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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
Whichever way this turns out, mods may wanna consider renaming the thread to a title with a less definitive statement.
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On June 05 2012 06:18 QuanticIllusion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Defend the points made and I'll apologize and so should everyone. If you're not cheating, you shouldn't be afraid of defending yourself because there is nothing to lose. Either you play really fishy/"dumb" or you had some amazing game sense in the series, if what you are saying is true.
listen to what Illusion said Spades, stop dodging it.
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On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt.
Well kid, I guess you shouldn't have cheated in bw without being able to accept the concequences of your actions. You sound like a burglar trying to make a career in law enforcement, c'mon...
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On June 05 2012 06:12 cArn- wrote:
if he was hacking why did he lose to drops meching vs bio ? don't be ridiculous.
I've heard that people that hack that have a few braincells at least do moves like this to throw you off their scent. So when accused of hacking they can always say, " well if I was hacking how do you explain " x " or " y ". Of course hacking all the time, never making a single mistake and winning 99% of your games is going to get you figured out, it stands to reason that you would purposely lose games or make mistakes so people didn't get suspicious.
I don't know for sure if Spades hacks or not as the only way of being certain would be sitting behind him watching him load up the hack, but as we can't do that we have to speculate based on fishy play that a lot of pro gamers and others have seen him doing.
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If you're not cheating you have Flash starsense, yesterday you countered like a boss without scouting
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Never looking at the fog of war once is pretty strong indicator of hacking.
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On June 05 2012 06:23 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:This is the PM I sent to Antoine regarding this situation: Hello, I decided to watch these games with the intention of finding one non-circumstantial piece of evidence to show if map hacks were being used in order to try and bring some certainty to this situation, as no matter how much circumstantial evidence there is, one cannot use it to convict someone comfortably. I believe I have found some non-circumstantial proof when watching the first replay.
To see this in the replay most clearly, slow the speed right down.
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
For completeness, at 13:16 in the same game is an example of Lucifron scanning the center of the map using the mini-map. His screen jumps straight to the scan and the scan is exactly central to the screen (where he clicked on the mini-map).
I believe this shows conculsive proof that Spades' screen was locked while viewing Lucifron's base and was therefore using a maphack. I'm going to thoroughly test this out, make a vid etc. There isn't any difference between the camera mechanics on single vs multiplayer mode right? Cause I don't want to risk running a maphack on my account while online... haha. edit: Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:21 Roxor9999 wrote:On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:This is the PM I sent to Antoine regarding this situation: Hello, I decided to watch these games with the intention of finding one non-circumstantial piece of evidence to show if map hacks were being used in order to try and bring some certainty to this situation, as no matter how much circumstantial evidence there is, one cannot use it to convict someone comfortably. I believe I have found some non-circumstantial proof when watching the first replay.
To see this in the replay most clearly, slow the speed right down.
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
For completeness, at 13:16 in the same game is an example of Lucifron scanning the center of the map using the mini-map. His screen jumps straight to the scan and the scan is exactly central to the screen (where he clicked on the mini-map).
I believe this shows conculsive proof that Spades' screen was locked while viewing Lucifron's base and was therefore using a maphack. This is not true. http://drop.sc/191482 Hmmm...
He's wrong, don't bother with it
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On June 05 2012 06:23 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:This is the PM I sent to Antoine regarding this situation: Hello, I decided to watch these games with the intention of finding one non-circumstantial piece of evidence to show if map hacks were being used in order to try and bring some certainty to this situation, as no matter how much circumstantial evidence there is, one cannot use it to convict someone comfortably. I believe I have found some non-circumstantial proof when watching the first replay.
To see this in the replay most clearly, slow the speed right down.
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
For completeness, at 13:16 in the same game is an example of Lucifron scanning the center of the map using the mini-map. His screen jumps straight to the scan and the scan is exactly central to the screen (where he clicked on the mini-map).
I believe this shows conculsive proof that Spades' screen was locked while viewing Lucifron's base and was therefore using a maphack. I'm going to thoroughly test this out, make a vid etc. There isn't any difference between the camera mechanics on single vs multiplayer mode right? Cause I don't want to risk running a maphack on my account while online... haha.
Camera mechanics are the same. Unfortunately, it's slightly cloudy because of camera lag in replays. I explored this when I watched the game of Flash vs. Kawaiirice, thinking it couldn't be flash because the camera suggested a complete lack of map awareness, but in reality it may simply not be recording extremely brief checks.
In your testing make sure to include very rapid position shifts.
EDIT:
ahh, it's been shown to be false anyways. Alright, so people can stop using it as evidence now.
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On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt.
I will keep watching you for as long as I can Spades, at least your games are very very good! Maybe you will loose some audience, but you can achieve whatever you want in life if you train and act properly. We all make mistakes, hell, I´ve made so many mistakes to my family, friends, but I´ve grown up. That´s all I wanted to say to you.
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On June 05 2012 06:18 QuanticIllusion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Defend the points made and I'll apologize and so should everyone. If you're not cheating, you shouldn't be afraid of defending yourself because there is nothing to lose. Either you play really fishy/"dumb" or you had some amazing game sense in the series, if what you are saying is true.
Alright, since i respect you, I'll answer all your questions, just give me a few minutes to look over and see.
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These kind of threads should never be made. If the accusation is false the player's name is ruined. Only if someone has REAL proof, he should come forward with his information.
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On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim.
It does suck that in the Starcraft community people are guilty until proven innocent, and its impossible for someone to prove they aren't hacking unless they were streaming themselves playing. Although in Spades' case he has hacked in the past which makes it very damning when this stuff comes up.
Basically everything is just here-say, no one knows for sure with 100% certainty if he was hacking or not. I will say that pros do a lot of things that seem suspicious, hell we all have. You could take a 7 game series of anyone, hardcore break it down, and be able to find things that are suspicious.
All I'm saying is let it play out before you jump to instant conclusions about someone. I'm sure all of us legit players have been accused of hacking at least by someone, especially if you are good.
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If you believe you need to hack in order to do well in SC2 I feel this is about the right time for you to retire.. Hoping it's not true though!
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On June 05 2012 06:23 m0ck wrote:
However this turns out, mods may wanna consider renaming the thread to a title with a less definitive statement.
This would be a great idea. It's a discriminating title that implies guilt when only circumstantial evidence has been presented.
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Incontrol said that Spades played fishy against him on the ladder, so i think Incontrol and anybody else who has replays of Spades playing dodgy on the ladder should post them in this thread and let people analyze them.
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Simply because you're not defending yourself with all your might, and you're giving up and retiring, I bet you're hacking.
Any normal, innocent person, would defend themselves vehemently with this type of accusation. You're just like "man! everyone is always down on me! guess ill retire after the next tournament!"
Fucking defend your self if you're innocent, you look so bad just copping out like you are.
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On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt.
If you explain all the random little pauses in your play I'll be pretty much satisfied..
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Have to say I'm disgusted by all this. How many of you actually watched the show match? Spades complained about having problems with his mouse after game 1, but no, lets just assume his camera slipping or staying in one spot is a hack and not the obvious.
If this guy didn't have enough faith in his claims to post it on his real account, how credible is this thread to begin with? Not to mention some suggestions are plain stupid. "Despite having a marine and a Barrack to spot any kind of drop, he doesn't see LucifroN's drop comming, however, he leaves all his hellions on his natural instead of having them around the map which would be the most normal given that you haven't spotted any drop comming." Yes, because you don't wait until your maxed when you play mech vs bio, you send your helions out alone to watch them get eaten by marauders.
I'll look into it, but especially considering how late Spades often reacted to drops in game.. 5? Where luci went bio vs his mech, I certainly didn't see it while casting. I think it's highly inappropriate that so many people are jumping to conclusions.
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I have never like Spades, not in BW when he WAS caught hacking, not in SC2 when he kind of screwed over reign. After viewing the replays they do look EXTREMELY suspect, and while yes I cannot say definitively that he was hacking, what I can say is that he has hacked before, he is a smart person, he knows how not to get caught. The fact that lucifron dropped him successfully a few times, and he lost a medivac mean NOTHING I hope people realize. When you hack, if you have perfect game sense and what not, then yes you will be caught. Losing a drop here and there is not terrible, and it helps hackers say "but if I was hacking, why did that happen?!"
I will try and reserve judgement until more pro's have put up their thoughts, or there is a ruling either way, but man this looks terrible for spades, and I hope he is gone after this.
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very few of you are qualified to be debating this. i don't feel like any progress is to be made on something like this until there is solid proof. i think this specific topic is insanely dangerous in a public forum and should be handled with care by people with authority... if and when facts come out. then it should be handed to the public.
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EPT
