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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On May 14 2012 18:30 Witten wrote: 99% of the people posting in this topic have never lost a game of Sc2 due to imbalance. The fact that there is room to micro and macro better doesn't mean that balance isn't influencing the game on all levels. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
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lambda-
Germany147 Posts
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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takingbackoj
United States684 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On May 12 2012 05:08 Darkedge wrote: I find it interesting that people always find their own race the weakest and it is always the other races that are OP, this just shows how limited and biased people can be. They want to believe that when they win, they did it because of how skilled they are, overcoming the odds stacked against them. It also gives them a nice convenient excuse when they lose, they get to blame it on balance instead of looking at their own mistakes. Ultimately it all comes down to the human ego. People that can't overcome their ego will always be prevented from achieving their true potential. I find my own race kind of the strongest, the strongest lategame. I play protoss by the way. maybe that comes from being nearly as good with my off-races so I kind of know how hard it is to play terran and zerg. Yeah I get more mad when I lose with protoss than any other race because I know as a protoss player I feel like I should never be losing a PvZ and PvT and if I do so it's through my own mistakes | ||
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
On May 14 2012 19:06 takingbackoj wrote: I completely disagree with the op. Just like every other problem in the world, ignoring it is not going to solve anything. Being belligerent about the problems wont solve it either. An open dialogue about balance with individuals who are actually trying to fix the issues and not just angry because they lost is the best solution. But balance is no different than anything else in the world, ignoring a problem does not make it go away and there is no way anyone can think the game is perfectly balanced. I feel the "stop complaining and play" argument is a little elitest. Yes, the game cannot be perfectly balanced. Nothing is going to be perfect. But that doesnt mean you go around attributing losing or parts of the game to imbalance. The OP isnt saying "ignore imbalance". He's saying something along the lines of "dont just sit there and whine, it wont do you any good. either switch to whatever is "imbalanced" or find a way to overcome your problem". I dont feel like he's being elitest, he's addressing what he feels is the incorrect way of improving the state of the game, and suggesting an alternative | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On May 12 2012 05:03 Vindicare605 wrote: This sounds like a blog. But yea I tell people this same thing all the time since I play random and I encourage anyone who hasn't tried random on the ladder to do so to get a better sense of game balance. That said, Flash is a bit of a different example altogether because he's coming from Brood War. Which was a much better balanced game than SC2 is currently, so I can understand the frustration. BW wasn't a better balanced game, it was far more understood and developed that lead to a more balanced gameplay. If storm still dealt 125 damage, it would crush bio-play. Dark swarm would make fungal growth look up. And tanks doesn't do 1 million damage per shot anymore. Besides playing random doesn't give any sense of game balance since it forces your opponent to make a build that is not optimal at the start of the game, or he makes an incredibly risky strat. Playing 10 games with zerg, then 10 games with toss, then 10 games with terran. Gives more understanding of balance. | ||
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ZergOwaR
Norway280 Posts
On May 12 2012 05:08 Darkedge wrote: I find it interesting that people always find their own race the weakest and it is always the other races that are OP, this just shows how limited and biased people can be. They want to believe that when they win, they did it because of how skilled they are, overcoming the odds stacked against them. It also gives them a nice convenient excuse when they lose, they get to blame it on balance instead of looking at their own mistakes. Ultimately it all comes down to the human ego. People that can't overcome their ego will always be prevented from achieving their true potential. yeah people have a way of never blaming themselves  kinda fun though to try to change people on the ladder... its bm for sure to even try i guess.. but in a way it might change some people... i've had one success story where there was a terran that claimed zerg was op.. and after a discussion over 10-15 minutes i did manage to get through to him.. he admitted he made mistakes in the game and got advise on what i thought was hard to deal with when i go for the tactic i chose | ||
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dragonsuper
Liechtenstein222 Posts
Bad design choices, presumption, arrogance. All of this is coming on them. They ignored the community, and now it's probably too late for them to save the Starcraft Franchise. We are doomed.  p.s. BRING REAVER BACK AND KILL THE FRACKING BORING RIDICOLOUS IDIOTIC RETARDED COLOSSUS !!!!!!! AND THE FUNGAL AND THE ROACH AND THE MARAUDER AND THE REAPER AND THE QUEEN MECHANIC ... ... .. . On May 14 2012 12:48 Instigata wrote: The whole balance thing is hilarious. I wish we could have let things sit and only make changes when it's pretty much 100% agreed upon since BETA. Funny they say Terran is just fine since Koreans can do well with them (and Thorzain) and they are winning GSL and tournaments. Where were those thoughts when Z and P won the first two GSLs? SC2 is a joke and being dominated globally by LoL. Never thought the starcraft line would be dominated in Korea but it's happening. Blizzard making last minute deals and even Flash cannot save this heap of garbage. Diablo 3 will kill casual gamers playing SC2 and DOTA2 will finish off the competitive ones even with HOTS. I bet Flash and other BW pros hate things like Fungal, FF, and Concussive Shells since it disables a progamers ability to utilize skill. Not to mention I have never seen this many base trades in BW in 10 years as compared to SC2 in a few years. You Terran users should be happy that you can play a race that only Koreans and Thorzain can win with on the global stage. The best thing about spectating and watching pros is watching "OMG I could never do that" moves which seems to happen only with Terran. I'm not saying Terran pro users are more skilled, I think it's just Blizzard limited the other races. Although I do like Naniwa and FF even though it neutralizes the other progamers skills. EDIT: On a side note, some of you think Blizzard does a good job balancing? Just look at the maps they make, that should give you an idea how much they have a grip on this game. Barfs. | ||
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Mattacate
59 Posts
If any high masters player balance whined, would you take him seriously and make such a huge fuss over it? He said he has only been playing force a few weeks/months, and lets face it when pretty much everyone started FFs were imba as FUCK (good god FFs are such bad game design). Just move on people, please. Nice OP btw, exactly the mindset we need. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
yes, sc2 is still young when compared to bw, but in this day and age there are so many tools and references to make balance decisions off of, the process should be much quicker and efficient, yet this is not the case. how many times have we seen back and forth balance decisions, just wiki the build time for the terran bunker or rax. blizzard simply cannot get their numbers right. Another is blizz making extreme adjustments that are make or break, im talking bout things like snipe 45->25, warp prism shields 40->100. These things never happend in bw. | ||
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gh0un
601 Posts
You can only try to counteract heavy imbalances in the game, by adjusting values, thats all you can do. Even mirror matches arent possible to balance, because sc2 is a game of incomplete information. Furthermore, even if all the information was available, it would still be impossible to balance because you cant account for a player´s maximum skill ceiling. If every player had enough skill and speed to use every single marine in their group individually, then banelings would never be able to ever do anything against marines. But at what skill point do you draw the line and say: alright, the players dont have enough skill therefore banelings are good against marines and then proceed to balance around that fact? You can apply that logic to every scenario and ask yourself the same question. The game is not balanceable, just forget about it. If someone complains about something being imbalanced, he might very well be correct about that. Doesnt mean that there arent other imbalances that helps his race out aswell. | ||
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
That said, attributing everything bad that happens to you to balance is dumb. | ||
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BrandFilt
Sweden57 Posts
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote: Starcraft 2 has been out for less than two years. Think about how many years passed before the Brood War metagame became stabilized. Yes ... But No .... SC2 was developped with the information gathered throughout BW and WC3's balancing and patching years. It's obvious Blizzard wouldn't be able to perfectly balance it within the first 3 months of it's release but it is also wrong to expect SC2 to be balanced after all the years it took BW to be balanced, just because BW was probably one of the first game requiring so match patches post-release for a competitive balance. The only thing that could let us think SC2 not being balanced right now is acceptable is that it is meant to be a 2 expansion game, and therefore, the final product still hasn't been delivered (and this argument isn't much valuable either considering SC2 was meant to have an e-Sports activity from the very beginning of the beta). | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On May 14 2012 19:02 Advocado wrote: I hope they open for a way to ladder with each individual race. It will help bring more perspective and less whine. This is so true. I spent all of last season playing random, and it really opened up my eyes | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
On May 14 2012 19:50 reminisce12 wrote: your mindset of comparing bw and sc2 balance is ridiculous, i hear alot of people saying that bw had over 10 years to become balanced, which is terribly misinformed, the last balance patch for bw was in 2001. yes, sc2 is still young when compared to bw, but in this day and age there are so many tools and references to make balance decisions off of, the process should be much quicker and efficient, yet this is not the case. how many times have we seen back and forth balance decisions, just wiki the build time for the terran bunker or rax. blizzard simply cannot get their numbers right. Another is blizz making extreme adjustments that are make or break, im talking bout things like snipe 45->25, warp prism shields 40->100. These things never happend in bw. Actually, vanilla SC was horribly balanced and it was only with BW that things started to settle down. Guess what? There's an expansion coming for SCII. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
There are three distinct problems that led to how "balance" is perceived in the community these days 1) Lack of aggressive moderation - IMO every thread regarding balance made after Beta should have been lock-on-sight (possibly with the exceptions of - singular - patch threads). Likewise for posts, especially in unrelated threads. 2) Progamers being too whiny, especially in late 2010 and 2011, because they realized that making their opinion public can trigger balance changes that will be favorable to them. If Blizzard had guts and integrity, they would have stomped on this idea at day 1 of release. 3) Blizzard realizing that while they can never get the game more balanced than it was for a long time now, they can at least put out patches to make a certain race happy and artificially tweak percentages by fiddling with (and often times resetting) the metagame in a specific matchup. In a nutshell, players are only looking after their own interests, and Blizzard is adjusting balance on the basis of what will make the most people happy. The way it's been done so far, the patching will NEVER stop, and the game will likewise never really get any more balanced (but it can get less balanced). | ||
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