EPTLurker vs Swarm Host - Page 9
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jax1492
United States1632 Posts
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
As much as i love the lurker, i agree that we should get something new, something better than the swarm host tho. Especially cuz every time they demo it, theyre like HEY LOOK ITS A 'SWARMY' UNIT.... watch as it spawns A SECOND WAVE HOLY CRAAAP. It looks sooo boring -_- | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:42 0neder wrote: Except perhaps for my posts explaining abstractly why the swarm host is a mediocre unit design. People just ignore my explanations and drop in with one liners about brood war and 'OP!' or 'it would never work because [gives reason disproven by both BW and SC2].' The swarm host is a design of unit that hasn't been seen in SC yet. I'm glad they released BW ten years ago because I'm sure its forums would have been full of people like yourself and we would never have gotten to enjoy the lurker for fear of people crying about how formulaic attacking in a line is. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:44 Evangelist wrote: The swarm host is a design of unit that hasn't been seen in SC yet. I'm glad they released BW ten years ago because I'm sure its forums would have been full of people like yourself and we would never have gotten to enjoy the lurker for fear of people crying about how formulaic attacking in a line is. Sometime i wonder if BW is released today how much people will whine about it and pointing out its poor design. | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
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Nightrage
Greece212 Posts
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
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FragRaptor
United States184 Posts
And if you are to argue that it works the same way with lurkers and colossi - that is the type of unit that is supposed to be fighting with the other unit for space control. I honestly don't see a reason why we should have a redundant mid-game brood lord that can attack air... | ||
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6BiT
513 Posts
As long as Infestors and Banelings are around there is no way for the Lurker in its current form to be balanced. Blizz would have to make significant changes to the unit to fit it into the game, but with significant changes it wouldn't be a Lurker right? | ||
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FailCow
United States49 Posts
The broodlord's purpose is to give Zerg an game ending late-game. Broodlings are low hp used for DPS. Locusts are High HP units used for tanking and dps Yes they both spawn units but that doesn't make them the same or even have the same role. That would be like saying a marine is the same as a ghost because they both shoot guns. I'm excited for the Swarm Host and I hope it will be useful! | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:44 Evangelist wrote: [1]The swarm host is a design of unit that hasn't been seen in SC yet. [2]we would never have gotten to enjoy the lurker for fear of people crying about how formulaic attacking in a line is. 1 - Except we've seen videos, battle reports, and had the unit explained in precise detail by the designer. 2 - Why do you ignore my specific critique of the unit and throw out a straw man from a hypothetical parallel universe? If the new unit was a better design, I wouldn't be complaining. I only complain about bad unit design, new or old. I am a professional designer, I know how to look at things holistically. Please address my specific critiques if you can, because ignoring them isn't helping this thread. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
As for actual gameplay, I don't know yet, I've played neither SC:BW nor HotS, lol. | ||
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FailCow
United States49 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:54 0neder wrote: 1 - Except we've seen videos, battle reports, and had the unit explained in precise detail by the designer. 2 - Why do you ignore my specific critique of the unit and throw out a straw man from a hypothetical parallel universe? If the new unit was a better design, I wouldn't be complaining. I only complain about bad unit design, new or old. I am a professional designer, I know how to look at things holistically. Please address my specific critiques if you can, because ignoring them isn't helping this thread. [1] He said its design is unique to SC strategy, not that the actual unit hasn't been physically seen. Please address his specific point. It is hard to look at things holistically if you don't even read the point you are criticizing. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:53 FailCow wrote: Swarm host is designed for the Zerg to have a viable game ending mid game. The broodlord's purpose is to give Zerg an game ending late-game. Broodlings are low hp used for DPS. Locusts are High HP units used for tanking and dps You pointing out the slight differences in proxy attacks doesn't change that the unit design paradigm is fundamentally the same: a unit that deals ranged indirect damage through proxy attacks, that is virtually useless unless positioned perfectly. That describes both the Brood Lord and the Swarm Host. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
I've tried using the lurker in Starcraft 2 and it doesn't feel very useful. most units do really well against them as long as you have good unit control. Attacking lurkers from max range (assuming range 5 or+ units) makes lurkers get owned since their splash becomes useless or very weak, and their attack speed is very very slow . At about half the speed as in Brood War, it's just terrible DPS vs non-armored (5 per unit hit), and double vs armored (reasonable, but it's not likely one would hit multiple armored units without the range upgrade). With increased range it would be more useful, but still really limited, because they'd still be very poor against colossus, siege tanks and immortals, and any air units that can attack ground. having an armored unit that supposedly counters armored with radial line splash just doesn't work; most of the armored units can just outrange the lurker and/or move out of the way before it burrows and/or easily spread out, and/or deal tons of damage to the lurker, killing it quickly. As a zerg player, I'd definitely say that swarm host could be more useful than the lurker because locusts can attack air, and they offer good [mid-game] sieging/breaking potential that zergs currently lack. Lurker doesn't really deliver much on what its intended to do (just like the ultralisk, although the ultralisk at least breaks forcefields and has high defense) The lurker's main advantage/use is that it can burrow, but I don't see too much use of that. Many people here really don't seem to be looking at the full picture while fully informed, and are probably just biased towards BW nostalgia of a great unit, and/or the rather tediousness/crapiness of the baneling. I can only assume that the majority of people here may not even be zerg players and don't necessarily have the zerg's well-being in mind. Would I have lurkers instead of banelings? yeah sure. Would I want lurkers that deal primarily anti-armored damage? no— It just doesn't seem to work. Just fix the ultralisk or something. On July 12 2012 07:56 ZenithM wrote: Lurker's SC2 model looks honestly like crap. Good point. It seems like the OP maybe used a poor example picture for the lurker, since that's possibly (?) not the model currently in the game, or at least looks very different in the in-game camera angle than this side shot. Gives lurker more of an advantage in the "which looks better?" poll, when really the lurker in SC2 looks absolutely DREADFUL in-game | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On July 12 2012 04:19 Malpractice.248 wrote: tbh I'm kinda sick of the sc1 talk. bring back reaver, lurker, goliath, old hydras etc... its time to move on, try new things, swarm host isnt even out yet and everyone that I've read from mlg said its a sweet/strong unit It's because we already have a flying swarm host, and there is literally no good argument for keeping the lurker out of the game. I like the swarm host, but the lurker is a far better unit, and is something we don't already have. Space control? Check. Encourages micro? Check, on both sides! Fun to watch/play with? Check. | ||
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FragRaptor
United States184 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:43 Warpath wrote: Especially cuz every time they demo it, theyre like HEY LOOK ITS A 'SWARMY' UNIT.... watch as it spawns A SECOND WAVE HOLY CRAAAP. It looks sooo boring -_- Agreed, it isn't very esports-centric. The reason siege tanks are cool for the spectator is because shit blows up - colossi WOO LAZORS! Lurker cuts them in half in an instant!!! Swarm host... It's gonna get ya..... here comes by locusts.... Eventually....... Oh you killed my first set? I JUST SPAWNED MOAR! This time they'll get ya....... O... maybe not..... It seems like, from what you say, that they want more of the never ending zerg swarm that was from BW which was mainly there because of the pathing. I'm sure a lot of people remember how the zerglings would line up as you rally them forward making it seem like the units never stopped coming. | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:59 Skwid1g wrote: It's because we already have a flying swarm host, and there is literally no good argument for keeping the lurker out of the game. I like the swarm host, but the lurker is a far better unit, and is something we don't already have. Space control? Check. Encourages micro? Check, on both sides! Fun to watch/play with? Check. Why is it fun to watch and play with exactly? Afaik, the lurker is more or less a burrowed siege tank. From what Blizzard's releasing in their patches, it doesn't seem like they think siege tanks are a fun unit. I agree that it would be certainly a useful unit (as the tank sometimes is), but fun? Well, this thread has a point though, it's maybe more fun than the swarm host :D | ||
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FailCow
United States49 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:57 0neder wrote: You pointing out the slight differences in proxy attacks doesn't change that the unit design paradigm is fundamentally the same: a unit that deals ranged indirect damage through proxy attacks, that is virtually useless unless positioned perfectly. That describes both the Brood Lord and the Swarm Host. In game design and strategy the role and purpose of a unit is more important than how it is carried out. You are so focused on the fact that it spawns units that you completely ignore its a unit that provides a mid-game siege unit that zerg desperately needs. Your argument: Marines and Ghosts shoot. This describes both the Marine and the Ghost. | ||
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