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Map Size History & Analysis - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 18:42:46
July 07 2012 18:42 GMT
#21
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 19:00:15
July 07 2012 18:48 GMT
#22
On July 08 2012 03:24 IronManSC wrote:
Mabye it's just me, but it bugs me that this is the second map analysis that contains the wrong ohana image. I don't know how or why people are still using the TLMC picture and yet clearly see that's not the correct version on ladder or in tournaments.



I am aware of this. When I first made the original thread
[G]Map Distance & Travel Time
current ladder version picture was not available for some reason, even though ladder map itself was available. Probably the other guy too.
I just checked.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Maps#1v1_2
It is now updated to correct ladder version.

It takes a lot of time to replace the image itself, so I will just include the note.
Thank you for pointing out.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 19:22:10
July 07 2012 19:07 GMT
#23
I have to ask, did you do all this manually? As in actually launch a game and count the seconds ...

For mappers, we use a tool called sc2mapanalyzer to help us create maps and size them appropriately. In particular, there is a feature that outputs rush distance for ground, air, and ground including cliff jump, for both main to main and nat to nat distances.

There is a collection of maps (needs to be updated for current season) that you can see here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272855
starleague forever
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 19:32:37
July 07 2012 19:09 GMT
#24
On July 08 2012 04:07 a176 wrote:
I have to ask, did you do all this manually? As in actually launch a game and count the seconds ...

For mappers, we use a tool called sc2mapanalyzer to help us create maps and size them appropriately. In particular, there is a feature that outputs rush distance for ground, air, and ground including cliff jump, for both main to main and nat to nat distances.

There is a collection of maps (needs to be updated for current season) that you can see here: http://a176.imgur.com/


Ya but every line with each # indicates the seconds. The map analyzer only does nat2nat and main2main. Plus the AU numbers have to be translated, and the general playerbase is not going to understand it.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 19:30:42
July 07 2012 19:30 GMT
#25
On July 08 2012 04:07 a176 wrote:
I have to ask, did you do all this manually? As in actually launch a game and count the seconds ...

For mappers, we use a tool called sc2mapanalyzer to help us create maps and size them appropriately. In particular, there is a feature that outputs rush distance for ground, air, and ground including cliff jump, for both main to main and nat to nat distances.

There is a collection of maps (needs to be updated for current season) that you can see here: http://a176.imgur.com/


Somene else told me about the program when I made original thread in March. I checked, and decided not to use.

Program someone else with decent programming knowledge made can be trusted maybe 99% of the time.
There is no way for me to independently check if just if 1 data happened to be wrong.

On the contrary, I can trust my own research 100%.
If something seems wrong, I can redo it again easily.

There is a huge difference there.
Isualin
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1903 Posts
July 07 2012 19:34 GMT
#26
nice analysis1
| INnoVation | The literal god TY | ByuNjwa | LRSL when? |
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
July 07 2012 20:03 GMT
#27
On July 08 2012 03:42 monitor wrote:
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.

If you have to force cross-spawns and losing one engagement means you have no time to reinforce before your bases are toast, maps need to get bigger.
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
July 07 2012 20:35 GMT
#28
On July 08 2012 05:03 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2012 03:42 monitor wrote:
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.

If you have to force cross-spawns and losing one engagement means you have no time to reinforce before your bases are toast, maps need to get bigger.


That is absolutely wrong in every way shape and form.
The fact that you can lose the entire game due to one bad engagement is the result of bad game design resulting from lack of meaningful high ground mechanics and a lacking of strong space control units.

If those where in place, not only would deathballs be non existent, but would give players ample defender's advantage to make sure they don't just roll over and die if a fight goes sour.

The size of some of the older and the newer maps has been ridiculous and it needs to stop growing and actually might need to shrink slightly.

Now the reason why the maps may need to shrink is simple and two bold.
Reason number one, it favors some races too much. Protoss and Zerg gain the biggest benefits from large maps, needing safety early game but having strong in build racial mechanics that partially ignore map size later on.

Terran is the worst race, having the worst re-max time and little mechanics that speed up their army. On big maps, sometimes even if a terran wins a big fight he can't close out the game because reinforcements will be ready by the time the army arrives at the base, while a zerg or protoss can finish the game since warp ins can be done to a remote location you have power too, and zergs are just super fast on creep (creep spread is becoming way better now a days).

For terrans to be able to compete on big maps they need some gimmicky features like very chokey and closed areas to abuse the power of their aoe and zone control, or they need super open spaces on huge maps so they can just abuse the immobility of their opponent (very, very rare and unlikely against smart players). This also leads to my second point why maps need to get smaller.

Games are getting more and more boring.
Seriously, in nearly every match up apart from the mirrors, you see turtling and macro nearly every single fucking game. Turtle to the 10 minute mark, the 15 minute mark or the fucking 25 minute mark. Seriously, SC 2 is becoming a turtlefest and its becoming tedious to see game after game after game follow the same pattern like this. This isn't only the result of maps and is again part because of bad game design, but some smaller or less defensive maps could go a long way to encourage more early game aggression.

I'd rather see a short but very action packed 15 minute game, where the shit hits the fan from the 5 minute mark and continues all the way to the end, then see a damn 25 minute max out on MetroPolis with a 1 minute fight followed by a GG. This doesn't mean bringing back super small and retarded map, but it does mean encouraging aggression to start early but balancing it out so that it isn't so strong that it can kill. What I'm trying to say is that, the preference of aggression to defense should be nearly 50/50, players should be equally comfortable going on the offense as they are macroing, and both options need to be nearly 50% of each other in success so that we don't get the extremely turtely games of today or the extremely cheesy games of last year.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
July 07 2012 21:01 GMT
#29
On July 08 2012 05:03 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2012 03:42 monitor wrote:
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.

If you have to force cross-spawns and losing one engagement means you have no time to reinforce before your bases are toast, maps need to get bigger.


In addition to what destruction said, you still didn't mention that the map size has almost 0 relevance to the rush distance... maps can have long rush distances even if they're small. Steppes of War is "bigger" than XelNaga Caverns and it isn't much smaller than Ohana, it is the way the maps use the space and how the rush path is laid out that determines the distance. For example, a common technique for making close positions work in BW maps was to make the pathway curve.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Serelitz
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands2895 Posts
July 08 2012 08:34 GMT
#30
Why does the Muspelheim one account for unpathable terrain but all other maps don't?
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
July 08 2012 08:42 GMT
#31
On July 08 2012 17:34 Serelitz wrote:
Why does the Muspelheim one account for unpathable terrain but all other maps don't?

Because it's easier to draw straight lines?
=Þ
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-08 08:58:35
July 08 2012 08:56 GMT
#32
Map size is bounded by imbalance caused by too close or too far. Beyond that we don't know enough. We've been comfortably within that region for a while now.

The interesting parts of the game have to do with the 4th-5th-6th base, which doesn't really depend on the basic provision of a suitable rush distance.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
DarKcS
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1237 Posts
July 08 2012 10:04 GMT
#33
I don't know about that. Everyone has Taldarim downvoted (only map with rocks at 3rd now), I keep condemned downvoted because Protoss can abuse so many ledges and the disconnected 3rd is makes voidrays really hard to defend as Zerg.
Terran timing attacks take 40 seconds to walk over the map and all it takes is 5 banelings to crush it.

It's very hard to adjust a playstyle to such a big/open map when every other map is 'just right' in it's proportions. If maps keep getting bigger than condemned it's just going to magnify other problems.
Die tomorrow - Live today
Phanekim
Profile Joined April 2003
United States777 Posts
July 09 2012 19:02 GMT
#34
what amuses me is that dustin browder wanted smaller maps thinking thats what the fans would want. i remember seeing this before beta and laughing. if it was gonna trend like bw, the bigger maps would happen.
i like cheese
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
July 11 2012 05:23 GMT
#35
Thanks for the data, it's good stuff. But when I say Condemned Ridge is fuckin HUGE I don't precisely mean the exact main2main distance, I mean the distance combined with so much dead space where flanks, surrounds, run arounds and so on could happen.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 05:56:05
July 11 2012 05:55 GMT
#36
On July 10 2012 04:02 Phanekim wrote:
what amuses me is that dustin browder wanted smaller maps thinking thats what the fans would want. i remember seeing this before beta and laughing. if it was gonna trend like bw, the bigger maps would happen.


broodwar have relatively small maps in comparison. Right now huge map, strong early defense, is making early and mid games relatively boring. I rather we get the old GSL games where there is constantly action over this slow meta we're heading toward
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 07:02:30
July 11 2012 07:01 GMT
#37
eh, I would argue that there was constant action not only because of the small map sizes but because no one knew what an end game composition should look like. See: FruitDealers foreverbanelings or Julys drone to 65 then throw units until opponent dies.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 07:33:03
July 11 2012 07:27 GMT
#38
On July 08 2012 05:35 Destructicon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2012 05:03 0neder wrote:
On July 08 2012 03:42 monitor wrote:
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.

If you have to force cross-spawns and losing one engagement means you have no time to reinforce before your bases are toast, maps need to get bigger.


That is absolutely wrong in every way shape and form.
The fact that you can lose the entire game due to one bad engagement is the result of bad game design resulting from lack of meaningful high ground mechanics and a lacking of strong space control units.

If those where in place, not only would deathballs be non existent, but would give players ample defender's advantage to make sure they don't just roll over and die if a fight goes sour.

The size of some of the older and the newer maps has been ridiculous and it needs to stop growing and actually might need to shrink slightly.

Now the reason why the maps may need to shrink is simple and two bold.
Reason number one, it favors some races too much. Protoss and Zerg gain the biggest benefits from large maps, needing safety early game but having strong in build racial mechanics that partially ignore map size later on.

Terran is the worst race, having the worst re-max time and little mechanics that speed up their army. On big maps, sometimes even if a terran wins a big fight he can't close out the game because reinforcements will be ready by the time the army arrives at the base, while a zerg or protoss can finish the game since warp ins can be done to a remote location you have power too, and zergs are just super fast on creep (creep spread is becoming way better now a days).

For terrans to be able to compete on big maps they need some gimmicky features like very chokey and closed areas to abuse the power of their aoe and zone control, or they need super open spaces on huge maps so they can just abuse the immobility of their opponent (very, very rare and unlikely against smart players). This also leads to my second point why maps need to get smaller.

Games are getting more and more boring.
Seriously, in nearly every match up apart from the mirrors, you see turtling and macro nearly every single fucking game. Turtle to the 10 minute mark, the 15 minute mark or the fucking 25 minute mark. Seriously, SC 2 is becoming a turtlefest and its becoming tedious to see game after game after game follow the same pattern like this. This isn't only the result of maps and is again part because of bad game design, but some smaller or less defensive maps could go a long way to encourage more early game aggression.

I'd rather see a short but very action packed 15 minute game, where the shit hits the fan from the 5 minute mark and continues all the way to the end, then see a damn 25 minute max out on MetroPolis with a 1 minute fight followed by a GG. This doesn't mean bringing back super small and retarded map, but it does mean encouraging aggression to start early but balancing it out so that it isn't so strong that it can kill. What I'm trying to say is that, the preference of aggression to defense should be nearly 50/50, players should be equally comfortable going on the offense as they are macroing, and both options need to be nearly 50% of each other in success so that we don't get the extremely turtely games of today or the extremely cheesy games of last year.

The fact that tanks were balanced around a map of pure cliffs and a 20 second rush distance makes me sick.
Games ARE getting more boring, and the reason for that is that DB jackhammered the BW foundation of design, built his own, and everything sucks and is way too volatile. Maps can't fix bad game design, you have to fix the game design first. If terran can't play big maps, you have a game design issue.

That's what vultures were for. Wraiths too. But DB's got the bronze leaguers in mind when he removes the hellion moving shot, removes the speed upgrade, and then questions if widow mines (which cost money compared to spider mines) should remain in the game???? So myopic and backwards. His solution is an A-move bio unit in the factory that combined a marauder with a phoenix and looks horrible, because he's still obsessed with destroying the viability of the seige tank. This doesn't bode well. He keeps adding about 5 anti-tank units per expo. By the time LotV is done, there will probably be 15 hard counters for siege tanks and they'll have to redesign the UI of the unit guide to make room for all of them.
neoghaleon55
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7435 Posts
July 24 2012 23:07 GMT
#39
close spawn antiga has shorter rush distance than steppes of war....
are you F'ing kidding?
goddamn blizzard.
moo...for DRG
Mullet_Ben
Profile Joined August 2011
United States54 Posts
July 28 2012 23:23 GMT
#40
Anyone else cringe when Day9 kept talking about how long the rush distance was on Metropolis in TSL4 today?
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