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I read the Flash interview transcript with some disappointment. When asked what difficulties he had so far encountered, he said he thought the game was not balanced. If any outsider (someone who has not played SC2 and has a fresh perspective) has the credit to make a statement on the balance of the game, it would be Flash. But is it right to label balance as a “difficulty” that he had been encountering?
Many things can be fixed. We can always improve our macro, map awareness, force fields, stutter step, larva injects, etc. Yet, most people insist on ignoring these aspects that they have control over and focus instead on aspects they do not. You almost always see someone ragequit a game with “wtf toss 4gate so op”, and never “wtf why did I forget to scout”.
My point here is that we have everything to gain and nothing to lose, if we forget about balance and just fucking play the game.
One of my friends, who is high masters and ladders about 50 games a day, plays Zerg and constantly complains (albeit humorously) about how Terran and Protoss are OP. I asked him, why don’t you switch to Terran so that you can win more? He says, I like Zerg, it’s more fun to play, I’ve been playing Zerg since BW and don’t want to switch.
In fact, every one of you reading this right now, ask yourself the following question. Which race do you think is most OP? Why don’t you switch to that race so that you can win more? Isn’t winning nice? And you will find yourself answering, I think my race has cooler units. I think it’s more fun to play my race. I like professional gamer X who plays my race. I’ve been playing P/T/Z for a long time and don’t want to switch.
Everyone feels an allegiance to their own race. That’s why there are so many balance whines in the first place. Everyone wants their own race to be more powerful. It sucks to feel like you’re playing a race that gets dominated by another race X. There are three options to get rid of this crappy feeling. You can 1) switch to a more powerful race, 2) qq and hope Blizzard buffs your race / nerfs someone else, or 3) look for some undiscovered tactic or strategy that can crush whatever you think is imba. When Boxer started playing BW, everyone thought Terran was underpowered. He responded by innovating and creating new tactics such as his signature high ground siege tank drop. And he didn’t turn out so bad did he?
Starcraft 2 has been out for less than two years. Think about how many years passed before the Brood War metagame became stabilized. We still have a long way to go. By complaining about balance, we’re not helping our own cause at all, which is playing the game because we enjoy doing so. I remember an incident during a high school varsity volleyball game, where our team was losing points because of a crappy ref. Demoralized, we turned to our coach, who responded, “You guys play your game. I’ll deal with the ref.” This translates roughly into, “you guys play your game. Let the pros deal with Blizzard”.
I play Zerg and I approve this message.
tldr; less qq, more pewpew
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If only more people had this mindset..
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is awesome32274 Posts
I think Flash already has this mindset, else he would be throwing keyboards against the wall and not winning all the time in BW.
Take a PR interview on a league switch for what it is, nothing more.
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This sounds like a blog.
But yea I tell people this same thing all the time since I play random and I encourage anyone who hasn't tried random on the ladder to do so to get a better sense of game balance.
That said, Flash is a bit of a different example altogether because he's coming from Brood War. Which was a much better balanced game than SC2 is currently, so I can understand the frustration.
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I've considered long and hard to switch race, especially with the current state of matters (I play terran). But once you reach a certain level - I'm high master atm - it's quite an effort to switch race, and could be months work before you get the same feel for a new race that you have with your main race.
Also I continue playing in the hopes that blizzard are in the process of making things right. But it seems that every patch it just gets worse :\.
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On May 12 2012 05:02 IntoTheWow wrote:
I think Flash already has this mindset, else he would be throwing keyboards against the wall and not winning all the time in BW.
Take a PR interview on a league switch for what it is, nothing more.
This.
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I find it interesting that people always find their own race the weakest and it is always the other races that are OP, this just shows how limited and biased people can be. They want to believe that when they win, they did it because of how skilled they are, overcoming the odds stacked against them. It also gives them a nice convenient excuse when they lose, they get to blame it on balance instead of looking at their own mistakes. Ultimately it all comes down to the human ego. People that can't overcome their ego will always be prevented from achieving their true potential.
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Flash is a bonjwa. He is just having fun and answering questions.
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On May 12 2012 05:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
But yea I tell people this same thing all the time since I play random and I encourage anyone who hasn't tried random on the ladder to do so to get a better sense of game balance.
Yeah, as a random player, you really get a sense of perspective. Instead of "zerg sucks", it becomes "I suck at zerg".
Can you imagine Garry Kasparov whining about how chess is imbalanced because black sucks? If your race sucks, then either learn to deal with it, or play a different race. Even at the top level, there have been plenty of players who've switched race with great success. As long as every race is well-represented at every skill level, by definition there is no balance problem.
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People don't switch races because re-learning 90% of what they know is extremely daunting, especially for players who have stuck to one race for a long time
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Good post OP, and like so many others already said, the article was for PR.
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It's incredible how widespread this belief is, yet it always seems like the person presenting it seems to think they're breaking new ground.
Right off the bat I want to just squash this notion of "well if _____ is so overpowered, why don't you switch?" This bothers me to no end everytime somebody suggests it because it makes no sense in the context of the game we're playing. Each race plays vastly different and supports vastly different playstyles. I will never play protoss in a serious way. Ever. Not because I think they're the weakest, but just because it seems incredibly boring.
That being said, balance is a problem. Just because you always have a plethora of things you can improve upon doesn't mean that one of the things holding you back isn't balance. It's not even necessarily which race is overpowered or underpowered in general, it could be a certain unit composition in relation to your playstyle or it could be the learning curve in executing a strategy in comparison to how effective it is. I read a poll recently (don't remember where, sorry) that basically said 60% of zergs say their worst matchup is zvp... and oh by the way, 60% of protoss say pvz is their worst matchup. That isn't because zerg is OP in zvp AND protoss is OP in pvz. It means certain strategies on both sides are really really hard to deal with. The answer isn't for protoss players who die to 12 min roach max to switch to zerg and for zergs who die to 6 gate robo or any other 2 base timing to switch to protoss.
The thing about SC2 is the very way it's designed, at its core, is going to make it extremely hard to balance. It's so much more about strategy and sneakiness than it is about "skill-based" factors like mechanics. Also the units are just so much stronger and easier to get without much "economy management" involved.
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On May 12 2012 05:03 Bulugulu wrote:
I've considered long and hard to switch race, especially with the current state of matters (I play terran). But once you reach a certain level - I'm high master atm - it's quite an effort to switch race, and could be months work before you get the same feel for a new race that you have with your main race.
It's certainly no secret that Terran takes the most skill of any of the three races. What I don't understand is why you would throw that away just to make it easier on yourself with another race?
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On May 12 2012 05:15 SolidMoose wrote:
People don't switch races because re-learning 90% of what they know is extremely daunting, especially for players who have stuck to one race for a long time
People need to off-race more. Not necessarily to prepare for potential race switches, but to get some perspective so we can stop hearing opinions like "your race is so easy".
Can you imagine this situation happening in any other sport? Can you imagine a striker in soccer saying "goalies have it so easy, they can use their hands, fix the imba plz"?
On May 12 2012 05:21 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:14 pirsq wrote:
Can you imagine Garry Kasparov whining about how chess is imbalanced because black sucks? That's not a proper analogy to starcraft. No race is supposed to be statistically weaker than others. It would be a fair analogy if everyone was forced to play random in sc2.
Okay, fair call. But I'd support forcing everyone to play random =)
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I don't think the game is ever gonna be balanced until legacy of the void is out with the new units they create to deal with hots imbalances. Until then, people should not worry about balance so much and just play and have fun, and try to come up with new ideas to deal with things. Example, late game TvP, protoss is super strong, even imba. So as a Terran player we must do a ton of damage or kill before they get to this stage.
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I think it's well established that most of the balance whining is just excuses for your own failure. It won't disappear as long as there are people who look for outside reasons for their own inadequacy.
And balance whining is always louder and more obvious than not whining. Say, you don't think the game is too imbalanced or you don't really care. How much time are you going to spend arguing your position? Contrast that to someone who wants to prove to himself that he only lost because his race is underpowered.
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Aren't you pretending as well?
Flash: I could be pretending as well or I might not be. It's true that I'm lacking in skills at the moment though.
- subtle hint that Flash might be trolling us a little bit in this interview.  Don't take all 100% serious.
Which race OP? Answer always the same: My race, so I play it!
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I too thought it was a bit rich of Flash who has been playing the game for 5 minutes.
People whine about balance through self-interest, bandwagonism, fanboyism, frustration at their own abilities, "passion", there are plenty of silly reasons. I'm not naive enough to think there is never a balance issue but whining so hard about it has far less affect on changes than people think and it just makes most people look stupid really.
Dunno, random player here too, obviously pros get a more "legitimate" say in balance discussion but then again they are the most likely to complain out of self interest and their words have more weight so that always makes me sceptical.
At the end of the day it's human nature, most people who complain about balance are still able to hold rational conversations and are perfectly decent people who can enjoy the game anyway so I wouldn't worry about it. Those that are beyond help just never learned to think critically and view things from other perspectives than their own and are therefore probably idiots.
Long story short, yes you are right, but it's not such a big issue and part of Starcraft for plenty of reasonable people.
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The old "Lets accept things the way they are" approach. I'm sorry but if the world worked like that we would still be cavemen, Everyone wants a fun and exiting game, they don't want their race to be overpowered, they just perceive their race as the weakest. Its the perception that matters, frankly if you perceive your race to be balanced, it is most probably overpowered.
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Starcraft 2 is not static, if you balance something a few weeks later someone will come with somethign that fills the previous spot.
Terrans complain that they have no more options early game. 90% of the TvZs were reactor hellion expand, that tells me that reactor hellion expand is actually very good, really really good.
Now its slitghly less good, as zergs can counter it more effectively, its not like it simply vanished and its shit that will cause you to lose if you do it, its still good. And good is OK.
Dont even need to point out the 111, right?
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On May 12 2012 05:19 Holophonist wrote:
Right off the bat I want to just squash this notion of "well if _____ is so overpowered, why don't you switch?" This bothers me to no end everytime somebody suggests it because it makes no sense in the context of the game we're playing. Each race plays vastly different and supports vastly different playstyles. I will never play protoss in a serious way. Ever. Not because I think they're the weakest, but just because it seems incredibly boring.
The idea is not that any specific player should switch races, but the fact that anyone can switch races. If a race is significantly overpowered, we ought to see a massive imbalance in terms of player population at competitive levels. Since we don't really see that, the conclusion is that no race is significantly overpowered.
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So just be the next BoxeR. Got it! 
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sounds bloggy
dont take what flash said too seriously hes just starting out
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the game will also be imbalanced you must play to your race's strengths and work on your weakness's
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Flash just started on SC2 and hasn't even locked in a main race yet, not to mention the interview reads quite a bit like he's having fun and joking around.
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Koreans are an imba race in sc2...
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That's what i did. Played all the races and chose the one that i think will be the strongest in my hands, so no reason to complain if you have free choice.
Game with so many factors will never be balanced on other than statistical level.
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When you're making your living off of a video game like Flash or any other progamer for that matter, balance does matter. Losing a match that's worth 20,000 USD because your opponent abused something that is imbalanced isn't fun. Flash is probably stressed as hell because he's worried about his future.
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I think Flash is simply setting expectations.
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On May 12 2012 05:52 Kluey wrote:
When you're making your living off of a video game like Flash or any other progamer for that matter, balance does matter. Losing a match that's worth 20,000 USD because your opponent abused something that is imbalanced isn't fun. Flash is probably stressed as hell because he's worried about his future.
You don't lose games, because of something that your opponent did. Terrans do fine in tournaments atm, why would he be worried?
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People say that Flash should not "whine" (actually he doesn't and didn't whine ever) cause he is not a high level player.....but the high level SC2 terrans are actually complaining a lot, not only in the foreign scene but also in Korea................also every other Terran is complaining.......that is a pretty big part of our community. The amount of Terrrans complaining about the current meta and balance is actually completely freaking insanely huge. It is sad to see their community brothers just shrugging it offff and telling them to adapt and get good at the game.
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On May 12 2012 05:58 -Kira wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:52 Kluey wrote:
When you're making your living off of a video game like Flash or any other progamer for that matter, balance does matter. Losing a match that's worth 20,000 USD because your opponent abused something that is imbalanced isn't fun. Flash is probably stressed as hell because he's worried about his future. You don't lose games, because of something that your opponent did. Terrans do fine in tournaments atm, why would he be worried?
Terrans do fine because the best Koreans aren't playing Protoss at the moment.
Parting: Best PvT in world, Former eSTRO B teamer
MVP: Best Terran in world, Former BW A Teamer
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On May 12 2012 06:20 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:58 -Kira wrote:On May 12 2012 05:52 Kluey wrote:
When you're making your living off of a video game like Flash or any other progamer for that matter, balance does matter. Losing a match that's worth 20,000 USD because your opponent abused something that is imbalanced isn't fun. Flash is probably stressed as hell because he's worried about his future. You don't lose games, because of something that your opponent did. Terrans do fine in tournaments atm, why would he be worried? Terrans do fine because the best Koreans aren't playing Protoss at the moment. Parting: Best PvT in world, Former eSTRO B teamer MVP: Best Terran in world, Former BW A Teamer
Flash: master league, best sc:bw player.
Sc1 skill does not equall sc2 skill.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:23 -Kira wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:20 Tump wrote:On May 12 2012 05:58 -Kira wrote:On May 12 2012 05:52 Kluey wrote:
When you're making your living off of a video game like Flash or any other progamer for that matter, balance does matter. Losing a match that's worth 20,000 USD because your opponent abused something that is imbalanced isn't fun. Flash is probably stressed as hell because he's worried about his future. You don't lose games, because of something that your opponent did. Terrans do fine in tournaments atm, why would he be worried? Terrans do fine because the best Koreans aren't playing Protoss at the moment. Parting: Best PvT in world, Former eSTRO B teamer MVP: Best Terran in world, Former BW A Teamer Flash: master league, best sc:bw player. Sc1 skill does not equall sc2 skill.
A bad example since Flash has barely played SC2 full-time.
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On May 12 2012 06:26 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:23 -Kira wrote:On May 12 2012 06:20 Tump wrote:On May 12 2012 05:58 -Kira wrote:On May 12 2012 05:52 Kluey wrote:
When you're making your living off of a video game like Flash or any other progamer for that matter, balance does matter. Losing a match that's worth 20,000 USD because your opponent abused something that is imbalanced isn't fun. Flash is probably stressed as hell because he's worried about his future. You don't lose games, because of something that your opponent did. Terrans do fine in tournaments atm, why would he be worried? Terrans do fine because the best Koreans aren't playing Protoss at the moment. Parting: Best PvT in world, Former eSTRO B teamer MVP: Best Terran in world, Former BW A Teamer Flash: master league, best sc:bw player. Sc1 skill does not equall sc2 skill. A bad example since Flash has barely played SC2 full-time.
And other players have had diffirent conditions and approach to training before, there was enaugh time to catch up in skill, some were younger, some of them didn't play sc:bw. You can't know how a player would do as other race in competitive play untill he actually does it.
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Hey look, my hat fell into the ring. Whoops.
Yes, certain races are OP, but only within the current meta. You think BW wasn't back and forth for years? It's only so balanced because it's been out so long and there are viable counters to everything. There are still thousands of creative ways to beat annoying strategies just waiting for people to figure them out. PvZ, for example, is just now shifting to favor Zerg. For the longest time it was a Protoss-favored matchup and Zergs cried imba. But lo and behold, the balance has shifted with no buffs or nerfs.
Have some more faith in the community's creativity, guys. Stop pressuring Blizzard when you should be pressuring yourself to figure out a way to beat x strategy.
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On May 12 2012 06:23 -Kira wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:20 Tump wrote:On May 12 2012 05:58 -Kira wrote:On May 12 2012 05:52 Kluey wrote:
When you're making your living off of a video game like Flash or any other progamer for that matter, balance does matter. Losing a match that's worth 20,000 USD because your opponent abused something that is imbalanced isn't fun. Flash is probably stressed as hell because he's worried about his future. You don't lose games, because of something that your opponent did. Terrans do fine in tournaments atm, why would he be worried? Terrans do fine because the best Koreans aren't playing Protoss at the moment. Parting: Best PvT in world, Former eSTRO B teamer MVP: Best Terran in world, Former BW A Teamer Flash: master league, best sc:bw player. Sc1 skill does not equall sc2 skill.
MVP is the best player to come over from BW that has had enough time to practice the game. Flash just started playing, and he's phenomenal already. How does SC1 skill not equal SC2 skill? Pretty sure you just proved my point.
Whatever, enjoy eating your words in the near future. 
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On May 12 2012 06:33 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:23 -Kira wrote:On May 12 2012 06:20 Tump wrote:On May 12 2012 05:58 -Kira wrote:On May 12 2012 05:52 Kluey wrote:
When you're making your living off of a video game like Flash or any other progamer for that matter, balance does matter. Losing a match that's worth 20,000 USD because your opponent abused something that is imbalanced isn't fun. Flash is probably stressed as hell because he's worried about his future. You don't lose games, because of something that your opponent did. Terrans do fine in tournaments atm, why would he be worried? Terrans do fine because the best Koreans aren't playing Protoss at the moment. Parting: Best PvT in world, Former eSTRO B teamer MVP: Best Terran in world, Former BW A Teamer Flash: master league, best sc:bw player. Sc1 skill does not equall sc2 skill. MVP is the best player to come over from BW that has had enough time to practice the game. Flash just started playing, and he's phenomenal already. How does SC1 skill not equal SC2 skill? Pretty sure you just proved my point. Whatever, enjoy eating your words in the near future.
Right. "Phenomenal". When you haven't even seen him play a single game yet.
Or do you mean reaching Masters league? Because that's not a big deal. Didn't Aphrodite hit Master's League as her first placement?
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I think Terrans are having a very tough time against Protoss at the moment and I do hope that Blizzard does something to late game TvP. But it is also a chance to to force innovation for terrans. If it isnt broken dont fix it, now that the matchup is broken I hope to see some new plays by terrans.
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I like to think I have the mentality the OP describes when I am laddering. I glhf and gg all over the damn place, but in my heart I still think some shit is wack, like how my beloved Terran has been nerfed so consistently.
So, I come to TL and read or post my complaints. Isn't that what a forum is for? It's either coming out here in a post or as BM in-game.
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On May 12 2012 05:33 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:19 Holophonist wrote:
Right off the bat I want to just squash this notion of "well if _____ is so overpowered, why don't you switch?" This bothers me to no end everytime somebody suggests it because it makes no sense in the context of the game we're playing. Each race plays vastly different and supports vastly different playstyles. I will never play protoss in a serious way. Ever. Not because I think they're the weakest, but just because it seems incredibly boring. The idea is not that any specific player should switch races, but the fact that anyone can switch races. If a race is significantly overpowered, we ought to see a massive imbalance in terms of player population at competitive levels. Since we don't really see that, the conclusion is that no race is significantly overpowered.
That's the conclusion you draw? You realize that it's not that easy to switch races? And that there were actually periods of time in GSL where the population was massivly skewed to one race..
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
When Boxer started playing BW, everyone thought Terran was underpowered. He responded by innovating and creating new tactics such as his signature high ground siege tank drop. And he didn’t turn out so bad did he?
Starcraft 2 has been out for less than two years. Think about how many years passed before the Brood War metagame became stabilized. We still have a long way to go. By complaining about balance, we’re not helping our own cause at all, which is playing the game because we enjoy doing so.
You ignore the fact that BW and WC3 exist. Yes it took quite a long time to figure out BW (I dont know anything about WC3). New maps every season were one reason and will keep SC2 interesting, too.
Yet SC2 isnt a whole new game with a unique gameplay. It's a sequel and an ordinary RTS game, and although it has a unique style: it still just a RTS. And the people playing it at the pro level have been pro gamers for years, they are not complete noobs who try to learn how to fly an airplane. They are former professional RTS players playing another RTS.
With all the knowledge, training routines, mechanical skills they adopted when playing WC3/BW.
So it will take them considerably less time to figure out Sc2 than BW or WC3, because they dont have to start from scratch. Each one of them will play a couple of thousands games a year, what do you think will they not be able to figure out anytime soon? in BW the last big metagame change has been, I dont know actually. FFE in pvz by bisu 2006?
So I dont really understand your point. When several pro gamers say "there is an imbalance" it is absolutely reasonable to assume that there is in fact an imbalance. That doesnt mean that they dont try different builds or timings. t.t
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On May 12 2012 05:33 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:19 Holophonist wrote:
Right off the bat I want to just squash this notion of "well if _____ is so overpowered, why don't you switch?" This bothers me to no end everytime somebody suggests it because it makes no sense in the context of the game we're playing. Each race plays vastly different and supports vastly different playstyles. I will never play protoss in a serious way. Ever. Not because I think they're the weakest, but just because it seems incredibly boring. The idea is not that any specific player should switch races, but the fact that anyone can switch races. If a race is significantly overpowered, we ought to see a massive imbalance in terms of player population at competitive levels. Since we don't really see that, the conclusion is that no race is significantly overpowered.
Saying a race is imbalanced isn't the same as saying a race is massively imbalanced. I doubt the races are perfectly represented at the pro level. And besides, the fact that each race plays differently doesn't just mean that I, a loser nobody in diamond, doesn't want to play protoss because it's not as fun... it also means that each race is conducive to certain play styles and certain human personalities. So the stephano zvp style is good for stephano, it may not be good for, say, bomber.
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I don't even fully understand what the point of this thread is if it can just be summed up by "more pew pew, less qq."
Flash hasn't even played this game that long and it's STILL changing. I would value any platinum league player's opinion over his at this point. There isn't really any point to be mentioning whether we should discuss the balance of something or not. It's up to the individual. If you feel that something is imbalanced there isn't any point in saying "no don't express that, go play." Ultimately that is the better solution, but there is not point in strangling people in what they choose to express.
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I wish Blizzard would take their hands off the game and let it evolve like BW. Seriously theres been infinity more balance patches in SC2 than BW. Why are they playing God when they don't even know what they're doing?
goawayplz david kim
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On May 12 2012 07:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
I wish Blizzard would take their hands off the game and let it evolve like BW. Seriously theres been infinity more balance patches in SC2 than BW. Why are they playing God when they don't even know what they're doing?
goawayplz david kim
I agree with the fact that Blizzard seriously needs to take a hands-off approach. Sad thing is they do listen and base their nerf/buffs based on how loud the whiners speak. I'm both a Zerg and protoss player and I clearly remember when zerg whined a LOT post-beta and were constantly getting buffed and P/T constantly nerfed for 7-10 consecutive patches. Then Protoss started to whine post-buffed infestors and suddenly patches start getting geared towards buffing them and nerfing the rest.
Blizzard needs to do less balance patches unless absolutely critical (ex: reapers tvz balance issue)
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Except there are very few Terrans on ladder because they HAVE switched.
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Well, zerg and toss have gotten buffs after they cried so much. Meanwhile they keep shafting terran every patch. They should just stop trying to balance things until HotS
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good post, but should def be in the blogs.
and i agree people need to stop whining about balance and just use their brain for once. after all it is a strategy game.
too bad its much easier to QQ than pew pew.
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On May 12 2012 07:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
I wish Blizzard would take their hands off the game and let it evolve like BW. Seriously theres been infinity more balance patches in SC2 than BW. Why are they playing God when they don't even know what they're doing?
goawayplz david kim
Bingo.
Aside from obvious changes like the reaper nerf (similar to the spawning pool change in BW in terms of how it impacted the game), they WAY overpatch.
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On May 12 2012 05:03 Bulugulu wrote:
I've considered long and hard to switch race, especially with the current state of matters (I play terran). But once you reach a certain level - I'm high master atm - it's quite an effort to switch race, and could be months work before you get the same feel for a new race that you have with your main race.
Also I continue playing in the hopes that blizzard are in the process of making things right. But it seems that every patch it just gets worse :\.
Same. I'd actually considered switching many times but just feel like I would be wasting a lot of time just learning the basic mechanics and all the little nuances that go with each race. I would go from mid masters to maybe low diamond and it could take a long time before the switch pays off.
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I believe real balance will be achieved in star2 only when new micro tricks are discovered, moving shots, patrol attacks, stackings and so on.
this will allow inferior squads to face superior forces and via this, units will gain new roles, at the moment blizzard removed on purpose the moving shots f.e and implemented on purpose acceleration/decceleration attacks for flyings units, and only a few ground units can dance, by moving and shooting~ they did it because they didnt want the casuals to feel bad by being bad mechanically, but it is inevitable, cattering too much for a public that does not enjoy difficulty only hurts the e-sports, and in the long run it will be the people who enjoy the esports who will keep this game alive
these features allowed not only greater watchability but artificial balance, via player's mechanical skills
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It's hard for me to tell if there has been to much patch changing or too little. Part of me think that a lot of people are just counting the buffs and saying its unfair that one race has more than another. The other part of me says that some races needed more buffs to be in the ball park of balance. Looking back on things I can't say that the Reaper or the Tank nerf was unwarranted, and as much as I hate to see certain strategies basically get removed I also hate seeing anything that makes it ridiculously easy for one race or another to win with easily executed strategies.
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I think certain abilities will spiral out of control when people get better (storm with smartcast, forcefields, fungal...), but right now I think there are more design issues than balance issues, and balancing should be done trough maps. I look forward to 2013 when we realize that the current mappool is godawful.
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I agree to some extent, and I think its productive for the sub-master's guys to universally accept this mentality. However, some of the balance decisions are made with community feedback/testing. If nobody whined about anything, we'd still be playing steppes of war, scrap station, and kulas.
Balancing through maps seems to be the way to go though. The game mechanics are mostly there now.
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On May 12 2012 07:08 Holophonist wrote:
Saying a race is imbalanced isn't the same as saying a race is massively imbalanced. I doubt the races are perfectly represented at the pro level. And besides, the fact that each race plays differently doesn't just mean that I, a loser nobody in diamond, doesn't want to play protoss because it's not as fun... it also means that each race is conducive to certain play styles and certain human personalities. So the stephano zvp style is good for stephano, it may not be good for, say, bomber.
I want to modify your emphasis slightly: each race is conducive to multiple playstyles. In this regard, it really doesn't make sense to compare zerg to terran, for example. Are we talking about Losira's zerg, which is incredibly weak to bunker rushes? Or Fruitdealer's zerg, which almost never loses to that stuff? Or whoever happens to be the best zerg in the world at the time? Or perhaps some sort of average over all zergs?
The average is the only one that makes sense, but how do we construct such an average, and how do we measure success? Tournament winrates suffer massive selection bias - people who win play more games. Ladder winrates are designed to converge to 50%. The only sensible measure, as far as I can tell, is population size at various competitive levels. Whether it's players switching races, or if you find that objectionable, players dropping out to be replaced with new players of different races, by far the best indicator of balance is having a balanced race distribution at the competitive level.
But what about racial imbalance in the GSL? It used to be extremely terran dominated, but right now the top is full of protosses (4/8 and 5/8 of the quarterfinals in the last two seasons). There have never been many zergs right at the top, which might make a case for zerg being underpowered, but remember that by only looking at the top 8 players in the competition, we're restricting ourselves to the outliers, which is a terrible way to do statistics. A more reliable measure would be the distribution of players coming through the Code A qualifiers - in the past five seasons, they've been (T/Z/P) 7-7-7, 5-9-6, 5-7-9, 2-5-5, 8-3-2. Looks pretty balanced to me.
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While I do agree with the OP...
"Why don't you switch to the overpowered race?"
Because that doesn't help the game at all -.-
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On May 12 2012 07:59 KareKano wrote:
I believe real balance will be achieved in star2 only when new micro tricks are discovered, moving shots, patrol attacks, stackings and so on.
[...]
The feeling that I get with Sc2 is that Blizzard is sadly hindering the potential for units to be microed.
Playing protoss, mainly two units come to my mind. The carrier for example does not focus another unit after being pulled back, making it only a "functional" unit when it sits stationary within 6 range of the target. The replacement for the carrier Blizzard was going to put in was even more boring (judging from the video they had of it). Another example would be the colossus which in comparison to the reaver in BW, which fulfills a similar role, is much less demanding when it comes to micro.
I fear that Blizzard is limiting the possibilities on purpose, even though I would not understand the reasoning behind that. Of course they want to make the game appealing to all kinds of gamers, but adding more depth to units would not hurt lower level players.
I might also be wrong on this, as I'm rather terrible at the game and have a lacking understanding of it. Still I think that Blizzard should not do something about balance in terms of numbers, but in terms of giving the players the chance to balance the game through their own mechanics. Instead of changing races, the solution would be to gain better mechanics. If the game is more demanding in terms of skill it would also enhance it as from a spectator's position.
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If there's one thing I've learned listening to proplayers talk about balance is that whatever race they play have a disadvantage in one matchup or the other, no matter what race they play.
When people start talking about how certain aspects of their own race is "a little bit strong", that's when start to listen.
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On May 12 2012 08:21 Xpace wrote:
"Why don't you switch to the overpowered race?"
Because that doesn't help the game at all -.-
I agree that it's a bit rude to say that to someone, but I think it is a valid response. If someone says "I play X, I think Y is overpowered", what exactly does he mean by that? Does he mean that he loses to Y disproportionately often? In that case, it's not a balance issue, it's just that he's not as good at that matchup. Or does he mean that if he used race Y, he would be able to beat more people than he does now? In this case, suggesting he change race is a very reasonable response.
On an individual level, you cannot reasonably compare race X to race Y unless it's the same player playing. And once it's the same player playing, saying "my race sucks" is really just saying "I chose not to play the race that I would have been best at". In which case, switch to the race that you would be best at.
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I don't know about balance, but I think it would be cool if mech was a somewhat common long-term strat in TvP, and saw a bit more play.
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There's soooo much more to "balance" than just whether or not a given unit/race/timing is super hard to deal with. The idea of the game being imbalanced can also include things like learning curve.
I'll leave zerg out of it for now simply because I PLAY zerg and anything I say will probably be discarded. That being said, you don't see a lot of terrans at like the platinum, diamond, low masters level (on the NA ladder at least), probably because of a sharp turn in the learning curve at that given skill level. However, you see terran performing well at the highest levels because of all of the potential inherent in the race (the plethora of different openings in all matchups and the potential to micro each individual unit whereas zerg and protoss micro seems to have a lower ceiling).
I'm pretty sure that's where a LOT of the balance complaining comes from.
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It is rather amusing to note that every other post is a Zerg or Protoss arguing how we should forget about balance and simply play the game when, not six months ago, these same players wre crying Terran op and supporting the snipe/emp nerf (which flash specifically addresses as being bad regardless of whether you think he is qualified to make that statement many other pros have echoed the opinion that the snipe nerf was too extreme and poorly execueted). Can you honestly say that the current strength chargelot/ht is good for TvP? can you claim it is good to have feedback counter every unit that comes out of the starport except for the viking? There is a reason no terran (pro or otherwise) is happy with TvP right now. Balance whine happens for reason other than simply wanting "your" race to be stronger.
As far as changes it would be so nice to have the raven seriously looked at; the unit is just short of being viable option in the lategame TvP and TvZ scenario's. It was the vessel that evened the playing field in BW and I doubt terran will feel comfortable in macro games till they have something akin to it back.
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This is actually really true, I switched races a few times, not because the race was imba, but I sucked at the race and it didn't fit my playstyle, or I just couldn't play it well with my level of skill.
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On May 12 2012 10:42 monkybone wrote:
There's no doubt about it, your argument doesn't work, some strategies/tactics simply own others, even though both are properly executed with approximately equal skill on an even playing table. The question becomes whether this is purely a metagame issue which can be overcome by a change of strategies or tactics, or if it transcends the current strategies and actually is an imbalance of the game itself which cannot be overcome in such a way.
Are we comparing strategies, or races? Certainly, some strategies beat others. But no race has a strategy that beats all the strategies of some other race, because then we'd see nothing but that strategy in that matchup.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
When Boxer started playing BW, everyone thought Terran was underpowered. He responded by innovating and creating new tactics such as his signature high ground siege tank drop. And he didn’t turn out so bad did he?
When I read Flash's comments, I thought of Savior's 3 Hatch Muta almost right away. However to prove your point about switching, it was stated at the Proleague media day that Flash was considering switching to Protoss, but decided to stay Terran because they have to straddle both games.
Honestly I read Flash's interview as mind games more than anything. Any edge you can get, take it.
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On May 12 2012 11:06 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:03 vesicular wrote:
Honestly I read Flash's interview as mind games more than anything. Any edge you can get, take it. It seems like that is something you just want to believe...
No, it's just what I would have done in his shoes.
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On May 12 2012 11:03 monkybone wrote:
But to what degree does no strategy beat another? I don't believe that at face value, there's for example no go-to strat for terran to beat a late game Protoss macroing up his deathball.
Do you mean at the top competitive level, or in casual play?
At the pro level, it doesn't look as clear-cut as you say. You can kill or cripple him before you get there, like MVP did a couple of days ago. And MarineKing has shown an ability to go toe-to-toe with Parting in the lategame. These are the two best players at their respective matchups, and below them, no protoss players looks particularly unbeatable in PvT.
At the casual level, people suck at unit control. Wait for the protoss to screw up his position, then go in and snipe his expensive units. If he doesn't screw up at all, then he's not a casual-level player. If he screwed up and you missed it, then you missed your chance.
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Something else that I think is related to this and I believe firmly:
You as a player get NOTHING out of doing balance worrying. The more energy you expend forming an opinion of what is too strong or too weak the less energy gets dumped into improving your play.
So what if the game WERE imbalanced OR balanced at the highest level? As long as I'm improving the late-game transitions of my FE into 3-rax play versus Protoss, I'm fine. What does it matter to me that Queens are much better against early Hellions now? Just a new challenge for me to improve my control and decision-making.
Given that we cannot control in any way what the balancing of the game is (the ultimate decision resting with Blizzard's employees), it makes no sense to complain, even in the hypothetical scenario that it IS crazy imbalanced. The brain learns most from a steep challenge. Treat it like a challenge and not a barrier and you'll get something positive out of it even when you're still losing to it. And then, if and when the balance patches happen, your skill jumps to a whole other level because you were already doing your best with imperfect tools.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
I read the Flash interview transcript with some disappointment. When asked what difficulties he had so far encountered, he said he thought the game was not balanced. If any outsider (someone who has not played SC2 and has a fresh perspective) has the credit to make a statement on the balance of the game, it would be Flash. But is it right to label balance as a “difficulty” that he had been encountering?
Many things can be fixed. We can always improve our macro, map awareness, force fields, stutter step, larva injects, etc. Yet, most people insist on ignoring these aspects that they have control over and focus instead on aspects they do not. You almost always see someone ragequit a game with “wtf toss 4gate so op”, and never “wtf why did I forget to scout”.
My point here is that we have everything to gain and nothing to lose, if we forget about balance and just fucking play the game.
One of my friends, who is high masters and ladders about 50 games a day, plays Zerg and constantly complains (albeit humorously) about how Terran and Protoss are OP. I asked him, why don’t you switch to Terran so that you can win more? He says, I like Zerg, it’s more fun to play, I’ve been playing Zerg since BW and don’t want to switch.
In fact, every one of you reading this right now, ask yourself the following question. Which race do you think is most OP? Why don’t you switch to that race so that you can win more? Isn’t winning nice? And you will find yourself answering, I think my race has cooler units. I think it’s more fun to play my race. I like professional gamer X who plays my race. I’ve been playing P/T/Z for a long time and don’t want to switch.
Everyone feels an allegiance to their own race. That’s why there are so many balance whines in the first place. Everyone wants their own race to be more powerful. It sucks to feel like you’re playing a race that gets dominated by another race X. There are three options to get rid of this crappy feeling. You can 1) switch to a more powerful race, 2) qq and hope Blizzard buffs your race / nerfs someone else, or 3) look for some undiscovered tactic or strategy that can crush whatever you think is imba. When Boxer started playing BW, everyone thought Terran was underpowered. He responded by innovating and creating new tactics such as his signature high ground siege tank drop. And he didn’t turn out so bad did he?
Starcraft 2 has been out for less than two years. Think about how many years passed before the Brood War metagame became stabilized. We still have a long way to go. By complaining about balance, we’re not helping our own cause at all, which is playing the game because we enjoy doing so. I remember an incident during a high school varsity volleyball game, where our team was losing points because of a crappy ref. Demoralized, we turned to our coach, who responded, “You guys play your game. I’ll deal with the ref.” This translates roughly into, “you guys play your game. Let the pros deal with Blizzard”.
I play Zerg and I approve this message.
tldr; less qq, more pewpew
Fundamentally stupid post.
Just one note - you can stop whining, you can start to improve your micro, macro, timings... whatever the hell you believe you can improve. But you will never be able to play mech against protoss. You will never be able to play Battle Cruisers, unless you are far far ahead your opponent. You will never be able to stop Protos from reinforcement with mass chargelots late game.
This is stupid approach by blizz to game balance in general. And you can't do anything with that, even if you improve yourself to death.
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protoss obviously need much less apm than other 2 races. thats why foreign protoss can do well. theres only a few competent zergs and terrans on the other hand.
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I play Random at a highish diamond level, and have been playing Random since the game released, and I feel that Terran is the OP race right now. It's not because I hate Terran - I actually love to play as Terran - but it's because I can objectively say that they have the most effective openings, the best quick-fix scouting and detection option (scanning), and the best scouting denial (wall that can be lowered and raised). All this, plus flying ranged DTs, and infantry that melts everything until Protoss can get out their AOE units. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but doesn't realize you don't ever really have to fight the deathball - just kite it and force a base race and you win.
All this, but I keep playing Random, because I paid $60 for Starcraft 2 when it released and want to get more than $20 worth of the game out of my investment. I don't want any race to be better than the others due to allegiances like the OP said - I just want a fair and balanced game.
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I think terran is the best race. I play terran :D So when people say "terran op" I say "yea that's why I play it, I like winning"
I don't know, maybe I'm in the small minority who likes playing games to win, and doesn't really care about how the game is set up. Sc2 balance is like politics essentially; you can bicker and try to change it, or you can just live life.
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On May 12 2012 11:57 ThePlayer33 wrote:
protoss obviously need much less apm than other 2 races. thats why foreign protoss can do well. theres only a few competent zergs and terrans on the other hand.
Yeah, I think foreign stats have shown that protoss is the easiest zerg second and terran hardest by far. I say this as a protoss player because it's obvious that while zerg and protoss require feats of percision like mc's ffs or zenio's amazing fungals v roaches, terran itself require far too much micro for even NA gms to be great at.
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On May 12 2012 05:08 Darkedge wrote:
I find it interesting that people always find their own race the weakest and it is always the other races that are OP, this just shows how limited and biased people can be. They want to believe that when they win, they did it because of how skilled they are, overcoming the odds stacked against them. It also gives them a nice convenient excuse when they lose, they get to blame it on balance instead of looking at their own mistakes. Ultimately it all comes down to the human ego. People that can't overcome their ego will always be prevented from achieving their true potential.
not always true,
i played zerg from release even though it was unanimous that they where the hardest race to play, up till about 2 months ago when zerg was dominating, i then played random for about a month and i saw terran as the weakest race, so i switched to it to learn and explore new unit compositions.
Like Mech in tvp.
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On May 12 2012 12:11 SnareSpectre wrote:
I play Random at a highish diamond level, and have been playing Random since the game released, and I feel that Terran is the OP race right now. It's not because I hate Terran - I actually love to play as Terran - but it's because I can objectively say that they have the most effective openings, the best quick-fix scouting and detection option (scanning), and the best scouting denial (wall that can be lowered and raised). All this, plus flying ranged DTs, and infantry that melts everything until Protoss can get out their AOE units. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but doesn't realize you don't ever really have to fight the deathball - just kite it and force a base race and you win.
All this, but I keep playing Random, because I paid $60 for Starcraft 2 when it released and want to get more than $20 worth of the game out of my investment. I don't want any race to be better than the others due to allegiances like the OP said - I just want a fair and balanced game.
you need to look into TvP Mech.
my personal way of doing it is
14cc into gas before rax
only stopping scv production for your CC
factory as soon as rax finish's and another refinery
and rushing straight into siege,
if they pressure you or all in you, use 2 bunkers, one at ramp 1 at CC and pull some scv's to defend.
expand as soon as safe using siege tanks and rines to defend, take expo's 2 gas's immediately and then when you have 400 gas banked, through down another 3 fac's, 2 as reactors, another tech lab, an armory and another CC and take your third.
go for hellion, thor production using your seige tanks that you bought earlier to support your army.
it's actually ridiculously good. i have no idea why people just dont do it.
the other way is a 1/1/1 opening with an expo into hellion thor banshee, using shee's to harrass, and once you secure your third you transition into seige tanks when you start trading and then ultimately transition into split map PF's, seige tanks, vikings hellions battle cruiser raven banshee.
never lost a game when i got to that point.
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i think its wrong to tell people to switch race because of how they think the game is balanced, every race appeals to a certain playstyle as the metagame is right now...
also balance whine should not be taken as seriously as it sounds, i think that whinning about balance is a sign that you care about this game, and feel frustrated about something being hard to deal with. Obviously some people whine about balance just to whine about balance, which is some of the stupidest to do since it mostly ruins it only for yourself.
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You should PM this to TT1 cause i think he doesn't get it.
But i agree, too many people complain without knowing the real reasons for their grievances, without proof, and without giving it any time.
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Your point is close, but I still feel it missed the mark. We shouldn't be concerned even with general balance. We should be most concerned with how fun the game is to watch and play, and how SC2 can specifically improve in those areas (it has lots of room to do so).
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On May 12 2012 12:44 Bodzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 12:11 SnareSpectre wrote:
I play Random at a highish diamond level, and have been playing Random since the game released, and I feel that Terran is the OP race right now. It's not because I hate Terran - I actually love to play as Terran - but it's because I can objectively say that they have the most effective openings, the best quick-fix scouting and detection option (scanning), and the best scouting denial (wall that can be lowered and raised). All this, plus flying ranged DTs, and infantry that melts everything until Protoss can get out their AOE units. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but doesn't realize you don't ever really have to fight the deathball - just kite it and force a base race and you win.
All this, but I keep playing Random, because I paid $60 for Starcraft 2 when it released and want to get more than $20 worth of the game out of my investment. I don't want any race to be better than the others due to allegiances like the OP said - I just want a fair and balanced game. you need to look into TvP Mech. my personal way of doing it is 14cc into gas before rax only stopping scv production for your CC factory as soon as rax finish's and another refinery and rushing straight into siege, if they pressure you or all in you, use 2 bunkers, one at ramp 1 at CC and pull some scv's to defend. expand as soon as safe using siege tanks and rines to defend, take expo's 2 gas's immediately and then when you have 400 gas banked, through down another 3 fac's, 2 as reactors, another tech lab, an armory and another CC and take your third. go for hellion, thor production using your seige tanks that you bought earlier to support your army. it's actually ridiculously good. i have no idea why people just dont do it. the other way is a 1/1/1 opening with an expo into hellion thor banshee, using shee's to harrass, and once you secure your third you transition into seige tanks when you start trading and then ultimately transition into split map PF's, seige tanks, vikings hellions battle cruiser raven banshee. never lost a game when i got to that point.
I would love to see some replays of this if you could. All I see these days is bio TvP. Also what league are you doing this in?
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I agree 110% with you sir.
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After I read his comments and then watched the replay he played against Desrow, it's clear the mindset he was in when he said that toss was overpowered. He is applying a Brood War mindset to the game, and a lot of how modern TvP is played especially in the mid to mid-late game features a lot of skills completely new to someone switching over from Brood War. It gets incredibly micro- and positioning-based in a way that his Brood War mind hasn't yet wrapped his head around. I interpreted his comments moreso to indicate that, to a Brood War skillset, Protoss has an overwhelming advantage against Terran. I think he's very right in that respect.
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Lol I hate when people tell others to switch race.
In warcraft 3 for example, undead players were crying about orc for years, and the orc players told them to switch race. Then it got to the point where all of the undead pros got sick of the game and all of them retired.
Some of the top undeads (lucifer) even played orc vs undead over undead vs undead because of how stupid the balance is.
Fact is, blizzard doesn't always make balanced games. Its up to the players to whine when the game is retarded, so that blizzard can patch it. If they decide not to patch it then we can move on to a different game.
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On May 14 2012 11:03 svi wrote:
Lol I hate when people tell others to switch race.
In warcraft 3 for example, undead players were crying about orc for years, and the orc players told them to switch race. Then it got to the point where all of the undead pros got sick of the game and all of them retired.
Some of the top undeads (lucifer) even played orc vs undead over undead vs undead because of how stupid the balance is.
Fact is, blizzard doesn't always make balanced games. Its up to the players to whine when the game is retarded, so that blizzard can patch it. If they decide not to patch it then we can move on to a different game.
I'm not knowledgeable about warcraft, but hasn't that matchup been commonly agreed to be bad for many years?
That's completely different from a situation like SC2, where it's been out for two years and every few months a new race is the strongest and everyone else whines.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
I read the Flash interview transcript with some disappointment. When asked what difficulties he had so far encountered, he said he thought the game was not balanced. If any outsider (someone who has not played SC2 and has a fresh perspective) has the credit to make a statement on the balance of the game, it would be Flash. But is it right to label balance as a “difficulty” that he had been encountering?
Many things can be fixed. We can always improve our macro, map awareness, force fields, stutter step, larva injects, etc. Yet, most people insist on ignoring these aspects that they have control over and focus instead on aspects they do not. You almost always see someone ragequit a game with “wtf toss 4gate so op”, and never “wtf why did I forget to scout”.
My point here is that we have everything to gain and nothing to lose, if we forget about balance and just fucking play the game.
One of my friends, who is high masters and ladders about 50 games a day, plays Zerg and constantly complains (albeit humorously) about how Terran and Protoss are OP. I asked him, why don’t you switch to Terran so that you can win more? He says, I like Zerg, it’s more fun to play, I’ve been playing Zerg since BW and don’t want to switch.
In fact, every one of you reading this right now, ask yourself the following question. Which race do you think is most OP? Why don’t you switch to that race so that you can win more? Isn’t winning nice? And you will find yourself answering, I think my race has cooler units. I think it’s more fun to play my race. I like professional gamer X who plays my race. I’ve been playing P/T/Z for a long time and don’t want to switch.
Everyone feels an allegiance to their own race. That’s why there are so many balance whines in the first place. Everyone wants their own race to be more powerful. It sucks to feel like you’re playing a race that gets dominated by another race X. There are three options to get rid of this crappy feeling. You can 1) switch to a more powerful race, 2) qq and hope Blizzard buffs your race / nerfs someone else, or 3) look for some undiscovered tactic or strategy that can crush whatever you think is imba. When Boxer started playing BW, everyone thought Terran was underpowered. He responded by innovating and creating new tactics such as his signature high ground siege tank drop. And he didn’t turn out so bad did he?
Starcraft 2 has been out for less than two years. Think about how many years passed before the Brood War metagame became stabilized. We still have a long way to go. By complaining about balance, we’re not helping our own cause at all, which is playing the game because we enjoy doing so. I remember an incident during a high school varsity volleyball game, where our team was losing points because of a crappy ref. Demoralized, we turned to our coach, who responded, “You guys play your game. I’ll deal with the ref.” This translates roughly into, “you guys play your game. Let the pros deal with Blizzard”.
I play Zerg and I approve this message.
tldr; less qq, more pewpew
Personally, I feel that Flash is entitled to his opinion. He was asked a question and he answered it honestly. It was an interview, not a thread he came on TL and made. So, with that in mind people should stop making a big deal about his comments and stop questioning the credibility of them because if anyone is qualified to make such a comment, it's Flash not you. I also feel that unless your a progamer, you shouldn't be whining about balance. Simply because your using it an excuse for your losses and lack of success. If you want to be a better player, scout more and prepare accordingly. A lot of people lose because of lack of scouting. (Directed at Terran) They would rather use mules all day and get rolled by an all in rather then use a couple of scans in the early game to see what their opponents tech.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
I read the Flash interview transcript with some disappointment. When asked what difficulties he had so far encountered, he said he thought the game was not balanced. If any outsider (someone who has not played SC2 and has a fresh perspective) has the credit to make a statement on the balance of the game, it would be Flash. But is it right to label balance as a “difficulty” that he had been encountering?
Many things can be fixed. We can always improve our macro, map awareness, force fields, stutter step, larva injects, etc. Yet, most people insist on ignoring these aspects that they have control over and focus instead on aspects they do not. You almost always see someone ragequit a game with “wtf toss 4gate so op”, and never “wtf why did I forget to scout”.
My point here is that we have everything to gain and nothing to lose, if we forget about balance and just fucking play the game.
One of my friends, who is high masters and ladders about 50 games a day, plays Zerg and constantly complains (albeit humorously) about how Terran and Protoss are OP. I asked him, why don’t you switch to Terran so that you can win more? He says, I like Zerg, it’s more fun to play, I’ve been playing Zerg since BW and don’t want to switch.
In fact, every one of you reading this right now, ask yourself the following question. Which race do you think is most OP? Why don’t you switch to that race so that you can win more? Isn’t winning nice? And you will find yourself answering, I think my race has cooler units. I think it’s more fun to play my race. I like professional gamer X who plays my race. I’ve been playing P/T/Z for a long time and don’t want to switch.
Everyone feels an allegiance to their own race. That’s why there are so many balance whines in the first place. Everyone wants their own race to be more powerful. It sucks to feel like you’re playing a race that gets dominated by another race X. There are three options to get rid of this crappy feeling. You can 1) switch to a more powerful race, 2) qq and hope Blizzard buffs your race / nerfs someone else, or 3) look for some undiscovered tactic or strategy that can crush whatever you think is imba. When Boxer started playing BW, everyone thought Terran was underpowered. He responded by innovating and creating new tactics such as his signature high ground siege tank drop. And he didn’t turn out so bad did he?
Starcraft 2 has been out for less than two years. Think about how many years passed before the Brood War metagame became stabilized. We still have a long way to go. By complaining about balance, we’re not helping our own cause at all, which is playing the game because we enjoy doing so. I remember an incident during a high school varsity volleyball game, where our team was losing points because of a crappy ref. Demoralized, we turned to our coach, who responded, “You guys play your game. I’ll deal with the ref.” This translates roughly into, “you guys play your game. Let the pros deal with Blizzard”.
I play Zerg and I approve this message.
tldr; less qq, more pewpew
A decent protoss will never let a terran scout what they are building. Even if its a 1gate expo or some kind of early cheesy dt push. The terran can and will scan the main if he does not know what the protoss is doing. So the protoss can hide their tech anywhere on the map. Also you can just keep stalkers searching around for any hidden scv's for re-scouting the toss base. Im not trying to complain about balance but im just pointing out that what you said was kind of wrong because a terran should theoretically never be allowed to scout a 4gate if the toss is half decent.
Anyway i too feel like the balance whining recently has been getting a little out of hand. But i can understand fully as to why it is happening. Blizzard dont seem to be making decisions in the right manner or the right way. They judge things based about win rates and statistics that can mean anything. For instance terran have had decent win rates due to cheeses (2rax bunker rushes vs zerg) and early 1 base/medivac timing wins vs toss. The statistical situation of the later portions of game winning scenarios has not even been considered by blizzard or analyzed at this matter. So the balance changes that have happened for the past couple of months have been OTT (Over the top) and in some cases unnecessary. This is why a lot of the terran players in this community have been reacting in the way they have been. The skill gap has been proven that terran is the most difficult race to master in the entirety of the game but are getting further punished by blizzard making other races easier and more powerful to play. Nothing that blizzard have been doing as of recent times has been making any sense and there has been no real solution to the current state of skill difficulty. I dont want terran to be made easier to play...and i think i speak behalf of every terran on TL and in the starcraft community that it makes the game so much more fun to play and challenging when the skill gap is higher. But there is no excuse that when you have 2 other races within this game that are mathematically not has hard to master and play that blizzard gives them huge buffs to make the skill gap even further. It makes no sense and defies the logic of what this community needs and wants. In some respects having differences in opinion and balance makes this game more entertaining since there is always uncertainty within the community and more things being figured out but it has gone too far now. Before anyone on here sais how im whining and need to stop moaning i am merely trying to state and giving people an answer that is the real reason as to why there has been this influx of balance discussions.
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Unfortunately all korean BW pros actually have no idea about this concept of balance. Most of them got to this game after 8 years of strategic development. Almost every timing had been etched out to the millisecond. What they know as a strategic game was not even close to what we know as a strategic game.
So to them, when those timings don't exist, it obviously must be imbalanced.
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Accept things the way they are is bullshit. Balances are what keeps the game fun and enjoyable. If one race keeps getting nerfed to shit, something is going on. If X race is pwning X race most of the time, the game designers should do something about it, not just accept it.
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I'm a terran player. I used to play Terran at a high master level. I thought Protoss was OP.
Using my friends account, I laddered as Protoss to a higher master level in less games. Huh. :/
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If youre not GM I honestly dont care what you think is OP or UP. good read op!
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Flash is a god of BW. Flash *made* BW imbalanced by defeating everyone. The fact that he's losing so much in SC2 now has got to be frustrating. And the easiest way to soothe gamer ego is to blame the game developers, instead of admitting that it's your own fault.
The truth is, most Terrans have been having a tough time lategame TvP for the past 6 months now. It's not surprising that Flash has discovered this stumbling block after just a few weeks of play.
It will be interesting to watch this GSL finals. If anyone can figure out how to make lategame TvP work, it's MVP. However it is discouraging that all of MVP's wins this GSL have been 1-2 base timing pushes. Hopefully he will work out a solution for the finals.
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Everybody is free to think the game is imbalance.
But you shouldn't complain about it unless you are mid or high GM. Because if you are not, this means that you have many way to improve your play.
Only tournaments results can tell us if the game is balance or not.
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So this is turning into another flash thread/tvp thread. Never seen one of those before. 
My two cents is:
a) it's not a misguided quest when there's blatantly problems with the balance. Pretending that there's "nothing wrong" is certainly not a solution.
b) flash is the best SC1 player. This does not mean he is the best SC2 player of course. But this also does not mean that his blunt/honest interview answers and thoughts about TvP don't have a lot of insight/thought behind them either. He basically said warpgates/forcefields were imbalanced, and that's a pretty fair statement the best SC player ever can make having just come to SC2.
c) TvP lategame is not balanced. Most people at this point agree, most casters have finally acknowledged it in casts (aka honest casts), and soon I expect we'll see some buff to help out Terran lategame in TvP/TvZ, probably in the form of tweaking raven energy / other things.
It's not a misguided quest - the game simply is not balanced. Even in PvZ lategame there are huge problems that basically all pros acknowledge are a problem like the entire game being decided by vortex/corruptor/infestor/broodlord/deathball.
Nothings wrong with wanting the game to be more balanced, SC2 was not developed like brood war (sadly) otherwise we would in fact see the developers not continually nerfing stuff they deem as "OP." We would actually see blizzard BUFFING things to be OP for each race just like things are in brood war, which actually made the game end up completely balanced.
Just think back, defilers with dark swarm, irradiate, carriers, siege tanks, spider mines...all of these were technically "imbalanced" in brood war yet every race had such good things at their disposal you could overcome each thing with other things.
In SC2, a lot of the problem is you're forced into making "counter units" because of the hard counter system. Anyways, this is all old news from the beta, blizzard did not decide to make the game as good as brood war, so we have to be happy with what we have and hope that they do continue to keep working on balance, not pretend that the game is rainbows and sunshine because it is not yet.
edit: And yes, just as a guy above me pointed out, you OP have to deal with the fact that in just only 2-3 weeks or less of SC2 play, the best starcraft 1 player has already stumbled upon the fact that TvP lategame is not balanced. It's been like this for months and it took the best SC1 player 2 weeks to figure it out and call blizzard out on it. It's up to blizzard now.
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The whole balance thing is hilarious. I wish we could have let things sit and only make changes when it's pretty much 100% agreed upon since BETA. Funny they say Terran is just fine since Koreans can do well with them (and Thorzain) and they are winning GSL and tournaments. Where were those thoughts when Z and P won the first two GSLs?
SC2 is a joke and being dominated globally by LoL. Never thought the starcraft line would be dominated in Korea but it's happening. Blizzard making last minute deals and even Flash cannot save this heap of garbage. Diablo 3 will kill casual gamers playing SC2 and DOTA2 will finish off the competitive ones even with HOTS.
I bet Flash and other BW pros hate things like Fungal, FF, and Concussive Shells since it disables a progamers ability to utilize skill. Not to mention I have never seen this many base trades in BW in 10 years as compared to SC2 in a few years.
You Terran users should be happy that you can play a race that only Koreans and Thorzain can win with on the global stage.
The best thing about spectating and watching pros is watching "OMG I could never do that" moves which seems to happen only with Terran. I'm not saying Terran pro users are more skilled, I think it's just Blizzard limited the other races. Although I do like Naniwa and FF even though it neutralizes the other progamers skills.
EDIT: On a side note, some of you think Blizzard does a good job balancing? Just look at the maps they make, that should give you an idea how much they have a grip on this game. Barfs.
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Russian Federation142 Posts
On May 14 2012 12:41 Orzabal wrote:
Everybody is free to think the game is imbalance.
But you shouldn't complain about it unless you are mid or high GM. Because if you are not, this means that you have many way to improve your play.
Only tournaments results can tell us if the game is balance or not.
It may very well be balanced at the highest level, but it's not balanced for ladder play. One look at NA GM/high masters statistics will tell you what the balance is like for NA players.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race/all/1
I'm fairly certain many terran players quit due to how hard macro terran is compared to the other two races.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
One of my friends, who is high masters and ladders about 50 games a day, plays Zerg and constantly complains
I think balance is probably the least of his worries, if he's playing FIFTY games a day.....
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On May 12 2012 05:19 Holophonist wrote:
It's incredible how widespread this belief is, yet it always seems like the person presenting it seems to think they're breaking new ground.
Right off the bat I want to just squash this notion of "well if _____ is so overpowered, why don't you switch?" This bothers me to no end everytime somebody suggests it because it makes no sense in the context of the game we're playing. Each race plays vastly different and supports vastly different playstyles. I will never play protoss in a serious way. Ever. Not because I think they're the weakest, but just because it seems incredibly boring.
That being said, balance is a problem. Just because you always have a plethora of things you can improve upon doesn't mean that one of the things holding you back isn't balance. It's not even necessarily which race is overpowered or underpowered in general, it could be a certain unit composition in relation to your playstyle or it could be the learning curve in executing a strategy in comparison to how effective it is. I read a poll recently (don't remember where, sorry) that basically said 60% of zergs say their worst matchup is zvp... and oh by the way, 60% of protoss say pvz is their worst matchup. That isn't because zerg is OP in zvp AND protoss is OP in pvz. It means certain strategies on both sides are really really hard to deal with. The answer isn't for protoss players who die to 12 min roach max to switch to zerg and for zergs who die to 6 gate robo or any other 2 base timing to switch to protoss.
The thing about SC2 is the very way it's designed, at its core, is going to make it extremely hard to balance. It's so much more about strategy and sneakiness than it is about "skill-based" factors like mechanics. Also the units are just so much stronger and easier to get without much "economy management" involved.
Well put. People first think of units as bing "IMBA" rather it is the timing and strategies that drive the imbalance and create a innate (hopefully fixable) flaw within SC2.
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Isn't blizzard themself thinking units are imba? And do terrible terrible damage? Otherwise they wouldn't change them. This is such a great topic to waste your time on. Also I have to say I like your mindset but I have to say: I stopped complaining about protoss when I learned to macro better and beat my opponent the first time with a 12 minute maxout... I don't complain about ZVT or ZVP balance wise. For me it has nothing to do with my loses I lose all the time because I AM TO BAD. But the thing that upsets me is the game designe under the light of balance. This came to my mind when I started playing brood war... (as i came from wc3) gosh I would love to use lurkers and defilers... and i am sorry for the awesome units P and T lost or might lose in the future because the game shall be balanced in the way blizzard wants it to be
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Amen sir, well written article!
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balance threads are really difficult to have a discussion in
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On May 14 2012 12:48 avilo wrote:So this is turning into another flash thread/tvp thread. Never seen one of those before. My two cents is: a) it's not a misguided quest when there's blatantly problems with the balance. Pretending that there's "nothing wrong" is certainly not a solution. b) flash is the best SC1 player. This does not mean he is the best SC2 player of course. But this also does not mean that his blunt/honest interview answers and thoughts about TvP don't have a lot of insight/thought behind them either. He basically said warpgates/forcefields were imbalanced, and that's a pretty fair statement the best SC player ever can make having just come to SC2. c) TvP lategame is not balanced. Most people at this point agree, most casters have finally acknowledged it in casts (aka honest casts), and soon I expect we'll see some buff to help out Terran lategame in TvP/TvZ, probably in the form of tweaking raven energy / other things. It's not a misguided quest - the game simply is not balanced. Even in PvZ lategame there are huge problems that basically all pros acknowledge are a problem like the entire game being decided by vortex/corruptor/infestor/broodlord/deathball. Nothings wrong with wanting the game to be more balanced, SC2 was not developed like brood war (sadly) otherwise we would in fact see the developers not continually nerfing stuff they deem as "OP." We would actually see blizzard BUFFING things to be OP for each race just like things are in brood war, which actually made the game end up completely balanced. Just think back, defilers with dark swarm, irradiate, carriers, siege tanks, spider mines...all of these were technically "imbalanced" in brood war yet every race had such good things at their disposal you could overcome each thing with other things. In SC2, a lot of the problem is you're forced into making "counter units" because of the hard counter system. Anyways, this is all old news from the beta, blizzard did not decide to make the game as good as brood war, so we have to be happy with what we have and hope that they do continue to keep working on balance, not pretend that the game is rainbows and sunshine because it is not yet. edit: And yes, just as a guy above me pointed out, you OP have to deal with the fact that in just only 2-3 weeks or less of SC2 play, the best starcraft 1 player has already stumbled upon the fact that TvP lategame is not balanced. It's been like this for months and it took the best SC1 player 2 weeks to figure it out and call blizzard out on it. It's up to blizzard now.
You just earned a quote for beeing awesome. Thank you man. :D
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"less qq, more pewpew"
You sir should be the president of something, this quote is awesome :D
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The easier way to "balance" the game is to have a tournament format where it's different match ups for each match and the person who wins the most of those is the winner. That would be implausible though with 9 games per match, but at least it'd be balanced.
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You got it all wrong about the "imba" mindset being a bad one.
It can be bad to blame everything on balance, but in reality that is what you do anyway... your unconscious WILL blame everything on balance if it sees it as an option to defend "you" from your own mistakes... it tends to do that and you can't stop it, if we could than the world would be a better place and A LOT of bad things could be avoided.
Now going against your unconscious... aka being conscious is something you always do in real life, it keeps your from beating or swearing at people you don't agree with and from staring at "that one girl with huge boobs" for 20 minutes.
Is it good that we do it ? Some would say it is... its certainly required for us to live in the human society.
But does it make you sleep better at night ? That is arguable... many would say that is better to agree with your unconscious about small things that don't matter... even if they are wrong, just to fell a little bit better about yourself.
The mindset might harm you at some point, there are surely pros that were harmed by it... but than again, if they were frustrated with themselves while playing the game and not with the game they might have never reached the level of pros.
There are other pros, Idra being a good example, where it seems that the mindset helps them and even more so generates there fanbase.
So yeah, making a balance thread on TL might not be a good thing... since nothing will come out of it BUT saying to yourself " I lost cuz X is OP" doesn't have to be a bad thing as long as you don't blame everything on balance and thus not improve anymore.
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On May 14 2012 14:36 Aterons_toss wrote:many would say that is better to agree with your unconscious about small things that don't matter... even if they are wrong, just to fell a little bit better about yourself.
The problem then is that if you're always willing to make small concessions to yourself to feel better, it can inhibit your ability to improve. I think it's much better to learn to accept your failures without feeling too bad, rather than spending time making up excuses. If you can avoid looking at your losses as a personal reflection of yourself but instead as just an isolated incident, then you won't need to try and make yourself feel good by shifting blame around.
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I think we should remind ourselves of Fruitdealer, when he won the very first GSL in a time when Zerg was thought to be very very weak
I agree very much with the OP though
When I watch streams and look at the chat, theres always some sorta balance whining going on and all I can think is "why not just enjoy the game for what it is? As much as winning is important, its not the ONLY aspect of this game there is to enjoy." Crying about "imbalance" obviously isnt going to help you out, so might as well find a way to overcome obstacles (other than depending on Blizzard) or enjoying the game for what it is
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people like to complain and there is nothing else to say.
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Still think everyone on ladder should be forced to play random with their race announced, then people would realize that playing other races isn't just a-moving and there would be way less whining.
It does make me angry when so many people never give protoss pros any credit. The races are designed differently but protoss pros work just as hard and too many people who you don't play the race don't appreciate how difficult some of what they do is to pull off and just say a bunch of stupid bullshit like 'Protoss EZ A-move etc'.
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I think it is something we don't understand about the Koreans. They always say their race is underpowered in these kinda interviews. I don't know why they do it, but they always do.
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is this thread necessary?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Is it wrong to state what they think is inbalanced now? We gonna start a pitchfork on everyone who complains about balance?
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Pitchfork is already started when complains about balance arise. I'm not saying we should accept everything, but there's so little solid threads with solid data and analysis, that basically when it comes to discussing the balance everyone just throws their own subjective thoughts instead sticking to facts and numbers. And I don't think we should stay passive about balance until all expansions are out, because most probably then it'll too late to expect changes in the balance. Discuss balance, but do it reasonably with all required data and in-depth analysis of situation - games, statistics, possible solutions (with consequences in each matchup).
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99% of the people posting in this topic have never lost a game of Sc2 due to imbalance.
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some folk just like to talk balance, for them its fun. though they wouldnt admit it.
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On May 14 2012 18:30 Witten wrote:
99% of the people posting in this topic have never lost a game of Sc2 due to imbalance.
There's no such thing as "losing to imbalance".. you lose because he killed you.
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On May 14 2012 18:30 Witten wrote:
99% of the people posting in this topic have never lost a game of Sc2 due to imbalance.
The fact that there is room to micro and macro better doesn't mean that balance isn't influencing the game on all levels.
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Well written, I 100% agree!
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I hope they open for a way to ladder with each individual race. It will help bring more perspective and less whine.
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I completely disagree with the op. Just like every other problem in the world, ignoring it is not going to solve anything. Being belligerent about the problems wont solve it either. An open dialogue about balance with individuals who are actually trying to fix the issues and not just angry because they lost is the best solution. But balance is no different than anything else in the world, ignoring a problem does not make it go away. I feel the "stop complaining and play" argument is a little elitest and very unrealistic.
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On May 12 2012 05:08 Darkedge wrote:
I find it interesting that people always find their own race the weakest and it is always the other races that are OP, this just shows how limited and biased people can be. They want to believe that when they win, they did it because of how skilled they are, overcoming the odds stacked against them. It also gives them a nice convenient excuse when they lose, they get to blame it on balance instead of looking at their own mistakes. Ultimately it all comes down to the human ego. People that can't overcome their ego will always be prevented from achieving their true potential.
I find my own race kind of the strongest, the strongest lategame. I play protoss by the way.
maybe that comes from being nearly as good with my off-races so I kind of know how hard it is to play terran and zerg.
Yeah I get more mad when I lose with protoss than any other race because I know as a protoss player I feel like I should never be losing a PvZ and PvT and if I do so it's through my own mistakes
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On May 14 2012 19:06 takingbackoj wrote:
I completely disagree with the op. Just like every other problem in the world, ignoring it is not going to solve anything. Being belligerent about the problems wont solve it either. An open dialogue about balance with individuals who are actually trying to fix the issues and not just angry because they lost is the best solution. But balance is no different than anything else in the world, ignoring a problem does not make it go away and there is no way anyone can think the game is perfectly balanced. I feel the "stop complaining and play" argument is a little elitest.
Yes, the game cannot be perfectly balanced. Nothing is going to be perfect.
But that doesnt mean you go around attributing losing or parts of the game to imbalance.
The OP isnt saying "ignore imbalance". He's saying something along the lines of "dont just sit there and whine, it wont do you any good. either switch to whatever is "imbalanced" or find a way to overcome your problem".
I dont feel like he's being elitest, he's addressing what he feels is the incorrect way of improving the state of the game, and suggesting an alternative
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The problem with many claims of imbalance is that they're based on a subjective impression rather than win/loss statistics. Blizzard uses those statistics as their metric, sets a clear threshold for how far off is too far, and adjusts accordingly. My question is: if the win/loss statistics are close to even in every matchup (as they are), what does a claim of imbalance even mean? Is the complaint that players want to play a different style but are forced into less favored styles in order to retain their chance to win?
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On May 12 2012 05:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
This sounds like a blog.
But yea I tell people this same thing all the time since I play random and I encourage anyone who hasn't tried random on the ladder to do so to get a better sense of game balance.
That said, Flash is a bit of a different example altogether because he's coming from Brood War. Which was a much better balanced game than SC2 is currently, so I can understand the frustration.
BW wasn't a better balanced game, it was far more understood and developed that lead to a more balanced gameplay. If storm still dealt 125 damage, it would crush bio-play. Dark swarm would make fungal growth look up. And tanks doesn't do 1 million damage per shot anymore.
Besides playing random doesn't give any sense of game balance since it forces your opponent to make a build that is not optimal at the start of the game, or he makes an incredibly risky strat.
Playing 10 games with zerg, then 10 games with toss, then 10 games with terran. Gives more understanding of balance.
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On May 12 2012 05:08 Darkedge wrote:
I find it interesting that people always find their own race the weakest and it is always the other races that are OP, this just shows how limited and biased people can be. They want to believe that when they win, they did it because of how skilled they are, overcoming the odds stacked against them. It also gives them a nice convenient excuse when they lose, they get to blame it on balance instead of looking at their own mistakes. Ultimately it all comes down to the human ego. People that can't overcome their ego will always be prevented from achieving their true potential.
yeah people have a way of never blaming themselves
kinda fun though to try to change people on the ladder... its bm for sure to even try i guess.. but in a way it might change some people...
i've had one success story where there was a terran that claimed zerg was op.. and after a discussion over 10-15 minutes i did manage to get through to him.. he admitted he made mistakes in the game and got advise on what i thought was hard to deal with when i go for the tactic i chose
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So true, finally blizzard will confront the reality of their failure.
Bad design choices, presumption, arrogance. All of this is coming on them.
They ignored the community, and now it's probably too late for them to save the Starcraft Franchise.
We are doomed. 
p.s.
BRING REAVER BACK AND KILL THE FRACKING BORING RIDICOLOUS IDIOTIC RETARDED COLOSSUS !!!!!!!
AND THE FUNGAL
AND THE ROACH
AND THE MARAUDER
AND THE REAPER
AND THE QUEEN MECHANIC
...
...
..
.
On May 14 2012 12:48 Instigata wrote:
The whole balance thing is hilarious. I wish we could have let things sit and only make changes when it's pretty much 100% agreed upon since BETA. Funny they say Terran is just fine since Koreans can do well with them (and Thorzain) and they are winning GSL and tournaments. Where were those thoughts when Z and P won the first two GSLs?
SC2 is a joke and being dominated globally by LoL. Never thought the starcraft line would be dominated in Korea but it's happening. Blizzard making last minute deals and even Flash cannot save this heap of garbage. Diablo 3 will kill casual gamers playing SC2 and DOTA2 will finish off the competitive ones even with HOTS.
I bet Flash and other BW pros hate things like Fungal, FF, and Concussive Shells since it disables a progamers ability to utilize skill. Not to mention I have never seen this many base trades in BW in 10 years as compared to SC2 in a few years.
You Terran users should be happy that you can play a race that only Koreans and Thorzain can win with on the global stage.
The best thing about spectating and watching pros is watching "OMG I could never do that" moves which seems to happen only with Terran. I'm not saying Terran pro users are more skilled, I think it's just Blizzard limited the other races. Although I do like Naniwa and FF even though it neutralizes the other progamers skills.
EDIT: On a side note, some of you think Blizzard does a good job balancing? Just look at the maps they make, that should give you an idea how much they have a grip on this game. Barfs.
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Are people still shitting their pants about what Flash said?
If any high masters player balance whined, would you take him seriously and make such a huge fuss over it? He said he has only been playing force a few weeks/months, and lets face it when pretty much everyone started FFs were imba as FUCK (good god FFs are such bad game design).
Just move on people, please.
Nice OP btw, exactly the mindset we need.
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your mindset of comparing bw and sc2 balance is ridiculous, i hear alot of people saying that bw had over 10 years to become balanced, which is terribly misinformed, the last balance patch for bw was in 2001.
yes, sc2 is still young when compared to bw, but in this day and age there are so many tools and references to make balance decisions off of, the process should be much quicker and efficient, yet this is not the case. how many times have we seen back and forth balance decisions, just wiki the build time for the terran bunker or rax. blizzard simply cannot get their numbers right. Another is blizz making extreme adjustments that are make or break, im talking bout things like snipe 45->25, warp prism shields 40->100. These things never happend in bw.
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The game is not balanced, balance isnt something you can achieve in a game that has 3 distinctive races.
You can only try to counteract heavy imbalances in the game, by adjusting values, thats all you can do.
Even mirror matches arent possible to balance, because sc2 is a game of incomplete information.
Furthermore, even if all the information was available, it would still be impossible to balance because you cant account for a player´s maximum skill ceiling.
If every player had enough skill and speed to use every single marine in their group individually, then banelings would never be able to ever do anything against marines.
But at what skill point do you draw the line and say: alright, the players dont have enough skill therefore banelings are good against marines and then proceed to balance around that fact?
You can apply that logic to every scenario and ask yourself the same question.
The game is not balanceable, just forget about it.
If someone complains about something being imbalanced, he might very well be correct about that.
Doesnt mean that there arent other imbalances that helps his race out aswell.
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Balance issues do exist. To not care about it is dumb, because some people make a living off of this game, they should have equal opportunity to win with each race. Balance should be discussed and fixed until the game is perfectly balanced.
That said, attributing everything bad that happens to you to balance is dumb.
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So the OP advocates being a total push over and not seeing Blizzard's balancing and map making team as the garbage they really are?
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
Starcraft 2 has been out for less than two years. Think about how many years passed before the Brood War metagame became stabilized.
Yes ... But No .... SC2 was developped with the information gathered throughout BW and WC3's balancing and patching years. It's obvious Blizzard wouldn't be able to perfectly balance it within the first 3 months of it's release but it is also wrong to expect SC2 to be balanced after all the years it took BW to be balanced, just because BW was probably one of the first game requiring so match patches post-release for a competitive balance.
The only thing that could let us think SC2 not being balanced right now is acceptable is that it is meant to be a 2 expansion game, and therefore, the final product still hasn't been delivered (and this argument isn't much valuable either considering SC2 was meant to have an e-Sports activity from the very beginning of the beta).
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On May 14 2012 19:02 Advocado wrote:
I hope they open for a way to ladder with each individual race. It will help bring more perspective and less whine.
This is so true. I spent all of last season playing random, and it really opened up my eyes
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On May 14 2012 19:50 reminisce12 wrote:
your mindset of comparing bw and sc2 balance is ridiculous, i hear alot of people saying that bw had over 10 years to become balanced, which is terribly misinformed, the last balance patch for bw was in 2001.
yes, sc2 is still young when compared to bw, but in this day and age there are so many tools and references to make balance decisions off of, the process should be much quicker and efficient, yet this is not the case. how many times have we seen back and forth balance decisions, just wiki the build time for the terran bunker or rax. blizzard simply cannot get their numbers right. Another is blizz making extreme adjustments that are make or break, im talking bout things like snipe 45->25, warp prism shields 40->100. These things never happend in bw.
Actually, vanilla SC was horribly balanced and it was only with BW that things started to settle down. Guess what? There's an expansion coming for SCII.
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I've been saying the same thing for about a year.
There are three distinct problems that led to how "balance" is perceived in the community these days
1) Lack of aggressive moderation - IMO every thread regarding balance made after Beta should have been lock-on-sight (possibly with the exceptions of - singular - patch threads). Likewise for posts, especially in unrelated threads.
2) Progamers being too whiny, especially in late 2010 and 2011, because they realized that making their opinion public can trigger balance changes that will be favorable to them. If Blizzard had guts and integrity, they would have stomped on this idea at day 1 of release.
3) Blizzard realizing that while they can never get the game more balanced than it was for a long time now, they can at least put out patches to make a certain race happy and artificially tweak percentages by fiddling with (and often times resetting) the metagame in a specific matchup.
In a nutshell, players are only looking after their own interests, and Blizzard is adjusting balance on the basis of what will make the most people happy. The way it's been done so far, the patching will NEVER stop, and the game will likewise never really get any more balanced (but it can get less balanced).
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Yawn, people do not care when some random ladder guy balance whines but when its the best rts player in history giving his opinion on an rts game, people will listen. Your friend sounds like a ladder monster (or cheeser) playing 50 games a day, no wonder hes getting frustrated thats a lot of sc2.
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Germany49 Posts
Flash can't be serious. No one can say "everything about XY is OP" and be serious...
And to the whining people: Switch the race. Seriously, two weeks and you will think the opposite about balance. If you still have balance criticism take a minute and look how your race has constant good tournament results. Thank you.
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On May 14 2012 19:11 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:08 Darkedge wrote:
I find it interesting that people always find their own race the weakest and it is always the other races that are OP, this just shows how limited and biased people can be. They want to believe that when they win, they did it because of how skilled they are, overcoming the odds stacked against them. It also gives them a nice convenient excuse when they lose, they get to blame it on balance instead of looking at their own mistakes. Ultimately it all comes down to the human ego. People that can't overcome their ego will always be prevented from achieving their true potential. I find my own race kind of the strongest, the strongest lategame. I play protoss by the way. maybe that comes from being nearly as good with my off-races so I kind of know how hard it is to play terran and zerg. Yeah I get more mad when I lose with protoss than any other race because I know as a protoss player I feel like I should never be losing a PvZ and PvT and if I do so it's through my own mistakes
I +1 this ( by pianodentist, the rest is more directed to the guy you quoted ) .
As someone pointed out on TL.net ( don't wanna dig up the thread ) blaming the game, in some situations helps you tremendously. Because if you can't blame the game the only other explanation for say a streak of 5 losses, is that you are really really bad at the game, and this kind of thought can shatter your image of yourself. So when loosing a lot, it's no surprise that you blame the game and start believing that your race is the weakest. WHICH ABSOLUTELY DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE GAME IS BALANCED. It just explains why people are SO biased. Add to that the fact that, if you don't play the other races every once in a while you have a harder time finding a "weakness" than a strength in them.
For instance you'd see a drop coming and it kills your tech or something and you'll go like " oh hey that sh*t is imbalanced it costs him so little and does so much" but if you were the one doing the drop you'd see how weak the rest of your army is and go " wow he has so much sh*t my army is so small" ( HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION )
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On May 12 2012 05:02 IntoTheWow wrote:
I think Flash already has this mindset, else he would be throwing keyboards against the wall and not winning all the time in BW.
Take a PR interview on a league switch for what it is, nothing more.
Exatcly this. Instead saying "whats the point" he dismantled Stork on Katrina with double armory and proceed to dominate the scene for years, to give an example.
To add different perspective, for all those gods of BW playing a game which is still in balancing stage is a fresh experience, and some of them take it ... maybe to lightly? But when you hear their interviews about BW and how they like to whine about maps (half-jokingly) its really nothing new. Also remember that there was a bit in interview that said everything coming from BW scene regarding SC2 may be slightly exxagarated.
Conclusion, from SC2 fan perspective treat any up and coming interview with top BW player with a grain of salt. And take it with better attitude. Flash Bisu or Stork/Jangbi etc.can look way more human/whiney in non TV interviews than you might think.
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yeah i too play random and see the MU's for what they are, individual contests where separate rules apply for each of the 9 MU's.
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On May 14 2012 21:38 bgx wrote:Flash can look human
Mmmh ? What ? I think yoy are gravely mistaken.
But yeah bisu is known for blaming the maps, and on the other hand you have forgg pretty much stealing jaedong's msl on the most T favored maps ever, and the dong not even complaining.
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On May 12 2012 05:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
This sounds like a blog.
But yea I tell people this same thing all the time since I play random and I encourage anyone who hasn't tried random on the ladder to do so to get a better sense of game balance.
That said, Flash is a bit of a different example altogether because he's coming from Brood War. Which was a much better balanced game than SC2 is currently, so I can understand the frustration.
Not really, it isn't that much better balanced than SC2, just less volatile. That being said, the main difference about BW and SC2 imo is about the mindset.pepople who watch BW knows that if some race is looking inbalanced the reason probably is a metagame shift or the maps used instead of blaming on the units.
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On May 14 2012 21:28 Kulijo wrote:
Flash can't be serious. No one can say "everything about XY is OP" and be serious...
And to the whining people: Switch the race. Seriously, two weeks and you will think the opposite about balance. If you still have balance criticism take a minute and look how your race has constant good tournament results. Thank you.
Flash was serious actually, as are many professional players that are speaking out in vain in an attempt to get Blizzard to do something. Hopefully Blizzard will wake up one day.
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On May 14 2012 20:59 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 19:50 reminisce12 wrote:
your mindset of comparing bw and sc2 balance is ridiculous, i hear alot of people saying that bw had over 10 years to become balanced, which is terribly misinformed, the last balance patch for bw was in 2001.
yes, sc2 is still young when compared to bw, but in this day and age there are so many tools and references to make balance decisions off of, the process should be much quicker and efficient, yet this is not the case. how many times have we seen back and forth balance decisions, just wiki the build time for the terran bunker or rax. blizzard simply cannot get their numbers right. Another is blizz making extreme adjustments that are make or break, im talking bout things like snipe 45->25, warp prism shields 40->100. These things never happend in bw. Actually, vanilla SC was horribly balanced and it was only with BW that things started to settle down. Guess what? There's an expansion coming for SCII.
But we have to wait 2-3 years for that while Vanilla SCers waited 5 months ...
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There is still more units to be added to the game (hopefully making mech more viable vs protoss QQ) but i have to agree with the sentiment of the OP, that the game is still evolving and that we have a lot still to discover.
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On May 14 2012 22:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 21:28 Kulijo wrote:
Flash can't be serious. No one can say "everything about XY is OP" and be serious...
And to the whining people: Switch the race. Seriously, two weeks and you will think the opposite about balance. If you still have balance criticism take a minute and look how your race has constant good tournament results. Thank you. Flash was serious actually, as are many professional players that are speaking out in vain in an attempt to get Blizzard to do something. Hopefully Blizzard will wake up one day.
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.
I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.
On May 14 2012 22:25 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:59 starfries wrote:On May 14 2012 19:50 reminisce12 wrote:
your mindset of comparing bw and sc2 balance is ridiculous, i hear alot of people saying that bw had over 10 years to become balanced, which is terribly misinformed, the last balance patch for bw was in 2001.
yes, sc2 is still young when compared to bw, but in this day and age there are so many tools and references to make balance decisions off of, the process should be much quicker and efficient, yet this is not the case. how many times have we seen back and forth balance decisions, just wiki the build time for the terran bunker or rax. blizzard simply cannot get their numbers right. Another is blizz making extreme adjustments that are make or break, im talking bout things like snipe 45->25, warp prism shields 40->100. These things never happend in bw. Actually, vanilla SC was horribly balanced and it was only with BW that things started to settle down. Guess what? There's an expansion coming for SCII. But we have to wait 2-3 years for that while Vanilla SCers waited 5 months ...
Patch 1.08, the one that "fixed" Brood War, was released over 3 years after the original game.
On May 14 2012 22:33 tomatriedes wrote:
It's funny how people equate being very good at a game to being completely neutral when talking about balance.
No one is completely neutral when talking about balance.
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It's funny how people equate being very good at a game to being completely neutral when talking about balance.
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Yes, I believe that Flash and many other BW pros are just having a difficult time adjusting to the new races (Zerg especially).
I think, mainly, it's just a matter of time before they get over it.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that, if one race started out with 3/3 upgrades and all their units flew, then that would be a problem. But, with the way the game is now, I agree that balance whining is largely (VERY largely) overdone. Most people who complain about balance aren't even in a stage of the game in which they can even be affected by it. They just QQ because they don't know why the lost.
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On May 12 2012 05:02 IntoTheWow wrote:
I think Flash already has this mindset, else he would be throwing keyboards against the wall and not winning all the time in BW.
Take a PR interview on a league switch for what it is, nothing more.
Well said.
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On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.
I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.
False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you.
You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful.
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Good OP, but people will always whine, sorry to say.
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The whole balance issue is a bit more complex then what OP mentions.
Yes most of the times people complain about racial imbalances and don’t have a clue, are just sticking out for their own race and overall should just focus on their own gameplay. + Show Spoiler +lol at OP for hinting this about flash tough
However you can’t generalize like that and mature balance discussion needs to take place, you can’t just accept by default the "politically correct" stance that the game is by itself balanced and if it’s not some sort of authority figure is going to fix it.
You are saying that SC2 has been out for 2 years and BW had more time to develop, but the thing is that SC2 isn’t a completely new game, a car brand uses the experience and information gathered with a previous model to greatly enhance the next one, and fix mistakes done previously.
However if you notice it, the SC2 balance team often completely disregards BW and tell people to go play it instead if they don’t like something in SC2.
But then again you can just disregard all this and bare in mind that BW wasn’t really balanced at all and it was Kespa that regulated things with their maps. If after 10+ years BW wasn’t balanced why do you think SC2 will be?
+ Show Spoiler +Btw I’m not a BW fanboy as I barely played the game, the main issue is just that there is shit that worked in BW that for some reason isn’t working in SC2
SC2 also has of patches that fiddle with the metagame, but most of them are terrible and badly justified, even if you look at the future, at Hots more precisely, you see the same pattern, alot of various units were announced then most of them were pulled out, its like they literally just thought about new shiny things to put into the game without any regard to the general game play behind it, then when they actually tried them out they were like "OH wait.."
In my opinion SC2 desperately needs some sort of an open forum were notable SC2 related people gather up and discuss balance until shit gets done, maybe some sort of international version of Kespa or something?
Its not that hard people!
TL;DR: You can’t tell people to just stfu and play, because most of them don’t feel like the balance of SC2 is in capable hands, especially when you have prominent SC champions rectifying their opinions.
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Complete balance between three different forces that are completely different is impossible AFAIK.
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On May 14 2012 22:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.
I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.
False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you. You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful.
No one can figure out the game completely in a couple months. Not even Flash.
I'm not sure what "Protoss denial" is, but it just makes you sound like you're on tilt. Got all-in'ed a bit too much on ladder?
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Terran has the highest skill ceiling thats why you see so many koreans play as those races. But blizzard thinks because the best players in the world are terrans means that terran is imba. They make the race look imba by sick micro because remember terran has the highest skill ceiling. So if you are looking to be amazing at the game why wouldnt you play terran. But the fact that they are nerfing terran because of this simple fact is just stupid. Not everyone on the ladder can split their armies and kite like MKP. So when you nerf Terran you are nerfing it because the best players make it look good.
Terran imo is a much harder race to play than zerg. I used to be a Zerg. The reason why I switched is because Terrans mechanics fit my playstyle much better than zerg did, and not to mention I got sick of ZvP where protoss rapes your army because of forcefields. I think the major balancing issue with the game are HT and FF's. As a Zerg you sometimes feel helpless against protoss FF even when you catch them off guard.
In my opinion I think the way they can balance the game and make more strategies for Terran and Zerg against protoss. Is make FF cost 50 energy. And reduce the damage from Storm also make feedback not work against massive units OR have a max amount of damage it can deal. That will give thors and BC's to show their face in that match up. Not to mention HT have the most killing power of any casting unit. Going into an engagement as a Terran against Toss you want to have your ghost at full energy so you can get off the necessary EMP's to stop the protoss army from craping on your face. If landing a feed back on the ghosts you are killing them instantly. Even if ghosts have half full energy they are dead. Also going against Zealot Archon build which 95% of protoss's do late game against terran. So as a terran in order to have a decent amount of counter dps to counter act the zealots dps an average terran will a decent amount of marines and this is where the HT come into play. HT will deal 80 damage with storms. Marines max health is only 55 health so when you have something that can kill an entire unit by using 1 75 energy storm you are destroying the only thing stopping the zealots. Now you have marauders with 45 health left now and zealot dps is 20. So within a matter of 10 game seconds a terran is completely gone. With no way to defend itself because the protoss army pretty much went untouched. All protoss needs in order to win a game is to have 1 engagement in which they are mildly prepared for and also pending on the map of course but basically one. As a Terran or zerg it takes multiple engagements continually nitpicking at the Protoss in order to make a dent so that you can step on their throat and win the game.
My ways to fix the balance:
HT feedback does 50% less damage. So when they come across a 100 energy ghost and they feed back it. It will only take 50 health.It can still drain all of their energy!
Also storm damage reduced from 80 to 50. I dont believe any casting unit should have the ability to kill any unit with just 1 cast of something. And since EMP is a non killing cast and fungal growth only does 30 damage(36 against armored) I believe that these changes are fair and reasonable.
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On May 14 2012 23:57 lamiller wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Terran has the highest skill ceiling thats why you see so many koreans play as those races. But blizzard thinks because the best players in the world are terrans means that terran is imba. They make the race look imba by sick micro because remember terran has the highest skill ceiling. So if you are looking to be amazing at the game why wouldnt you play terran. But the fact that they are nerfing terran because of this simple fact is just stupid. Not everyone on the ladder can split their armies and kite like MKP. So when you nerf Terran you are nerfing it because the best players make it look good.
Terran imo is a much harder race to play than zerg. I used to be a Zerg. The reason why I switched is because Terrans mechanics fit my playstyle much better than zerg did, and not to mention I got sick of ZvP where protoss rapes your army because of forcefields. I think the major balancing issue with the game are HT and FF's. As a Zerg you sometimes feel helpless against protoss FF even when you catch them off guard.
In my opinion I think the way they can balance the game and make more strategies for Terran and Zerg against protoss. Is make FF cost 50 energy. And reduce the damage from Storm also make feedback not work against massive units OR have a max amount of damage it can deal. That will give thors and BC's to show their face in that match up. Not to mention HT have the most killing power of any casting unit. Going into an engagement as a Terran against Toss you want to have your ghost at full energy so you can get off the necessary EMP's to stop the protoss army from craping on your face. If landing a feed back on the ghosts you are killing them instantly. Even if ghosts have half full energy they are dead. Also going against Zealot Archon build which 95% of protoss's do late game against terran. So as a terran in order to have a decent amount of counter dps to counter act the zealots dps an average terran will a decent amount of marines and this is where the HT come into play. HT will deal 80 damage with storms. Marines max health is only 55 health so when you have something that can kill an entire unit by using 1 75 energy storm you are destroying the only thing stopping the zealots. Now you have marauders with 45 health left now and zealot dps is 20. So within a matter of 10 game seconds a terran is completely gone. With no way to defend itself because the protoss army pretty much went untouched. All protoss needs in order to win a game is to have 1 engagement in which they are mildly prepared for and also pending on the map of course but basically one. As a Terran or zerg it takes multiple engagements continually nitpicking at the Protoss in order to make a dent so that you can step on their throat and win the game.
My ways to fix the balance:
Sentry FF costs 50 energy instead of 25.
HT feedback does 50% less damage. So when they come across a 100 energy ghost and they feed back it. It will only take 50 health.It can still drain all of their energy!
Also storm damage reduced from 80 to 50. I dont believe any casting unit should have the ability to kill any unit with just 1 cast of something. And since EMP is a non killing cast and fungal growth only does 30 damage(36 against armored) I believe that these changes are fair and reasonable.
Sentry FF already costs 50 energy. Did you really think it was 25 energy?
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I was misinformed thank you for pointing that out!
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On May 14 2012 23:59 Onecron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:57 lamiller wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Terran has the highest skill ceiling thats why you see so many koreans play as those races. But blizzard thinks because the best players in the world are terrans means that terran is imba. They make the race look imba by sick micro because remember terran has the highest skill ceiling. So if you are looking to be amazing at the game why wouldnt you play terran. But the fact that they are nerfing terran because of this simple fact is just stupid. Not everyone on the ladder can split their armies and kite like MKP. So when you nerf Terran you are nerfing it because the best players make it look good.
Terran imo is a much harder race to play than zerg. I used to be a Zerg. The reason why I switched is because Terrans mechanics fit my playstyle much better than zerg did, and not to mention I got sick of ZvP where protoss rapes your army because of forcefields. I think the major balancing issue with the game are HT and FF's. As a Zerg you sometimes feel helpless against protoss FF even when you catch them off guard.
In my opinion I think the way they can balance the game and make more strategies for Terran and Zerg against protoss. Is make FF cost 50 energy. And reduce the damage from Storm also make feedback not work against massive units OR have a max amount of damage it can deal. That will give thors and BC's to show their face in that match up. Not to mention HT have the most killing power of any casting unit. Going into an engagement as a Terran against Toss you want to have your ghost at full energy so you can get off the necessary EMP's to stop the protoss army from craping on your face. If landing a feed back on the ghosts you are killing them instantly. Even if ghosts have half full energy they are dead. Also going against Zealot Archon build which 95% of protoss's do late game against terran. So as a terran in order to have a decent amount of counter dps to counter act the zealots dps an average terran will a decent amount of marines and this is where the HT come into play. HT will deal 80 damage with storms. Marines max health is only 55 health so when you have something that can kill an entire unit by using 1 75 energy storm you are destroying the only thing stopping the zealots. Now you have marauders with 45 health left now and zealot dps is 20. So within a matter of 10 game seconds a terran is completely gone. With no way to defend itself because the protoss army pretty much went untouched. All protoss needs in order to win a game is to have 1 engagement in which they are mildly prepared for and also pending on the map of course but basically one. As a Terran or zerg it takes multiple engagements continually nitpicking at the Protoss in order to make a dent so that you can step on their throat and win the game.
My ways to fix the balance:
Sentry FF costs 50 energy instead of 25.
HT feedback does 50% less damage. So when they come across a 100 energy ghost and they feed back it. It will only take 50 health.It can still drain all of their energy!
Also storm damage reduced from 80 to 50. I dont believe any casting unit should have the ability to kill any unit with just 1 cast of something. And since EMP is a non killing cast and fungal growth only does 30 damage(36 against armored) I believe that these changes are fair and reasonable. Sentry FF already costs 50 energy. Did you really think it was 25 energy?
That kind of says it all about how clueless these whiners are.
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On May 15 2012 00:02 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:59 Onecron wrote:On May 14 2012 23:57 lamiller wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Terran has the highest skill ceiling thats why you see so many koreans play as those races. But blizzard thinks because the best players in the world are terrans means that terran is imba. They make the race look imba by sick micro because remember terran has the highest skill ceiling. So if you are looking to be amazing at the game why wouldnt you play terran. But the fact that they are nerfing terran because of this simple fact is just stupid. Not everyone on the ladder can split their armies and kite like MKP. So when you nerf Terran you are nerfing it because the best players make it look good.
Terran imo is a much harder race to play than zerg. I used to be a Zerg. The reason why I switched is because Terrans mechanics fit my playstyle much better than zerg did, and not to mention I got sick of ZvP where protoss rapes your army because of forcefields. I think the major balancing issue with the game are HT and FF's. As a Zerg you sometimes feel helpless against protoss FF even when you catch them off guard.
In my opinion I think the way they can balance the game and make more strategies for Terran and Zerg against protoss. Is make FF cost 50 energy. And reduce the damage from Storm also make feedback not work against massive units OR have a max amount of damage it can deal. That will give thors and BC's to show their face in that match up. Not to mention HT have the most killing power of any casting unit. Going into an engagement as a Terran against Toss you want to have your ghost at full energy so you can get off the necessary EMP's to stop the protoss army from craping on your face. If landing a feed back on the ghosts you are killing them instantly. Even if ghosts have half full energy they are dead. Also going against Zealot Archon build which 95% of protoss's do late game against terran. So as a terran in order to have a decent amount of counter dps to counter act the zealots dps an average terran will a decent amount of marines and this is where the HT come into play. HT will deal 80 damage with storms. Marines max health is only 55 health so when you have something that can kill an entire unit by using 1 75 energy storm you are destroying the only thing stopping the zealots. Now you have marauders with 45 health left now and zealot dps is 20. So within a matter of 10 game seconds a terran is completely gone. With no way to defend itself because the protoss army pretty much went untouched. All protoss needs in order to win a game is to have 1 engagement in which they are mildly prepared for and also pending on the map of course but basically one. As a Terran or zerg it takes multiple engagements continually nitpicking at the Protoss in order to make a dent so that you can step on their throat and win the game.
My ways to fix the balance:
Sentry FF costs 50 energy instead of 25.
HT feedback does 50% less damage. So when they come across a 100 energy ghost and they feed back it. It will only take 50 health.It can still drain all of their energy!
Also storm damage reduced from 80 to 50. I dont believe any casting unit should have the ability to kill any unit with just 1 cast of something. And since EMP is a non killing cast and fungal growth only does 30 damage(36 against armored) I believe that these changes are fair and reasonable. Sentry FF already costs 50 energy. Did you really think it was 25 energy? That kind of says it all about how clueless these whiners are.
I believe my description of the current TvP late game is pretty dead on
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I think sentries should start with less energy or generate it slower but i also think that 3/3 stimmed bio deals too much dmg, so maybe a lil stim nerf
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On May 15 2012 00:04 Skaminator wrote:
I think sentries should start with less energy or generate it slower but i also think that 3/3 stimmed bio deals too much dmg, so maybe a lil stim nerf
I think sentries should start with some energy because they are so expensive when it comes to gas to where they need to be able to use a FF right away. I would reduce the range on it instead of changing the amount of energy.
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Also stim is strong for a reason. Not to mention it takes out much needed health off of marines and marauders in a TvP engagement. I think there is a balanced trade off.
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On May 14 2012 23:57 lamiller wrote:
Terran has the highest skill ceiling thats why you see so many koreans play as those races.
Everyone thinks their own race has the highest skill cap. You do realize many Koreans play as Protoss and Zerg as well?
Not everyone on the ladder can split their armies and kite like MKP.
And not everyone can micro their stalkers like Parting.
I could rewrite your whole post from a Zerg or Protoss perspective and it would sound pretty much the same.
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I'm just talking about serious balance fixes. If you want to nerf something then lets discuss it. If we think things are imba lets come up with fixes. And lets post why this is a bad thing or why it could be a viable solution
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On May 15 2012 00:08 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:57 lamiller wrote:
Terran has the highest skill ceiling thats why you see so many koreans play as those races.
Everyone thinks their own race has the highest skill cap. You do realize many Koreans play as Protoss and Zerg as well? And not everyone can micro their stalkers like Parting. I could rewrite your whole post from a Zerg or Protoss perspective and it would sound pretty much the same.
In TvP late game stalkers are almost non-exsistent late game so you wouldnt see any blink micro like Parting. Sorry. Please rewrite my whole post. If anything I was showing bias to zerg and terran not just to terran. And not to mention everyone who knows something about the game knows that Terran has the highest skill cap
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Protoss nerfes you're describing are interesting, but the way you're disregarding its' influence on PvZ is mind blowing. If you're going to whine, at least think for a moment of the impact on other matchups instead of writing whatever ideas you have.
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Don't understand why people think complaining about balance and improving are mutually exclusive; they're not. Flash has said Protoss has a slight advantage vs Terran in Brood War interviews too, and it would be a massive understatement to say he's still good at the matchup. Also Boxer was one of the first to say there was a T>Z>P>T balance triangle in BW, but as you said Boxer did well too.
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around
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On May 15 2012 00:24 Deimos0 wrote:
Protoss nerfes you're describing are interesting, but the way you're disregarding its' influence on PvZ is mind blowing. If you're going to whine, at least think for a moment of the impact on other matchups instead of writing whatever ideas you have.
Disregarding what? If you want me to talk about the affect of HT nerf in ZvP I'll talk about that. I just didnt want to have a 3 page long post
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Although I really don't think switching races is the solution,
Lamiller should try it, should'nt be too hard as looking at his analysis (HT are the problem) he can't be higher then plat.
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Like Scootaloo said, try race switching to toss for a moment. Then watch yourself get stomped by terran players. Hey, now terran is imba! Let's remove stimpack because it kills my army so quickly! Please. Your suggestions are laughable. How about you think for a moment before posting a 2 page long rant.
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On May 15 2012 00:11 lamiller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 00:08 starfries wrote:On May 14 2012 23:57 lamiller wrote:
Terran has the highest skill ceiling thats why you see so many koreans play as those races.
Everyone thinks their own race has the highest skill cap. You do realize many Koreans play as Protoss and Zerg as well?
Not everyone on the ladder can split their armies and kite like MKP.
And not everyone can micro their stalkers like Parting. I could rewrite your whole post from a Zerg or Protoss perspective and it would sound pretty much the same. In TvP late game stalkers are almost non-exsistent late game so you wouldnt see any blink micro like Parting. Sorry. Please rewrite my whole post. If anything I was showing bias to zerg and terran not just to terran. And not to mention everyone who knows something about the game knows that Terran has the highest skill cap
You know, do date, I have not heard a single pro worth listening to say that. Many of them know quite a bit about the game and very few of them are saying that terran has the highest skill cap.
And what does that even mean? If it one of those phrases people throw around on TL, but never really back up with any facts. Is skill cap based on the number of repeated actions a race requires to be effective? Or can it be bases on the difficulty of scouting and decision making? Want if a race does not require a large number of repeated actions, but 5 or 6 really precise actions at a specific moment? What about remembering to do an 1-8 repeated actions every 45 seconds, even in the middle of a massive battle?
Skill cap is one of those things that changes depending on who is argueing and what point they are trying to make.
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Best part is his last paragraph where he advocates making storm 50 damage because otherwise it's imbalanced compared to FG and EMP, completely forgetting that storm doesn't impair movement or drain mana.
Although calling feedback overpowered probably made me laugh the hardest, looks like someone is terrible with ghosts.
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On May 15 2012 02:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 00:11 lamiller wrote:On May 15 2012 00:08 starfries wrote:On May 14 2012 23:57 lamiller wrote:
Terran has the highest skill ceiling thats why you see so many koreans play as those races.
Everyone thinks their own race has the highest skill cap. You do realize many Koreans play as Protoss and Zerg as well?
Not everyone on the ladder can split their armies and kite like MKP.
And not everyone can micro their stalkers like Parting. I could rewrite your whole post from a Zerg or Protoss perspective and it would sound pretty much the same. In TvP late game stalkers are almost non-exsistent late game so you wouldnt see any blink micro like Parting. Sorry. Please rewrite my whole post. If anything I was showing bias to zerg and terran not just to terran. And not to mention everyone who knows something about the game knows that Terran has the highest skill cap You know, do date, I have not heard a single pro worth listening to say that. Many of them know quite a bit about the game and very few of them are saying that terran has the highest skill cap. And what does that even mean? If it one of those phrases people throw around on TL, but never really back up with any facts. Is skill cap based on the number of repeated actions a race requires to be effective? Or can it be bases on the difficulty of scouting and decision making? Want if a race does not require a large number of repeated actions, but 5 or 6 really precise actions at a specific moment? What about remembering to do an 1-8 repeated actions every 45 seconds, even in the middle of a massive battle? Skill cap is one of those things that changes depending on who is argueing and what point they are trying to make.
Agreed. Skill cap is one of those fantasies that people come up with. The skill cap for any race hasn't been reached by any player, and will never be. If you think marine splits are difficult, try spreading creep for the entire game, while ensuring that your macro doesn't slip.
On May 15 2012 02:16 Scootaloo wrote:
Best part is his last paragraph where he advocates making storm 50 damage because otherwise it's imbalanced compared to FG and EMP, completely forgetting that storm doesn't impair movement or drain mana.
Although calling feedback overpowered probably made me laugh the hardest, looks like someone is terrible with ghosts.
It's just balance whine in the wrong thread. HTs are fine. Do you know what would make HTs overpowered?
High Templar movement speed increased from 1.875 to 2.25.
Oh wait. That's the same speed as ghosts.
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On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around
how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.
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On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet. Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.
There might be a reason for that. And anyway, I see mech all the time, just not in TvP, because it is just too hard to pull off. You have to rely too much on the Protoss making many mistakes.
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On May 15 2012 02:29 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet. Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech. There might be a reason for that. And anyway, I see mech all the time, just not in TvP, because it is just too hard to pull off. You have to rely too much on the Protoss making many mistakes.
yeah and there was a reason for zerg one year ago to say Zerg T3 is absolute trash and not worth getting, and still we are here and both T3 is used + infestors.
Thats actually one of those things protoss players were doing better then both Terran and Zerg.
Protoss players as far as i could tell from the beginning were using almost every unit in their arsenal to become more cost effective, because gateway units sucked so much. Even carriers are used despite beeing such a bad unit in design, when it is feasible to transition into them safely.
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On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet. Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.
If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work.
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Forgg- " terran is very bad"
on his stream the other day
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In the end of your post it looks like you agree that someone has to be appointed to deal with balance so that's okay to some extent.
But it can be constructive for normal players to complain about balance too, if they argue with good facts and reasoning. If they never say anything then they can't learn other people's opinions on it or how they could counter. Also there may be some things that pro-players miss, which the community can bring to light and become noticed by pro-gamers, which in turn could turn out to be a balance issue to be dealt with.
I don't like this idea of never complaining about balance...its a pretty obvious factor in how the game plays out, and no one should only see things with one eye and ignore this other half that could turn out to be a problem, even if its unlikely at this point. I think the only relevant aspect is that people who do feel inclined to complain about balance do it thoroughly and think carefully about it. Because it may be that through skill or some other factor that the true unbalance of the game might be mitigated...but that it otherwise could play a real role. You can't always assume the "metagame" (using the incorrect definition) will solve all your problems, because that's like a blind faith. If there are problems that you see then people should point them out as clearly as possible, otherwise no one will be able to work on it in a coordinated way with others.
That said you can do more than one thing at a time. People can point out what they see as unbalanced situations but simultaneously work on finding ways to win against that strategy. Its only the people that dwell on potential balance issues and never make an effort to get better themselves that are problematic.
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This post adds nothing new to anything.
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On May 15 2012 02:35 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet. Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech. If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work.
MarineKing absolutely destroyed Huk with pure mech at MLG Spring Arena 1.
People also said Mutalisks don't work against Protoss and that Motherships are useless.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
Which race do you think is most OP? Why don’t you switch to that race so that you can win more? Isn’t winning nice?
I did and I got promoted 2 leagues :O
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On May 15 2012 02:39 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:35 Heh_ wrote:On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet. Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech. If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work. MarineKing absolutely destroyed Huk with pure mech at MLG Spring Arena 1. People also said Mutalisks don't work against Protoss and that Motherships are useless.
MKP just played a mech TvP on his stream. Guess what.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 15 2012 02:36 Irre wrote:Forgg- " terran is very bad" on his stream the other day
Well the results dont really bear out that statement here are the results of the major tournements this year and the facts simply dont reflect that statement
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Out of the last 13 major finals on only one occasion has a Terran not made it to the final
Prehaps Forgg should change his statment to " Forgg is very bad "
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Lets just hypothetically say the game became, "Balanced."
It wouldn't make you a better player or get you into a higher league all of a sudden, you'll just be another shitty player that plays in a, "Balanced" game as opposed to another shitty player in an imbalanced one.
Seriously, piss off and learn to play better or quit. This game isn't easy.
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On May 15 2012 02:52 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:39 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 15 2012 02:35 Heh_ wrote:On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet. Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech. If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work. MarineKing absolutely destroyed Huk with pure mech at MLG Spring Arena 1. People also said Mutalisks don't work against Protoss and that Motherships are useless. MKP just played a mech TvP on his stream. Guess what. + Show Spoiler +
He also loses as bio to protoss, what's your point?
Mech is an amazing opening to protoss forge fe vs terran these days if you open with banshees to contain then macro up your thors, tanks, and helions.
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On May 14 2012 23:55 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.
I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.
False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you. You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful. No one can figure out the game completely in a couple months. Not even Flash. I'm not sure what "Protoss denial" is, but it just makes you sound like you're on tilt. Got all-in'ed a bit too much on ladder?
You don't have to figure out the game to know that it's imbalanced in it's current state, and no I haven't been "all-in'd too much" on ladder.
Your post is Protoss denial. Red herring argument, and then ad hominem (direct personal attack to substitute having nothing to say) argument all in vain attempts to discredit Flash's analysis. In other words you have no argument and are trying to save face. Keep disrespecting Flash, because a random forum Toss knows best.
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I love how all protoss players think the game is balanced ^_^
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On May 15 2012 03:33 lamiller wrote:
I love how all terran players think the game is imbalanced ^_^
See what I did there?
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On May 15 2012 03:33 lamiller wrote:
I love how all protoss players think the game is balanced ^_^
Not at much as we love the terran players who think the same. They are the best people to play against, because they never blame the game or their race.
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On May 15 2012 03:12 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:55 starfries wrote:On May 14 2012 22:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.
I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.
False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you. You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful. No one can figure out the game completely in a couple months. Not even Flash. I'm not sure what "Protoss denial" is, but it just makes you sound like you're on tilt. Got all-in'ed a bit too much on ladder? You don't have to figure out the game to know that it's imbalanced in it's current state, and no I haven't been "all-in'd too much" on ladder. Your post is Protoss denial. Red herring argument, and then ad hominem (direct personal attack to substitute having nothing to say) argument all in vain attempts to discredit Flash's analysis. In other words you have no argument and are trying to save face. Keep disrespecting Flash, because a random forum Toss knows best.
It's not a serious analysis, it's just some comments he made in an interview. You guys are reading too much into it. And my icon is Protoss but I play random, so... I guess it's Random denial.
Also, I'm not sure where you found a direct personal attack, but if you want to be offended, then ok.
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On May 15 2012 02:32 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:29 CyDe wrote:On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet. Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech. There might be a reason for that. And anyway, I see mech all the time, just not in TvP, because it is just too hard to pull off. You have to rely too much on the Protoss making many mistakes. yeah and there was a reason for zerg one year ago to say Zerg T3 is absolute trash and not worth getting, and still we are here and both T3 is used + infestors. Thats actually one of those things protoss players were doing better then both Terran and Zerg. Protoss players as far as i could tell from the beginning were using almost every unit in their arsenal to become more cost effective, because gateway units sucked so much. Even carriers are used despite beeing such a bad unit in design, when it is feasible to transition into them safely.
Zerg T3 was indeed trash before the infestor buff. Right now it's still trash if it doesn't have infestor support so I dont understand what youre getting at? If anything it's a clear example of something being evidently broken, pro players giving balance feedback, and Blizzard introducing a patch to fix a glaring problem.
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On May 15 2012 02:39 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:35 Heh_ wrote:On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet. Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech. If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work. MarineKing absolutely destroyed Huk with pure mech at MLG Spring Arena 1. People also said Mutalisks don't work against Protoss and that Motherships are useless.
Okay, I HATE when people use that game cause MKP got stupidly far ahead with Hellions cause HuK screwed up. Then MKP barely won even though HuK didn't get charge for the longest time.
It was MUCH more about HuK messing up than MKP winning.
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i love this op,so much qq lately. balance discussion does not make you better, look inward for solutions never outward!
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On May 15 2012 02:36 Irre wrote:Forgg- " terran is very bad" on his stream the other day
Translation; 'I said I'd have taken a GSL already and I'm just an average Korean, but I don't want to blame myself so I'll blame balance. All those bumps of the Elephant thread, for this?!'
But yeah. So many people playing this game on low levels mistake things that are good as things that are imbalanced, just because their race doesn't have it. I think every right minded person can recognise how dumb that kind of thing is, it's just a matter of recognising when we do it ourselves which is harder..
But even in the pro scene, I'd much prefer personally if balance was a secondary issue, because there's nothing you can do about it by whining publicly, and skill among players was really the main focus. Obviously balance is an issue and there should be discussion but I just think it'd be healthier if every so often someone would be like 'hm zerg isn't doing so well in GSL. Why is this?' rather than 'protoss is imbalanced and they continue to buff them BLIZZARD WTF LOL this overlord speed is useless I want damage buffs to all my units then we'll start calling it balanced'.
Which is why I have no problem with Flash stating his opinion in that interview. It amounts to very little other than him saying TvP is pretty hard, I don't think his tone implies he is blaming the game for his losses or begging for buffs/nerfs.
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On May 15 2012 03:12 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:55 starfries wrote:On May 14 2012 22:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.
I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.
False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you. You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful. No one can figure out the game completely in a couple months. Not even Flash. I'm not sure what "Protoss denial" is, but it just makes you sound like you're on tilt. Got all-in'ed a bit too much on ladder? You don't have to figure out the game to know that it's imbalanced in it's current state, and no I haven't been "all-in'd too much" on ladder. Your post is Protoss denial. Red herring argument, and then ad hominem (direct personal attack to substitute having nothing to say) argument all in vain attempts to discredit Flash's analysis. In other words you have no argument and are trying to save face. Keep disrespecting Flash, because a random forum Toss knows best.
Some very sophisticated terms you use, too bad you completely invalidate them by using them yourself. Red herring with your silly "protoss denial" term, that sounds so pretentious and offensive I'm amazed you havn't been warned yet.
And then ofcourse you try to insult him by implying he was saving face and has no argument because in your biased opinion you don't agree. And you seem incredibly emotional, for gods sake calm down and don't unecessarily pick fights.
For the longest time terran has been saying how balanced the game was when only Terrans and DRG where able to win anything significant, the kilotons of terran qq in this thread feels rediculous considering it's history.
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I actually think the best way to balance TvP with warpgate the current mechanic it has is to nerf zealots and archon creation. These two nerfs will not alter the protoss race enough to effect PvZ too much, still make the units cool and fun, and address the real issue with TvP, which is not being able to gain a significant advantage after winning a battle as terran in the late game.
1) Archons take longer to build from 2 HT.. for not costing resources its pretty lame to just on demand make a ton of archons and basically melt a low heatlh bio army after a battle.
2) This is a big/controversial one: Zealots warp in with no shields. It is the most basic gateway unit, and if its built i understand it being full shielded, but in the late game 3/3 zealots warped in with full shields are just far too cost effective and require too much to deal with after a big battle to allow a terran to win a fight and gain an advantage. HT is an investment, having a HT with energy at a base is ok, but requireing sick micro and medivac energy left over after a 200/200 fight is just unrealistic and you need that to even think about pushing a base. I think removing shields from zealots that are warped in in the face fo a terran would go a LONG way to helping the T gain an advantage after winning battles. I DO NOT think this would really effect the early midgame where protoss timings are vulnerable. This is because warping in zealots to reinforce a battle is often fruitless. there are no forcefields left, there is no splash.. stalkers and sentries are far more effective in those battles. Reinforcing zealots are just not that good, and I don't believe would break the matchup with midgame timings. Also, most of the units that deal wtih drops are often stalkers, and zealots only try to buy time/close in units of a dropship until it can be dealt with more efficiently. So basically...zealots wouldnt warp in with shields to reinforce, but they would gain them at a normal rate after that..so if you are prepared for a push ( P Has observers they should know something is coming), they will be prepared to deal, they just can't warp in full upgraded zealots with full shields. I think this would really go a long way to balancing the matchup while at the same time leaving the devastating and dynamic parts of the protoss army ( archons, HT, Collosus/immortals/ etc.) It would also slightly nerf some of the earlier all ins, but not too many of them.
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The OP is insensitive to those who play random and have no allegiance. For instance some people wish to play ZvP but not ZvT yet would play TvZ.
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What's is actually worrying is people honestly thinking Flash is one to blame imbalances for losses and shortcomings and therefore not strive to improve to the best of his ability. If you think that (which the less qq, more pewpew implies), then you honestly don't understand how someone becomes a champion like Flash in the first place. Perhaps you are the ignorant one for saying that Flash is whining instead of improving.
In a fighting game community, low tier mains will often comment on how shot their character is, which is universally agreed upon amongst the community. These low tier players don't believe they deserve to win because they have to play much better on average to wins given match, but they sure as hell will comment on how difficult a matchup is, or how limited your options are. Merely stating difficulties is not te same as whining.
Let's take map balance into account. We know metaloplis is Z favoured ZvT. A Terran player will be the first to say, 'gee, TvZ is simply poorly balanced here.' Your kneejerk response isnt 'shut up fag more gg more skill.' Your response is, 'yeah it is, you'll have to play really well here. Hardly balance qqing to the extent which you imply.
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On May 15 2012 05:59 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:16 Scootaloo wrote:
Best part is his last paragraph where he advocates making storm 50 damage because otherwise it's imbalanced compared to FG and EMP, completely forgetting that storm doesn't impair movement or drain mana. Storm is by far the most powerful. You must move out of the area of effect or else lose your units. So in addition to dealing damage, it indirectly makes the units affected stop firing. Alternately, they die.
Straight up 50 seems like a bit much. Id rather see something like 7(+3 armored) per 0.5 second, instead of 10 per 0.5 second. The main issue is helping marines.
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Fun to do too:
1. Learn to play one race.
2. Learn to off-race a little as the "most-whiny" race. You don't have to put much effort in it, just get to know the race a little and how you should play out the game vs your own race.
3. Whenever someone complains about balance offer them a deal, you play as your off-race (their race) and they play and yours. The winner has proven the other race is OP, because "you both don't know the other race very well".
4a. You play the game, win and joke about your opponent being so Bad they are able to lose with an OP race.
4b. Your opponent refuses and you laugh because you know your opponent doesn't want to play because they are scared of losing, which would prove they are really worse than you.
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What's all this balance whine about? The only thing about protoss that got changed was the observer. Don't use the patch as an opportunity to whine about balance, which is what a bunch of you are doing. HTs did NOT get changed the slightest bit.
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EPT
