EPTSo, I come to TL and read or post my complaints. Isn't that what a forum is for? It's either coming out here in a post or as BM in-game.
Our Misguided Quest for Perfect Balance - Page 3
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
rogzardo
610 Posts
So, I come to TL and read or post my complaints. Isn't that what a forum is for? It's either coming out here in a post or as BM in-game. | ||
|
Ameisenmann
Albania296 Posts
On May 12 2012 05:33 pirsq wrote: The idea is not that any specific player should switch races, but the fact that anyone can switch races. If a race is significantly overpowered, we ought to see a massive imbalance in terms of player population at competitive levels. Since we don't really see that, the conclusion is that no race is significantly overpowered. That's the conclusion you draw? You realize that it's not that easy to switch races? And that there were actually periods of time in GSL where the population was massivly skewed to one race.. | ||
|
Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote: When Boxer started playing BW, everyone thought Terran was underpowered. He responded by innovating and creating new tactics such as his signature high ground siege tank drop. And he didn’t turn out so bad did he? Starcraft 2 has been out for less than two years. Think about how many years passed before the Brood War metagame became stabilized. We still have a long way to go. By complaining about balance, we’re not helping our own cause at all, which is playing the game because we enjoy doing so. You ignore the fact that BW and WC3 exist. Yes it took quite a long time to figure out BW (I dont know anything about WC3). New maps every season were one reason and will keep SC2 interesting, too. Yet SC2 isnt a whole new game with a unique gameplay. It's a sequel and an ordinary RTS game, and although it has a unique style: it still just a RTS. And the people playing it at the pro level have been pro gamers for years, they are not complete noobs who try to learn how to fly an airplane. They are former professional RTS players playing another RTS. With all the knowledge, training routines, mechanical skills they adopted when playing WC3/BW. So it will take them considerably less time to figure out Sc2 than BW or WC3, because they dont have to start from scratch. Each one of them will play a couple of thousands games a year, what do you think will they not be able to figure out anytime soon? in BW the last big metagame change has been, I dont know actually. FFE in pvz by bisu 2006? So I dont really understand your point. When several pro gamers say "there is an imbalance" it is absolutely reasonable to assume that there is in fact an imbalance. That doesnt mean that they dont try different builds or timings. t.t | ||
|
Holophonist
United States297 Posts
On May 12 2012 05:33 pirsq wrote: The idea is not that any specific player should switch races, but the fact that anyone can switch races. If a race is significantly overpowered, we ought to see a massive imbalance in terms of player population at competitive levels. Since we don't really see that, the conclusion is that no race is significantly overpowered. Saying a race is imbalanced isn't the same as saying a race is massively imbalanced. I doubt the races are perfectly represented at the pro level. And besides, the fact that each race plays differently doesn't just mean that I, a loser nobody in diamond, doesn't want to play protoss because it's not as fun... it also means that each race is conducive to certain play styles and certain human personalities. So the stephano zvp style is good for stephano, it may not be good for, say, bomber. | ||
|
CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
Flash hasn't even played this game that long and it's STILL changing. I would value any platinum league player's opinion over his at this point. There isn't really any point to be mentioning whether we should discuss the balance of something or not. It's up to the individual. If you feel that something is imbalanced there isn't any point in saying "no don't express that, go play." Ultimately that is the better solution, but there is not point in strangling people in what they choose to express. | ||
|
KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
goawayplz david kim | ||
|
sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On May 12 2012 07:16 KawaiiRice wrote: I wish Blizzard would take their hands off the game and let it evolve like BW. Seriously theres been infinity more balance patches in SC2 than BW. Why are they playing God when they don't even know what they're doing? goawayplz david kim I agree with the fact that Blizzard seriously needs to take a hands-off approach. Sad thing is they do listen and base their nerf/buffs based on how loud the whiners speak. I'm both a Zerg and protoss player and I clearly remember when zerg whined a LOT post-beta and were constantly getting buffed and P/T constantly nerfed for 7-10 consecutive patches. Then Protoss started to whine post-buffed infestors and suddenly patches start getting geared towards buffing them and nerfing the rest. Blizzard needs to do less balance patches unless absolutely critical (ex: reapers tvz balance issue) | ||
|
NATO
United States459 Posts
| ||
|
IMoperator
4476 Posts
| ||
|
fireproofazn
United States231 Posts
and i agree people need to stop whining about balance and just use their brain for once. after all it is a strategy game. too bad its much easier to QQ than pew pew. | ||
|
Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On May 12 2012 07:16 KawaiiRice wrote: I wish Blizzard would take their hands off the game and let it evolve like BW. Seriously theres been infinity more balance patches in SC2 than BW. Why are they playing God when they don't even know what they're doing? goawayplz david kim Bingo. Aside from obvious changes like the reaper nerf (similar to the spawning pool change in BW in terms of how it impacted the game), they WAY overpatch. | ||
|
GhettoSheep
United States150 Posts
On May 12 2012 05:03 Bulugulu wrote: I've considered long and hard to switch race, especially with the current state of matters (I play terran). But once you reach a certain level - I'm high master atm - it's quite an effort to switch race, and could be months work before you get the same feel for a new race that you have with your main race. Also I continue playing in the hopes that blizzard are in the process of making things right. But it seems that every patch it just gets worse :\. Same. I'd actually considered switching many times but just feel like I would be wasting a lot of time just learning the basic mechanics and all the little nuances that go with each race. I would go from mid masters to maybe low diamond and it could take a long time before the switch pays off. | ||
|
KareKano
16 Posts
this will allow inferior squads to face superior forces and via this, units will gain new roles, at the moment blizzard removed on purpose the moving shots f.e and implemented on purpose acceleration/decceleration attacks for flyings units, and only a few ground units can dance, by moving and shooting~ they did it because they didnt want the casuals to feel bad by being bad mechanically, but it is inevitable, cattering too much for a public that does not enjoy difficulty only hurts the e-sports, and in the long run it will be the people who enjoy the esports who will keep this game alive these features allowed not only greater watchability but artificial balance, via player's mechanical skills | ||
|
CaptTerrible
United States72 Posts
| ||
|
kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
| ||
|
Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
Balancing through maps seems to be the way to go though. The game mechanics are mostly there now. | ||
|
pirsq
Australia145 Posts
On May 12 2012 07:08 Holophonist wrote: Saying a race is imbalanced isn't the same as saying a race is massively imbalanced. I doubt the races are perfectly represented at the pro level. And besides, the fact that each race plays differently doesn't just mean that I, a loser nobody in diamond, doesn't want to play protoss because it's not as fun... it also means that each race is conducive to certain play styles and certain human personalities. So the stephano zvp style is good for stephano, it may not be good for, say, bomber. I want to modify your emphasis slightly: each race is conducive to multiple playstyles. In this regard, it really doesn't make sense to compare zerg to terran, for example. Are we talking about Losira's zerg, which is incredibly weak to bunker rushes? Or Fruitdealer's zerg, which almost never loses to that stuff? Or whoever happens to be the best zerg in the world at the time? Or perhaps some sort of average over all zergs? The average is the only one that makes sense, but how do we construct such an average, and how do we measure success? Tournament winrates suffer massive selection bias - people who win play more games. Ladder winrates are designed to converge to 50%. The only sensible measure, as far as I can tell, is population size at various competitive levels. Whether it's players switching races, or if you find that objectionable, players dropping out to be replaced with new players of different races, by far the best indicator of balance is having a balanced race distribution at the competitive level. But what about racial imbalance in the GSL? It used to be extremely terran dominated, but right now the top is full of protosses (4/8 and 5/8 of the quarterfinals in the last two seasons). There have never been many zergs right at the top, which might make a case for zerg being underpowered, but remember that by only looking at the top 8 players in the competition, we're restricting ourselves to the outliers, which is a terrible way to do statistics. A more reliable measure would be the distribution of players coming through the Code A qualifiers - in the past five seasons, they've been (T/Z/P) 7-7-7, 5-9-6, 5-7-9, 2-5-5, 8-3-2. Looks pretty balanced to me. | ||
|
Xpace
United States2209 Posts
"Why don't you switch to the overpowered race?" Because that doesn't help the game at all -.- | ||
|
ancientmariner
116 Posts
On May 12 2012 07:59 KareKano wrote: I believe real balance will be achieved in star2 only when new micro tricks are discovered, moving shots, patrol attacks, stackings and so on. [...] The feeling that I get with Sc2 is that Blizzard is sadly hindering the potential for units to be microed. Playing protoss, mainly two units come to my mind. The carrier for example does not focus another unit after being pulled back, making it only a "functional" unit when it sits stationary within 6 range of the target. The replacement for the carrier Blizzard was going to put in was even more boring (judging from the video they had of it). Another example would be the colossus which in comparison to the reaver in BW, which fulfills a similar role, is much less demanding when it comes to micro. I fear that Blizzard is limiting the possibilities on purpose, even though I would not understand the reasoning behind that. Of course they want to make the game appealing to all kinds of gamers, but adding more depth to units would not hurt lower level players. I might also be wrong on this, as I'm rather terrible at the game and have a lacking understanding of it. Still I think that Blizzard should not do something about balance in terms of numbers, but in terms of giving the players the chance to balance the game through their own mechanics. Instead of changing races, the solution would be to gain better mechanics. If the game is more demanding in terms of skill it would also enhance it as from a spectator's position. | ||
|
TheBanana
Norway2183 Posts
When people start talking about how certain aspects of their own race is "a little bit strong", that's when start to listen. | ||
| ||
