Probably because I watched BW for too long, but I really like the BW-style observer for SC2 games. I know a lot of things they show can be seen in the top-left tab, but it just seems more natural to follow the observer mouse, as well as not having to move my eyes off the big screen. Plus, the faster paced scene cutting gives more sense of action even during fairly dull moments.
Poll: Which observer style do you prefer?
GSL (314)
49%
OGN-Kespa (279)
43%
They're all the same to me (23)
4%
I don't really care (15)
2%
Foreign tournaments(unfortunately not enough of a SC2 viewer to discern difference among them) (11)
2%
642 total votes
Your vote: Which observer style do you prefer?
(Vote): GSL (Vote): Foreign tournaments(unfortunately not enough of a SC2 viewer to discern difference among them) (Vote): OGN-Kespa (Vote): They're all the same to me (Vote): I don't really care
I'm too accustomed and spoiled by OGN-Kespa observers. Frankly, I can do without the production tab in the corner. Just give me the population and resource count, I'm set. But trying to switch from watching BW for all these years to SC2 is gonna take long time... I dont even know counters!
On May 20 2012 17:15 Disregard wrote: I'm too accustomed and spoiled by OGN-Kespa observers. Frankly, I can do without the production tab in the corner. Just give me the population and resource count, I'm set. But trying to switch from watching BW for all these years to SC2 is gonna take long time... I dont even know counters!
Yea, I like the OGN observing. Production tabs are pretty useless and boring. It probably gets better once the players get better, we can just blame the half-assed transition league.
On May 20 2012 17:15 Disregard wrote: I'm too accustomed and spoiled by OGN-Kespa observers. Frankly, I can do without the production tab in the corner. Just give me the population and resource count, I'm set. But trying to switch from watching BW for all these years to SC2 is gonna take long time... I dont even know counters!
Yea, I like the OGN observing. Production tabs are pretty useless and boring. It probably gets better once the players get better, we can just blame the half-assed transition league.
That joke was pretty expected. I could guess your league...
OGN Kespa is actually amazing. I have been so impressed with how they have been obsing sc2, it actually looks like more is going on than there would be in a GSL cast.
On May 20 2012 20:29 Stratos wrote: I don't understand the thread at all. Why is it in the BW forums?
I guess more out of habit as I don't think I've ever started a thread in the SC2 section. Someone could make one over there though. BW section these days are kind of a hybrid anyways.
On May 20 2012 22:28 Angra wrote: What's the GSL/Foreign tournaments style? I haven't really watched much of either so what's the difference between those and the OGN style?
OGN is awesome, with dramatic close-ups in players faces and the observer never misses any action, the screen is overall cleaner (no unit health bar, no APM bar, no units lost bar, or any other of the useless bars). Cast feels dynamic, especially with such awesome commentators and BW epic crowd.
In GSL they just put on the screen as much shit as they possibly can, they often keep switching those useless bars (APM, units lost, workers lost, etc), they also leave all the units/buildings health bars on all the time. Instead of epic zooms, they just have a static camera in each players face all game long in the HUD. Cast feels static, especially with almost no crowd cheering.
OGN obs didn't bother me, but i prefer GSL's style. I wanna see things like how many workers were lost and things like that. It's valuable information that is hard to actually keep track off for the viewer.
OGN does very well and I think they may have the best production in esports, but I have to give it up for ST_Legend over at GSL. He really stepped it up for SC2 and improved upon everyone before him. The best observer on the planet, "The Sauron Observor, ST_Legend.
On May 20 2012 22:28 Angra wrote: What's the GSL/Foreign tournaments style? I haven't really watched much of either so what's the difference between those and the OGN style?
OGN is awesome, with dramatic close-ups in players faces and the observer never misses any action, the screen is overall cleaner (no unit health bar, no APM bar, no units lost bar, or any other of the useless bars). Cast feels dynamic, especially with such awesome commentators and BW epic crowd.
In GSL they just put on the screen as much shit as they possibly can, they often keep switching those useless bars (APM, units lost, workers lost, etc), they also leave all the units/buildings health bars on all the time. Instead of epic zooms, they just have a static camera in each players face all game long in the HUD. Cast feels static, especially with almost no crowd cheering.
This is not true. In GSL only the units/buildings selected have health bars shown, and they mainly only show the Production and Units tab. After a successful (or even unsuccessful) harrassment they may bring up the "Units/Workers Lost" overlay on the middle for a brief amount of time to show how successful the harrassment. I never see them use the APM tab (not to say they never have I just haven't seen it), and I actually saw OGN use the APM in the first game I watched today, the PvP with Best vs whoever he was playing.
On May 20 2012 22:28 Angra wrote: What's the GSL/Foreign tournaments style? I haven't really watched much of either so what's the difference between those and the OGN style?
OGN is awesome, with dramatic close-ups in players faces and the observer never misses any action, the screen is overall cleaner (no unit health bar, no APM bar, no units lost bar, or any other of the useless bars). Cast feels dynamic, especially with such awesome commentators and BW epic crowd.
In GSL they just put on the screen as much shit as they possibly can, they often keep switching those useless bars (APM, units lost, workers lost, etc), they also leave all the units/buildings health bars on all the time. Instead of epic zooms, they just have a static camera in each players face all game long in the HUD. Cast feels static, especially with almost no crowd cheering.
This is not true. In GSL only the units/buildings selected have health bars shown, and they mainly only show the Production and Units tab. After a successful (or even unsuccessful) harrassment they may bring up the "Units/Workers Lost" overlay on the middle for a brief amount of time to show how successful the harrassment. I never see them use the APM tab (not to say they never have I just haven't seen it), and I actually saw OGN use the APM in the first game I watched today, the PvP with Best vs whoever he was playing.
That's 'cause the opinion you're quoting was a very stubborn biased OGN fan... I've seen Proleague for long time and GSL too and I both are good to their objetives. It's annoying how hard fans of Father BroodWar (I've been one for 11 years) have silly, biased and unfounded opinions. If you don't like Starcraft and Strarcraft 2 you're not a Starcraft fan at all in overall terms. The fact about the tabs was almost hillarious, only streamers use APM tabs...
And for topic purposes, I'm more comfortable with GSL observer, Starcraft 2 flux of information (due higher dps and mobility) runs at higher rate and it's necesary certain extra info for enjoy the game... Both systems are designed for their purposes...
Is it just me or was the resolution for PL kinda weird? It's my first time watching, so I have no clue what their stream setup is like. Anyways, I prefer GSL's as they often show information such as upgrades, worker count, etc. Plus, during a big battle I want to watch just the fight, not the player's reactions.
On May 21 2012 05:22 RotterdamBlt wrote: Is it just me or was the resolution for PL kinda weird? It's my first time watching, so I have no clue what their stream setup is like. Anyways, I prefer GSL's as they often show information such as upgrades, worker count, etc. Plus, during a big battle I want to watch just the fight, not the player's reactions.
it is because they brodcast for tv, but I read somewhere they want to change and make it better next year
The production (blending of the shots of both player's faces) was impeccable, and bar Windows 7 trolling, the show went great (discounting any of the games \.
What I really wish the observers would do is get really good at manipulating the camera, bringing more cinemamatic artsy stuff! When all it is is watching big (beathball^2) engagements or big busts, they can make it look REALLY cool if they want to. Maybe not too much in the live games, but certainly in the replay review I would really like to see them:
Rotate the camera to align with the sides of attack so not // or \\ but || .
Zoom in adequately, especially for small micro engagements.
Unless they are deliberately showing stats on something that is selected, hide the GUI at the bottom for the most part. This is my preference, I just feel it looks much nicer! Combine with Zoom.
The best: Zoom, follow the army close as it makes a large dynamic movement, then rotate and spin out and around as the battle stabalizes.
The last one would be AMAZING for situations like "CJ Z" 's first bust/agression versus "KT T". When the big zergling army is streaming in, how sick would it be if in the recap you could watch that engagement, flying low over the zerglings as they run in and then panning out. It would finally look like a semi-realistic movie, rather than a strategy 'simulator'.
I should do a video of Observer techniques I wish would be implemented, I guess. It's all about using the tools to the most of their potential, and I would prefer a bit of artsyness over straight-forward strategy.
To be honest, I think I enjoyed them not having the production tab on the whole time. There was one point in the game where they showed storm when it just began researching and when an attack came a bit later they didnt switch back to the production tab. It increased the excitement for me i was yelling in my head please have storm please have storm! and he ended up getting it in the middle of the engagement which I think is cool.
I think OGN does better camerawork but ST Legend (GSL obs) is better at utilizing some of the SC2 specific obs tools. I think with some practice OGN will just be better in every way, coming from someone who has only seen WCG and a few PL games, while playing SC2 since beta. They already do some of what Legend does, such as timing the relevent information like worker loss after harassment, etc. but they've got a little bit more to go! I'm really excited overall with how well they did since it was OGN's second major SC2 broadcast, counting WCG.
I enjoy the OGN style much better. Who honestly cares about specifics when it comes to numbers? All you need to know was harassment was successful and instead of wasting time exclaiming how many a player got, the caster should be stating how significant of a blow it is to him and how he/she will recover as well as possible follow ups by the attacking player. Some people are curious though and this can be shown in the replay overview rather than the actual game (something that GSL and GSTL are severely lacking in their broadcasts). APM and stuff by OGN is usually done in individual leagues right after a commercial break with graphs to show peak APM and average APM. There is no need to view that information in game (again useless information right then).
Every tournament has a slightly different observing style, and as long as the observer catches the action, the little differences don't make or break the show. In fact, I like seeing stylistic differences between tournaments, and hope this diversity remains.
I typically like the game to be in the standard view, no zoom or rotation. Occasionally some extra bars with info or hiding the game UI can be fine, but only if done well, which takes a lot of time to figure out.
I don't really care whether health bars are on since I always played SC2 and WC3 with them on so it doesn't really bother me, but I think to watch it's a little better without them.
I like how GSL is a little smoother with the drag scrolling. It's really nice. Otherwise, I pretty much prefer OGN, other than being 4:3.
I really prefer the GSL style if only for the production tab. I feel like I just have no clue what's going on without it and get really annoyed when it dissapears. If OGN kept it open, then I wouldn't really mind either way.
Honestly the ogn style of observing is better for BW because there were no production tabs. I like Gom's (St Legends) simply because he points out important stuff (stuff that is unexpected or crazy army maneuvers) and never misses anything. Legend is the eye of Sauron.
On May 21 2012 09:55 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I really prefer the GSL style if only for the production tab. I feel like I just have no clue what's going on without it and get really annoyed when it dissapears. If OGN kept it open, then I wouldn't really mind either way.
I get the arguments in favor of no production tab or the like, but I feel SC2 without that information can look really random, because an attack at a perfect timing is indistinguishable from an attack that does tons of damage for no apparent reason. We'll see, though, as OGN gets used to it.
This poll is imbalanced since OGN has existed far longer than GOM. OGN's POV style is by far the best way and lets only hope that MLG pays more attention to their Brood War casts and how observing SHOULD BE DONE!!!
kespa league is casting in 4;3 resolution which is completely stupid. hope they fix it soon... and regards to the production tab .. it's vital to understand how people are thinking and reacting
I like both. GSL is nice because they switch through the different unit count/production/apm tabs. OGN has the epic face shots. Both could really learn from each other imo. Oh, 4:3 in SC2 looks awful....
Eh... GSL observer clicks on things already.. I tend to ignore the production tab for most of the time. I only glance at it occasionally or when it shows how many of each type of unit they have.
The OGN style for what I saw in Sc2 wasnt even close to GSL standards. Legend and Heaven from GomTV are SUPERB observers, far better than the OGN observer yesterday... at least in Sc2.
On May 21 2012 11:32 Stress wrote: I like both. GSL is nice because they switch through the different unit count/production/apm tabs. OGN has the epic face shots. Both could really learn from each other imo. Oh, 4:3 in SC2 looks awful....
I hated the face shots while watching SPL. I was always screaming for them to cut back to the action. Is that Brood War standard? The gamers face doesn't even show any emotion while they're playing, so it seems pretty unnecessary.
On May 20 2012 22:28 Angra wrote: What's the GSL/Foreign tournaments style? I haven't really watched much of either so what's the difference between those and the OGN style?
OGN is awesome, with dramatic close-ups in players faces and the observer never misses any action, the screen is overall cleaner (no unit health bar, no APM bar, no units lost bar, or any other of the useless bars). Cast feels dynamic, especially with such awesome commentators and BW epic crowd.
In GSL they just put on the screen as much shit as they possibly can, they often keep switching those useless bars (APM, units lost, workers lost, etc), they also leave all the units/buildings health bars on all the time. Instead of epic zooms, they just have a static camera in each players face all game long in the HUD. Cast feels static, especially with almost no crowd cheering.
Yeah, thats a totally objective and unbiased assessment..
On May 21 2012 10:56 onedayclose wrote: This poll is imbalanced since OGN has existed far longer than GOM. OGN's POV style is by far the best way and lets only hope that MLG pays more attention to their Brood War casts and how observing SHOULD BE DONE!!!
ST_Legend is awesome. I didn't really notice much difference in his observing style when watching PL yesterday other than lack of bars/production tabs. And I actually prefer being able to look up there and see what's going on, or have the "workers killed" bar pop up after some nice harass.
People saying GSL's style is messy and all that jazz haven't watched enough to speak without bias. Legend is brilliant. Both styles are great, but I really do prefer having those "useless bars" pop up every now and then.
The kespa style is better imo, except for the fact that they use a very low resolution just to make an easier the transition between both games. Edit.: Is just a personal preference, i like the gsl obs too, just prefer the kespa classic.
On May 20 2012 22:28 Angra wrote: What's the GSL/Foreign tournaments style? I haven't really watched much of either so what's the difference between those and the OGN style?
OGN is awesome, with dramatic close-ups in players faces and the observer never misses any action, the screen is overall cleaner (no unit health bar, no APM bar, no units lost bar, or any other of the useless bars). Cast feels dynamic, especially with such awesome commentators and BW epic crowd.
In GSL they just put on the screen as much shit as they possibly can, they often keep switching those useless bars (APM, units lost, workers lost, etc), they also leave all the units/buildings health bars on all the time. Instead of epic zooms, they just have a static camera in each players face all game long in the HUD. Cast feels static, especially with almost no crowd cheering.
Yeah, thats a totally objective and unbiased assessment..
Not only that but it's 100% wrong lol. GSL has plenty of zooms. Most casters have made comments/jokes about it, Legend is so amazing at getting zoom shots like the Nukes going off etc.
On May 20 2012 22:28 Angra wrote: What's the GSL/Foreign tournaments style? I haven't really watched much of either so what's the difference between those and the OGN style?
OGN is awesome, with dramatic close-ups in players faces and the observer never misses any action, the screen is overall cleaner (no unit health bar, no APM bar, no units lost bar, or any other of the useless bars). Cast feels dynamic, especially with such awesome commentators and BW epic crowd.
In GSL they just put on the screen as much shit as they possibly can, they often keep switching those useless bars (APM, units lost, workers lost, etc), they also leave all the units/buildings health bars on all the time. Instead of epic zooms, they just have a static camera in each players face all game long in the HUD. Cast feels static, especially with almost no crowd cheering.
Yeah, thats a totally objective and unbiased assessment..
Not only that but it's 100% wrong lol. GSL has plenty of zooms. Most casters have made comments/jokes about it, Legend is so amazing at getting zoom shots like the Nukes going off etc.
I think he means the zooms into the player's faces. Can you zoom in BW?
Anyways, the only time anyone does anything interesting is at the moments before they GG, showing their faces before really adds nothing.
ST_Legend needs to stop zooming in on units during battles. I hate that and it feel like it kinda ruins those OH SHIT moments... like baneling landmines and archon toilets.
On May 21 2012 13:46 Hokay wrote: ST_Legend needs to stop zooming in on units during battles. I hate that and it feel like it kinda ruins those OH SHIT moments... like baneling landmines and archon toilets.
The baneling landmine zooms are the best things ever, Legend turns them into works of art.
On May 21 2012 13:46 Hokay wrote: ST_Legend needs to stop zooming in on units during battles. I hate that and it feel like it kinda ruins those OH SHIT moments... like baneling landmines and archon toilets.
The baneling landmine zooms are the best things ever, Legend turns them into works of art.
Yah I have never felt like I missed a thing because of them. They enhance it. He doesn't do it in big battles...
I think they should have split screen face shots at certain moments so you can watch battles and faces if they are showing emotion. But, on topic.. Legend is amazing and shouldnt change a thing :D
A few thoughts that may not have come across in the OP. So that I can clear things up.
1. I'm speaking more about "style" rather than "did they catch everything." I do feel I see everything with both GSL and OGN casts. But they're different. The most obvious one being that Legend likes to use production tabs to give the info, while OGN would actually click on things themselves. To give an example, OGN ob would actually go through which barracks have the tech lab add-on and click on the EBay upgrading. This obviously is not necessary in the sense that they HAVE to click on them. But rather it puts the emphasis on such things to the viewer. I personally prefer this. But obviously for some this may feel redundant or take away from watching other things. And yes, sometimes the OGN observer will purposely hide certain things to give an air of suspense in BW. I didn't notice much in the SC2 casts, but if some of you thought that. It probably was by design.
2. OGN style, which of course came from the old BW style of observing, cuts very fast. You see something, and 2 seconds later you see something else. There's constant switching among bases and armies. For those who never watched BW, this was actually necessary, because there are no tabs for BW and the observer has to catch everything. The downside of course is that you may not be able to keep up with the observer or simply prefer a slower style. Perhaps it's because I'm so used to American TV/cinema(very fast cutting of scenes, different POVs). But the slower pace of GSL, and even moreso foreign tournaments, make the game seem slower. Again, this is more a personal preference.
3. As others have also pointed out, the resolution and 4:3 ratio is more for TV and the low resolution of BW games. It's very possible this gets changed once Kespa switches to SC2 full-time.
4. And lastly, I am asking about PERSONAL PREFERENCE. We all have our own preferences. I don't want it to be about A is better than B, because top observers do catch most everything.
Voted 'foreign tournaments', not because I'm "not enough of an SC2 viewer to discern the difference", but because I watch a lot and prefer foreign tournaments' observing. They miss the same things that Legend and others miss, but in the case of MLG they show it in other ways (picture-in-picture, "NOS performance replay" etc).
As a side note, I really want the people who cast/spectate to take half an hour and memorize all the hotkeys for the tabs in the replay UI. It's so obvious all the time when casters want the observer to show a certain tab but it just doesn't happen..
SC2 has a different spectator UI than BW, and using it to its full effect is something I don't think we've seen yet.
Another thing is the level of play - SC2 is still a young game and it's still very prone to 'army vs army' clashes being the only thing observed. When people like Gumiho incorporate an insane amount of multitasking, observers can follow the different parts of it, but how often do we see people do more than a 2-prong medivac drop or some burrowed infestors split away from their main army? It doesn't take long to show some infested terrans getting puked at a hatchery, or a DT waypointing across some drones, and those things happen infrequently too.
On May 21 2012 13:30 Kluey wrote: The Kespa face zoom when someone big happens to me is amazing. It links the game with real world and makes it look like a sport. It's brilliant.
YES!! THIS EXACTLY!! I always loved watching BW especially during those critical moments when crazy stuff was going on that would make the players display some form of emotion (ggaemo, anyone?).
That and when they switch to the fpview of a player showing his mouse clicks and which hotkeys they're using and for what. The sc2 version of the fpview isn't as great as the real fpview has been for BW :/ Not trying to turn it into another SC2 vs BW argument, just mentioning the few things that sc2 event producers could improve upon.
I really can't say which is better right now though. Proleague has barely had time to get used to observing in SC2. It is a horizontal transition, but the little details still need to be worked out. This poll is better saved until the second season of Proleague, when they've had time to reflect on their own performance and viewer feedback.
erh? there is none better than ST_legend! not that ogn isn't a close 2nd but .. legend is amazing. He shows everything that the observer needs to know even without the casters catching things sometimes. especially showing you what certain players have and haven't scouted and when the players are missing an upgrade or an upgrade is about to finish as a player starts to move out for a timing push ect ect.. countless things that i haven't really seen as much in any other casts than the gsl (ogn included.. though i give them leniency for just swapping over recently)
On May 21 2012 13:56 baubo wrote: A few thoughts that may not have come across in the OP. So that I can clear things up.
1. I'm speaking more about "style" rather than "did they catch everything." I do feel I see everything with both GSL and OGN casts. But they're different. The most obvious one being that Legend likes to use production tabs to give the info, while OGN would actually click on things themselves. To give an example, OGN ob would actually go through which barracks have the tech lab add-on and click on the EBay upgrading. This obviously is not necessary in the sense that they HAVE to click on them. But rather it puts the emphasis on such things to the viewer. I personally prefer this. But obviously for some this may feel redundant or take away from watching other things. And yes, sometimes the OGN observer will purposely hide certain things to give an air of suspense in BW. I didn't notice much in the SC2 casts, but if some of you thought that. It probably was by design.
2. OGN style, which of course came from the old BW style of observing, cuts very fast. You see something, and 2 seconds later you see something else. There's constant switching among bases and armies. For those who never watched BW, this was actually necessary, because there are no tabs for BW and the observer has to catch everything. The downside of course is that you may not be able to keep up with the observer or simply prefer a slower style. Perhaps it's because I'm so used to American TV/cinema(very fast cutting of scenes, different POVs). But the slower pace of GSL, and even moreso foreign tournaments, make the game seem slower. Again, this is more a personal preference.
3. As others have also pointed out, the resolution and 4:3 ratio is more for TV and the low resolution of BW games. It's very possible this gets changed once Kespa switches to SC2 full-time.
4. And lastly, I am asking about PERSONAL PREFERENCE. We all have our own preferences. I don't want it to be about A is better than B, because top observers do catch most everything.
My only real issue with this is that GSL observers do click on things upgrading, or spells that have been researched for a specific unit. The production tabs may be there, yes, but Legend in particular makes sure to point things out with the mouse in case the people watching didn't quite catch it in the production tab.
Other than that though I haven't watched enough of OGN style observing to really comment on fast paced cuts, I may actually prefer that I can't really say. But at the moment I'd vote for GSL style just because I enjoy the production tabs and the units killed bars etc.
I don't think the OP did this thread justice. The OP fails to describe the differences among them. Some think it's just the observer it self but your talking more than that.
Guys, you gotta understand. Sc2 is 16:10 when BW is 4:3 (exept from kespa yesterday for unknown reason. )So no matter how many tabs and health bars, in sc2 you will see more.
Anyway, I love to actually understand what is going on in the game real time so i can make predictions of who is gona win with out "hurr durr 34 spines on the way but I didt know cos no production tab." Also plaer face zooms dont help. I know that in none of the sports i watch, they never zoom into anyones face when there is still axtion going on.
On May 21 2012 13:30 Kluey wrote: The Kespa face zoom when someone big happens to me is amazing. It links the game with real world and makes it look like a sport. It's brilliant.
YES!! THIS EXACTLY!! I always loved watching BW especially during those critical moments when crazy stuff was going on that would make the players display some form of emotion (ggaemo, anyone?).
That and when they switch to the fpview of a player showing his mouse clicks and which hotkeys they're using and for what. The sc2 version of the fpview isn't as great as the real fpview has been for BW :/ Not trying tLast mlg arena the real fpv was used kinda nicely.o turn it into another SC2 vs BW argument, just mentioning the few things that sc2 event producers could improve upon.
I like the player cams from the OGN cast. Almost everything else I prefer the way Legend does it. The production tab and the health bars are far too useful to hide.
On May 21 2012 14:46 RaiKageRyu wrote: I don't think the OP did this thread justice. The OP fails to describe the differences among them. Some think it's just the observer it self but your talking more than that.
That was my purpose for the thread. It's others that have expanded on it, like with resolution and stuff.
My opinion is the same about casters: I don't mind who does it as long as they do a decent job and it's not horribly noticeable from the best. As a relatively new fan, I have grown accustomed to GSL-style observing but I wouldn't mind any other as long as I get the relevant information I need.
On May 21 2012 15:12 Belisarius wrote: I like the player cams from the OGN cast. Almost everything else I prefer the way Legend does it. The production tab and the health bars are far too useful to hide.
exactly this. i dont know why u would wanna hide them - just cuz they were not there in bw? they still did an ok-ish job, but seriously, Legend is way up right now.
Selected group healthbars and productionbar is such amazing tools, so I think its unjust to OGN to compare the two right now as they havn't settled in yet. Based on yesterdays marathon it is GSL with no doubt for me. Knowing is half the battle!
ogn-kespa really incrased the number and duration of players hots for last 1-2 years. its getting boring. shuttles blow up of screen while we look at stork.
I've had several instances where the OGN observer missed showing me the information i wanted which rarely happens with the GSL observer, so i'm sticking with Legend. Also, some foreign tournaments are adding features that i'd really love to see in korean tournaments, for example the picture-in-picture.
Well if it is purely about the obsing in game, I have to vote for GSL, because I like to have the information the observer delivers. (I believe it is STLegend.) But maybe that is just because I am much more used to it and will change my mind, when I see more of a different style.
I just want resource count, food count, and WORKER COUNT. Anything else is secondary.
I usually only look at the production tab when I'm curious to see how close an upgrade (e.g. siege tech) is to finishing, but the observer often handles that anyhow.
On May 21 2012 15:12 Belisarius wrote: I like the player cams from the OGN cast. Almost everything else I prefer the way Legend does it. The production tab and the health bars are far too useful to hide.
exactly this. i dont know why u would wanna hide them - just cuz they were not there in bw? they still did an ok-ish job, but seriously, Legend is way up right now.
They provide too much information - something useful if you were observing your practice partner or analyzing a replay and trying to learn the game, but not something that's necessarily beneficial to viewer experience.
The more information you have, the easier it is to predict what will happen or realize how far ahead one player is, which does hurt the spectator element quite a bit.
On May 21 2012 15:12 Belisarius wrote: I like the player cams from the OGN cast. Almost everything else I prefer the way Legend does it. The production tab and the health bars are far too useful to hide.
exactly this. i dont know why u would wanna hide them - just cuz they were not there in bw? they still did an ok-ish job, but seriously, Legend is way up right now.
They provide too much information - something useful if you were observing your practice partner or analyzing a replay and trying to learn the game, but not something that's necessarily beneficial to viewer experience.
The more information you have, the easier it is to predict what will happen or realize how far ahead one player is, which does hurt the spectator element quite a bit.
I do see your point but that's way too simplistic. You can't just say that the production tab hurts the spectator element. It's important to think about and recognize the appeal of spectating StarCraft II. Totalbiscuit has said it very well in a recent Hot_Bid interview. Part of the appeal is that you know more than the players. You know there are six Zerglings about to hit the ramp and there is no Probe in sight to block it with a Pylon. It's exactly the fact that you have this information that makes StarCraft compelling to watch.
Does that mean that the production tab ultimately makes it a superior spectator experience because you now know even more? Not necessarily but neither does it ruin the spectator perspective. I, personally, am a huge fan of the production tab and all the other observer tools available because with something like the production tab it is easier for me to understand what a certain is player is doing and I don't just watch to be entertained. I also watch to learn something and maybe get a few inspirations here and there for my own play. That's a very important part of my viewer experience and I think I am not alone with that.
On May 20 2012 22:28 Angra wrote: What's the GSL/Foreign tournaments style? I haven't really watched much of either so what's the difference between those and the OGN style?
OGN is awesome, with dramatic close-ups in players faces and the observer never misses any action, the screen is overall cleaner (no unit health bar, no APM bar, no units lost bar, or any other of the useless bars). Cast feels dynamic, especially with such awesome commentators and BW epic crowd.
In GSL they just put on the screen as much shit as they possibly can, they often keep switching those useless bars (APM, units lost, workers lost, etc), they also leave all the units/buildings health bars on all the time. Instead of epic zooms, they just have a static camera in each players face all game long in the HUD. Cast feels static, especially with almost no crowd cheering.
Okay so this thread just again gets into bashing SC2? Why the hell are those bars useless? Why is it useless to know how many SCVs got killed? It amazes me how ignorant some of the "old guys" are. Imo a mix of both seems viable but I don't mind GSL or OGN, they are both good.
For me it's both: startale legend really shows all the action with the details but OGN's zoom on the faces is can be pretty dramatic and I feel GSL doesn't do this often enough.
Also I find it interesting how this thread was way in favor of brood war PL style when it was on the BW forums but since the switch it GOM has taken the lead. Asking for unbiased answers is just too hard given the mindset of most people here.
A combination of styles would be the best. Use ST_Legend as ingame obs, add the dramatic player-shots (at the right time, not during the action please!) from OGN and mix in the MLG PiP mode that they introduced last weekend.
On a related note, I feel that one of the reasons that people consider GSL (and now OGN) observing to be better than that of foreign tournaments is that the Koreans have a dedicated obs, while foreign tournaments, until recently, had one of the casters do the observing. I've noticed myself that when I don't have to talk about the game, I become much better at spotting and following the action. And MLGs observing has gone up considerably since they added Adebisi as dedicated observer.
On May 21 2012 19:57 Gladiator333 wrote: OGN-Kespa feels more casual friendly, but I prefer GSL since you can read so much more about the game what's going on.
Legend is so great at showing information, it sometimes feels like _he_ is casting the game without saying anything. Showing little details that the casters miss or clicking on buildings/upgrades when a player forgets or skips an important upgrade right before the player needs it.
I don't like the constant cuts to player's faces. I know what they look like and I don't particularly need to see a close up of their blank faces staring at a computer screen in the middle of a game. If that's important then use small player cams at the bottom like foreign tournaments (and more recently GSL) do, rather than interrupting the flow of the game every few minutes.
I think both have their merits. I will say that the few times I've tried watching the Korean versions of the VODs on GOM, I prefer their camera work over the English version. But the OGN observers are REALLY spot on. They almost never miss a thing. I watched one SC2 match they did (STX vs Team 8) and there was one point where both the scouting SCV and probe died within a second of each other and the deaths of both were show just in time. It was very smooth.
I used to like OGN's way to do this, but SPL opening day changed my mind. Some of the cuts to the player's faces were completely out of place. I don't want to see a player's face at the start of a huge battle. That happened more often than not. Production tab is a neat feature that helps immensely in terms of reading the game and I feel like it would be stupid not to use it. OGN's observer also almost always had the unit tab instead of the production tab open, which is stupid especially in the early to midgame.
I really like ST_Legend's observing. He barely misses anything, his movement is smooth and he uses the options sc2 gives him greatly without overdoing it.
The OGN one is much better than any of them. The only thing they are missing IMO is the names up top. NASL comes pretty close in second place as they are IMO the ones who have the best production quality atm out of anyone out there.
Personally I found that the SC2 portion of proleague were too low quality to bother watching, mainly due to having to listen to korean commentary and the picture quality, though the observing was pretty good IMO, esp for people who just did their first major SC2 broadcast.
However, GOM still takes it, thanks to their 2 years they have invested in the game already. Once the obs for OGN get a bit more experienced in all the obs functions possible with SC2 I think it will be much more even IMO.
I find the cuts to the players faces to be highly annoying. They always happen after a decisive moment and never actually show anything beyond a guy sitting in a booth. The way its done by other tournaments, showing a picture in picture of the player, is far superior and allows you to see the actual reaction to an engagement instead of the player 30 seconds afterwards. OGN stream quality is dire to a point where if they tried it you still wouldn't see anything tho.
Not to mention the SC2 aren't exactly high quality with a lot going on that could potentially stress observers. It's just easier to observe games where most of the times nothing happens until the one decisive engament (marines stim up ramp, get forcefielded, game is over).
I dont see much difference between the GSL and OGN obs in SC2, the GSL cast crew are veterans from BW casting, their production method isn't much difference from OGN, also if you did watched the PL opening day games, the OGN casters use production and unit counting tabs too, with wide-screen broadcaster the GSL is even cleaner. BTW: I hate the bottom overlay of some foreign tournaments (yes looking at you NASL).
EPT
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But at the moment I'd vote for GSL style just because I enjoy the production tabs and the units killed bars etc. 
