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Map Size History & Analysis

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-07 06:26:18
July 07 2012 16:09 GMT
#1
Map Size History & Analysis


Introduction
First off, name one big map on ladder.
.
.
.
Let me guess. You probably named either Tal’darim Altar or Condemned Ridge.
While Condemned Ridge is definitely a big map, it is safe to say that Tal’darim Altar is about average if not smaller than. How? Why? The answer is here. This thread is about how map size has changed since release, where we are today, and what size we should aim at in future.

Many players probably feel that average map size is getting bigger and bigger over time, yet I have not seen anyone who quantified them. Therefore, here it is. You don’t have to rely anymore on your intuition to tell if a map is relatively big or small.

Definition of Map Size
+ Show Spoiler +

Tal’darim Altar is 192*192 map tiles. Ohana is 160*184 map tiles. Therefore, Ohana is smaller. Although this statement is true, it is very boring and not so meaningful to simply compare map sizes this way. Another way that is more relevant to actual SC2 play needs to be used for comparison.

In this thread, Map Size is defined with the distance between a ramp at one main base and a ramp at another main base. Rush distance = Map size in this definition. Picture 1rax2depot wall at both Terran bases in TvT. The distance from one barracks to another barracks is the map size definition here. To be precise, middle of the ramp is used for starting and ending point, so it is slightly shorter than the rax to rax distance.

I am fully aware that other factors like how close 3rd base is, how many total bases a map has, or simply distance by air can influence how you feel about map size. However, there is no way to take everything into account at the same time and come up with organized results, so I ignored all those factors here and used only ramp-to-ramp distance for this map size discussion.


Measurement Method
+ Show Spoiler +

“Seoul, Korea is about 9500 kilometers (or 5900 miles) away from Los Angels, USA.”
“It takes 12 hours by flight from Los Angels, USA to Seoul, Korea”
Both of these sentences basically talk about the same thing, but the latter is so much more useful to know as a passenger.

“Opponent’s base is 100 map tiles away from my base.”
“It takes 30 seconds by SCV from my base to opponent’s base.”
By the same token, the latter must be the information we want to know as players.

Therefore, all distances are measured by a worker (2.81 movement speed). When a worker takes 30 seconds to travel a particular distance, the distance is defined as 30 [worker-seconds]. [worker-second] is a unit similar to [light-year] in that it is NOT the unit for time but for distance. Numbers in images are in [worker-second].
Also, allow for margin of error by 1 second as I used no program and manually sent a SCV to obtain all these numbers while looking at the timer.


Result: Map Images
Cloud Kingdom & Daybreak

[image loading]
Ohana & Antiga Shipyard

##Ohana image is different from actual ladder or tournament version. Numbers stay correct##

[image loading]
Condemned Ridge & Entombed Valley

[image loading]
Shakuras Plateau & Tal’darim Altar

[image loading]
Atlantis Spaceship & Whirlwind

[image loading]
Metropolis & Muspelheim

[image loading]
Metalopolis & Korhal Compound

[image loading]
The Shattered Temple & Xel'Naga Caverns

[image loading]
Abyssal Caverns & Nerazim Crypt

[image loading]
Backwater Gulch & Typhon Peaks

[image loading]
Slag Pits & Delta Quadrant

[image loading]
Scrap Station & Steppes of War

[image loading]
Terminus RE & Dual Site

[image loading]

Result: Tables&Graphs
+ Show Spoiler +

Close, close air, and cross position on a map each has different distance. Game play experience is also different despite the fact you are playing the same map. Therefore, each position is counted as a “separate” map. As a result, many 4-player maps count as 3 different maps while 2-player maps count as 1.

Rotationally symmetrical maps like Antiga Shipyard have 2 different game play experiences for close position: when your opponent is on your right or on your left. However, since the topic here is the map size alone, this factor is not considered. Therefore, these 4-player maps count as 2 different maps: close and cross.

Odd number ladder seasons are cut due to my time constraint and laziness.

ALL maps in same order as images
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

ALL maps from Longest to Shortest distance
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


Individual Season
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


Graph
[image loading]


Past, Current, and Future Map Size
+ Show Spoiler +

Not only do we now know that map size on average is getting bigger for sure, it is now possible to see how big or small a map is relative to other maps, and how fast average size is increasing from the graph and tables. I included both mean and median in graph so that some math major nerds can brag about his/her knowledge on statistics in posts below, but let me just use mean for discussion here and call it average.

Back in season 2 when dinosaurs were still alive and not much order was established, the average map size was 37.9[worker-seconds]. It was the time when, on some maps, an army could travel to opponent’s base as fast as Goku’s instant transmission. Many tears, especially Zerg ones, were shed on The Shattered Temple & Slag Pits close positions. Even before this, there was a notorious map called Steppes of War, where tanks could shoot from one natural to another, or so it looked at least. Blizzard was aware of the problems that small maps had, so however slow it looked to some players, Blizzard did work on it and introduced bigger maps each season and disabled some close positions.

As a result, today in season 8, it averages at 47.9 [worker-seconds], exactly 10[worker-seconds] bigger. (Remember [worker-second] is a unit for distance, NOT time.) What does it mean? It means that 2nd biggest map in season 2 = Shakuras Plateau cross position =46 is even smaller than the average we have today. It took about 1 year for maps to grow by 10. If this tendency continued, we would have 57.9 on average by season 14. Then again, today’s 2nd biggest map = Antiga Shipyard cross position =56 would be smaller than the average a year from now, just like 2nd biggest a year ago is smaller than the average today. If I simply interpret the graph, I would have to conclude this is the future because nothing indicates even slowing of the size growth.

Now, do we actually see the future with maps bigger by 10 [worker-seconds]? I am no prophet, but I seriously doubt it. Just as global population growth should stop and decline at some point, map size should shrink before it gets out of hand. I personally think now is the time. There is no imba Metalopolis close position nor shared 3rd Abbysal Caverns today. On the contrary, cross positions on Whirlwind in GSL or Condemned Ridge are already so huge that any cheese/timing push takes forever to arrive. Some might say adding 10[worker-seconds] is not much, but it actually means 12.5 more seconds for marine/sentry to travel the distance, and 15.0 more seconds for thor/HT. Even slower Broodlord or Mothership based army engagement would have to be almost all-in as there is no turning back vs any counter attack with that kind of map size.

This is just my hunch, but average would probably never go above 50, and around 44-45 would be the minimum if it turns back. The time for good old the bigger the bigger American style is over. What do you think? Should it still go bigger? Is it fine as it is? Or is it too big now? Please discuss.


Miscellaneous
+ Show Spoiler +

1. Well, I lied a bit about Tal’darim Altar in introduction to get your attention. Map tiles*map tiles-wise, it is one of the biggest for sure. What I meant was ramp-to-ramp distance-wise as I used it for all measurements in this thread. (Choke-to-choke for this particular map) While Tal’darim Altar cross position is definitely big=54, close position is relatively small in modern standard =44. Considering there is 66% chance you get close position, vetoing or not vetoing this map because of “long” rush distance is probably not right. When this map came out in season 2, even close position distance was way above average at the time. So, many of us still hold this big map image.

2. Contrary to popular belief, Metropolis is not particularly big, either. In fact, its cross position distance=44 is the shortest among all modern maps. It feels big because of vast air space, defensive choke points, easier 4th+ base map layout, or simply having smaller predecessor Metalopolis. Therefore, casters who say 2 base all-in is not recommended because of map size is simply wrong and unaware of the fact that the rush distance is relatively short. Pressuring 3rd base is far, but going straight to natural base takes much less time than other maps. This is a so-called macro map and games tend to be long, but it is not because of the distance between bases.

3. How many of you knew that smallest map today was Entombed Valley. I didn’t until I did the research. Not only is it easy to defend 3rd base as Terran/Prososs vs Zerg, distance to Zerg base is very short for non-cross positions. Explains why many Zergs veto this map.

4. Players complain why we cannot play maps used in GSL or other tournaments. This voice was bigger when tournament maps were so much bigger and looked better seasons ago. Today, ignoring all other features of the maps, 47.9[worker-seconds] on ladder is even larger than 47.6[worker-seconds] for GSL Season 3. I didn’t do thorough research on past GSL maps, but this could well be the first season where ladder maps are relatively bigger than those used in GSL at the time. Era of “we want bigger maps like GSL” is certainly over.

5. We still talk about how small Steppes of War was. It is still the smallest 2-player map to date =30[worker-seconds]. However, nothing beats close position on The Shattered Temple =23[worker-seconds]. Guess what? The Shattered Temple close position stayed on ladder for 15 months if you include The Lost Temple days. As of July 2012, this game is only 24 months old for reference. Unlike Blizzard second, Blizzard itself doesn’t work as fast T_T.

6. In the first table where all map distances are listed, it is interesting to see almost all modern maps have 2nd ramp/choke while no old map had 2nd ramp/choke. It seems Daybreak style tucked in natural used to be standard as opposed to modern Ohana style natural with ramp.

7. This is not directly related to map size discussion, but the starting point at each base in images is always southern side of CC/Hatchery/Nexus location. This is because this research was originally done for my Zerg scout timings on another thread that I linked below. Please don’t flood with posts on asymmetry of the maps. Larvae always spawn on the southern side. That’s why.


Orek's Articles/Guides
+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler [Article etc.] +

BitByBit Fan Club
A bit on BitByBit
IlIlIlIlIlIl or lIlIlIlIlIlI?
Optimal Creep Spread in Theory
Various Businesses in Starcraft 2
Balance Discussion Math(Best of N format analysis)
Underground Activities in Starcraft 2
Artosis pylon Art
Map Size History & Analysis
Larva disappearing Glitch in 1.5 (not about 20th larva)


+ Show Spoiler [Guide] +

[G] Walling Mechanics
[G] Unit/Structure Selection Priority
[G] ~8% faster gas mining
[G] ZvT Perfect Spine placement vs 2rax Bunker
[G] Zerg Sim City for Spire protection in ZvP
[G]Health Bar Color
[G]Map Distance & Travel Time

Technoverlord
Profile Joined January 2012
36 Posts
July 07 2012 16:15 GMT
#2
Very useful! Nice!
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
July 07 2012 16:17 GMT
#3
Nice work. Very interesting.
mrlie3
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada350 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 16:25:57
July 07 2012 16:24 GMT
#4
Woah! Didn't know daybreak was actually bigger than metropolis. Great article!

It would be awesome if you can correlate TvZ and TvP with map distances? Terran seems to be the one most effected by map distances due to limited production capabilities and tendency to rush units to attack. ZvP not so much I reckon since creeps and warpgate tech will counteract each other.

My guess is that Terran has an advantage at less than 30 distance, and Zerg/Toss has an advange at more than 44 distance?
Crimson @ Clan CORE | ESFI World Translator
Antimatterz
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1010 Posts
July 07 2012 16:28 GMT
#5
The only problem I see with some of your map distances is that they ignore unpathable areas when accounting for main ramp to main ramp distances. The unpathable areas are crucial to rush distances, and in some cases will drastically change the actual map size you are defining these maps by.

However if you got your data by actually sending a worker to test the times on these maps just disregard was I was saying

Anyways, this is pretty interesting to see!
"HotBid [11:45 AM]: i dunno i kinda like the big muta shooting smaller mutas out"
FloKi
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1490 Posts
July 07 2012 16:31 GMT
#6
Very interesting.
Where do whores go?
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 16:44:20
July 07 2012 16:42 GMT
#7
Very good and interesting. It'd be interesting to ask idra about map distance now, or to learn a style for each distance of map by gathering statistics

Edit:
On July 08 2012 01:28 Antimatterz wrote:
The only problem I see with some of your map distances is that they ignore unpathable areas when accounting for main ramp to main ramp distances. The unpathable areas are crucial to rush distances, and in some cases will drastically change the actual map size you are defining these maps by.

However if you got your data by actually sending a worker to test the times on these maps just disregard was I was saying

Anyways, this is pretty interesting to see!

There isn't any way he could of got his data that I know of(or that he wouldnt of explained) other than sending a worker. It's just made that way to be reasonable to read for info.
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 17:06:14
July 07 2012 16:49 GMT
#8
You present nice data, but how can you say arbitrarily that maps should get smaller? If anything, they should get bigger as we explore the metagame (given the current unfortunate state of unit pathing). I want to see a map with longer distances than terminus, to see how that affects the strength of brood lord infestor and to see more army jockeying when they're out of position. It's also better for promoting harassment.

I like racquetball, but starcraft is not nor should it be a racquetball-style claustrophobic sport. It should be an open, football/soccer type sport.

Let THIS be a blizzards map-making guide for the future: If you need to force cross positions, your map isn't good enough or big enough. Keep trying.
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
July 07 2012 17:03 GMT
#9
It's not pixels btw, it's map tiles. A map that's 192 pixels across is really small.

It's interesting that not all Blizzard maps were rush fests; some had rush distances comparable to "good" maps, although these maps had other problems with them.
=Þ
viOLetFanClub
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Korea (South)390 Posts
July 07 2012 17:08 GMT
#10
Made a reddit thread for you here: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/w6kaq/map_size_history_analysis/

Amazing stuff map, keep it up. Loved it.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
July 07 2012 17:13 GMT
#11
--- Nuked ---
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
July 07 2012 17:22 GMT
#12
On July 08 2012 01:28 Antimatterz wrote:
The only problem I see with some of your map distances is that they ignore unpathable areas when accounting for main ramp to main ramp distances. The unpathable areas are crucial to rush distances, and in some cases will drastically change the actual map size you are defining these maps by.

However if you got your data by actually sending a worker to test the times on these maps just disregard was I was saying


Anyways, this is pretty interesting to see!


Yes, I manually sent a SCV a million times while watching the timer, both ways.

On July 08 2012 02:03 Heh_ wrote:
It's not pixels btw, it's map tiles. A map that's 192 pixels across is really small.

It's interesting that not all Blizzard maps were rush fests; some had rush distances comparable to "good" maps, although these maps had other problems with them.


Thank you for pointing out. 192 pixels by 192 pixels map...imba

On July 08 2012 02:08 viOLetFanClub wrote:
Made a reddit thread for you here: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/w6kaq/map_size_history_analysis/

Amazing stuff map, keep it up. Loved it.


Contents are not reddit ready. I should have added more drama. Thank you anyways ^^.
Archybaldie
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom818 Posts
July 07 2012 17:24 GMT
#13
This its really intresting information.

I always thought a better sized and layout of scrap station would be a pretty good map.
I'm in the bubblewrap league ... i just keep getting popped
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 17:27:10
July 07 2012 17:26 GMT
#14
Mispost
Thylacine
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden882 Posts
July 07 2012 17:28 GMT
#15
Perfect anylisis.
What you're looking at could be the end of a particularly terrifying nightmare. It isn't. It's the beginning. Introducing Mr. John Valentine, air traveler. His destination: the Twilight Zone...
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
July 07 2012 17:44 GMT
#16
On July 08 2012 01:49 0neder wrote:
You present nice data, but how can you say arbitrarily that maps should get smaller? If anything, they should get bigger as we explore the metagame (given the current unfortunate state of unit pathing). I want to see a map with longer distances than terminus, to see how that affects the strength of brood lord infestor and to see more army jockeying when they're out of position. It's also better for promoting harassment.

I like racquetball, but starcraft is not nor should it be a racquetball-style claustrophobic sport. It should be an open, football/soccer type sport.

Let THIS be a blizzards map-making guide for the future: If you need to force cross positions, your map isn't good enough or big enough. Keep trying.


Imo we explored the max amount of rush distances with maps like Daybreak and area-wise maps like Tal'Darim or Whirlwind are pretty excessive, too. There isn't much of a need to go beyond this right now. Enough other areas to be creative.

If you make a 4p rotational and force cross position it's absolutely -pointless- and you should make a 2p map instead.
If you make a 4p mirrored and remove one spawn possibility it better be something groundbreaking cos SC2 had too many of these. Basically what you get is always the same, lots of easy expansions and very uninspired later expansions (because they are just the main/nat of the empty close position), just for the possibility of spawning cross or air close. Boring!
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
neoghaleon55
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7435 Posts
July 07 2012 18:17 GMT
#17
shattered temple, steppes of war and delta quadrant are such terrible maps...now we have empirical evidence, thanks for this.
moo...for DRG
DarkInfinity
Profile Joined July 2011
121 Posts
July 07 2012 18:19 GMT
#18
This is good work, thanks, and I personally think that ground distance will peak very soon, but I could easily see it slowly creep toward higher numbers over time, something I wouldn't mind at all.
And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 18:29:12
July 07 2012 18:24 GMT
#19
Mabye it's just me, but it bugs me that this is the second map analysis that contains the wrong ohana image. I don't know how or why people are still using the TLMC picture and yet clearly see that's not the correct version on ladder or in tournaments.

SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
July 07 2012 18:39 GMT
#20
Great effort and really nice/useful information. Thanks for doing this!
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 18:42:46
July 07 2012 18:42 GMT
#21
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 19:00:15
July 07 2012 18:48 GMT
#22
On July 08 2012 03:24 IronManSC wrote:
Mabye it's just me, but it bugs me that this is the second map analysis that contains the wrong ohana image. I don't know how or why people are still using the TLMC picture and yet clearly see that's not the correct version on ladder or in tournaments.



I am aware of this. When I first made the original thread
[G]Map Distance & Travel Time
current ladder version picture was not available for some reason, even though ladder map itself was available. Probably the other guy too.
I just checked.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Maps#1v1_2
It is now updated to correct ladder version.

It takes a lot of time to replace the image itself, so I will just include the note.
Thank you for pointing out.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 19:22:10
July 07 2012 19:07 GMT
#23
I have to ask, did you do all this manually? As in actually launch a game and count the seconds ...

For mappers, we use a tool called sc2mapanalyzer to help us create maps and size them appropriately. In particular, there is a feature that outputs rush distance for ground, air, and ground including cliff jump, for both main to main and nat to nat distances.

There is a collection of maps (needs to be updated for current season) that you can see here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272855
starleague forever
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 19:32:37
July 07 2012 19:09 GMT
#24
On July 08 2012 04:07 a176 wrote:
I have to ask, did you do all this manually? As in actually launch a game and count the seconds ...

For mappers, we use a tool called sc2mapanalyzer to help us create maps and size them appropriately. In particular, there is a feature that outputs rush distance for ground, air, and ground including cliff jump, for both main to main and nat to nat distances.

There is a collection of maps (needs to be updated for current season) that you can see here: http://a176.imgur.com/


Ya but every line with each # indicates the seconds. The map analyzer only does nat2nat and main2main. Plus the AU numbers have to be translated, and the general playerbase is not going to understand it.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 19:30:42
July 07 2012 19:30 GMT
#25
On July 08 2012 04:07 a176 wrote:
I have to ask, did you do all this manually? As in actually launch a game and count the seconds ...

For mappers, we use a tool called sc2mapanalyzer to help us create maps and size them appropriately. In particular, there is a feature that outputs rush distance for ground, air, and ground including cliff jump, for both main to main and nat to nat distances.

There is a collection of maps (needs to be updated for current season) that you can see here: http://a176.imgur.com/


Somene else told me about the program when I made original thread in March. I checked, and decided not to use.

Program someone else with decent programming knowledge made can be trusted maybe 99% of the time.
There is no way for me to independently check if just if 1 data happened to be wrong.

On the contrary, I can trust my own research 100%.
If something seems wrong, I can redo it again easily.

There is a huge difference there.
Isualin
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1903 Posts
July 07 2012 19:34 GMT
#26
nice analysis1
| INnoVation | The literal god TY | ByuNjwa | LRSL when? |
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
July 07 2012 20:03 GMT
#27
On July 08 2012 03:42 monitor wrote:
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.

If you have to force cross-spawns and losing one engagement means you have no time to reinforce before your bases are toast, maps need to get bigger.
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
July 07 2012 20:35 GMT
#28
On July 08 2012 05:03 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2012 03:42 monitor wrote:
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.

If you have to force cross-spawns and losing one engagement means you have no time to reinforce before your bases are toast, maps need to get bigger.


That is absolutely wrong in every way shape and form.
The fact that you can lose the entire game due to one bad engagement is the result of bad game design resulting from lack of meaningful high ground mechanics and a lacking of strong space control units.

If those where in place, not only would deathballs be non existent, but would give players ample defender's advantage to make sure they don't just roll over and die if a fight goes sour.

The size of some of the older and the newer maps has been ridiculous and it needs to stop growing and actually might need to shrink slightly.

Now the reason why the maps may need to shrink is simple and two bold.
Reason number one, it favors some races too much. Protoss and Zerg gain the biggest benefits from large maps, needing safety early game but having strong in build racial mechanics that partially ignore map size later on.

Terran is the worst race, having the worst re-max time and little mechanics that speed up their army. On big maps, sometimes even if a terran wins a big fight he can't close out the game because reinforcements will be ready by the time the army arrives at the base, while a zerg or protoss can finish the game since warp ins can be done to a remote location you have power too, and zergs are just super fast on creep (creep spread is becoming way better now a days).

For terrans to be able to compete on big maps they need some gimmicky features like very chokey and closed areas to abuse the power of their aoe and zone control, or they need super open spaces on huge maps so they can just abuse the immobility of their opponent (very, very rare and unlikely against smart players). This also leads to my second point why maps need to get smaller.

Games are getting more and more boring.
Seriously, in nearly every match up apart from the mirrors, you see turtling and macro nearly every single fucking game. Turtle to the 10 minute mark, the 15 minute mark or the fucking 25 minute mark. Seriously, SC 2 is becoming a turtlefest and its becoming tedious to see game after game after game follow the same pattern like this. This isn't only the result of maps and is again part because of bad game design, but some smaller or less defensive maps could go a long way to encourage more early game aggression.

I'd rather see a short but very action packed 15 minute game, where the shit hits the fan from the 5 minute mark and continues all the way to the end, then see a damn 25 minute max out on MetroPolis with a 1 minute fight followed by a GG. This doesn't mean bringing back super small and retarded map, but it does mean encouraging aggression to start early but balancing it out so that it isn't so strong that it can kill. What I'm trying to say is that, the preference of aggression to defense should be nearly 50/50, players should be equally comfortable going on the offense as they are macroing, and both options need to be nearly 50% of each other in success so that we don't get the extremely turtely games of today or the extremely cheesy games of last year.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
July 07 2012 21:01 GMT
#29
On July 08 2012 05:03 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2012 03:42 monitor wrote:
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.

If you have to force cross-spawns and losing one engagement means you have no time to reinforce before your bases are toast, maps need to get bigger.


In addition to what destruction said, you still didn't mention that the map size has almost 0 relevance to the rush distance... maps can have long rush distances even if they're small. Steppes of War is "bigger" than XelNaga Caverns and it isn't much smaller than Ohana, it is the way the maps use the space and how the rush path is laid out that determines the distance. For example, a common technique for making close positions work in BW maps was to make the pathway curve.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Serelitz
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands2895 Posts
July 08 2012 08:34 GMT
#30
Why does the Muspelheim one account for unpathable terrain but all other maps don't?
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
July 08 2012 08:42 GMT
#31
On July 08 2012 17:34 Serelitz wrote:
Why does the Muspelheim one account for unpathable terrain but all other maps don't?

Because it's easier to draw straight lines?
=Þ
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-08 08:58:35
July 08 2012 08:56 GMT
#32
Map size is bounded by imbalance caused by too close or too far. Beyond that we don't know enough. We've been comfortably within that region for a while now.

The interesting parts of the game have to do with the 4th-5th-6th base, which doesn't really depend on the basic provision of a suitable rush distance.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
DarKcS
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1237 Posts
July 08 2012 10:04 GMT
#33
I don't know about that. Everyone has Taldarim downvoted (only map with rocks at 3rd now), I keep condemned downvoted because Protoss can abuse so many ledges and the disconnected 3rd is makes voidrays really hard to defend as Zerg.
Terran timing attacks take 40 seconds to walk over the map and all it takes is 5 banelings to crush it.

It's very hard to adjust a playstyle to such a big/open map when every other map is 'just right' in it's proportions. If maps keep getting bigger than condemned it's just going to magnify other problems.
Die tomorrow - Live today
Phanekim
Profile Joined April 2003
United States777 Posts
July 09 2012 19:02 GMT
#34
what amuses me is that dustin browder wanted smaller maps thinking thats what the fans would want. i remember seeing this before beta and laughing. if it was gonna trend like bw, the bigger maps would happen.
i like cheese
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
July 11 2012 05:23 GMT
#35
Thanks for the data, it's good stuff. But when I say Condemned Ridge is fuckin HUGE I don't precisely mean the exact main2main distance, I mean the distance combined with so much dead space where flanks, surrounds, run arounds and so on could happen.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 05:56:05
July 11 2012 05:55 GMT
#36
On July 10 2012 04:02 Phanekim wrote:
what amuses me is that dustin browder wanted smaller maps thinking thats what the fans would want. i remember seeing this before beta and laughing. if it was gonna trend like bw, the bigger maps would happen.


broodwar have relatively small maps in comparison. Right now huge map, strong early defense, is making early and mid games relatively boring. I rather we get the old GSL games where there is constantly action over this slow meta we're heading toward
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 07:02:30
July 11 2012 07:01 GMT
#37
eh, I would argue that there was constant action not only because of the small map sizes but because no one knew what an end game composition should look like. See: FruitDealers foreverbanelings or Julys drone to 65 then throw units until opponent dies.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 07:33:03
July 11 2012 07:27 GMT
#38
On July 08 2012 05:35 Destructicon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2012 05:03 0neder wrote:
On July 08 2012 03:42 monitor wrote:
Glad to see somebody doing a writeup on this. You've got the right idea. Maps DON'T need to be larger. They need to use space more efficiently. Also btw you're using the wrong measurements for how large the map is. Taldarim isn't 192x192, its 172x172 (playable bounds is the meaningful number, the total bounds include a border which doesn't affect the map size).

[edit] Actually maybe taldarim is 178x178, I can't remember and can't check right now.

If you have to force cross-spawns and losing one engagement means you have no time to reinforce before your bases are toast, maps need to get bigger.


That is absolutely wrong in every way shape and form.
The fact that you can lose the entire game due to one bad engagement is the result of bad game design resulting from lack of meaningful high ground mechanics and a lacking of strong space control units.

If those where in place, not only would deathballs be non existent, but would give players ample defender's advantage to make sure they don't just roll over and die if a fight goes sour.

The size of some of the older and the newer maps has been ridiculous and it needs to stop growing and actually might need to shrink slightly.

Now the reason why the maps may need to shrink is simple and two bold.
Reason number one, it favors some races too much. Protoss and Zerg gain the biggest benefits from large maps, needing safety early game but having strong in build racial mechanics that partially ignore map size later on.

Terran is the worst race, having the worst re-max time and little mechanics that speed up their army. On big maps, sometimes even if a terran wins a big fight he can't close out the game because reinforcements will be ready by the time the army arrives at the base, while a zerg or protoss can finish the game since warp ins can be done to a remote location you have power too, and zergs are just super fast on creep (creep spread is becoming way better now a days).

For terrans to be able to compete on big maps they need some gimmicky features like very chokey and closed areas to abuse the power of their aoe and zone control, or they need super open spaces on huge maps so they can just abuse the immobility of their opponent (very, very rare and unlikely against smart players). This also leads to my second point why maps need to get smaller.

Games are getting more and more boring.
Seriously, in nearly every match up apart from the mirrors, you see turtling and macro nearly every single fucking game. Turtle to the 10 minute mark, the 15 minute mark or the fucking 25 minute mark. Seriously, SC 2 is becoming a turtlefest and its becoming tedious to see game after game after game follow the same pattern like this. This isn't only the result of maps and is again part because of bad game design, but some smaller or less defensive maps could go a long way to encourage more early game aggression.

I'd rather see a short but very action packed 15 minute game, where the shit hits the fan from the 5 minute mark and continues all the way to the end, then see a damn 25 minute max out on MetroPolis with a 1 minute fight followed by a GG. This doesn't mean bringing back super small and retarded map, but it does mean encouraging aggression to start early but balancing it out so that it isn't so strong that it can kill. What I'm trying to say is that, the preference of aggression to defense should be nearly 50/50, players should be equally comfortable going on the offense as they are macroing, and both options need to be nearly 50% of each other in success so that we don't get the extremely turtely games of today or the extremely cheesy games of last year.

The fact that tanks were balanced around a map of pure cliffs and a 20 second rush distance makes me sick.
Games ARE getting more boring, and the reason for that is that DB jackhammered the BW foundation of design, built his own, and everything sucks and is way too volatile. Maps can't fix bad game design, you have to fix the game design first. If terran can't play big maps, you have a game design issue.

That's what vultures were for. Wraiths too. But DB's got the bronze leaguers in mind when he removes the hellion moving shot, removes the speed upgrade, and then questions if widow mines (which cost money compared to spider mines) should remain in the game???? So myopic and backwards. His solution is an A-move bio unit in the factory that combined a marauder with a phoenix and looks horrible, because he's still obsessed with destroying the viability of the seige tank. This doesn't bode well. He keeps adding about 5 anti-tank units per expo. By the time LotV is done, there will probably be 15 hard counters for siege tanks and they'll have to redesign the UI of the unit guide to make room for all of them.
neoghaleon55
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7435 Posts
July 24 2012 23:07 GMT
#39
close spawn antiga has shorter rush distance than steppes of war....
are you F'ing kidding?
goddamn blizzard.
moo...for DRG
Mullet_Ben
Profile Joined August 2011
United States54 Posts
July 28 2012 23:23 GMT
#40
Anyone else cringe when Day9 kept talking about how long the rush distance was on Metropolis in TSL4 today?
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
December 15 2012 07:51 GMT
#41
Do you have plans to update this page with more GSL maps?
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
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