirmed his skill in SC2. Despite losing to Flash 2-0 at the KESPA exhibition match, Soulkey showed great games against Flash and arguably, looked like the only player at the KESPA exhibition match that really put up a fight against Flash. Since then, Soulkey has accumulated a decent record in PL, and has played as the Ace for his team. Soulkey also qualified for the first season of OSL in SC2. Soulkey did not qualify for the WCS through the preliminaries but was seeded by KESPA because of his PL record. To be fair, Soulkey lost to MMA in the WCS qualifiers and MMA seems to have had some type of resurgence lately, making it back to Code S. Soulkey is definitely one of the more successful stories of KESPA players transitioning to SC2 and we definitely await to see more games from him in SC2.
Stork - Stork lost his debut SC2 match in PL. At the KESPA exhibition, he did not fair much better, being cannon fodder for Flash in the first round. However, since the exhibition, Stork has accumulated a 4-2 record in PL, with all 4 wins coming against Terran players. Stork did not qualify for the OSL nor did he qualify for the WCS, although he was one win away from making it to the final round of the WCS preliminaries. We probably need to see more games from Stork in SC2 before we can determine the direction Stork will head in SC2.
Leta - Leta would win in his first SC2 match, albeit, against the slumping Bisu. At the MLG exhibition tournament, Leta was knocked out in the first round. Since then, Leta has a 2-0 record in PL for SC2. In addition, Leta failed to qualify for the WCS and for the OSL. Despite a 100% record in PL, there's too little data on Leta so we will have to wait to see more games from Leta in SC2.
Effort - Effort likely fell short of the list of BW stars for the MLG exhibition but one could argue that he may have deserved to make the list for the MLG exhibition tournament. In his SC2 debut, Effort opened up with a win against Flash. Since then, Effort has a very good record in PL, serving as the Ace for his team. Effort did not qualify for OSL but is seeded for the WCS because of his PL record. Effort is definitely headed in the right direction in SC2 and we look forward to some exciting games in the future from Effort.
Bisu - Despite being one of the most famous BW players, I left Bisu for last. Bisu looked like he was headed in the right direction in SC2 when he made the finals of the KESPA exhibition at MLG. However, Bisu has not won a single game in PL and his game at the WCS qualifer was just horrible. It's probably fair to say Bisu looked a lot like JD on the first day of PL with SC2. The problem is, Bisu STILL looks alot like JD on the first day of PL with SC2. After watchng Bisu's last game at WCS with the "mass sentries," I worry for Bisu. Interestingly, Bisu has not played SC2 for SKT for several weeks. Maybe Bisu is still experimenting with SC2 - I don't know. We can only hope that Bisu "gets it" soon - it would be such a shame for a gifted player like Bisu if this is how it ends for him.
I didn't list everybody here - some notable exceptions include Zero, Calm, Sea, Baby, Kal, etc. I encourage others to write a summary of how the other players are doing and perhaps we can use this thread to keep track of the success (or lack of success) of KESPA stars as they transition to SC2.
Nice text. As former wc3 player im really excited to see bw pros progrsss, and if they really deserve to own gsl playera and take their place, its fine if they are really the best. I have one question , did some retired/inactive or less active bw pro started playing sc2 recently? And whats the thing with fbh? Is he now going to army or ifinishing with it soon?
For Fantasy, I would say that he looks a lot better after the MLG Invitational compared to during and before it. His first game against BByong was flat out the very definition of messy. It was entertaining, but only because it was a constant slugfest of low-economy, almost foolish aggression. Of course, he got smashed by Soulkey during the invitational, but his play was somewhat decent there, although rather standard.
However, he looked very solid against Crazy-Hydra afterwards, playing Antiga Shipyards with a solid, textbook style that I was impressed with. He picked apart BByong in a rematch in Proleague with a brilliant rush build, though we never got to see his mid or late game TvT play because of it.
The most notable exclusion from your list has to be By.Sun. He's my favorite among the Kespa players, and has repeatedly been played as Ace despite losing some important matches.
Of the players you listed above, Stork and Jaedong are definitely on the rise. Jaedong has won 4 straight Ace matches regardless of his performance in the other sets. Pretty impressive mental fortitude.
Bisu has been horrible, and I don't understand why.
jangbi was pretty impressive :D as someone who didn't follow BW that much i think my favourites are JangBi and Jaedong! I need to find a terran to support =]
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
On July 26 2012 00:21 opterown wrote: jangbi was pretty impressive :D as someone who didn't follow BW that much i think my favourites are JangBi and Jaedong! I need to find a terran to support =]
I rec BaBy! Only 17 and already a veteran (sort of)
I wouldn't be suprised if Bisu decides to retire after this PL ends, many have retired due to SC2 not being their cup of tea and even among the best of BW that should not be an exception.
I'm suprised you didn't mention ZerO though, he has had some pretty damn good games and is one of the stronger SC2 Kespa players from what I have seen. Woongjin Stars are #1(or were, didn't check properly) leading in the hybrid league with fairly good SC2 results. Their roster includes Shy, Light, ZerO and Soulkey among others.
Reality qualified for WCS btw(beating Symbol 2-0, and several players had good runs, Snow (as Terran for gods sake) beat Nestea for example.
When Hybrid PL ends and the Kespa players can fully focus on SC2 only, I expect them that with time they will be able to catch up/surpass players.
Ow and Fantasy is 110% focusing on BW right now, he is in the finals of the OSL after all, without losing a single game. I expect him to do very well when OSL ends if he can find the passion for SC2.
On July 26 2012 00:21 opterown wrote: jangbi was pretty impressive :D as someone who didn't follow BW that much i think my favourites are JangBi and Jaedong! I need to find a terran to support =]
I rec BaBy! Only 17 and already a veteran (sort of)
Agreed on Baby, he is looking strong in SC2 right now as well.
great post thanks i was almost sad to hear that flash lost his debut game, only to see him dominate at MLG. still not sure about it but i wish him the best of luck!!11
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
On July 26 2012 00:32 FireBlast! wrote: I think SC2 Protoss does not favour Bisu... I see him as more of a MMA-style Terran
He did say in BW that he likes to play aggressively and that in SC2 the playstyle of Protoss is not agressive. So part of me wonders if it's just a general playstyle difference that is tripping him up so much.
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
Where are GSL players talking shit exactly? And there is absolutely no way they will have another hybrid proleague, Kespa should know by now its a dumb idea.
I think Jaedongs performance in the ace matches are most impressive. On two of those cases he lost his earlier SC2 match but still went up to the ace match and came back with a victory for his team.
Great post, thank you sir! To Bisu: I really hope he finds a way to figure things out for him, would be such a shame to see him retire, even if this means he has to raceswitch.
On July 26 2012 01:11 Luisa_2 wrote: Great post, thank you sir! To Bisu: I really hope he finds a way to figure things out for him, would be such a shame to see him retire, even if this means he has to raceswitch.
Heart of the Swarm is coming. It is a great opportunity for bisu.
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
Where are GSL players talking shit exactly? And there is absolutely no way they will have another hybrid proleague, Kespa should know by now its a dumb idea.
Just read recent interviews after GSL, OSL and WCS, basically it would shame any GSL player to lose to Kespa player as it stands now. Source on the hybrid league still continuing (I hope it changes but that's all I've heard) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353303
On July 26 2012 00:21 opterown wrote: jangbi was pretty impressive :D as someone who didn't follow BW that much i think my favourites are JangBi and Jaedong! I need to find a terran to support =]
Should take a look at reality, qualified for WCS and also beating Symbol 2-0 doing so
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
I read all the interviews and can't recall who talked shit about who. Most of the players only said that because BW players have to play 2 different games at the same time, so they can't concentrate and the level is not there yet, and the rest are trash talk between friends, like MVP/Soulkey. If you think that kind of talk is shit, then well, I guess it is to you. Although MKP was kind of talking shit about Reality, but Reality provoked first.
honestly, bisu is my favourite player i would hate to see him quit progaming, but i would not be surprised one bit if he announces his retirement/going to military etc at the end of the hybrid league
On July 26 2012 00:32 FireBlast! wrote: I think SC2 Protoss does not favour Bisu... I see him as more of a MMA-style Terran
I agree with this a lot. as a person who played protoss in brood war and tried protoss during beta. I am %100 sure that sc2 protoss doesn't reward Bisu's gameplay. (The entire design is not suitable for his play if you ask me but let's not start a shitstorm)
So, (Talking about WoL, can't say anything about HoTS) Terran seems more suitable for him at this stage of the game.
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
Where are GSL players talking shit exactly? And there is absolutely no way they will have another hybrid proleague, Kespa should know by now its a dumb idea.
Just read recent interviews after GSL, OSL and WCS, basically it would shame any GSL player to lose to Kespa player as it stands now. Source on the hybrid league still continuing (I hope it changes but that's all I've heard) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353303
Well ofc it would shame, you got people playing 2 games at the same time and others 1. I don't think its meant disrespectful, hell didn't soulkey said the same? And dam. if that is truly keeps going on i feel sorry for the kespa players.
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
Where are GSL players talking shit exactly? And there is absolutely no way they will have another hybrid proleague, Kespa should know by now its a dumb idea.
Just read recent interviews after GSL, OSL and WCS, basically it would shame any GSL player to lose to Kespa player as it stands now. Source on the hybrid league still continuing (I hope it changes but that's all I've heard) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353303
Well ofc it would shame, you got people playing 2 games at the same time and others 1. I don't think its meant disrespectful, hell didn't soulkey said the same? And dam. if that is truly keeps going on i feel sorry for the kespa players.
I guess shit talk was a little strong as I'm sure there's no negative intent but it's really depressing we can't see people focus on one game.
I think Bisu needs to switch to Terran. His strength is Multitasking, and Protoss has non of that(If you want to win the game that is). I don't know, maybe he'll pull out some crazy WP strats. But, right now, and even from the way HOTS looks like, their isn't much to Multitask as a Protoss.
To be fair, HerO has shown that you can be succesfull as protoss in sc2 without just doing deathball super passive play or gimmicky 2base timings only, so i hope Bisu can get it together too.
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
what? Almost ALL the GSL players have been very complimentary of the Kespa players and have acknowledged that having to play both games is very tough. The only player I have seen talk shit was MKP when he mentioned Reality in his Code A interview. But that was said because Reality said he could beat any GSL Zerg just because he beat Symbol ( he did play well vs Symbol but if you look at the games, Symbol was playing pretty poorly)
Cool post but it'd be even cooler if there was some discussion of not just whether they are winning or losing but how they are playing the game.
My biggest hope for the BW influx is not that we will have guys who can train up to beat GSL players at their own game but rather guys who will change the game.
SC2 is supposed to be mechanically easier so I want to see guys with better mechanics playing all over the map, doing different splits/flanks/multi-pronged harrass etc.
On July 26 2012 00:32 FireBlast! wrote: I think SC2 Protoss does not favour Bisu... I see him as more of a MMA-style Terran
He did say in BW that he likes to play aggressively and that in SC2 the playstyle of Protoss is not agressive. So part of me wonders if it's just a general playstyle difference that is tripping him up so much.
I remember him saying that he can't profit of his multitasking with protoss in SC2, had to dig out the interview again though... The translation was posted somewhere here in the forums.
"A lot of people say your advantage in Brood War was your excellent mechanics and multi-tasking. But with the easier interface, do you think your advantage has been reduced?
The racial balance is a bit different in this game, and the unit counter relationships are totally different. So far, I don't really feel the need for so much multi-tasking with Starcraft II Protoss. So right now, I don't really know what the advantage/disadvantage is of having fast hands."
On July 26 2012 01:31 GinDo wrote: I think Bisu needs to switch to Terran. His strength is Multitasking, and Protoss has non of that(If you want to win the game that is). I don't know, maybe he'll pull out some crazy WP strats. But, right now, and even from the way HOTS looks like, their isn't much to Multitask as a Protoss.
This is true. Protoss multitask is mainly on the defense side (defending multi pronge attacks) and also in the mid to late game with wrap prism. And even with prisms, it is more like flying prism over and warping it zealots and maybe targeting drones or buildings. Stuff like storm drops is still rare.
JD still seems to be pretty rusty against 2 base all ins from P. As long as he can practice the correct reactions to them then he should get better against P, but other than that he seems to be destroying in the other matchups. I would have had Effort as the best Kespa player until he failed in the OSL (or WCS can't remember) prelims, and lost twice in one PL match.
Stork seems to be very average, Bisu probably the worst out of all players, can't judge Fantasy because he hasn't played in PL much + he has BW OSL, and Flash is really freaking gosu although it's not showing in PL. Flash doesn't drop much, which I think he needs to do more of.
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
what? Almost ALL the GSL players have been very complimentary of the Kespa players and have acknowledged that having to play both games is very tough. The only player I have seen talk shit was MKP when he mentioned Reality in his Code A interview. But that was said because Reality said he could beat any GSL Zerg just because he beat Symbol ( he did play well vs Symbol but if you look at the games, Symbol was playing pretty poorly)
Agreed, symbol has the Team League/Individual League curse going on with him, nothing about him particularly impresses me anymore, but with that DRG looked terrible against naniwa, zergs seem to be slumping a little bit somehow. Reality played pretty good though, if symbol played how he can play he wouldn't of won though.
On July 26 2012 01:37 RinconH wrote: Cool post but it'd be even cooler if there was some discussion of not just whether they are winning or losing but how they are playing the game.
My biggest hope for the BW influx is not that we will have guys who can train up to beat GSL players at their own game but rather guys who will change the game.
SC2 is supposed to be mechanically easier so I want to see guys with better mechanics playing all over the map, doing different splits/flanks/multi-pronged harrass etc.
Well there is no real discussion to be had, most of the BW players are transitioning what all players did throughout the beta and first few seasons of GSL or doing cheesy builds built off of BW like hiding tech.
Once they understand the game the real strategies will be coming out. You have to remember that it took a long time for BW to finally settle into a solid state, countless players redefined the game. I believe a few of the KeSPA players may crush GSL players at their own game, but I doubt any will bring something new to the table that change the matchups. At least before HoTS and that puts everything up in the air.
On July 26 2012 00:32 FireBlast! wrote: I think SC2 Protoss does not favour Bisu... I see him as more of a MMA-style Terran
He did say in BW that he likes to play aggressively and that in SC2 the playstyle of Protoss is not agressive. So part of me wonders if it's just a general playstyle difference that is tripping him up so much.
I huess shame on me for thinking that i wouldnt get gsl spoilers in a thread about bw players in sc2. Either way, good thread. Fille in holes in my knowledge about people besidesjaedong and flash and bisu
I feel bad for bisu the most. His wcs games were so bad. They were some of the worst games I've ever seen from a pro. Someone needs to tell him sentries only tickle enemies and you need an actual army to back them up.
On July 26 2012 01:54 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Jangbi's worth a mention too as someone who looks to have taken to Sc2 really well. Which Kespa player has the best win rate so far?
On July 26 2012 00:32 FireBlast! wrote: I think SC2 Protoss does not favour Bisu... I see him as more of a MMA-style Terran
He did say in BW that he likes to play aggressively and that in SC2 the playstyle of Protoss is not agressive. So part of me wonders if it's just a general playstyle difference that is tripping him up so much.
He needs to watch HerO :s
There is big gap between what hero does in PvZ and what Protoss in BW can do in general (all 3 MU). Playing protoss is playing PvZ, PvT, PvP.
On July 26 2012 01:58 Canucklehead wrote: I feel bad for bisu the most. His wcs games were so bad. They were some of the worst games I've ever seen from a pro. Someone needs to tell him sentries only tickle enemies and you need an actual army to back them up.
Well the difference between BW and SC2 is that in Brood War, as long as you have the mechanics to back it up, you can win with only one type of unit and just power through. Its a different story because SC2 don't have that.
Bisu needs to innovate Warp Prism drops, maybe doing double drops, one with a collossus and the other with sentries . Ok High Templars and Sentries are more convenient lol.
On July 26 2012 02:13 MetalPanda wrote: Bisu needs to innovate Warp Prism drops, maybe doing double drops, one with a collossus and the other with sentries . Ok High Templars and Sentries are more convenient lol.
He needs to stop dieing to standard 2 Medivac timings before he can start doing that
On July 26 2012 01:58 Canucklehead wrote: I feel bad for bisu the most. His wcs games were so bad. They were some of the worst games I've ever seen from a pro. Someone needs to tell him sentries only tickle enemies and you need an actual army to back them up.
Well the difference between BW and SC2 is that in Brood War, as long as you have the mechanics to back it up, you can win with only one type of unit and just power through. Its a different story because SC2 don't have that.
Let's clarify here. BW's higher skill ceiling had strats that were impossible if you didn't have Bisu-level APM, like sair-reaver. SC2 just doesn't have barriers on that level, not to mention Protoss units aren't even stronger than their counterparts since all races have a dragoon.
And doing that stuff at 400 real APM is much more difficult than 'picking a good unit composition.'
I dont think Bisu is that much of a quiter. Even if he never won an OSL, he is still was one of the best brood war players in the world. The thing is he also started practicing starcraft 2 and if he started I dont see why you would waste time so much.
It's not really about style or whatever for Bisu. From what I have seen he's just bad at SC2 right now. The only thing he need to improve is his overall skill.
On July 26 2012 01:58 Canucklehead wrote: I feel bad for bisu the most. His wcs games were so bad. They were some of the worst games I've ever seen from a pro. Someone needs to tell him sentries only tickle enemies and you need an actual army to back them up.
Well the difference between BW and SC2 is that in Brood War, as long as you have the mechanics to back it up, you can win with only one type of unit and just power through. Its a different story because SC2 don't have that.
Let's clarify here. BW's higher skill ceiling had strats that were impossible if you didn't have Bisu-level APM, like sair-reaver. SC2 just doesn't have barriers on that level, not to mention Protoss units aren't even stronger than their counterparts since all races have a dragoon.
And doing that stuff at 400 real APM is much more difficult than 'picking a good unit composition.'
He should have use dat apm to make more them sentries forcefields haha.
On July 26 2012 02:43 Wildmoon wrote: It's not really about style or whatever for Bisu. From what I have seen he's just bad at SC2 right now. The only thing he need to improve is his overall skill.
Wrong, he have TOP level multitask but the style in which Protoss is suppose to be played have hampered his ability. It is really about style or whatever for him.
On July 26 2012 02:43 Wildmoon wrote: It's not really about style or whatever for Bisu. From what I have seen he's just bad at SC2 right now. The only thing he need to improve is his overall skill.
Wrong, he have TOP level multitask but the style in which Protoss is suppose to be played have hampered his ability. It is really about style or whatever for him.
No, before you will worry about style you will have to be atleast good at the game first. His multitask is great and all but the fact is it's different game. The pace is different. It's not like you can suddenly use your BW's multitask in SC2. Right now he won't do any better if he switch to terran or zerg.
On July 26 2012 02:43 Wildmoon wrote: It's not really about style or whatever for Bisu. From what I have seen he's just bad at SC2 right now. The only thing he need to improve is his overall skill.
Wrong, he have TOP level multitask but the style in which Protoss is suppose to be played have hampered his ability. It is really about style or whatever for him.
If he wasn't just bad at the game he would still do a lot better than he currently does. No matter if protoss doesn't fit his style he should still have been able to adapt better than he has so far. I still have high hopes for him though.
If you ask me about any BW players record between 2009-2012, I can tell it by heart. And so can most people on TL. The scene was just that amazing. A thread like this wasn't ever necessary because the knowledge was assumed. This is quality thread but speaks more about the state of the scene than the actual games. I hope things get real when R3 of SPL starts
I'd like to see this information on jangbi and/or baby as well.
regardless, they're doing as well as I could have expect them to. however flash's mechanics looked better than the other sc2 pro's in a fpvod and he'll get better in time
On July 26 2012 02:43 Wildmoon wrote: It's not really about style or whatever for Bisu. From what I have seen he's just bad at SC2 right now. The only thing he need to improve is his overall skill.
Wrong, he have TOP level multitask but the style in which Protoss is suppose to be played have hampered his ability. It is really about style or whatever for him.
No, before you will worry about style you will have to be atleast good at the game first. His multitask is great and all but the fact is it's different game. The pace is different. It's not like you can suddenly use your BW's multitask in SC2. Right now he won't do any better if he switch to terran or zerg.
You just shot yourself in your own foot by agreeing that the races are played differently.
Beside Bisu is still 50/50 with Brood War and StarCraft 2 while others are most 80% SC2 and 20% BW.
And oh in BW, Terran was the defensive race, Protoss was the aggressive one. In SC2, the whole dyanamics have shifted vice versa since Siege Tanks are nerfed to oblivion, Terran getting a shitload of harass oriented units while Protoss have lost pretty much most of their offensive aspects and Bisu took advantage of them.
As many have said in the thread, he would fare much better if he switched races because the race as a whole don't reward aggressive plays nearly as much as its older brother.
Bisu is 2nd there with a 5-1 BW score while he has a 0-5 SC2 score.
Agreed. The op is a good writeup of what happened yet, but it should be pointed out that the players are not fully dedicated to the transition yet, considering that they still have to be prepared for bw games. So it's not like the players tried hard for several months and this is the result, it's more like the players slowsly started to become more familiar with sc2.
The most impressive player for me is JangBi. Sure he failed the preliminary for WCS but his loss was a PvP. He beat two GSL Zerg there. Although they are not high level Z (Galaxy and Luvsic), considering that he is in OSL Final and should not practice SC2 at all right now, that is a very impressive result. He even has a strat named after him in SC2 strategy section (although the build was from his coach).
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
what? Almost ALL the GSL players have been very complimentary of the Kespa players and have acknowledged that having to play both games is very tough. The only player I have seen talk shit was MKP when he mentioned Reality in his Code A interview. But that was said because Reality said he could beat any GSL Zerg just because he beat Symbol ( he did play well vs Symbol but if you look at the games, Symbol was playing pretty poorly)
Agreed, symbol has the Team League/Individual League curse going on with him, nothing about him particularly impresses me anymore, but with that DRG looked terrible against naniwa, zergs seem to be slumping a little bit somehow. Reality played pretty good though, if symbol played how he can play he wouldn't of won though.
On July 26 2012 01:37 RinconH wrote: Cool post but it'd be even cooler if there was some discussion of not just whether they are winning or losing but how they are playing the game.
My biggest hope for the BW influx is not that we will have guys who can train up to beat GSL players at their own game but rather guys who will change the game.
SC2 is supposed to be mechanically easier so I want to see guys with better mechanics playing all over the map, doing different splits/flanks/multi-pronged harrass etc.
Well there is no real discussion to be had, most of the BW players are transitioning what all players did throughout the beta and first few seasons of GSL or doing cheesy builds built off of BW like hiding tech.
Once they understand the game the real strategies will be coming out. You have to remember that it took a long time for BW to finally settle into a solid state, countless players redefined the game. I believe a few of the KeSPA players may crush GSL players at their own game, but I doubt any will bring something new to the table that change the matchups. At least before HoTS and that puts everything up in the air.
You might be right in that they may not change the metagame before HotS, but moreso than anywhere, Kespa teams tend to create their own styles. I fully expect that to shine once the expansion comes out and have these teams really change the way the game is played.
My theory is that the players who have practiced BW the most also have the BW habits the most ingrained in them- mechanics, muscle memory, pathing, etc. So may be they have the hardest time unlearning playing BW.
Jangbi doesn't get enough love... Two OSL finals in a row and eh doesn't make this list. He seems to be doing alright in SC2 too, better than Bisu, despite probably practicing mostly BW because of OSL unlike most of the other kespa players. Jangbi fighting.
On July 26 2012 03:01 Emon_ wrote: If you ask me about any BW players record between 2009-2012, I can tell it by heart. And so can most people on TL. The scene was just that amazing. A thread like this wasn't ever necessary because the knowledge was assumed. This is quality thread but speaks more about the state of the scene than the actual games. I hope things get real when R3 of SPL starts
Yes it speaks about the state of the scene, but what it says isn't bad. The fact is that a lot of people aren't paying much attention to SPL because there are tons of other events going on, many of which have better play quality than the SPL has right now. There's so much SC2 going on it's basically impossible to follow all of it.
Reality - Reality started with the Proleague Season 2 started out with a record 2-3 in the 1st round. In the 2nd round he had a better record for his Starcraft II games with a 2-1. First non-team game was in the OSL KeSPA Preliminaries was not very successful. Reality lost his very first match to StarDust 2-1. Reality didn't seem to be on anyone radar but then the magic happened. He went into the WCS where KESPA/Non-Kespa players were playing against each other. Beating Symbol 2-0 and Heart 2-1. Heart was the only person to take a game off of him during the WCS. He was the only KESPA player to make it through the preliminaries without being qualified. Reality seems like he maybe a force to reckon with. Time will only tell if he can play with the other big name Non-KESPA players.
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
On July 26 2012 09:33 stalife wrote: When I used to watch BW, best was one of the best players though I don't think he had any major wins... when did he become irrelevant?
Failing to secure a win in the PL final against Flash. And had a godly Protoss vs Terran streak only to be stopped by Flash.
On July 26 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote: When will this crappy hybrid proleague end anyways? I want to see them actually practice SC2 instead of trying to prepare for both.
Yeah same, kinda annoyed the GSL players talking shit when Kespa players have to split their time between two games.
Really really want to see Kespa devote everything they have, though the transition to SC2 hasn't been that smooth for the fans so I think hybrid Proleague will continue next season as well.
Where are GSL players talking shit exactly? And there is absolutely no way they will have another hybrid proleague, Kespa should know by now its a dumb idea.
Just read recent interviews after GSL, OSL and WCS, basically it would shame any GSL player to lose to Kespa player as it stands now. Source on the hybrid league still continuing (I hope it changes but that's all I've heard) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353303
Well ofc it would shame, you got people playing 2 games at the same time and others 1. I don't think its meant disrespectful, hell didn't soulkey said the same? And dam. if that is truly keeps going on i feel sorry for the kespa players.
No, that decision was in answer to the request to change this season's format to hybrid. Next season will 100% be SC2 only.
On July 25 2012 23:42 ghostnuke1234 wrote: We can only hope that Bisu "gets it" soon - it would be such a shame for a gifted player like Bisu if this is how it ends for him.
How is Bisu gifted? I thought it's about practice and passion for the game.
On July 26 2012 01:31 GinDo wrote: I think Bisu needs to switch to Terran. His strength is Multitasking, and Protoss has non of that(If you want to win the game that is). I don't know, maybe he'll pull out some crazy WP strats. But, right now, and even from the way HOTS looks like, their isn't much to Multitask as a Protoss.
This is true. Protoss multitask is mainly on the defense side (defending multi pronge attacks) and also in the mid to late game with wrap prism. And even with prisms, it is more like flying prism over and warping it zealots and maybe targeting drones or buildings. Stuff like storm drops is still rare.
Wasn't there a rumour that Bisu wanted to switch to Terran before we saw his MLG appearance?
On July 25 2012 23:42 ghostnuke1234 wrote: We can only hope that Bisu "gets it" soon - it would be such a shame for a gifted player like Bisu if this is how it ends for him.
How is Bisu gifted? I thought it's about practice and passion for the game.
On July 26 2012 01:31 GinDo wrote: I think Bisu needs to switch to Terran. His strength is Multitasking, and Protoss has non of that(If you want to win the game that is). I don't know, maybe he'll pull out some crazy WP strats. But, right now, and even from the way HOTS looks like, their isn't much to Multitask as a Protoss.
This is true. Protoss multitask is mainly on the defense side (defending multi pronge attacks) and also in the mid to late game with wrap prism. And even with prisms, it is more like flying prism over and warping it zealots and maybe targeting drones or buildings. Stuff like storm drops is still rare.
Wasn't there a rumour that Bisu wanted to switch to Terran before we saw his MLG appearance?
Bisu has one of the best multi-tasking abilities out of all the BW pros. In BW, he specialized in mass harassment and map control with stuff like Corsairs picking off Overlords, random Zealot harassment to Zerg expos, while macroing up a storm. It's why his PvZ in BW was considered one of, if not the strongest, while his PvT was relatively weak. PvZ is all about map control and keeping Zerg under control while PvT was more of a mass-expand, mass-maco, and basically throw shit at the meching Terran before they get a 3/3 mech ball. I'm way oversimplifying but that's the general idea. All the top BW pros have incredibly practice discipline and passion for the game ('cept maybe Stork )
I think Bisu himself said or was rumored to say that Terran suited his style more. But fans wanted to see one of the best Protoss players of all time continue to play Protoss so... Honestly I think he'll be better off switching races even though I really want to see him succeed with Protoss.
On July 26 2012 00:32 FireBlast! wrote: I think SC2 Protoss does not favour Bisu... I see him as more of a MMA-style Terran
He did say in BW that he likes to play aggressively and that in SC2 the playstyle of Protoss is not agressive. So part of me wonders if it's just a general playstyle difference that is tripping him up so much.
He needs to watch HerO :s
There is big gap between what hero does in PvZ and what Protoss in BW can do in general (all 3 MU). Playing protoss is playing PvZ, PvT, PvP.
Well, PvP is by nature already very agressive for a long time. Only the rare games that go to the lategame become somewhat passive, while warp prism harras is still possible.
On July 26 2012 00:21 opterown wrote: jangbi was pretty impressive :D as someone who didn't follow BW that much i think my favourites are JangBi and Jaedong! I need to find a terran to support =]
I rec BaBy! Only 17 and already a veteran (sort of)
exactly what I was about to say. Baby is such an exceptionally talented player... and such a fast player.
Stork seems to getting more solid grasp, he is looking already decent in PvT though im not expert in this MU but certainly strong in Kespa PvT. Day and night difference compared to how he looked at MLG where he was missing forcefields on ramp.
Stork was always the type of player who excelled in smart technical play, clever build orders and preparation and those things always come last. I think Jangbi will bloom earlier, he is younger, more fierce version of Stork. Stork will regain composure whenever he finally get grasp on current metagame and game mechanics.
On July 26 2012 09:30 Coolness53 wrote: Reality - Reality started with the Proleague Season 2 started out with a record 2-3 in the 1st round. In the 2nd round he had a better record for his Starcraft II games with a 2-1. First non-team game was in the OSL KeSPA Preliminaries was not very successful. Reality lost his very first match to StarDust 2-1. Reality didn't seem to be on anyone radar but then the magic happened. He went into the WCS where KESPA/Non-Kespa players were playing against each other. Beating Symbol 2-0 and Heart 2-1. Heart was the only person to take a game off of him during the WCS. He was the only KESPA player to make it through the preliminaries without being qualified. Reality seems like he maybe a force to reckon with. Time will only tell if he can play with the other big name Non-KESPA players.
On July 26 2012 02:43 Wildmoon wrote: It's not really about style or whatever for Bisu. From what I have seen he's just bad at SC2 right now. The only thing he need to improve is his overall skill.
Wrong, he have TOP level multitask but the style in which Protoss is suppose to be played have hampered his ability. It is really about style or whatever for him.
No, before you will worry about style you will have to be atleast good at the game first. His multitask is great and all but the fact is it's different game. The pace is different. It's not like you can suddenly use your BW's multitask in SC2. Right now he won't do any better if he switch to terran or zerg.
You just shot yourself in your own foot by agreeing that the races are played differently.
Beside Bisu is still 50/50 with Brood War and StarCraft 2 while others are most 80% SC2 and 20% BW.
And oh in BW, Terran was the defensive race, Protoss was the aggressive one. In SC2, the whole dyanamics have shifted vice versa since Siege Tanks are nerfed to oblivion, Terran getting a shitload of harass oriented units while Protoss have lost pretty much most of their offensive aspects and Bisu took advantage of them.
As many have said in the thread, he would fare much better if he switched races because the race as a whole don't reward aggressive plays nearly as much as its older brother.
I said "the pace is different"... and my point is that he lacks the overall SC2 skill right now. Other Protosses from BW can adapt much better than him regardless of thier style. Before finding your style in the new game the first thing you need to do is to be good at it. Did you watch his games in SC2? He is not even at the stage where he have to worry about how he will use his multitasking right now.
On July 26 2012 17:05 Evangelist wrote: You know when a baby prods and pokes its environment and eventually gets hurt by poking the wrong thing?
Even Einstein and Born were babies once. Give Bisu time.
Yeah, in fact, Einstein only started talking at the age of 3, and even then he could only speak german!
Seriously though, Bisu and the other BW legends have a bright future ahead if they keep playing SC2. Having a "rough" start is to be expected of people that don't know how to play the game, they don't know what unit compositions and strategies work, even if their hands are fast as lightning. Give them time.
Seeing Bisu switch to Terran and succeeding would be better than him sticking to Protoss and failing. Plus if he gets the hang of Terran bio, and starts dropping everywhere like MMA did in his prime, Bisu could potentially be a freaking monster. He just has to play to his strengths.
On July 26 2012 09:30 Coolness53 wrote: Reality - Reality started with the Proleague Season 2 started out with a record 2-3 in the 1st round. In the 2nd round he had a better record for his Starcraft II games with a 2-1. First non-team game was in the OSL KeSPA Preliminaries was not very successful. Reality lost his very first match to StarDust 2-1. Reality didn't seem to be on anyone radar but then the magic happened. He went into the WCS where KESPA/Non-Kespa players were playing against each other. Beating Symbol 2-0 and Heart 2-1. Heart was the only person to take a game off of him during the WCS. He was the only KESPA player to make it through the preliminaries without being qualified. Reality seems like he maybe a force to reckon with. Time will only tell if he can play with the other big name Non-KESPA players.
We will see how Reality does in WCG .
Do you mean WCS, right? or will there be WCG qualifiers anytime soon?
On July 26 2012 09:30 Coolness53 wrote: Reality - Reality started with the Proleague Season 2 started out with a record 2-3 in the 1st round. In the 2nd round he had a better record for his Starcraft II games with a 2-1. First non-team game was in the OSL KeSPA Preliminaries was not very successful. Reality lost his very first match to StarDust 2-1. Reality didn't seem to be on anyone radar but then the magic happened. He went into the WCS where KESPA/Non-Kespa players were playing against each other. Beating Symbol 2-0 and Heart 2-1. Heart was the only person to take a game off of him during the WCS. He was the only KESPA player to make it through the preliminaries without being qualified. Reality seems like he maybe a force to reckon with. Time will only tell if he can play with the other big name Non-KESPA players.
We will see how Reality does in WCG .
Do you mean WCS, right? or will there be WCG qualifiers anytime soon?
thought some of the kespa players train one game only. I was actually surprised how fast some caught up, but they were already playing sc2 in their free time before. They are still far away, but that was to be expected. Just hope the kespa players don't get lazy like everyone else, so the level will make a jump after they caught up and settled into. And of course curious how many will manage the transition.
On July 25 2012 23:42 ghostnuke1234 wrote: We can only hope that Bisu "gets it" soon - it would be such a shame for a gifted player like Bisu if this is how it ends for him.
How is Bisu gifted? I thought it's about practice and passion for the game.
On July 26 2012 01:31 GinDo wrote: I think Bisu needs to switch to Terran. His strength is Multitasking, and Protoss has non of that(If you want to win the game that is). I don't know, maybe he'll pull out some crazy WP strats. But, right now, and even from the way HOTS looks like, their isn't much to Multitask as a Protoss.
This is true. Protoss multitask is mainly on the defense side (defending multi pronge attacks) and also in the mid to late game with wrap prism. And even with prisms, it is more like flying prism over and warping it zealots and maybe targeting drones or buildings. Stuff like storm drops is still rare.
Wasn't there a rumour that Bisu wanted to switch to Terran before we saw his MLG appearance?
No doubt on him being a hard worker, but make no mistake, he definitely is gifted. A athlete who rose to the top without talent and only hard work is very, very rare.
On September 30 2012 12:37 Fyodor wrote: People rationalizing why they're bad in this thread.
what are you saying, they are owning! imo the best player on the planet right now is a kespa player(rain). and a bunch qualified for code A and will start leaking into code S next season, dont be such a hater!
On July 25 2012 23:42 ghostnuke1234 wrote: We can only hope that Bisu "gets it" soon - it would be such a shame for a gifted player like Bisu if this is how it ends for him.
How is Bisu gifted? I thought it's about practice and passion for the game.
On September 30 2012 12:37 Fyodor wrote: People rationalizing why they're bad in this thread.
what are you saying, they are owning! imo the best player on the planet right now is a kespa player(rain). and a bunch qualified for code A and will start leaking into code S next season, dont be such a hater!
I think he's saying that people are rationalizing why they themselves are bad, not about the kespa players
It's hardly rationalization to say a game that requires physical action will have natural physical predisposition favouring one over another; nor is it rationalization to say a game that requires intelligence will naturally favour those who are intelligent and analytical to those who are not. Really tired of this Artosis inspired myth that practice is "all" that matters.
On September 30 2012 14:24 whatevername wrote: It's hardly rationalization to say a game that requires physical action will have natural physical predisposition favouring one over another; nor is it rationalization to say a game that requires intelligence will naturally favour those who are intelligent and analytical to those who are not. Really tired of this Artosis inspired myth that practice is "all" that matters.
What predisposition? To have a minimum of fine motor skills to activate switches on a keyboard? To have a working wrist to move a mouse? I agree with you but that's such a nitpick.
On September 30 2012 14:24 whatevername wrote: It's hardly rationalization to say a game that requires physical action will have natural physical predisposition favouring one over another; nor is it rationalization to say a game that requires intelligence will naturally favour those who are intelligent and analytical to those who are not. Really tired of this Artosis inspired myth that practice is "all" that matters.
What predisposition? To have a minimum of fine motor skills to activate switches on a keyboard? To have a working wrist to move a mouse? I agree with you but that's such a nitpick.
Or a highly advanced inner ear for coordination given your doing something competitive? It's not different than any other sport, or for that matter strategical endeavour i.e chess.
Those who believe that all these players are "extremely gifted," and that being gifted is what separates them from the rest discount the hours upon hours of work that they put in every single day of their lives, win or loss, to be the best.
Besides - how do you quantify or qualify "being gifted"?. You can't change whether you are "gifted" or not. FFS, what does "being gifted" even mean?
But you can work hard every day to become the best.
You definitely need some talent, but you're not going to get anywhere without hard work. These kespa players played bw 'day in day out' for 5+ years.
And this thread was quite silly in being 'disappointed'. How about you give these guys some time? They're only human after all and are catching up to players who had 2+ year advantage lmao!
On October 01 2012 04:22 Qwyn wrote: Those who believe that all these players are "extremely gifted," and that being gifted is what separates them from the rest discount the hours upon hours of work that they put in every single day of their lives, win or loss, to be the best.
Besides - how do you quantify or qualify "being gifted"?. You can't change whether you are "gifted" or not. FFS, what does "being gifted" even mean?
But you can work hard every day to become the best.
Not that this hasnt been discussed at all but not every kid that is taught music at a young age can compose original operas by age 5 (mozart) or have a swing like this at age 2 (tiger) - SO YES... people can be gifted, though not always the prodigy type. you get some kids who are slackers when it comes to practicing school sports, yet can still burn his peers who practice all day...
The nature vs nuture argument will probably take many more decades to solve, at which point it will be proven (as it is already suspected) that both have factors in things. I think people have gifts from birth that give them certain skills--skills which would make them better at certain things compared to others. Clearly they aren't just gifted "at starcraft", but gifted in certain abilities which would help them in starcraft or whatever sport.
gogo Stork though, he's not doing too shabby at all :D
EPT
Thanks!
. Ok High Templars and Sentries are more convenient lol.
