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Russian Federation142 Posts
On May 14 2012 12:41 Orzabal wrote:
Everybody is free to think the game is imbalance.
But you shouldn't complain about it unless you are mid or high GM. Because if you are not, this means that you have many way to improve your play.
Only tournaments results can tell us if the game is balance or not.
It may very well be balanced at the highest level, but it's not balanced for ladder play. One look at NA GM/high masters statistics will tell you what the balance is like for NA players.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race/all/1
I'm fairly certain many terran players quit due to how hard macro terran is compared to the other two races.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
One of my friends, who is high masters and ladders about 50 games a day, plays Zerg and constantly complains
I think balance is probably the least of his worries, if he's playing FIFTY games a day.....
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On May 12 2012 05:19 Holophonist wrote:
It's incredible how widespread this belief is, yet it always seems like the person presenting it seems to think they're breaking new ground.
Right off the bat I want to just squash this notion of "well if _____ is so overpowered, why don't you switch?" This bothers me to no end everytime somebody suggests it because it makes no sense in the context of the game we're playing. Each race plays vastly different and supports vastly different playstyles. I will never play protoss in a serious way. Ever. Not because I think they're the weakest, but just because it seems incredibly boring.
That being said, balance is a problem. Just because you always have a plethora of things you can improve upon doesn't mean that one of the things holding you back isn't balance. It's not even necessarily which race is overpowered or underpowered in general, it could be a certain unit composition in relation to your playstyle or it could be the learning curve in executing a strategy in comparison to how effective it is. I read a poll recently (don't remember where, sorry) that basically said 60% of zergs say their worst matchup is zvp... and oh by the way, 60% of protoss say pvz is their worst matchup. That isn't because zerg is OP in zvp AND protoss is OP in pvz. It means certain strategies on both sides are really really hard to deal with. The answer isn't for protoss players who die to 12 min roach max to switch to zerg and for zergs who die to 6 gate robo or any other 2 base timing to switch to protoss.
The thing about SC2 is the very way it's designed, at its core, is going to make it extremely hard to balance. It's so much more about strategy and sneakiness than it is about "skill-based" factors like mechanics. Also the units are just so much stronger and easier to get without much "economy management" involved.
Well put. People first think of units as bing "IMBA" rather it is the timing and strategies that drive the imbalance and create a innate (hopefully fixable) flaw within SC2.
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Isn't blizzard themself thinking units are imba? And do terrible terrible damage? Otherwise they wouldn't change them. This is such a great topic to waste your time on. Also I have to say I like your mindset but I have to say: I stopped complaining about protoss when I learned to macro better and beat my opponent the first time with a 12 minute maxout... I don't complain about ZVT or ZVP balance wise. For me it has nothing to do with my loses I lose all the time because I AM TO BAD. But the thing that upsets me is the game designe under the light of balance. This came to my mind when I started playing brood war... (as i came from wc3) gosh I would love to use lurkers and defilers... and i am sorry for the awesome units P and T lost or might lose in the future  because the game shall be balanced in the way blizzard wants it to be 
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Amen sir, well written article!
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balance threads are really difficult to have a discussion in
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On May 14 2012 12:48 avilo wrote:So this is turning into another flash thread/tvp thread. Never seen one of those before.  My two cents is: a) it's not a misguided quest when there's blatantly problems with the balance. Pretending that there's "nothing wrong" is certainly not a solution. b) flash is the best SC1 player. This does not mean he is the best SC2 player of course. But this also does not mean that his blunt/honest interview answers and thoughts about TvP don't have a lot of insight/thought behind them either. He basically said warpgates/forcefields were imbalanced, and that's a pretty fair statement the best SC player ever can make having just come to SC2. c) TvP lategame is not balanced. Most people at this point agree, most casters have finally acknowledged it in casts (aka honest casts), and soon I expect we'll see some buff to help out Terran lategame in TvP/TvZ, probably in the form of tweaking raven energy / other things. It's not a misguided quest - the game simply is not balanced. Even in PvZ lategame there are huge problems that basically all pros acknowledge are a problem like the entire game being decided by vortex/corruptor/infestor/broodlord/deathball. Nothings wrong with wanting the game to be more balanced, SC2 was not developed like brood war (sadly) otherwise we would in fact see the developers not continually nerfing stuff they deem as "OP." We would actually see blizzard BUFFING things to be OP for each race just like things are in brood war, which actually made the game end up completely balanced. Just think back, defilers with dark swarm, irradiate, carriers, siege tanks, spider mines...all of these were technically "imbalanced" in brood war yet every race had such good things at their disposal you could overcome each thing with other things. In SC2, a lot of the problem is you're forced into making "counter units" because of the hard counter system. Anyways, this is all old news from the beta, blizzard did not decide to make the game as good as brood war, so we have to be happy with what we have and hope that they do continue to keep working on balance, not pretend that the game is rainbows and sunshine because it is not yet. edit: And yes, just as a guy above me pointed out, you OP have to deal with the fact that in just only 2-3 weeks or less of SC2 play, the best starcraft 1 player has already stumbled upon the fact that TvP lategame is not balanced. It's been like this for months and it took the best SC1 player 2 weeks to figure it out and call blizzard out on it. It's up to blizzard now.
You just earned a quote for beeing awesome. Thank you man. :D
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"less qq, more pewpew"
You sir should be the president of something, this quote is awesome :D
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The easier way to "balance" the game is to have a tournament format where it's different match ups for each match and the person who wins the most of those is the winner. That would be implausible though with 9 games per match, but at least it'd be balanced.
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You got it all wrong about the "imba" mindset being a bad one.
It can be bad to blame everything on balance, but in reality that is what you do anyway... your unconscious WILL blame everything on balance if it sees it as an option to defend "you" from your own mistakes... it tends to do that and you can't stop it, if we could than the world would be a better place and A LOT of bad things could be avoided.
Now going against your unconscious... aka being conscious is something you always do in real life, it keeps your from beating or swearing at people you don't agree with and from staring at "that one girl with huge boobs" for 20 minutes.
Is it good that we do it ? Some would say it is... its certainly required for us to live in the human society.
But does it make you sleep better at night ? That is arguable... many would say that is better to agree with your unconscious about small things that don't matter... even if they are wrong, just to fell a little bit better about yourself.
The mindset might harm you at some point, there are surely pros that were harmed by it... but than again, if they were frustrated with themselves while playing the game and not with the game they might have never reached the level of pros.
There are other pros, Idra being a good example, where it seems that the mindset helps them and even more so generates there fanbase.
So yeah, making a balance thread on TL might not be a good thing... since nothing will come out of it BUT saying to yourself " I lost cuz X is OP" doesn't have to be a bad thing as long as you don't blame everything on balance and thus not improve anymore.
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On May 14 2012 14:36 Aterons_toss wrote:many would say that is better to agree with your unconscious about small things that don't matter... even if they are wrong, just to fell a little bit better about yourself.
The problem then is that if you're always willing to make small concessions to yourself to feel better, it can inhibit your ability to improve. I think it's much better to learn to accept your failures without feeling too bad, rather than spending time making up excuses. If you can avoid looking at your losses as a personal reflection of yourself but instead as just an isolated incident, then you won't need to try and make yourself feel good by shifting blame around.
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I think we should remind ourselves of Fruitdealer, when he won the very first GSL in a time when Zerg was thought to be very very weak
I agree very much with the OP though
When I watch streams and look at the chat, theres always some sorta balance whining going on and all I can think is "why not just enjoy the game for what it is? As much as winning is important, its not the ONLY aspect of this game there is to enjoy." Crying about "imbalance" obviously isnt going to help you out, so might as well find a way to overcome obstacles (other than depending on Blizzard) or enjoying the game for what it is
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people like to complain and there is nothing else to say.
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Still think everyone on ladder should be forced to play random with their race announced, then people would realize that playing other races isn't just a-moving and there would be way less whining.
It does make me angry when so many people never give protoss pros any credit. The races are designed differently but protoss pros work just as hard and too many people who you don't play the race don't appreciate how difficult some of what they do is to pull off and just say a bunch of stupid bullshit like 'Protoss EZ A-move etc'.
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I think it is something we don't understand about the Koreans. They always say their race is underpowered in these kinda interviews. I don't know why they do it, but they always do.
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is this thread necessary?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Is it wrong to state what they think is inbalanced now? We gonna start a pitchfork on everyone who complains about balance?
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Pitchfork is already started when complains about balance arise. I'm not saying we should accept everything, but there's so little solid threads with solid data and analysis, that basically when it comes to discussing the balance everyone just throws their own subjective thoughts instead sticking to facts and numbers. And I don't think we should stay passive about balance until all expansions are out, because most probably then it'll too late to expect changes in the balance. Discuss balance, but do it reasonably with all required data and in-depth analysis of situation - games, statistics, possible solutions (with consequences in each matchup).
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99% of the people posting in this topic have never lost a game of Sc2 due to imbalance.
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some folk just like to talk balance, for them its fun. though they wouldnt admit it.
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On May 14 2012 18:30 Witten wrote:
99% of the people posting in this topic have never lost a game of Sc2 due to imbalance.
There's no such thing as "losing to imbalance".. you lose because he killed you.
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EPT
