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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim.
Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life.
If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you.
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On June 05 2012 06:06 Spades wrote:
I'm not going to read into this because it makes no sense, I think alot of this says i look at there base before scanning or something? Watch vods of my stream, i always look at fog, then scan immediately afterwards. I think this is s tupid people are calling me a hacker to discredit my "close defeat" in a showmatch. Just because my history people find things to discredit me. Pretty pathetic.
I could go case by case defending myself, but this is just sad.
You should play a showmatch against Lucifron or someone else good, and stream it.
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Spades I would like to ask: could you explain the camera locks? Not on a specific basis, but on a general level. Is it just slow play, lag, or something else I'm not considering?
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On June 05 2012 06:06 Spades wrote:
I'm not going to read into this because it makes no sense, I think alot of this says i look at there base before scanning or something? Watch vods of my stream, i always look at fog, then scan immediately afterwards. I think this is s tupid people are calling me a hacker to discredit my "close defeat" in a showmatch. Just because my history people find things to discredit me. Pretty pathetic.
I could go case by case defending myself, but this is just sad.
Unfortunately your replays show that you're lying. The scan happens immediately with the camera move.
edit: removed a statement that turned out to be incorrect
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On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim.
Defend the points made and I'll apologize and so should everyone. If you're not cheating, you shouldn't be afraid of defending yourself because there is nothing to lose. Either you play really fishy/"dumb" or you had some amazing game sense in the series, if what you are saying is true.
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On June 05 2012 06:08 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:This is the PM I sent to Antoine regarding this situation: Hello, I decided to watch these games with the intention of finding one non-circumstantial piece of evidence to show if map hacks were being used in order to try and bring some certainty to this situation, as no matter how much circumstantial evidence there is, one cannot use it to convict someone comfortably. I believe I have found some non-circumstantial proof when watching the first replay.
To see this in the replay most clearly, slow the speed right down.
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
For completeness, at 13:16 in the same game is an example of Lucifron scanning the center of the map using the mini-map. His screen jumps straight to the scan and the scan is exactly central to the screen (where he clicked on the mini-map).
I believe this shows conculsive proof that Spades' screen was locked while viewing Lucifron's base and was therefore using a maphack. I don't understand the point you are making. You say that "the only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen." Which ... is possible without having a camera lock, isn't it? Just as you say, he could just be staring at the fog and manually placing a scan that ended up off-centered. For the record, Illusion's analysis does sound pretty damning though. I haven't watched the replays, but I believe what he is saying is that the camera was pointed somewhere else, then immediately jumped to the off-center location when the scan begun, which would only be possible if Spades was using a maphack that hid his camera position.
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On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you.
I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt.
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Sorry man, but never looking at fog of war is weird. Everyone does it occasionally.
Never looking at fog is insane.
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If he scans using the minimap, moves the mouse a millimeter and then clicks the minimap.
Wont the screen be a bit off-center to the scan?
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On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim.
Right, innocent until proven guilty. We wouldn't be having this conversation if not for BW events, and thus far it is just circumstantial.
I think it would be really simple to test the camera centre-ing-on-scan claim, one would just have to make a game, and scan on the minimap several times on the same map in a similar/same location and see if you ever get results similar to what's in the replay. If not, that's pretty solid evidence, if so, then it looks a bit less fishy.
EDIT:
On June 05 2012 06:19 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main. Considering what I wrote above, this is also possible if he scanned the minimap, and his mouse cursor moved slightly down before the 2nd click on the minimap.
ahhhh, right, it's true-- replays don't always reflect perfect camera placement, and suffer from a bit of lag time. It might not be conclusive either way if there were two rapid clicks in succession.
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Israel2209 Posts
On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
Can you clarify this a bit?
From what I can tell, when a terran scans on the minimap the camera doesn't change automatically at all. Only if you leftclick the minimap a 2nd time your camera is sent there.
On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
Considering what I wrote above, this is also possible if he scanned the minimap, and his mouse cursor moved slightly down before the 2nd click on the minimap.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt.
hey its free publicity
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On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:This is the PM I sent to Antoine regarding this situation: Show nested quote +Hello, I decided to watch these games with the intention of finding one non-circumstantial piece of evidence to show if map hacks were being used in order to try and bring some certainty to this situation, as no matter how much circumstantial evidence there is, one cannot use it to convict someone comfortably. I believe I have found some non-circumstantial proof when watching the first replay.
To see this in the replay most clearly, slow the speed right down.
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
For completeness, at 13:16 in the same game is an example of Lucifron scanning the center of the map using the mini-map. His screen jumps straight to the scan and the scan is exactly central to the screen (where he clicked on the mini-map).
I believe this shows conculsive proof that Spades' screen was locked while viewing Lucifron's base and was therefore using a maphack.
This is not true.
http://drop.sc/191482
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On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt.
Then defend yourself if you're right we'll all put our hands up and say spades you played fucking amazing deserve all the credit
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On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt.
Well, maybe if you started winning some tourneys, actually living up to your name, that wouldnt be a problem
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These type of threads are not good. We can't prove anybody is maphacking without a reliable utility to scan replays for hacks. So what's to stop people from shitting on people's reputations by making threads like this? How many people actually watched the replays before forming an opinion?
Then people demand he defends himself. Is anyone's opinion really going to change based on what he says?
I don't know if he hacks or not, but I just don't like this.
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On June 05 2012 06:20 Burns wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt. hey its free publicity
That falls along the lines of "All publicity is good publicity", and anyone who legitimately thinks that is an idiot.
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On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:
90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well.
From moderator experience in other communities (open source as well) it is often the hackers that call hacker on everybody else and you are saying 90% of people on ladder you think are hackers. This is either an over exaggeration to which it is pointless to even mention or just more questionable behaviour from you.
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I looked at a couple replays and I have to say I'm disappointed. I was going in hoping to see some blatant map hacking so I can sharpen my pitch fork and just hate the fuck out of spades. But unfortunately I didn't get that, in fact a lot of what I saw is just normal reactions that players make. And some of the things that he wrote down as potential map hacks are actually just fucking pathetic. Like things that aren't even close to possibly being map hacks. So I'm upset at the person who made this thread for wasting my time. Until he admits to map hacking or there is concrete evidence, I'm of the belief that Spades isn't map hacking and that the person who made this thread just dislikes spades.
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On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:This is the PM I sent to Antoine regarding this situation: Show nested quote +Hello, I decided to watch these games with the intention of finding one non-circumstantial piece of evidence to show if map hacks were being used in order to try and bring some certainty to this situation, as no matter how much circumstantial evidence there is, one cannot use it to convict someone comfortably. I believe I have found some non-circumstantial proof when watching the first replay.
To see this in the replay most clearly, slow the speed right down.
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
For completeness, at 13:16 in the same game is an example of Lucifron scanning the center of the map using the mini-map. His screen jumps straight to the scan and the scan is exactly central to the screen (where he clicked on the mini-map).
I believe this shows conculsive proof that Spades' screen was locked while viewing Lucifron's base and was therefore using a maphack.
I'm going to thoroughly test this out, make a vid etc. There isn't any difference between the camera mechanics on single vs multiplayer mode right? Cause I don't want to risk running a maphack on my account while online... haha.
edit: On June 05 2012 06:21 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:03 rANDY wrote:This is the PM I sent to Antoine regarding this situation: Hello, I decided to watch these games with the intention of finding one non-circumstantial piece of evidence to show if map hacks were being used in order to try and bring some certainty to this situation, as no matter how much circumstantial evidence there is, one cannot use it to convict someone comfortably. I believe I have found some non-circumstantial proof when watching the first replay.
To see this in the replay most clearly, slow the speed right down.
When a terran places a scan using the minimap it will take his camera instanylu to that position with the scan circle centred on the screen.
At 6:23 of game 1 on Antigua Shipyard, when Spades scans Lucifron's base his camera jumps to where the scan is, but the scan is off-center but to the top part of the screen. The only way this is possible is if he was already looking at this area and placed the scan manually not using the mini map and did not click the center of the screen. The only way this was possible is if the screen was locked on his base while he was looking at the fog. You can see in the replay that the screen moved instantly when he scanned to the off center position from his main.
For completeness, at 13:16 in the same game is an example of Lucifron scanning the center of the map using the mini-map. His screen jumps straight to the scan and the scan is exactly central to the screen (where he clicked on the mini-map).
I believe this shows conculsive proof that Spades' screen was locked while viewing Lucifron's base and was therefore using a maphack. This is not true. http://drop.sc/191482
Hmmm...
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EPT
