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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
This thread makes me sick.
I can understand years ago, when the community was smaller, this being some of the only means to discuss and smoke out potential hackers.
However, our community is much larger now, and there is much more at stake when random people make these kind of claims. This thread literally does nothing positive, save maybe create a little extra web traffic for TL or something.
If you want to arbitrarily and publicly analyze a persons games based on a nameless source, at least keep the thread closed. If you really feel it vital for some reason to keep it open, you should be handing out temp bans to all of these people (including players, ect) who have chimed in with nothing constructive other than "I've had feelings about things in the past" or "I think yes/no, with no explanation as to my thought process" Why should CatZ or incontrol jump in a thread, say some random shit that accomplishes nothing, other than to prematurely influence others opinions on a matter still being considered? Even if this extremely shitty type of arbitrary analysis is used, why do we think it's ok to start the judgment train before said shitty process has even concluded?
I get that a lot of players and frequenters of this site are kids, and that kids are immature and don't think before they speak/post. What I can't get is is lack of mature moderation on an obviously sensitive topic. I can understand it in the past, but to me it should be pretty unacceptable at this point, unless you are purposely drawing attention to it, which still isn't ok.
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On June 05 2012 11:24 ackbar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:16 Dox wrote:On June 05 2012 11:12 EtherealDeath wrote:My small contribution of data after reviewing his replay pack. Note I did this ONLY on on 4 player maps. I.E. not Shakuras, as that's 3 player. Scouting Orientation9 Counterclockwise 5 Clockwise Attempt on which the opponent was found7 First try 4 Second try 3 Last try Replays which were used: + Show Spoiler +
Entombed Valley (60)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds Zeus second
Tal'Darim LE (72)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds mewbert last
Antiga Shipyard (99)
Scouts clockwise, finds MGdropin first
Tal'Darim LE (71)
Scouts clockwise, finds BrokenAxle first
Tal'Darim LE (70)
Scouts clockwise, finds KaBaM first (the probe movement did somewhat suggest this though)
Antiga Shipyard (98)
Scouts clockwise, finds Mass second
Tal'Darim LE (69)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds spencer first
Antiga (97)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (96)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Antiga (95)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (94)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Tal'Darim (68)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Entombed (59)
Scouts clockwise, finds first
Antiga (93)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Overall, it's too small a sample size to come to any conclusions. After all even just changing scouting direction in 2 games would make the data seem perfectly incognito. So, a larger sample size on 4 player maps would be needed to come to make any inferences in this regard. However it is not blatantly skewed towards always getting it right, so I do not think this data is indicative of Spades hacking. At the same time, since it's clear that he doesn't scout in the same direction every game, I think if I were able to get a much larger sample size of Spades' 4 player games, and if the data there were about as expected from more or less random scouting, it could be a useful point in Spades' defense. Not to sound rude, but why on earth do you think this qualifies as definitive data either way? You should be watching army movements, build decisions and keep an eye out for camera lock / minimap scan habits. Do you even know what you're looking for? In theory, you would be under 50% likelihood of finding the opponent on the first scout, right? So if you are finding the opponent on first scout in the majority of games, it might suggest that you know where he is. But yeah, the sample size is way too small and this evidence is certainly very far from conclusive. But the idea of using actual data rather than speculation to determine if someone is hacking is certainly appealing.
Yep, exactly what I said, need more data. That's why I'd be more interested in just having data from more than 2 player maps, preferably 4 player maps. I like evidence from gameplay and all, but I'm just more comfortable if there's a data point in support of all that evidence which does not require subjective evaluation to get at.
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On June 05 2012 11:20 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:16 Dox wrote:On June 05 2012 11:12 EtherealDeath wrote:My small contribution of data after reviewing his replay pack. Note I did this ONLY on on 4 player maps. I.E. not Shakuras, as that's 3 player. Scouting Orientation9 Counterclockwise 5 Clockwise Attempt on which the opponent was found7 First try 4 Second try 3 Last try Replays which were used: + Show Spoiler +
Entombed Valley (60)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds Zeus second
Tal'Darim LE (72)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds mewbert last
Antiga Shipyard (99)
Scouts clockwise, finds MGdropin first
Tal'Darim LE (71)
Scouts clockwise, finds BrokenAxle first
Tal'Darim LE (70)
Scouts clockwise, finds KaBaM first (the probe movement did somewhat suggest this though)
Antiga Shipyard (98)
Scouts clockwise, finds Mass second
Tal'Darim LE (69)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds spencer first
Antiga (97)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (96)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Antiga (95)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (94)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Tal'Darim (68)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Entombed (59)
Scouts clockwise, finds first
Antiga (93)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Overall, it's too small a sample size to come to any conclusions. After all even just changing scouting direction in 2 games would make the data seem perfectly incognito. So, a larger sample size on 4 player maps would be needed to come to make any inferences in this regard. However it is not blatantly skewed towards always getting it right, so I do not think this data is indicative of Spades hacking. At the same time, since it's clear that he doesn't scout in the same direction every game, I think if I were able to get a much larger sample size of Spades' 4 player games, and if the data there were about as expected from more or less random scouting, it could be a useful point in Spades' defense. Not to sound rude, but why on earth do you think this qualifies as definitive data either way? You should be watching army movements, build decisions and keep an eye out for camera lock / minimap scan habits. Do you even know what you're looking for? I said it is too small to come to any conclusions. At the same time I said that since he clearly doesn't have a set scouting direction, if we can get more replays on 4 player maps it might be possible to see if any biases exist with regards to when he finds the opponent. This is completely independent of whatever we get from build decisions. If someone maphacks, you'd expect a bias. Not finding the bias does not mean innocence, but seeing a strong bias would be a basis for even more suspicion. This is meant as an independent data point aside from the build decisions. But as I said, that will require getting more replays than we have, because the current sample size is too small.
His point is that if you were map hacking, there is no incentive for you to scout and find the person first at all because you already have vision of their base. In order to throw off suspicion you would scout in a random direction every single game, so your data is useless.
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You guys are so easily trolled / persuaded. The fact that the OP HAD to create a new name (and probably proxied his IP) to post a wall of text should have signaled any doubt of credibility.
He is more likely someone who got owned by said pro gamer.
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I watched the reps, I'm not sure if Spades hacked or not. Some stuff looked questionable, but I am not sure. I'll wait for more evidence and pro opinion to judge.
I'm more concerned with the smurf op and his accusations. If a person wants to post accusations like this, they better put their name to it. The fact that a person can sit behind a smurf like a pussy and spout shit is ridiculous. TL I implore you to out this op by checking his ip.
This person probably just ruined Spade's career. If a person whats to make unproven accusations, they should be forced to not smurf. This sets a terrible precedent and could lead to people posting false hacking accusations just to tarnish reputations and ruin careers with no risk or punishment.
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On June 05 2012 10:54 elliminist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts. He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Should the case be found innocent, I think the TL Mods should bring out into the open the TRUE identity of the individual attempting to destroy a Pro's career and oust him from the community.
Maybe this witchhunt policy is the reason things like this get out of hand in the first place. Guy has a perfect right to post his suspicions on stuff like this, even if he is wrong. Communities fault they all read the thread title, grabbed their pitchforks and headed off to Spades house.
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This thread has degenerated into nothing more than idiots getting up on a pedestal in a dire attempt to sound smart or pretend they know what's going on. As usual it seems.
OP, start a new thread and label it with "Idiots need not apply". Thank you.
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This is a shameful thread to TL and should be closed, I don't understand why it was reopened in the first place even after the mods explanation. This isn't /r and I just have a really hard time believing this should be allowed under _ANY_ circumstances regarding a pro player, let alone when an OP is started by a smurf account.
I got your back Spades, your innocent until proven guilty with some indisputable evidence in my book.
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On June 05 2012 11:23 ZweiGaming wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:54 elliminist wrote:On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts. He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Should the case be found innocent, I think the TL Mods should bring out into the open the TRUE identity of the individual attempting to destroy a Pro's career and oust him from the community. Wether or not Spades is hacking, the facts that the OP pointed are really suspicious. A 50+ pages thread and still noone can say exactly if it's hack or not. The OP sure did his research and had the right to bring this matter to the public view because Spades actions ARE suspicious...
CatZ and illusion streaming this atm, multiple solid proofs already shown, camera constantly freezes on the edge of fog of war to not show you are looking into their base etc. 100% hack
OP is obviously his teammate or a friend so totally understandable to use fake account.
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Seeing Illusion's stream for 3 minutes was one of the most saddening experience i have ever had in TL, Catz and Illusion are trying so hard to push forward the most spurious arguments to prove that Spades is hacking is not even funny. I love the fact that both making mistaking (advancing in range of tanks he should think are sieged because he saw some medivacs) and making normal moves (scanning in front of your army just before moving is called "a perfect scanning".... yeah, certainly, because if you don't scan in TvT, you walk on sieged tanks...) are used to prove he hacks. Both of them should just ladder more for MLG, instead of streaming these kind of petty vendettas.
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On June 05 2012 11:28 Nick_54 wrote:
I watched the reps, I'm not sure if Spades hacked or not. Some stuff looked questionable, but I am not sure. I'll wait for more evidence and pro opinion to judge.
I'm more concerned with the smurf op and his accusations. If a person wants to post accusations like this, they better put their name to it. The fact that a person can sit behind a smurf like a pussy and spout shit is ridiculous. TL I implore you to out this op by checking his ip.
This person probably just ruined Spade's career. If a person whats to make unproven accusations, they should be forced to not smurf. This sets a terrible precedent and could lead to people posting false hacking accusations just to tarnish reputations and ruin careers with no risk or punishment.
TL Please do this he does not deserve to make these kind of claims that can destroy someones career anonymously.
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While I don't mind the thread being closed, it should be possible/easy for those with replays/analysis that could help to work together/spread such information. Take an example from the 2+2 poker community, these kinds of collaborative efforts actually can root out cheaters/hackers. If this thread is closed, such efforts would be diminished.
What isn't helpful is someone posting just their opinion, or people posting about how horrible witchhunts are. Stick to analysis and discussion of said analysis, not discussion-of-the-discussion and this kind of thread could actually be a boon to the community (like such investigations are to the poker community).
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On June 05 2012 11:27 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:20 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 05 2012 11:16 Dox wrote:On June 05 2012 11:12 EtherealDeath wrote:My small contribution of data after reviewing his replay pack. Note I did this ONLY on on 4 player maps. I.E. not Shakuras, as that's 3 player. Scouting Orientation9 Counterclockwise 5 Clockwise Attempt on which the opponent was found7 First try 4 Second try 3 Last try Replays which were used: + Show Spoiler +
Entombed Valley (60)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds Zeus second
Tal'Darim LE (72)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds mewbert last
Antiga Shipyard (99)
Scouts clockwise, finds MGdropin first
Tal'Darim LE (71)
Scouts clockwise, finds BrokenAxle first
Tal'Darim LE (70)
Scouts clockwise, finds KaBaM first (the probe movement did somewhat suggest this though)
Antiga Shipyard (98)
Scouts clockwise, finds Mass second
Tal'Darim LE (69)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds spencer first
Antiga (97)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (96)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Antiga (95)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (94)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Tal'Darim (68)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Entombed (59)
Scouts clockwise, finds first
Antiga (93)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Overall, it's too small a sample size to come to any conclusions. After all even just changing scouting direction in 2 games would make the data seem perfectly incognito. So, a larger sample size on 4 player maps would be needed to come to make any inferences in this regard. However it is not blatantly skewed towards always getting it right, so I do not think this data is indicative of Spades hacking. At the same time, since it's clear that he doesn't scout in the same direction every game, I think if I were able to get a much larger sample size of Spades' 4 player games, and if the data there were about as expected from more or less random scouting, it could be a useful point in Spades' defense. Not to sound rude, but why on earth do you think this qualifies as definitive data either way? You should be watching army movements, build decisions and keep an eye out for camera lock / minimap scan habits. Do you even know what you're looking for? I said it is too small to come to any conclusions. At the same time I said that since he clearly doesn't have a set scouting direction, if we can get more replays on 4 player maps it might be possible to see if any biases exist with regards to when he finds the opponent. This is completely independent of whatever we get from build decisions. If someone maphacks, you'd expect a bias. Not finding the bias does not mean innocence, but seeing a strong bias would be a basis for even more suspicion. This is meant as an independent data point aside from the build decisions. But as I said, that will require getting more replays than we have, because the current sample size is too small. His point is that if you were map hacking, there is no incentive for you to scout and find the person first at all because you already have vision of their base. In order to throw off suspicion you would scout in a random direction every single game, so your data is useless.
True, but if he had planned every out to begin with and executed it perfectly, he'd never be caught. You never know what might slip through. Note I am not saying he 100% hacks, I have not reviewed the evidence enough to come to any conclusions on my own. I'm just saying that I wouldn't assume that a guy has possible holes covered without checking them first.
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On June 05 2012 11:29 legaton wrote:
Seeing Illusion's stream for 3 minutes was one of the most saddening experience i have ever had in TL, Catz and Illusion are trying so hard to push forward the most spurious arguments to prove that Spades is hacking is not even funny. I love the fact that both making mistaking (advancing in range of tanks he should think are sieged because he saw some medivacs) and making normal moves (scanning in front of your army just before moving is called "a perfect scanning".... yeah, certainly, because if you don't scan in TvT, you walk on sieged tanks...) are used to prove he hacks. Both of them should just ladder more for MLG, instead of streaming these kind of petty vendettas.
yeah. catz is embarrassing himself right now, illusion too.
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this is a joke
great job tlreddit
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On June 05 2012 11:30 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:28 Nick_54 wrote:
I watched the reps, I'm not sure if Spades hacked or not. Some stuff looked questionable, but I am not sure. I'll wait for more evidence and pro opinion to judge.
I'm more concerned with the smurf op and his accusations. If a person wants to post accusations like this, they better put their name to it. The fact that a person can sit behind a smurf like a pussy and spout shit is ridiculous. TL I implore you to out this op by checking his ip.
This person probably just ruined Spade's career. If a person whats to make unproven accusations, they should be forced to not smurf. This sets a terrible precedent and could lead to people posting false hacking accusations just to tarnish reputations and ruin careers with no risk or punishment. TL Please do this he does not deserve to make these kind of claims that can destroy someones career anonymously.
Wouldn't be surprised if he used a proxy to hide his actual IP.
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On June 05 2012 11:29 FinBenton wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:23 ZweiGaming wrote:On June 05 2012 10:54 elliminist wrote:On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts. He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Should the case be found innocent, I think the TL Mods should bring out into the open the TRUE identity of the individual attempting to destroy a Pro's career and oust him from the community. Wether or not Spades is hacking, the facts that the OP pointed are really suspicious. A 50+ pages thread and still noone can say exactly if it's hack or not. The OP sure did his research and had the right to bring this matter to the public view because Spades actions ARE suspicious... CatZ and illusion streaming this atm, multiple solid proofs already shown, camera constantly freezes on the edge of fog of war to not show you are looking into their base etc. 100% hack OP is obviously his teammate or a friend so totally understandable to use fake account.
If theres anything I've learned from observing people, the moment they state a statistic, they're generally totally full of shit. Does it offend you, that you're most likely completely full of shit?
Well, to counter your evidence, I AM 10000% certain it wasn't a hack. See my % is bigger than yours, I have more proof...
I am watching illusion/catz, both biased and both have some disliking for spades it would seem... Maybe before you place all your certainty behind these two guys, you should read the thread with pros/people of note's opinions.. They drastically side with spades.
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On June 05 2012 11:30 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:28 Nick_54 wrote:
I watched the reps, I'm not sure if Spades hacked or not. Some stuff looked questionable, but I am not sure. I'll wait for more evidence and pro opinion to judge.
I'm more concerned with the smurf op and his accusations. If a person wants to post accusations like this, they better put their name to it. The fact that a person can sit behind a smurf like a pussy and spout shit is ridiculous. TL I implore you to out this op by checking his ip.
This person probably just ruined Spade's career. If a person whats to make unproven accusations, they should be forced to not smurf. This sets a terrible precedent and could lead to people posting false hacking accusations just to tarnish reputations and ruin careers with no risk or punishment. TL Please do this he does not deserve to make these kind of claims that can destroy someones career anonymously.
Doesn't matter what his post history is, only matters whether his points are valid. If he's just trying to ruin Spades and is full of shit people can look through his points and see that they're bullshit or not enough evidence. If what he says is true, same thing. It's not like hes quoting some anonymous source that says Spades hacks or anything, all of his points are clearly spelled out and his 'evidence' is there for anyone to look through.
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On June 05 2012 11:24 ackbar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:16 Dox wrote:On June 05 2012 11:12 EtherealDeath wrote:My small contribution of data after reviewing his replay pack. Note I did this ONLY on on 4 player maps. I.E. not Shakuras, as that's 3 player. Scouting Orientation9 Counterclockwise 5 Clockwise Attempt on which the opponent was found7 First try 4 Second try 3 Last try Replays which were used: + Show Spoiler +
Entombed Valley (60)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds Zeus second
Tal'Darim LE (72)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds mewbert last
Antiga Shipyard (99)
Scouts clockwise, finds MGdropin first
Tal'Darim LE (71)
Scouts clockwise, finds BrokenAxle first
Tal'Darim LE (70)
Scouts clockwise, finds KaBaM first (the probe movement did somewhat suggest this though)
Antiga Shipyard (98)
Scouts clockwise, finds Mass second
Tal'Darim LE (69)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds spencer first
Antiga (97)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (96)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Antiga (95)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (94)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Tal'Darim (68)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Entombed (59)
Scouts clockwise, finds first
Antiga (93)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Overall, it's too small a sample size to come to any conclusions. After all even just changing scouting direction in 2 games would make the data seem perfectly incognito. So, a larger sample size on 4 player maps would be needed to come to make any inferences in this regard. However it is not blatantly skewed towards always getting it right, so I do not think this data is indicative of Spades hacking. At the same time, since it's clear that he doesn't scout in the same direction every game, I think if I were able to get a much larger sample size of Spades' 4 player games, and if the data there were about as expected from more or less random scouting, it could be a useful point in Spades' defense. Not to sound rude, but why on earth do you think this qualifies as definitive data either way? You should be watching army movements, build decisions and keep an eye out for camera lock / minimap scan habits. Do you even know what you're looking for? In theory, you would be under 50% likelihood of finding the opponent on the first scout, right? So if you are finding the opponent on first scout in the majority of games, it might suggest that you know where he is. But yeah, the sample size is way too small and this evidence is certainly very far from conclusive. But the idea of using actual data rather than speculation to determine if someone is hacking is certainly appealing.
We run a pretty tight-knit community in the SEA scene and we've outed a LOT of maphackers throughout BW/WC3/SC2 and more often than not, they'll always use the same mindless adjacent scouting patterns because there's absolutely no value in "always scouting the right place first" to them. I mean really. Think about it.
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EPT
