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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 10:50 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:39 crazystupid0 wrote:On June 05 2012 10:30 Neeblet wrote:Ladder games are worthless because there is nothing on the line so he obviously wouldn't maphack there. We need to find some recent online tournaments with spades in it and check out those reps. Homestory cup qualifiers, happened a week or so ago. http://drop.sc/185969 There was nothing suspicious in that game at all. Looked pretty legit to me. Though, I haven't watched the replays from the OP.
Nothing at all suspicious about this game.
This coward OP should be outed by mods who can do an IP check for his main account. He deliberately created the illusion of evidence simply by posting a lot of text when in fact it was PURELY circumstantial and HEAVILY exaggerated. Some of his claims are outright false, including the claim that "His camera NEVER watches a place he hasn't got vision of..." This is a lie, plain and simple.
No one should be able to act as a judge and jury without being accountable, therefore this OP needs to be outed. Please second this and explain your reasoning if you agree.
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On June 05 2012 11:12 pigmanbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:10 elliminist wrote:On June 05 2012 11:04 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:On June 05 2012 11:02 Rowrin wrote:On June 05 2012 11:00 pigmanbear wrote:On June 05 2012 10:55 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On June 05 2012 09:57 crazystupid0 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Flonomenalz wrote:
hmmmm idk.
I'm not nearly high level enough to think my opinion on the replays matter, but the one part where he selects an scv WHILE looking at fog... I have no fucking clue how you can possibly do that without hacking unless SC2 is glitched.
I hope he isn't hacking again though, I like spades... If it was a idle scv you can select it with F1 and move it around clicking on the mini map. I do it all the time. You don't have to look at a scv to move it around. Except the F1 button immediately jumps your screen to the idle scv if the scv is not on your screen, so if the camera lock did not have the scv on screen (which I presume it did not, as people would not suspect him of maphacking by giving orders to an on-screen unit), then that points to hacking.. No it doesn't ...you'd have to hit the key twice. you are confusing hotkeys with f1, you press the f1 key once it will select the first idle scv it finds and centers the screen. It doesnt for me... When's the last time you've played sc2? I just tested this ingame and I think you don't actually play this game. No, it's just that us confused ones never have an idle worker after the initial rally ^^
If you don't know don't post. I find it offensive that you think you know better than a well known SEA caster such as Dox on the matter.
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On June 05 2012 11:08 TechNoTrance wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:54 elliminist wrote:On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts. He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Should the case be found innocent, I think the TL Mods should bring out into the open the TRUE identity of the individual attempting to destroy a Pro's career and oust him from the community. It is unlikely this is a vendetta, there is reasonable suspicion after all. If Spades is innocent, giving out the personal information of the guy so he can be harassed from the internet is incredibly stupid. How do you know this person wasn't just trying to protect the integrity of the game? Would he then deserve to be harassed? Since when do two wrongs make a right? It is a good thing we don't have you making important decisions here.
TeamLiquid forbids more then one account, and surely should forbid someone hidding behind smurf and throwing career-breaking accusations without real proof. Because this thread is still alive, even if 50+ pages after there is no real proof, I'll guess TL mods know who OP is and decided to forget about rules.
Anyway, I kinda lost a ton of respect for TL today. Letting this go, as it is, is worse then Reddit without moderation... 
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On June 05 2012 08:37 avilo wrote:I actually have accused spades b4 of hacking / called him out on it during a game I played on my stream before. He was former teammate so I gave him benefit of the doubt, but it seemed painfully obvious that he was gaining extraordinary perception in this game from ladder: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=264521A few things make it painfully obvious. First off, he's doing an exact mirror build off of zero scouting which is incredibly rare to happen. But that's not where the lulz come. I then end up getting contained, but I decided to purposely "bait" him a couple times and see how he reacts during this contain to verify if he's hacking or not. Every high level TvTer can verify how questionable and suspicious the decisions are from 13:00 min in this game during the contain. First, note the perfect placement of his tanks just outside of the range of my already pre-sieged tanks...could be luck, but suspicious to start. Next, I purposely make a viking flower as if I am going to leap frog tanks to gain vision over his tanks. Spades has zero vikings. 13:23, he looks where my tanks are, send a marine forward, standard to confirm, but he has no scans, and he doesn't seem to be afraid at all of my tanks moving forward at all... 13:30 he gets energy to scan now, that every high level TvT would save if they want to keep this contain up, otherwise they may just retreat without vikings for vision. 13:34 HE MULES, still not saving scans...leaving every tank sieged still, while knowing that I have the viking advantage for vision, notice my tanks have not moved an inch and he is not worrying about his tanks at all even though he knows he has no way to get vision...WTF? 13:41 This is where my detective work comes in. I make a viking flower pretending that i am about to leap frog my tanks forward. But I leave all my tanks purposely sieged in the same spot. He obviously is looking through the fog of war and sees that I have not moved them, every good player here throws up a scan, but he knows they are in the same exact position as before, so he does not move his tanks away, and he used the mule. He does walk a marine forward though. 13:50 He has a scan available now. 14:09 Another marine moves forward 14:30 Notice this is the first time that I unsiege any tanks near the contain, and what I plan next is to purposely feint a leapfrog forward and then insta-move back to see if he insta-scans. Keep in mind, every single instance before this that I have viking flowered as if leapfrogging forward, he has never reacted at all, no scan. 14:36 I make the final "bait" move here and I purposely do not viking flower to see how he reacts. The instant I move the tanks forward he insta-moves his screen to that location, insta-scans, and I did not siege because, like I said, I was already suspicious at that point and was curious how he would react. Incredibly suspicious imo...some would say incredibly obvious as well. I was streaming at the time, and even more curious was spades was immediately on my stream out of no where to immediately defend himself...-_-
I looked through everything you said here and I must agree. It seemed very very suspicious.
The problem is though, with the maphack out today it's almost impossible to be 100% sure even though it most certainly looks like he hacks. I do not understand why Blizzard does not have an antihack setup that can catch people hacking. :S
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On June 05 2012 11:08 TechNoTrance wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:54 elliminist wrote:On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts. He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Should the case be found innocent, I think the TL Mods should bring out into the open the TRUE identity of the individual attempting to destroy a Pro's career and oust him from the community. It is unlikely this is a vendetta, there is reasonable suspicion after all. If Spades is innocent, giving out the personal information of the guy so he can be harassed from the internet is incredibly stupid. How do you know this person wasn't just trying to protect the integrity of the game?
Its more of an attempt to protect the anonymity of the accuser. If you are going to accuse someone, have the balls to attach your name to it. The accusation means a lot less if you don't.
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Dude the direction in which you scout with your scv is not important whatsoever. Even if he were maphacking he isn't stupid enough to always scout where the opponent is. The best way to tell if someone is cheating or not is to watch their moves and from what I've seen so far he is just a solid player.
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im not sure if this has been said, didnt bother to read all 55 pages, but is it just me or is OP a new acc with 1 post? really?
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On June 05 2012 11:12 EtherealDeath wrote:My small contribution of data after reviewing his replay pack. Note I did this ONLY on on 4 player maps. I.E. not Shakuras, as that's 3 player. Scouting Orientation9 Counterclockwise 5 Clockwise Attempt on which the opponent was found7 First try 4 Second try 3 Last try Replays which were used: + Show Spoiler +
Entombed Valley (60)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds Zeus second
Tal'Darim LE (72)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds mewbert last
Antiga Shipyard (99)
Scouts clockwise, finds MGdropin first
Tal'Darim LE (71)
Scouts clockwise, finds BrokenAxle first
Tal'Darim LE (70)
Scouts clockwise, finds KaBaM first (the probe movement did somewhat suggest this though)
Antiga Shipyard (98)
Scouts clockwise, finds Mass second
Tal'Darim LE (69)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds spencer first
Antiga (97)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (96)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Antiga (95)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (94)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Tal'Darim (68)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Entombed (59)
Scouts clockwise, finds first
Antiga (93)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Overall, it's too small a sample size to come to any conclusions. After all even just changing scouting direction in 2 games would make the data seem perfectly incognito. So, a larger sample size on 4 player maps would be needed to come to make any inferences in this regard. However it is not blatantly skewed towards always getting it right, so I do not think this data is indicative of Spades hacking. At the same time, since it's clear that he doesn't scout in the same direction every game, I think if I were able to get a much larger sample size of Spades' 4 player games, and if the data there were about as expected from more or less random scouting, it could be a useful point in Spades' defense.
Not to sound rude, but why on earth do you think this qualifies as definitive data either way? You should be watching army movements, build decisions and keep an eye out for camera lock / minimap scan habits. Do you even know what you're looking for?
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On June 05 2012 11:14 ChewbroCColi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:37 avilo wrote:I actually have accused spades b4 of hacking / called him out on it during a game I played on my stream before. He was former teammate so I gave him benefit of the doubt, but it seemed painfully obvious that he was gaining extraordinary perception in this game from ladder: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=264521A few things make it painfully obvious. First off, he's doing an exact mirror build off of zero scouting which is incredibly rare to happen. But that's not where the lulz come. I then end up getting contained, but I decided to purposely "bait" him a couple times and see how he reacts during this contain to verify if he's hacking or not. Every high level TvTer can verify how questionable and suspicious the decisions are from 13:00 min in this game during the contain. First, note the perfect placement of his tanks just outside of the range of my already pre-sieged tanks...could be luck, but suspicious to start. Next, I purposely make a viking flower as if I am going to leap frog tanks to gain vision over his tanks. Spades has zero vikings. 13:23, he looks where my tanks are, send a marine forward, standard to confirm, but he has no scans, and he doesn't seem to be afraid at all of my tanks moving forward at all... 13:30 he gets energy to scan now, that every high level TvT would save if they want to keep this contain up, otherwise they may just retreat without vikings for vision. 13:34 HE MULES, still not saving scans...leaving every tank sieged still, while knowing that I have the viking advantage for vision, notice my tanks have not moved an inch and he is not worrying about his tanks at all even though he knows he has no way to get vision...WTF? 13:41 This is where my detective work comes in. I make a viking flower pretending that i am about to leap frog my tanks forward. But I leave all my tanks purposely sieged in the same spot. He obviously is looking through the fog of war and sees that I have not moved them, every good player here throws up a scan, but he knows they are in the same exact position as before, so he does not move his tanks away, and he used the mule. He does walk a marine forward though. 13:50 He has a scan available now. 14:09 Another marine moves forward 14:30 Notice this is the first time that I unsiege any tanks near the contain, and what I plan next is to purposely feint a leapfrog forward and then insta-move back to see if he insta-scans. Keep in mind, every single instance before this that I have viking flowered as if leapfrogging forward, he has never reacted at all, no scan. 14:36 I make the final "bait" move here and I purposely do not viking flower to see how he reacts. The instant I move the tanks forward he insta-moves his screen to that location, insta-scans, and I did not siege because, like I said, I was already suspicious at that point and was curious how he would react. Incredibly suspicious imo...some would say incredibly obvious as well. I was streaming at the time, and even more curious was spades was immediately on my stream out of no where to immediately defend himself...-_- I looked through everything you said here and I must agree. It seemed very very suspicious. The problem is though, with the maphack out today it's almost impossible to be 100% sure even though it most certainly looks like he hacks. I do not understand why Blizzard does not have an antihack setup that can catch people hacking. :S
The day we all take heed of Avilo's advice on hacking, is the day we agree Combat-Ex was a talented BW/SC2 player who also could have given us a solid unbiased rundown...
You wan't proof, don't ask southern white men from the 40's if the black man was guilty... He needs an outside influence, such as TL/SOTG to really delve into this... Not Avilo the mediocre GM player or the platinium player who posted this awful thread with ridiculous accusations.
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On June 05 2012 11:16 Childplay wrote:
im not sure if this has been said, didnt bother to read all 55 pages, but is it just me or is OP a new acc with 1 post? really?
You didn't bother to read even to the second page, apparently.
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I will also say, as someone who has a mouse that dies very frequently, if you are scrolling when your mouse dies the game keeps scrolling. It sucks, a lot, when it happens.
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On June 05 2012 11:16 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:12 EtherealDeath wrote:My small contribution of data after reviewing his replay pack. Note I did this ONLY on on 4 player maps. I.E. not Shakuras, as that's 3 player. Scouting Orientation9 Counterclockwise 5 Clockwise Attempt on which the opponent was found7 First try 4 Second try 3 Last try Replays which were used: + Show Spoiler +
Entombed Valley (60)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds Zeus second
Tal'Darim LE (72)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds mewbert last
Antiga Shipyard (99)
Scouts clockwise, finds MGdropin first
Tal'Darim LE (71)
Scouts clockwise, finds BrokenAxle first
Tal'Darim LE (70)
Scouts clockwise, finds KaBaM first (the probe movement did somewhat suggest this though)
Antiga Shipyard (98)
Scouts clockwise, finds Mass second
Tal'Darim LE (69)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds spencer first
Antiga (97)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (96)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Antiga (95)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (94)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Tal'Darim (68)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Entombed (59)
Scouts clockwise, finds first
Antiga (93)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Overall, it's too small a sample size to come to any conclusions. After all even just changing scouting direction in 2 games would make the data seem perfectly incognito. So, a larger sample size on 4 player maps would be needed to come to make any inferences in this regard. However it is not blatantly skewed towards always getting it right, so I do not think this data is indicative of Spades hacking. At the same time, since it's clear that he doesn't scout in the same direction every game, I think if I were able to get a much larger sample size of Spades' 4 player games, and if the data there were about as expected from more or less random scouting, it could be a useful point in Spades' defense. Not to sound rude, but why on earth do you think this qualifies as definitive data either way? You should be watching army movements, build decisions and keep an eye out for camera lock / minimap scan habits. Do you even know what you're looking for?
I said it is too small to come to any conclusions. At the same time I said that since he clearly doesn't have a set scouting direction, if we can get more replays on 4 player maps it might be possible to see if any biases exist with regards to when he finds the opponent.
This is completely independent of whatever we get from build decisions.
If someone maphacks, you'd expect a bias. Not finding the bias does not mean innocence, but seeing a strong bias would be a basis for even more suspicion.
This is meant as an independent data point aside from the build decisions.
But as I said, that will require getting more replays than we have, because the current sample size is too small.
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On June 05 2012 10:55 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:57 crazystupid0 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Flonomenalz wrote:
hmmmm idk.
I'm not nearly high level enough to think my opinion on the replays matter, but the one part where he selects an scv WHILE looking at fog... I have no fucking clue how you can possibly do that without hacking unless SC2 is glitched.
I hope he isn't hacking again though, I like spades... If it was a idle scv you can select it with F1 and move it around clicking on the mini map. I do it all the time. You don't have to look at a scv to move it around. Except the F1 button immediately jumps your screen to the idle scv if the scv is not on your screen, so if the camera lock did not have the scv on screen (which I presume it did not, as people would not suspect him of maphacking by giving orders to an on-screen unit), then that points to hacking..
when you hit f1 to select an idle scv, the camera does NOT jump to the scv. it just selects it as if u hit its hotkey 1 time.
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On June 05 2012 11:21 Warillions wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:55 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On June 05 2012 09:57 crazystupid0 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Flonomenalz wrote:
hmmmm idk.
I'm not nearly high level enough to think my opinion on the replays matter, but the one part where he selects an scv WHILE looking at fog... I have no fucking clue how you can possibly do that without hacking unless SC2 is glitched.
I hope he isn't hacking again though, I like spades... If it was a idle scv you can select it with F1 and move it around clicking on the mini map. I do it all the time. You don't have to look at a scv to move it around. Except the F1 button immediately jumps your screen to the idle scv if the scv is not on your screen, so if the camera lock did not have the scv on screen (which I presume it did not, as people would not suspect him of maphacking by giving orders to an on-screen unit), then that points to hacking.. when you hit f1 to select an idle scv, the camera does NOT jump to the scv. it just selects it as if u hit its hotkey 1 time.
No. It always jumps, if it is not already on the current view.
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Interesting mouse point on the CatZ stream.
Tightly grouped move commands that would be difficult to do on the minimap were made while looking elsewhere on the map.
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On June 05 2012 11:21 Warillions wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:55 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On June 05 2012 09:57 crazystupid0 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Flonomenalz wrote:
hmmmm idk.
I'm not nearly high level enough to think my opinion on the replays matter, but the one part where he selects an scv WHILE looking at fog... I have no fucking clue how you can possibly do that without hacking unless SC2 is glitched.
I hope he isn't hacking again though, I like spades... If it was a idle scv you can select it with F1 and move it around clicking on the mini map. I do it all the time. You don't have to look at a scv to move it around. Except the F1 button immediately jumps your screen to the idle scv if the scv is not on your screen, so if the camera lock did not have the scv on screen (which I presume it did not, as people would not suspect him of maphacking by giving orders to an on-screen unit), then that points to hacking.. when you hit f1 to select an idle scv, the camera does NOT jump to the scv. it just selects it as if u hit its hotkey 1 time.
Why do people insist on posting shit like this without testing it in the damn game? It takes less than 30 seconds.
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On June 05 2012 10:54 elliminist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts. He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Should the case be found innocent, I think the TL Mods should bring out into the open the TRUE identity of the individual attempting to destroy a Pro's career and oust him from the community.
Wether or not Spades is hacking, the facts that the OP pointed are really suspicious. A 50+ pages thread and still noone can say exactly if it's hack or not. The OP sure did his research and had the right to bring this matter to the public view because Spades actions ARE suspicious...
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mod totally copied my post and made it sticky
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On June 05 2012 11:16 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:12 EtherealDeath wrote:My small contribution of data after reviewing his replay pack. Note I did this ONLY on on 4 player maps. I.E. not Shakuras, as that's 3 player. Scouting Orientation9 Counterclockwise 5 Clockwise Attempt on which the opponent was found7 First try 4 Second try 3 Last try Replays which were used: + Show Spoiler +
Entombed Valley (60)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds Zeus second
Tal'Darim LE (72)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds mewbert last
Antiga Shipyard (99)
Scouts clockwise, finds MGdropin first
Tal'Darim LE (71)
Scouts clockwise, finds BrokenAxle first
Tal'Darim LE (70)
Scouts clockwise, finds KaBaM first (the probe movement did somewhat suggest this though)
Antiga Shipyard (98)
Scouts clockwise, finds Mass second
Tal'Darim LE (69)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds spencer first
Antiga (97)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (96)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Antiga (95)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds second
Antiga (94)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Tal'Darim (68)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds first
Entombed (59)
Scouts clockwise, finds first
Antiga (93)
Scouts counterclockwise, finds last
Overall, it's too small a sample size to come to any conclusions. After all even just changing scouting direction in 2 games would make the data seem perfectly incognito. So, a larger sample size on 4 player maps would be needed to come to make any inferences in this regard. However it is not blatantly skewed towards always getting it right, so I do not think this data is indicative of Spades hacking. At the same time, since it's clear that he doesn't scout in the same direction every game, I think if I were able to get a much larger sample size of Spades' 4 player games, and if the data there were about as expected from more or less random scouting, it could be a useful point in Spades' defense. Not to sound rude, but why on earth do you think this qualifies as definitive data either way? You should be watching army movements, build decisions and keep an eye out for camera lock / minimap scan habits. Do you even know what you're looking for?
In theory, you would be under 50% likelihood of finding the opponent on the first scout, right? So if you are finding the opponent on first scout in the majority of games, it might suggest that you know where he is. But yeah, the sample size is way too small and this evidence is certainly very far from conclusive. But the idea of using actual data rather than speculation to determine if someone is hacking is certainly appealing.
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This thread, should have been immediately closed... One TL moderator did the correct thing, but because of other pressures reopened it... Now it's a burning shitstorm of personal opinions/vendettas/experts. This is exactly what makes this community look like shit, constantly, and it's personally embarassing because I take part in this community along with many others.
Please mods, close this down and find out for sure than repost a detailed tree that does NOT allow anyone (including myself) to post in it except TL mods/privleged few.
We can just allow 55 pages of witchhunting to progress and call our community the HUD for eSports. This is worse than reddit, and collectively we should be ashamed.
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EPT
