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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
Lurker was different, it is like a spine crawler which can burrow. Similarity is still there because in SC2, the spine crawlers can move around. Basically, Blizzard are running out of ideas for good new units. It's not easy to make a good new one, and not break the balance. Lurker would have been too similar to spine crawler, and swarm host is now too similar to infestor/infested terran combo. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On July 14 2012 11:27 0neder wrote: They are completely realistic, HotS will be a brand new game anyway. Well its not a new game (unless you wanna go argueing over what "game" means) its an expansion. Now take any of blizzards previous rts expansions and pull out the most radical thing they changed. | ||
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Kajarn
United States126 Posts
On July 14 2012 13:30 Xxavi wrote: My only problem with swarm host is the fact that it spawns something very similar to infested terrans. A unit that attacks both air and ground. In the end, a burrowed infestor coming and spawning infested terrans is very similar to swarm host. Lurker was different, it is like a spine crawler which can burrow. Similarity is still there because in SC2, the spine crawlers can move around. Basically, Blizzard are running out of ideas for good new units. It's not easy to make a good new one, and not break the balance. Lurker would have been too similar to spine crawler, and swarm host is now too similar to infestor/infested terran combo. Nailed it on the head. I believe Dustin Browder and their team approached the Swarm Host from a Zerg Philosophy stand point instead of a game mechanic stand-point. They wanted a united which invoked SWARM, then decided what the best method for it is. When a unit is designed for feel or flavor first, sometimes, the game mechanic part falls short, this is the problem with the Swarm Host. I don't think its spawning mechanic will add anything new to the Zerg arsenal. It adds nothing unique, and is either a crappy Broodlord or Infestor launching rolling Infested Terrans, long range. The only place I see the Swarm Host to fit, is as a transition into the Super Army. The Style would be Ling->Infestor->5 Swarm Hosts->Broodlords. The Swarm Host paired with Infestors would have the same effect as the super army; you can't get close and your constantly getting hit. This seems like more of the same to me, its replacing the Broodlord for a small amount of time or in certain specific scenarios, maybe more. But until we fully try the unit, we have no idea. Atleast the unit isn't figured out (Lurker). There is one place for some interesting micro interations for the Swarm Host. Specifically, Swarm Host and drop, aka Reaver and drop. If Burrow is as nearly instant as it is now (WOL and not in the HOTS vids) we could be able to spawn Locuts then hop in a overlord and restart to potentially reset the time to spawn the Locuts, while also allowing for amzing harass as 10 locusts spawn in a mineral line quickly and the Hosts are already gone. If this or something similar is implemented, all I would have is props for Blizzard. (We can only dream) | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
Also it would be pretty sick if the lurker could have an actual "halt attack" function, lol. The ghost has it; it's called "Hold Fire" and "Weapons Free". Blizzard can give Hold Fire to the Lurker too (Hold Fire prevents the unit from auto attacking, then you can just press "Weapons Free" or attack something to allow the Lurker to attack again). (It's already on the Ghost if no one noticed before, heh.) (Bolded in case Blizzard doesn't know...) Nowadays I'm a bit confused at Blizzard. You know, there's actually an easy way to return the SC2 Carrier to something like the BW Carrier? (Someone should mention that to Dustin Browder and/or David Kim next time you meet either of them.) To make Interceptors mimic the BW AI (BW Carriers)- + Show Spoiler + Go to Unit Tab > Interceptors > Combat Tab > Set the "Default Acquire Level" to "Offensive" instead of None. Then click on the Carrier's Interceptor Weapon in the "Weapons" section of the map editor - Set the "Minimum Scan Range" to 16. Now Interceptors will stay out and continously attack and acquire new targets in range until you press stop (which works similar to BW). You can now attack-move with interceptors out most of the time. Yep, that's it. The carriers will function closely to BW carriers in micro potential. Now, there are other stuff that can be done too (like Interceptors healing in cargo which is possible). Point is, it's not too hard to return Carriers to more BW style. Anything is possible in the SC2 map editor (well, except maybe mimicing the exact pathing of BW mainly because it's mostly hardcoded into the game). | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On July 14 2012 13:54 Kajarn wrote: Nailed it on the head. I believe Dustin Browder and their team approached the Swarm Host from a Zerg Philosophy stand point instead of a game mechanic stand-point. They wanted a united which invoked SWARM, then decided what the best method for it is. When a unit is designed for feel or flavor first, sometimes, the game mechanic part falls short, this is the problem with the Swarm Host. I don't think its spawning mechanic will add anything new to the Zerg arsenal. It adds nothing unique, and is either a crappy Broodlord or Infestor launching rolling Infested Terrans, long range. You believe Blizzard approached the swarm host from a zerg philosophy stand point and not a game mechanic one, yet everything they have said indicates they created the swarm host as a way to allow zerg to pressure in mid-game, which I suppose is distinctly different from what you thought. I will say that the brood lord, infested terrans and swarm hosts are similar in many ways, which I don't quite like. I wouldn't mind at all if Blizzard changed the brood lord a little bit to accommodate. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On July 14 2012 11:10 Falling wrote: Lurkers and banelings might have a slight overlap, but they really don't do the same thing. Banelings are too fragile to create contains. Nor can a couple of them sit on top of a ramp and hold off masses of low tier units indefinitely. (Mind you this might not happen in SC2 anyways because of different unit pathing, changes to high ground advantage, etc.) Two semi-decent examples of lurker contains. I'm sure there are better, but these are the most recent I've seen. Warning OSL semi-final spoilers + Show Spoiler + Edit Shoot, blocked embedding. Ok starting at 22min more or less. And starting at 15min 30seconds. (contain set up by 16:30) You simply can't do the same thing with Banelings. Now I'm crossing my fingers that Swarmlords will fulfill this role, but it simply not true that Banelings do everything that Lurkers did. This was a timely self-link by Chargelot with dear old Day9's thoughts on Zerg design Specifically his thoughts on Lurkers. + Show Spoiler + Sean: The problem with me trying to envision a unit that I would remove is the fact that everything is sort of influenced by that. For instance, I don't like the Thor very much, as a unit. I don't think I have a necessarily good argument, I build a lot of them and I was like "Yeah Thors rule!" but they've always felt a little funky to me. And that's all I have to go on, and if you remove it suddenly mutalisks are ridiculously better and there are a bunch of mech strategies you can no longer do. There's all sorts of Crises that begin happening for Terran. But. Um. I like the units in StarCraft II I guess. I mean honestly, I personally think that Zerg needs a redesign. Well, maybe they don't need it, but I'd like to see a redesign, because they don't feel like Zerg, at all. They don't feel Zergy. For me, Zerg had two fundemental identities in Brood War One was space control. I could plant Lurkers here, and nothing could cross not only things that could out-range it but also detection. I had Scourge that could lock down air space, in a limited sense. I had Mutalisks that were fast, that made you feel very very very defensive. I had Overlords that once I got the speed upgrade I could cover the whole map. I could see everything you could do, and I could lock down air and ground and I could be very aggressive with harassment. So I had heavy space control. What do they do in StarCraft II? Well they make these slow mud units that though they're pretty good -- there are plenty of people who will win with roaches and baneling drops -- but my army is a blob! My army isn't supposed to be a blob! How do you control space? By having like 40 roaches. If you want to control space, you send them there! In Brood War, the second characteristic was masses of units. Masses and masses, endless streams, the Zerg Swarm! But in StarCraft II Zerg has no 1 food units, except for a drone, but that's not a real unit! I guess you have an Overseer that's a 0 food unit, but still I want Zerg to just feel way different than it does feel. That's purely from my historical perspective, not from a balance perspective. I want something that feels really really Zergy. Originally found: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=231400 This really sumarizes my thoughts on the issue. It's funny to see that Day9 echoes my thoughts with words said over a year ago(?). There is a huge lack of units that control space in this game, and that makes me sad. I just don't feel that the swarm host model, conceptually and by design, is able to fulfill this role. And then there are the other concerns. Supply cost, will be 3, not 2 (following Blizzard's retarded trend of overtallying supply), meaning that in order to get any amount to actually simulate some sort of space control at any point on the map your main army will be too small to fight head to head. The game NEEDS strong sources of AOE. And Blizzard keeps nerfing it! We have no AOE! Seriously, what do we do to fix this mess? Pros will never play custom maps, will they? Maybe if someone could grow a side community large enough, Blizzard will take notice? This really makes me fucking angry. I'm passionate for this scene and want this game to be great. I just don't feel that it's heading in the right direction. And that makes me fucking sad. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
Even if they do, we would have to wait couple of years to see any drastic changes from their part. Lol y`know what`s the funniest? The game isn't even completed yet. So this whole esport fiasco is really based on their elongation of their product expansions. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On July 14 2012 17:41 Xiphos wrote: Honestly, I strongly doubt that Blizzard actually listens to their SC2 customers. Even if they do, we would have to wait couple of years to see any drastic changes from their part. Lol y`know what`s the funniest? The game isn't even completed yet. So this whole esport fiasco is really based on their elongation of their product expansions. I guess I'll keep playing the game with the only two units that actually feel zergy, lol, the zergling and the baneling. And the muta! | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
For example, I'm fairly disappointed with WOL and the HOTS content, I still like playing the game (but that's because I'm a competitive person). I'm going to buy HOTS even if the swarm host and all the other bad things stay. Because it's a blizzard game, but that reputation isn't going to hold forever. The game is fairly boring to watch. I don't know about you guys, but I skip the first ten minutes of every zvp and I don't miss a thing. I don't even bother watch PVP games. And ZVZ can be fun to watch. ZVT has definitely taken a turn for the worse, a lot of games I watch now are basically macro for 10 minutes with the occasional (a lot actually, the sad 2 rax all-in. Or just an on the fly all-in from zerg, mass speedligns, roach/lign or banelings w/e) random all-in for either side. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
If you consider the spawn of two of them though. 16 Damage / 1,2 Speed x 2 = ~26,7 Max dmg for 15 seconds: (15s / 1.2s) x (16 dmg x 2) = 400 dmg Max dmg for 25 seconds: (25s / 1.2s) x (16 dmg x 2) = ~666,7 dmg ( 666 was that a wanted result blizz? xD ) Hydra dps is 14,5 f.ex. Only Ultra vs armored single-dps is higher but then again it´s an ae attack which multiply the dps. Also the Locust get more from upgrades because of the spawn of two of them. | ||
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Gecko4lif
United States42 Posts
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Imzoo
132 Posts
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On July 12 2012 04:03 Greggle wrote: People really think the Lurker model looks better? I always thought it looked lazy and shitty. It just looks like a blob of zergy shit. It looked much better in BW. are you serious? They havent touched the Lurker model in forever. They've made constant cosmetic changes to the Swarm Host. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On July 14 2012 00:32 Stratos_speAr wrote: No, those are just excuses you use to brush off valid arguments about SC2's shortcomings as an e-sport. It isn't a matter of "lack of imagination"; the very mechanics of units like the Colossus, Roach, Tempest, and Corruptor do not allow for micro or other dynamic gameplay. While SC2 does have some shortcomings, it is still a well-crafted, successful esports-title. While the corruptor isn't a very exciting unit, it it more often used than the BW counterpart (devourer.) The colussus itself doesn't require that much micro, but the supporting units do. The tempest has not seen professional usage yet, it is too early to tell. The roach is an interesting unit. One thing SC2 does very well is to allow a newb to see what is going on. As a rule of thumb, the larger the unit, the stronger. The bulkier the unit, the beefier. In this sense we can consider the colossus a success. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On July 14 2012 17:41 Xiphos wrote: Honestly, I strongly doubt that Blizzard actually listens to their SC2 customers. Even if they do, we would have to wait couple of years to see any drastic changes from their part. Lol y`know what`s the funniest? The game isn't even completed yet. So this whole esport fiasco is really based on their elongation of their product expansions. Do you really call SC2 an e-sports fiasco?? Blizzard does listen to customers, by the way, but they (of course) have to weight opinions. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On July 15 2012 02:11 [F_]aths wrote: Do you really call SC2 an e-sports fiasco?? Blizzard does listen to customers, by the way, but they (of course) have to weight opinions. Correction: Blizzard does listen to their WoW customers because that their source of income. See when HotS or LotV comes out, the playing field have been reset. players start all the way at square one therefore every expansions is really a bubble that Blizzard can burst at anytime. "Oh yeah you were the best player in (insert name here), too bad man." | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On July 15 2012 02:22 Xiphos wrote: Correction: Blizzard does listen to their WoW customers because that their source of income. See when HotS or LotV comes out, the playing field have been reset. players start all the way at square one therefore every expansions is really a bubble that Blizzard can burst at anytime. "Oh yeah you were the best player in (insert name here), too bad man." I don't really get what you are trying to say, nor do I think that WoW factors into SC2 as an e-sports. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
Bubbles don't certainly last this long, especially for video games where new shiny things come out every other month. If there is a bubble, it would have bursted already | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
All that aside the swarm host will probably fit better into the SCII atmosphere. Zerg lacks the ability to press and advantage cost efficently, or to apply pressure to an opponent cost efficently who is turtling. The swarm host will give zerg that along with at least some better positional control, as attacking into several well positioned swarm hosts will not be any more advisable then attacking into siege tank lines. Overall while I will miss the lurker and would rather of had it for the complexity of it vs. giant splash and color banes. Simply put the lurker will not fit into zerg play as well as the swarm host will with SCII. | ||
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