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Our Misguided Quest for Perfect Balance - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Swift118
Profile Joined January 2012
United Kingdom335 Posts
May 14 2012 12:07 GMT
#141
Yawn, people do not care when some random ladder guy balance whines but when its the best rts player in history giving his opinion on an rts game, people will listen. Your friend sounds like a ladder monster (or cheeser) playing 50 games a day, no wonder hes getting frustrated thats a lot of sc2.
Kulijo
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany49 Posts
May 14 2012 12:28 GMT
#142
Flash can't be serious. No one can say "everything about XY is OP" and be serious...

And to the whining people: Switch the race. Seriously, two weeks and you will think the opposite about balance. If you still have balance criticism take a minute and look how your race has constant good tournament results. Thank you.
Marti
Profile Joined August 2011
552 Posts
May 14 2012 12:29 GMT
#143
On May 14 2012 19:11 ThePianoDentist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 05:08 Darkedge wrote:
I find it interesting that people always find their own race the weakest and it is always the other races that are OP, this just shows how limited and biased people can be. They want to believe that when they win, they did it because of how skilled they are, overcoming the odds stacked against them. It also gives them a nice convenient excuse when they lose, they get to blame it on balance instead of looking at their own mistakes. Ultimately it all comes down to the human ego. People that can't overcome their ego will always be prevented from achieving their true potential.


I find my own race kind of the strongest, the strongest lategame. I play protoss by the way.

maybe that comes from being nearly as good with my off-races so I kind of know how hard it is to play terran and zerg.

Yeah I get more mad when I lose with protoss than any other race because I know as a protoss player I feel like I should never be losing a PvZ and PvT and if I do so it's through my own mistakes


I +1 this ( by pianodentist, the rest is more directed to the guy you quoted ) .
As someone pointed out on TL.net ( don't wanna dig up the thread ) blaming the game, in some situations helps you tremendously. Because if you can't blame the game the only other explanation for say a streak of 5 losses, is that you are really really bad at the game, and this kind of thought can shatter your image of yourself. So when loosing a lot, it's no surprise that you blame the game and start believing that your race is the weakest. WHICH ABSOLUTELY DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE GAME IS BALANCED. It just explains why people are SO biased. Add to that the fact that, if you don't play the other races every once in a while you have a harder time finding a "weakness" than a strength in them.
For instance you'd see a drop coming and it kills your tech or something and you'll go like " oh hey that sh*t is imbalanced it costs him so little and does so much" but if you were the one doing the drop you'd see how weak the rest of your army is and go " wow he has so much sh*t my army is so small" ( HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION )
#adun giveafuck - - - "Did this guy just randomly finger me?" - Sayle
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 12:40:11
May 14 2012 12:38 GMT
#144
On May 12 2012 05:02 IntoTheWow wrote:
I think Flash already has this mindset, else he would be throwing keyboards against the wall and not winning all the time in BW.

Take a PR interview on a league switch for what it is, nothing more.

Exatcly this. Instead saying "whats the point" he dismantled Stork on Katrina with double armory and proceed to dominate the scene for years, to give an example.

To add different perspective, for all those gods of BW playing a game which is still in balancing stage is a fresh experience, and some of them take it ... maybe to lightly? But when you hear their interviews about BW and how they like to whine about maps (half-jokingly) its really nothing new. Also remember that there was a bit in interview that said everything coming from BW scene regarding SC2 may be slightly exxagarated.

Conclusion, from SC2 fan perspective treat any up and coming interview with top BW player with a grain of salt. And take it with better attitude. Flash Bisu or Stork/Jangbi etc.can look way more human/whiney in non TV interviews than you might think.
Stork[gm]
Manex
Profile Joined August 2011
Australia156 Posts
May 14 2012 12:41 GMT
#145
yeah i too play random and see the MU's for what they are, individual contests where separate rules apply for each of the 9 MU's.
My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is *not* a porn star!
Marti
Profile Joined August 2011
552 Posts
May 14 2012 12:43 GMT
#146
On May 14 2012 21:38 bgx wrote:Flash can look human

Mmmh ? What ? I think yoy are gravely mistaken.
But yeah bisu is known for blaming the maps, and on the other hand you have forgg pretty much stealing jaedong's msl on the most T favored maps ever, and the dong not even complaining.
#adun giveafuck - - - "Did this guy just randomly finger me?" - Sayle
antilyon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Brazil2546 Posts
May 14 2012 13:15 GMT
#147
On May 12 2012 05:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
This sounds like a blog.

But yea I tell people this same thing all the time since I play random and I encourage anyone who hasn't tried random on the ladder to do so to get a better sense of game balance.

That said, Flash is a bit of a different example altogether because he's coming from Brood War. Which was a much better balanced game than SC2 is currently, so I can understand the frustration.


Not really, it isn't that much better balanced than SC2, just less volatile. That being said, the main difference about BW and SC2 imo is about the mindset.pepople who watch BW knows that if some race is looking inbalanced the reason probably is a metagame shift or the maps used instead of blaming on the units.
DemigodcelpH
Profile Joined August 2011
1138 Posts
May 14 2012 13:21 GMT
#148
On May 14 2012 21:28 Kulijo wrote:
Flash can't be serious. No one can say "everything about XY is OP" and be serious...

And to the whining people: Switch the race. Seriously, two weeks and you will think the opposite about balance. If you still have balance criticism take a minute and look how your race has constant good tournament results. Thank you.


Flash was serious actually, as are many professional players that are speaking out in vain in an attempt to get Blizzard to do something. Hopefully Blizzard will wake up one day.
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
May 14 2012 13:25 GMT
#149
On May 14 2012 20:59 starfries wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2012 19:50 reminisce12 wrote:
your mindset of comparing bw and sc2 balance is ridiculous, i hear alot of people saying that bw had over 10 years to become balanced, which is terribly misinformed, the last balance patch for bw was in 2001.

yes, sc2 is still young when compared to bw, but in this day and age there are so many tools and references to make balance decisions off of, the process should be much quicker and efficient, yet this is not the case. how many times have we seen back and forth balance decisions, just wiki the build time for the terran bunker or rax. blizzard simply cannot get their numbers right. Another is blizz making extreme adjustments that are make or break, im talking bout things like snipe 45->25, warp prism shields 40->100. These things never happend in bw.

Actually, vanilla SC was horribly balanced and it was only with BW that things started to settle down. Guess what? There's an expansion coming for SCII.

But we have to wait 2-3 years for that while Vanilla SCers waited 5 months ...

Stork[gm]
Detri
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom683 Posts
May 14 2012 13:29 GMT
#150
There is still more units to be added to the game (hopefully making mech more viable vs protoss QQ) but i have to agree with the sentiment of the OP, that the game is still evolving and that we have a lot still to discover.

The poor are thieves, beggars and whores, the rich are politicians, solicitors and courtesans...
urashimakt
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1591 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 13:39:07
May 14 2012 13:31 GMT
#151
On May 14 2012 22:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2012 21:28 Kulijo wrote:
Flash can't be serious. No one can say "everything about XY is OP" and be serious...

And to the whining people: Switch the race. Seriously, two weeks and you will think the opposite about balance. If you still have balance criticism take a minute and look how your race has constant good tournament results. Thank you.


Flash was serious actually, as are many professional players that are speaking out in vain in an attempt to get Blizzard to do something. Hopefully Blizzard will wake up one day.

He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.

I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.

On May 14 2012 22:25 bgx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2012 20:59 starfries wrote:
On May 14 2012 19:50 reminisce12 wrote:
your mindset of comparing bw and sc2 balance is ridiculous, i hear alot of people saying that bw had over 10 years to become balanced, which is terribly misinformed, the last balance patch for bw was in 2001.

yes, sc2 is still young when compared to bw, but in this day and age there are so many tools and references to make balance decisions off of, the process should be much quicker and efficient, yet this is not the case. how many times have we seen back and forth balance decisions, just wiki the build time for the terran bunker or rax. blizzard simply cannot get their numbers right. Another is blizz making extreme adjustments that are make or break, im talking bout things like snipe 45->25, warp prism shields 40->100. These things never happend in bw.

Actually, vanilla SC was horribly balanced and it was only with BW that things started to settle down. Guess what? There's an expansion coming for SCII.

But we have to wait 2-3 years for that while Vanilla SCers waited 5 months ...


Patch 1.08, the one that "fixed" Brood War, was released over 3 years after the original game.

On May 14 2012 22:33 tomatriedes wrote:
It's funny how people equate being very good at a game to being completely neutral when talking about balance.

No one is completely neutral when talking about balance.
Who dat ninja?
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
May 14 2012 13:33 GMT
#152
It's funny how people equate being very good at a game to being completely neutral when talking about balance.
Nuclease
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1049 Posts
May 14 2012 13:37 GMT
#153
Yes, I believe that Flash and many other BW pros are just having a difficult time adjusting to the new races (Zerg especially).

I think, mainly, it's just a matter of time before they get over it.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that, if one race started out with 3/3 upgrades and all their units flew, then that would be a problem. But, with the way the game is now, I agree that balance whining is largely (VERY largely) overdone. Most people who complain about balance aren't even in a stage of the game in which they can even be affected by it. They just QQ because they don't know why the lost.
Zealots, not zee-lots. | Never forget, KTViolet, Go)Space. | You will never be as good as By.Flash, and your drops will never be as sick as MMA.
Pazuzu
Profile Joined July 2011
United States632 Posts
May 14 2012 13:46 GMT
#154
On May 12 2012 05:02 IntoTheWow wrote:
I think Flash already has this mindset, else he would be throwing keyboards against the wall and not winning all the time in BW.

Take a PR interview on a league switch for what it is, nothing more.


Well said.
"It is because intuition is sometimes right, that we don't know what to do with it"
DemigodcelpH
Profile Joined August 2011
1138 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 13:57:58
May 14 2012 13:55 GMT
#155
On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.

I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.


False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you.

You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful.
BabyKnight
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark112 Posts
May 14 2012 14:16 GMT
#156
Good OP, but people will always whine, sorry to say.
Alexstrasas
Profile Joined August 2010
302 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 14:53:09
May 14 2012 14:51 GMT
#157
The whole balance issue is a bit more complex then what OP mentions.

Yes most of the times people complain about racial imbalances and don’t have a clue, are just sticking out for their own race and overall should just focus on their own gameplay. + Show Spoiler +
lol at OP for hinting this about flash tough


However you can’t generalize like that and mature balance discussion needs to take place, you can’t just accept by default the "politically correct" stance that the game is by itself balanced and if it’s not some sort of authority figure is going to fix it.
You are saying that SC2 has been out for 2 years and BW had more time to develop, but the thing is that SC2 isn’t a completely new game, a car brand uses the experience and information gathered with a previous model to greatly enhance the next one, and fix mistakes done previously.
However if you notice it, the SC2 balance team often completely disregards BW and tell people to go play it instead if they don’t like something in SC2.
But then again you can just disregard all this and bare in mind that BW wasn’t really balanced at all and it was Kespa that regulated things with their maps. If after 10+ years BW wasn’t balanced why do you think SC2 will be?
+ Show Spoiler +
Btw I’m not a BW fanboy as I barely played the game, the main issue is just that there is shit that worked in BW that for some reason isn’t working in SC2

SC2 also has of patches that fiddle with the metagame, but most of them are terrible and badly justified, even if you look at the future, at Hots more precisely, you see the same pattern, alot of various units were announced then most of them were pulled out, its like they literally just thought about new shiny things to put into the game without any regard to the general game play behind it, then when they actually tried them out they were like "OH wait.."

In my opinion SC2 desperately needs some sort of an open forum were notable SC2 related people gather up and discuss balance until shit gets done, maybe some sort of international version of Kespa or something?
Its not that hard people!

TL;DR: You can’t tell people to just stfu and play, because most of them don’t feel like the balance of SC2 is in capable hands, especially when you have prominent SC champions rectifying their opinions.
B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
May 14 2012 14:52 GMT
#158
Complete balance between three different forces that are completely different is impossible AFAIK.
Scrubwave
Profile Joined July 2010
Poland1786 Posts
May 14 2012 14:55 GMT
#159
--- Nuked ---
starfries
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada3508 Posts
May 14 2012 14:55 GMT
#160
On May 14 2012 22:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.

I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.


False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you.

You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful.

No one can figure out the game completely in a couple months. Not even Flash.

I'm not sure what "Protoss denial" is, but it just makes you sound like you're on tilt. Got all-in'ed a bit too much on ladder?
DJ – do you like ramen, Savior? Savior – not really. Bisu – I eat it often. Flash – I’m a maniac! | Foxer Fighting!
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