On June 30 2012 09:36 Cuce wrote: forcefield lets toss micro. I dont mean you hit f and click a bunch of times. it lets toss to micro agains double speed roaches lings mm balls. and it gives a reason for roach/ling/mm to micro againts toss.
I completely disagree with your statement here. I don't know how it could be more contrary to reality.
Forcefield doesn't 'let' toss micro. Forcefield makes it so Toss doesn't really have to micro. Also it DOES mean you hit f and click a bunch of times, because the spell is such a commodity. Maybe if it were larger and cost more it wouldn't be so game-breaking. Toss can micro against those things on their own, and removing or altering forcefield would greatly promote that.
yes, forcefield is a little bit of a silly spell, but try making gateway units usable versus anything without them.
As soon as a Terran has stim there is no way to beat it without great forcefields or much higher tech (collo/storm)
stalker/zealot vs roach/ling is SO cost inefficient for the protoss unless they already have a large unit advantage (where you would expect the army to win anyway)
hence, forcefields are needed for protoss to be able to survive against a large number of timings, timings that even with forcefield can still do massive damage to an early-mid game protoss.
That's an interesting point.
SC1 got away with this based on a combination of factors:
1: SC1 Marines have a range upgrade, from 4 to 5. Dragoons out-range them without this upgrade. So the Terran has to research this in addition to Stim. They're both researched at the same building, thus slowing down the push.
2: Dragoons have their own range upgrade, thus maintaining their range advantage.
3: Shield Batteries can be quickly summoned to help in micro.
4: Marine production is limited by the number of Barrackses in play.
5: The instant a Reaver hits the field, Marines die.
A lot of these are small things that are nevertheless important. Items 1-4 are all about allowing the Protoss to survive until item 5 hits, at which point the Terran loses if he hasn't already switched over to Mech.
Really though, I think #1 and #4 are probably the biggest. In SC2, a Terran can build two Barracks: one with a Tech Lab and one with a Reactor. They can research Stim while double-pumping Marines. So they can build more Marines faster than SC1 (MULEs also help in this regard). Coupled with the fact that they only need one upgrade instead of two, this means that they get Stimmed, 5-range Marines that much sooner. And more of them.
It's probably that early-game production speed that makes it almost impossible for Protoss to hold without FFing the ramp. Indeed, FF may have been introduced into the game as a specific reaction to early-game Reactor builds. One wonders if Guardian Shield (which was added to the game a year and a half after FF) alone might not have been enough. Or, to put it another way, maybe GS could be buffed to be enough to help the Protoss hold if FF didn't exist.
But for whatever reason, it's clear that the SC2 Protoss are designed to need FF to survive.
M&M was actually pretty good vs pure gateway units, it's just that Protosses could blindly open Dts or Reavers. Stim in BW did 50% more increase in fire rate, and Marines took 4 shots from a goon to get killed. Medics would heal pretty quickly too, and goons are relatively slow with their fire rate. The thing about M&M/tank is that it is extremely mid-game focused. There is almost no transition, and you have to do damage/win the game with the timing attack before templar/reaver tech.
Flash and forgg disagrees with you biomech in TvP is still an unexplored territory in broodwar and to see it being pulled off makes it a wonderful experience to watch it work . Although when it horribly fails it will make the terran player seem a little dumb for not playing standard .
FORGG v Goojila(Forgg MnM eats dt and reaver for breakfast)
Flash v Horang 2 (bio mech push)
If UpMagic was still playing, then who knows? Bio might have become more popular today. I saw a couple of high level amateurs play some TvP, Hiya did some rax timings vs Anytime as well...
I think the HSM is a lot like Spawn Broodling on BW queens right now. The energy cost is quite steep, and you have a unit that can readily counter it that is being made anyways (Science Vessel/High Templar). You end up saving all those energy on those queens, and *boom* EMP shockwave... you might as well have made mutas or mass hydras.
Also range 6 for a spell is really small. Not to mention, to get the most out of this spell, you want to target the center of a mass of units.... That's just my 2 cents.
B.) Units needing more clicking does not counteract their bad design. The Reaver is overpowered--but since it's hard to click things in the game, it's "balanced." But realistically, it's an artificial balance. The unit itself is not balanced. If the reaver was put into SC2 people would want it ripped immediately. A colosus that has no easy counter that deals triple the damage? Awful design. Why is it okay? Because it's hard to click things in BW. Because you had to fight the UI in BW. If it was the Collosi instead of the reaver in BW no one would complain about imba collosi. Because the two games are fundamentally different from each other.
I am rather confused on this point. How are things harder to click on in BW? Clicking didn't change. But moving shot is not artificial balance nor is something that is hard to use artificial balance. That's actually part of the balance process. If there was a button for auto split marines versus banelings, or a button for auto kite with marines and marauders, you can guarantee m&m would be nerfed to hell. No overkill on tanks= tanks have less damage. Smart casting = storms and emp's are a shadow of their BW counterparts.
Providing opportunities for the faster players to excel is a very good thing. It provides true 'wow' moments when a pro-player picks apart a base with a shuttle-reaver combo when a lowly D- would get only get a couple shots and then have to run away.
pretty sure I just gg instantly if my whole army gets stormed before or during engagemen
Relatively speaking they do sufficient damage. But in absolute terms SC2 spells aren't as impressive. It's been awhile since I looked at the numbers, but a good example is storming (unmicroed) muta or workers. BW, I think you're left with 8 health and 2 storms will clean out a worker line. SC2 mutas still have 1/3 health and it takes 3-4 storms to kill a worker line.
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
Storms end games, lol. A lot of pros won't even turn their attention from their army when its out on the map late game PvT because of how quickly one cloaked EMP/Snipe/Feedback spam/Storm can snap the game into a complete loss.
And they are still called 'pros' after that? Doubt it.
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
what? if you eat storms in sc2 its actually worse than bw because of unit clumping.
Nope in BW, you don't have that unlimited Units Selection therefore you have to individually drag one group of units out of the Storm radius whereas in SC2, you can drag the entire army out of it.
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
I'm confused. Your content agrees with me, but your tone disagrees with me.
The unit design is not the issue, it's (as you say) "player skill" that is the issue. Adding a lurker into SC2 will not change the way the units are controlled. Adding Arbiters will not provide you the same dragoon/bunker dynamic that made early game PvT interesting to watch. Heck, adding Dragoons would not give you the Dragoon/Bunker dynamic. (Autorepair means you literally just set and forget unlike in BW where you had to send just enough scvs to repair the bunker just slowly enough that they don't fully heal the bunker and stop the repairing)
Trying to add BW units does not change anything because the design of the BW units was not what made the gameplay dynamics.
Adding a lurker will most certainly force the Terran to pay more attention to their army. Once stepped on those babies, your whole army is gone in a blink of an eye. This ELEVATES the level of play.
and lol what? You are confusing everyone with you argument of Arbiter plays with Early Game since you won't get it until perhaps the 10 minutes mark.
B.) Units needing more clicking does not counteract their bad design. The Reaver is overpowered--but since it's hard to click things in the game, it's "balanced." But realistically, it's an artificial balance. The unit itself is not balanced. If the reaver was put into SC2 people would want it ripped immediately. A colosus that has no easy counter that deals triple the damage? Awful design. Why is it okay? Because it's hard to click things in BW. Because you had to fight the UI in BW. If it was the Collosi instead of the reaver in BW no one would complain about imba collosi. Because the two games are fundamentally different from each other.
I am rather confused on this point. How are things harder to click on in BW? Clicking didn't change. But moving shot is not artificial balance nor is something that is hard to use artificial balance. That's actually part of the balance process. If there was a button for auto split marines versus banelings, or a button for auto kite with marines and marauders, you can guarantee m&m would be nerfed to hell. No overkill on tanks= tanks have less damage. Smart casting = storms and emp's are a shadow of their BW counterparts.
Providing opportunities for the faster players to excel is a very good thing. It provides true 'wow' moments when a pro-player picks apart a base with a shuttle-reaver combo when a lowly D- would get only get a couple shots and then have to run away.
pretty sure I just gg instantly if my whole army gets stormed before or during engagemen
Relatively speaking they do sufficient damage. But in absolute terms SC2 spells aren't as impressive. It's been awhile since I looked at the numbers, but a good example is storming (unmicroed) muta or workers. BW, I think you're left with 8 health and 2 storms will clean out a worker line. SC2 mutas still have 1/3 health and it takes 3-4 storms to kill a worker line.
but there is no point of speaking about relatives. bw units don't clump (you might hit 4 units with storm in bw), getting storm off isn't that easy, and terran doesn't have siege tanks or spider mines that can obliterate protoss that does not engage correctly.
If you eat a full storm as terran in sc2, and you didn't do dmg, that's it. He is going to a-move rest of his army into your base and there is no tank fire or spider mines to slow them down, you're going to die.
B.) Units needing more clicking does not counteract their bad design. The Reaver is overpowered--but since it's hard to click things in the game, it's "balanced." But realistically, it's an artificial balance. The unit itself is not balanced. If the reaver was put into SC2 people would want it ripped immediately. A colosus that has no easy counter that deals triple the damage? Awful design. Why is it okay? Because it's hard to click things in BW. Because you had to fight the UI in BW. If it was the Collosi instead of the reaver in BW no one would complain about imba collosi. Because the two games are fundamentally different from each other.
I am rather confused on this point. How are things harder to click on in BW? Clicking didn't change. But moving shot is not artificial balance nor is something that is hard to use artificial balance. That's actually part of the balance process. If there was a button for auto split marines versus banelings, or a button for auto kite with marines and marauders, you can guarantee m&m would be nerfed to hell. No overkill on tanks= tanks have less damage. Smart casting = storms and emp's are a shadow of their BW counterparts.
Providing opportunities for the faster players to excel is a very good thing. It provides true 'wow' moments when a pro-player picks apart a base with a shuttle-reaver combo when a lowly D- would get only get a couple shots and then have to run away.
pretty sure I just gg instantly if my whole army gets stormed before or during engagemen
Relatively speaking they do sufficient damage. But in absolute terms SC2 spells aren't as impressive. It's been awhile since I looked at the numbers, but a good example is storming (unmicroed) muta or workers. BW, I think you're left with 8 health and 2 storms will clean out a worker line. SC2 mutas still have 1/3 health and it takes 3-4 storms to kill a worker line.
but there is no point of speaking about relatives. bw units don't clump, getting storm off isn't that easy, and terran doesn't have siege tanks or spider mines that can obliterate protoss that does not engage correctly.
If you eat a full storm as terran, and you didn't do dmg before hand, that's it. He is going to a-move rest of his army into your base and there is no tank fire or spider mines to slow them down, you're going to die
Looks like someone isn't familiar with the way how BW units interacts with each other. In SC2, the unit pathing is very clean and crisp. So when you move couple of units to a specific location, they don't exactly collides with each other and glitch. In BW, once you command a few units to a certain placement, the AI bugs out and units will attempt to collides with each other. And that's when genuine clumping happens especially with mass Hydralisks groups. So that put emphasis on individual unit micro.
B.) Units needing more clicking does not counteract their bad design. The Reaver is overpowered--but since it's hard to click things in the game, it's "balanced." But realistically, it's an artificial balance. The unit itself is not balanced. If the reaver was put into SC2 people would want it ripped immediately. A colosus that has no easy counter that deals triple the damage? Awful design. Why is it okay? Because it's hard to click things in BW. Because you had to fight the UI in BW. If it was the Collosi instead of the reaver in BW no one would complain about imba collosi. Because the two games are fundamentally different from each other.
I am rather confused on this point. How are things harder to click on in BW? Clicking didn't change. But moving shot is not artificial balance nor is something that is hard to use artificial balance. That's actually part of the balance process. If there was a button for auto split marines versus banelings, or a button for auto kite with marines and marauders, you can guarantee m&m would be nerfed to hell. No overkill on tanks= tanks have less damage. Smart casting = storms and emp's are a shadow of their BW counterparts.
Providing opportunities for the faster players to excel is a very good thing. It provides true 'wow' moments when a pro-player picks apart a base with a shuttle-reaver combo when a lowly D- would get only get a couple shots and then have to run away.
pretty sure I just gg instantly if my whole army gets stormed before or during engagemen
Relatively speaking they do sufficient damage. But in absolute terms SC2 spells aren't as impressive. It's been awhile since I looked at the numbers, but a good example is storming (unmicroed) muta or workers. BW, I think you're left with 8 health and 2 storms will clean out a worker line. SC2 mutas still have 1/3 health and it takes 3-4 storms to kill a worker line.
but there is no point of speaking about relatives. bw units don't clump, getting storm off isn't that easy, and terran doesn't have siege tanks or spider mines that can obliterate protoss that does not engage correctly.
If you eat a full storm as terran, and you didn't do dmg before hand, that's it. He is going to a-move rest of his army into your base and there is no tank fire or spider mines to slow them down, you're going to die
Looks like someone isn't familiar with the way how BW units interacts with each other. In SC2, the unit pathing is very clean and crisp. So when you move couple of units to a specific location, they don't exactly collides with each other and glitch. In BW, once you command a few units to a certain placement, the AI bugs out and units will attempt to collides with each other. And that's when genuine clumping happens especially with mass Hydralisks groups. So that put emphasis on individual unit micro.
I know broodwar units get stuck alot, especially dragoons, but that doesn't change a thing to what I said. Those "clumping" problems are annoying but my points still stands as they are outliers and rarely do you get a massive storms that hit a ton of units outside of workers
B.) Units needing more clicking does not counteract their bad design. The Reaver is overpowered--but since it's hard to click things in the game, it's "balanced." But realistically, it's an artificial balance. The unit itself is not balanced. If the reaver was put into SC2 people would want it ripped immediately. A colosus that has no easy counter that deals triple the damage? Awful design. Why is it okay? Because it's hard to click things in BW. Because you had to fight the UI in BW. If it was the Collosi instead of the reaver in BW no one would complain about imba collosi. Because the two games are fundamentally different from each other.
I am rather confused on this point. How are things harder to click on in BW? Clicking didn't change. But moving shot is not artificial balance nor is something that is hard to use artificial balance. That's actually part of the balance process. If there was a button for auto split marines versus banelings, or a button for auto kite with marines and marauders, you can guarantee m&m would be nerfed to hell. No overkill on tanks= tanks have less damage. Smart casting = storms and emp's are a shadow of their BW counterparts.
Providing opportunities for the faster players to excel is a very good thing. It provides true 'wow' moments when a pro-player picks apart a base with a shuttle-reaver combo when a lowly D- would get only get a couple shots and then have to run away.
pretty sure I just gg instantly if my whole army gets stormed before or during engagemen
Relatively speaking they do sufficient damage. But in absolute terms SC2 spells aren't as impressive. It's been awhile since I looked at the numbers, but a good example is storming (unmicroed) muta or workers. BW, I think you're left with 8 health and 2 storms will clean out a worker line. SC2 mutas still have 1/3 health and it takes 3-4 storms to kill a worker line.
but there is no point of speaking about relatives. bw units don't clump (you might hit 4 units with storm in bw), getting storm off isn't that easy, and terran doesn't have siege tanks or spider mines that can obliterate protoss that does not engage correctly.
If you eat a full storm as terran in sc2, and you didn't do dmg, that's it. He is going to a-move rest of his army into your base and there is no tank fire or spider mines to slow them down, you're going to die.
bw units do clump especially when you leave them alone in a control group and in some cases they will form some kind of a ball although this can be remedied quickly by clicking to your right or left which the units will split from the ball formation and form little spacing between the units . It's the same thing in brood war when your units are in clump formation and there are storms being casted all on top of your siege tanks you can say good bye to them as seen in the game of jangbi v nada .
B.) Units needing more clicking does not counteract their bad design. The Reaver is overpowered--but since it's hard to click things in the game, it's "balanced." But realistically, it's an artificial balance. The unit itself is not balanced. If the reaver was put into SC2 people would want it ripped immediately. A colosus that has no easy counter that deals triple the damage? Awful design. Why is it okay? Because it's hard to click things in BW. Because you had to fight the UI in BW. If it was the Collosi instead of the reaver in BW no one would complain about imba collosi. Because the two games are fundamentally different from each other.
I am rather confused on this point. How are things harder to click on in BW? Clicking didn't change. But moving shot is not artificial balance nor is something that is hard to use artificial balance. That's actually part of the balance process. If there was a button for auto split marines versus banelings, or a button for auto kite with marines and marauders, you can guarantee m&m would be nerfed to hell. No overkill on tanks= tanks have less damage. Smart casting = storms and emp's are a shadow of their BW counterparts.
Providing opportunities for the faster players to excel is a very good thing. It provides true 'wow' moments when a pro-player picks apart a base with a shuttle-reaver combo when a lowly D- would get only get a couple shots and then have to run away.
pretty sure I just gg instantly if my whole army gets stormed before or during engagemen
Relatively speaking they do sufficient damage. But in absolute terms SC2 spells aren't as impressive. It's been awhile since I looked at the numbers, but a good example is storming (unmicroed) muta or workers. BW, I think you're left with 8 health and 2 storms will clean out a worker line. SC2 mutas still have 1/3 health and it takes 3-4 storms to kill a worker line.
but there is no point of speaking about relatives. bw units don't clump (you might hit 4 units with storm in bw), getting storm off isn't that easy, and terran doesn't have siege tanks or spider mines that can obliterate protoss that does not engage correctly.
If you eat a full storm as terran in sc2, and you didn't do dmg, that's it. He is going to a-move rest of his army into your base and there is no tank fire or spider mines to slow them down, you're going to die.
bw units do clump especially when you leave them alone in a control group and in some cases they will form some kind of a ball although this can be remedied quickly by clicking to your right or left which the units will split from the ball formation and form little spacing between the units . It's the same thing in brood war when your units are in clump formation and there are storms being casted all on top of your siege tanks you can say good bye to them as seen in the game of jangbi v nada .
yes, lots of storm, but most storms still only hit 4 units. I am not saying broodwar units don't clump, but they are nowhere near the level of sc2
it is quite possible to catch your entire army with just 2 storms in sc2. I would argue storm is much more dangerous in sc2 not only due to unit clumping, but you don't have any zone controls (tanks or spider mines) to slow down protoss if you do get in a bad situation
you get bad stormed in sc2? you're dead. Part of it could also due to mech being terrible against protoss and bio just clump up even tighter
B.) Units needing more clicking does not counteract their bad design. The Reaver is overpowered--but since it's hard to click things in the game, it's "balanced." But realistically, it's an artificial balance. The unit itself is not balanced. If the reaver was put into SC2 people would want it ripped immediately. A colosus that has no easy counter that deals triple the damage? Awful design. Why is it okay? Because it's hard to click things in BW. Because you had to fight the UI in BW. If it was the Collosi instead of the reaver in BW no one would complain about imba collosi. Because the two games are fundamentally different from each other.
I am rather confused on this point. How are things harder to click on in BW? Clicking didn't change. But moving shot is not artificial balance nor is something that is hard to use artificial balance. That's actually part of the balance process. If there was a button for auto split marines versus banelings, or a button for auto kite with marines and marauders, you can guarantee m&m would be nerfed to hell. No overkill on tanks= tanks have less damage. Smart casting = storms and emp's are a shadow of their BW counterparts.
Providing opportunities for the faster players to excel is a very good thing. It provides true 'wow' moments when a pro-player picks apart a base with a shuttle-reaver combo when a lowly D- would get only get a couple shots and then have to run away.
pretty sure I just gg instantly if my whole army gets stormed before or during engagemen
Relatively speaking they do sufficient damage. But in absolute terms SC2 spells aren't as impressive. It's been awhile since I looked at the numbers, but a good example is storming (unmicroed) muta or workers. BW, I think you're left with 8 health and 2 storms will clean out a worker line. SC2 mutas still have 1/3 health and it takes 3-4 storms to kill a worker line.
but there is no point of speaking about relatives. bw units don't clump (you might hit 4 units with storm in bw), getting storm off isn't that easy, and terran doesn't have siege tanks or spider mines that can obliterate protoss that does not engage correctly.
If you eat a full storm as terran in sc2, and you didn't do dmg, that's it. He is going to a-move rest of his army into your base and there is no tank fire or spider mines to slow them down, you're going to die.
bw units do clump especially when you leave them alone in a control group and in some cases they will form some kind of a ball although this can be remedied quickly by clicking to your right or left which the units will split from the ball formation and form little spacing between the units . It's the same thing in brood war when your units are in clump formation and there are storms being casted all on top of your siege tanks you can say good bye to them as seen in the game of jangbi v nada .
yes, lots of storm, but most storms still only hit 4 units. I am not saying broodwar units don't clump, but they are nowhere near the level of sc2
it is quite possible to catch your entire army with just 2 storms in sc2. I would argue storm is much more dangerous in sc2 not only due to unit clumping, but you don't have any zone controls (tanks or spider mines) to slow down protoss if you do get in a bad situation
you get bad stormed in sc2? you're dead
Protoss players in broodwar having bad storms versus a zerg he is also considered dead man on a limited time . Well it's true that storms are much more effective in sc2 because of smart casting compared to bw where you have manually press T and mouse over to your target to unleash the spell . Which explains why it is more dangerous against *bio units in sc2 .
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
Storms end games, lol. A lot of pros won't even turn their attention from their army when its out on the map late game PvT because of how quickly one cloaked EMP/Snipe/Feedback spam/Storm can snap the game into a complete loss.
And they are still called 'pros' after that? Doubt it.
Yeah. I'm not sure we're watching the same game. At least, I'm not sure you are.
Brood war storms hit 8 of my hydralisks or more. How is that 4 units? Not to mention you've got to dodge them pre-emptively because if you let them hit, that's 8 dead hydralisks there. (Talking about large army battles, if you only have 8, you can still save them from the storms).
Brood war storms their dps is a lot higher, 1 storm actually kills all your drones.
Wow, these last few pages have been facepalm worthy at times. I mean if people see stuff like mbs, smart ai, everything on one hotkey as good things, it just shows how far apart we are.
If all you want to do is control one thing all game and hit spells, you might as well play a moba. Because that is essentially every engagement in Sctoo, deathball vs deathball. Whoever hits the right spells in a 5 second period wins the battle and ultimately the game.
Me? I don't want to see every new game become homogenized, just so it can appeal to casuals, who whine and complain about a difficult ui, just so they get shiny easy to use one. Pretty soon we'll all only be playing the same game, just with a different title.
That isn't where we're headed, it's where we're right now. It's too difficult - just remove it, it's op - nerf the hell out if it so no one uses it any more.
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
Storms end games, lol. A lot of pros won't even turn their attention from their army when its out on the map late game PvT because of how quickly one cloaked EMP/Snipe/Feedback spam/Storm can snap the game into a complete loss.
And they are still called 'pros' after that? Doubt it.
Yeah. I'm not sure we're watching the same game. At least, I'm not sure you are.
On July 01 2012 01:02 1A1A1A wrote: Wow, these last few pages have been facepalm worthy at times. I mean if people see stuff like mbs, smart ai, everything on one hotkey as good things, it just shows how far apart we are.
If all you want to do is control one thing all game and hit spells, you might as well play a moba. Because that is essentially every engagement in Sctoo, deathball vs deathball. Whoever hits the right spells in a 5 second period wins the battle and ultimately the game.
Me? I don't want to see every new game become homogenized, just so it can appeal to casuals, who whine and complain about a difficult ui, just so they get shiny easy to use one. Pretty soon we'll all only be playing the same game, just with a different title.
That isn't where we're headed, it's where we're right now. It's too difficult - just remove it, it's op - nerf the hell out if it so no one uses it any more.
If it's what people want then let them have it.
The potential to put all units on one hotkey does not mean that you should put all units on one hotkey.
The potential to cast all spells through one control group does not predicate that one should.
BW and SC2 have different UI. Some people like SC2 UI, some people like Broodwar UI. One is not better than the other because both are very very different from each other. BW UI was not the hardest UI of its time and in fact it was an easier UI than the games previous to it. Now roles have reversed and it is now considered the harder UI while newer games have the easier UI.
The difficulty of the UI is arbitrary and people liking one over the other is also arbitrary.
The UI of BW allowed for BW units to be "balanced" because the units were harder to use. If those units were ported to SC2 people would hate them (apart from nostalgia). Because once the BW units are put in an a more streamlined UI, it becomes apparent that they are badly designed units that are a bit overpowered.
There is a reason smartshot siege tanks take up more supply, cost more, and have less damage (even before the damage nerf) Because BW siege tanks would be broken in SC2.
The games are different.
Now, you enjoying the BW UI is a personal preference much like me liking a BLT sandwhich is a personal preference. It isn't better or worse than the SC2 UI.
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
what? if you eat storms in sc2 its actually worse than bw because of unit clumping.
False it actually hurts more in bw for example templars storming your scv while you are away macroing your factory and returning to your natural to find it empty . Curse the gods !
oh okay losing 100 food in army < 20 food in scvs.. i can't really agree with you on that haha
Flash and forgg disagrees with you biomech in TvP is still an unexplored territory in broodwar and to see it being pulled off makes it a wonderful experience to watch it work . Although when it horribly fails it will make the terran player seem a little dumb for not playing standard .
While those are interesting games, let's face facts here: Horang2 is playing Flash, who has been known to kill people with his brain.
Also, while it is "unexplored," it's not like people haven't been trying to make Bio work vs. Protoss since forever. I'm sure many Terrans have taken practice time out to see if they can finagle a way to make it work. The fact that it's been 12 years and the most you can point to is a couple of games suggests that it's probably not going to happen. At best, it'll be some interesting non-standard play to keep the opponent Protoss's from getting comfortable.
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
I'm confused as well. You can find many threads complaining about how it just takes one storm or one emp to completely change the game.
Stop complaining, play better than the opponent. Progaming wouldn't exist if the game is TOO easy.
He's not complaining. He's pointing out that in SC2, a single well-placed Storm or EMP can still change the game. He's saying that you do have to be alert all the time, just like SC1.
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
I'm confused. Your content agrees with me, but your tone disagrees with me.
The unit design is not the issue, it's (as you say) "player skill" that is the issue. Adding a lurker into SC2 will not change the way the units are controlled. Adding Arbiters will not provide you the same dragoon/bunker dynamic that made early game PvT interesting to watch. Heck, adding Dragoons would not give you the Dragoon/Bunker dynamic. (Autorepair means you literally just set and forget unlike in BW where you had to send just enough scvs to repair the bunker just slowly enough that they don't fully heal the bunker and stop the repairing)
Trying to add BW units does not change anything because the design of the BW units was not what made the gameplay dynamics.
Adding a lurker will most certainly force the Terran to pay more attention to their army. Once stepped on those babies, your whole army is gone in a blink of an eye. This ELEVATES the level of play.
And so do burrowed Banelings. So do burrowed Infestors. The point he's making is that we already have that elevation of play, that need to pay attention to the army. It just doesn't use Lurkers specifically.
On June 30 2012 12:47 Xiphos wrote: ^no its player's skill issue.
In BW, you kind of have to be alert at all time.
In SC2, Stormed my whole army? Not as big impact.
Storms end games, lol. A lot of pros won't even turn their attention from their army when its out on the map late game PvT because of how quickly one cloaked EMP/Snipe/Feedback spam/Storm can snap the game into a complete loss.
And they are still called 'pros' after that? Doubt it.
Yeah. I'm not sure we're watching the same game. At least, I'm not sure you are.
You just don't get it do you? lol
I'm sorry? You've made multiple, incorrect statements. I don't care whether you doubt they're pro-gamers.
What bothers me with Starcraft 2 is that it's usual that player just grabs your army, hotkeys it to 1, moves it towards enemy and collects victory.
Unlike in Brood War it wasn't possible to just grab all your stuff and move to the enemy, which I think made BW much more exciting.
By no means I am suggesting to return to the 12 unit control groups. However I would like to see that all races can't just storm in and win, but they have to organize their units before engagements and the result of the battle would be decided more with good positioning and army control, rather than just sheer power of army.
I dont understand why people are so focused on the AI pathing. I don't believe that is a problem at all. watch a pro terran play first person, they will hotkey a single number to 15 barracks. "pro macro" has come down to pressing one hotkey and spamming the unit hotkeys you want. you dont even have to look away from your army or change screens. zerg do the same with hatches or sometimes they just hotkey the larva. protoss at least have to look at a pylon to macro, but usually the pylon is right in the battle so it's an instant army bulk up. and warpgates have a hoykey built right into the game.
as i said earlier i hate smart casting. Bowder always talks about unit clumping as to why sc2 spells are weaker, that is so not the issue man. I want someone to just once bring up smart casting to him.
those are my beefs with sc2, I still pay to watch gsl but i dont find the games as interesting. All the obersver options are cool thought...
EPT
