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Our Misguided Quest for Perfect Balance - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 Next All
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 17:25:39
May 14 2012 17:25 GMT
#181
double post -delete-
CyDe
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1010 Posts
May 14 2012 17:29 GMT
#182
On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around


how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.

There might be a reason for that. And anyway, I see mech all the time, just not in TvP, because it is just too hard to pull off. You have to rely too much on the Protoss making many mistakes.
youtube.com/GamingCyDe-- My totally abandoned youtube channel that I might revisit at some point
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 17:37:56
May 14 2012 17:32 GMT
#183
On May 15 2012 02:29 CyDe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:
On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around


how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.

There might be a reason for that. And anyway, I see mech all the time, just not in TvP, because it is just too hard to pull off. You have to rely too much on the Protoss making many mistakes.


yeah and there was a reason for zerg one year ago to say Zerg T3 is absolute trash and not worth getting, and still we are here and both T3 is used + infestors.

Thats actually one of those things protoss players were doing better then both Terran and Zerg.
Protoss players as far as i could tell from the beginning were using almost every unit in their arsenal to become more cost effective, because gateway units sucked so much. Even carriers are used despite beeing such a bad unit in design, when it is feasible to transition into them safely.
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
May 14 2012 17:35 GMT
#184
On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around


how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.

If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work.
=Þ
Irre
Profile Joined August 2010
United States646 Posts
May 14 2012 17:36 GMT
#185
Forgg- " terran is very bad"

on his stream the other day
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 17:37:20
May 14 2012 17:36 GMT
#186
In the end of your post it looks like you agree that someone has to be appointed to deal with balance so that's okay to some extent.

But it can be constructive for normal players to complain about balance too, if they argue with good facts and reasoning. If they never say anything then they can't learn other people's opinions on it or how they could counter. Also there may be some things that pro-players miss, which the community can bring to light and become noticed by pro-gamers, which in turn could turn out to be a balance issue to be dealt with.

I don't like this idea of never complaining about balance...its a pretty obvious factor in how the game plays out, and no one should only see things with one eye and ignore this other half that could turn out to be a problem, even if its unlikely at this point. I think the only relevant aspect is that people who do feel inclined to complain about balance do it thoroughly and think carefully about it. Because it may be that through skill or some other factor that the true unbalance of the game might be mitigated...but that it otherwise could play a real role. You can't always assume the "metagame" (using the incorrect definition) will solve all your problems, because that's like a blind faith. If there are problems that you see then people should point them out as clearly as possible, otherwise no one will be able to work on it in a coordinated way with others.

That said you can do more than one thing at a time. People can point out what they see as unbalanced situations but simultaneously work on finding ways to win against that strategy. Its only the people that dwell on potential balance issues and never make an effort to get better themselves that are problematic.
Poetic[AoV]
Profile Joined November 2009
United Kingdom183 Posts
May 14 2012 17:37 GMT
#187
This post adds nothing new to anything.
Aeroplaneoverthesea
Profile Joined April 2012
United Kingdom1977 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 17:40:15
May 14 2012 17:39 GMT
#188
On May 15 2012 02:35 Heh_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:
On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around


how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.

If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work.


MarineKing absolutely destroyed Huk with pure mech at MLG Spring Arena 1.

People also said Mutalisks don't work against Protoss and that Motherships are useless.
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
May 14 2012 17:42 GMT
#189
On May 12 2012 04:58 KiRiN wrote:
Which race do you think is most OP? Why don’t you switch to that race so that you can win more? Isn’t winning nice?



I did and I got promoted 2 leagues :O
Torra
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway469 Posts
May 14 2012 17:52 GMT
#190
On May 15 2012 02:39 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 02:35 Heh_ wrote:
On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:
On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around


how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.

If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work.


MarineKing absolutely destroyed Huk with pure mech at MLG Spring Arena 1.

People also said Mutalisks don't work against Protoss and that Motherships are useless.

MKP just played a mech TvP on his stream. Guess what.
+ Show Spoiler +
He got roflstomped.
Topdoller
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom3860 Posts
May 14 2012 17:54 GMT
#191
On May 15 2012 02:36 Irre wrote:
Forgg- " terran is very bad"

on his stream the other day



Well the results dont really bear out that statement here are the results of the major tournements this year and the facts simply dont reflect that statement

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments

Out of the last 13 major finals on only one occasion has a Terran not made it to the final

Prehaps Forgg should change his statment to " Forgg is very bad "
cydial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States750 Posts
May 14 2012 18:00 GMT
#192
Lets just hypothetically say the game became, "Balanced."

It wouldn't make you a better player or get you into a higher league all of a sudden, you'll just be another shitty player that plays in a, "Balanced" game as opposed to another shitty player in an imbalanced one.

Seriously, piss off and learn to play better or quit. This game isn't easy.
cydial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States750 Posts
May 14 2012 18:02 GMT
#193
On May 15 2012 02:52 Torra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 02:39 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On May 15 2012 02:35 Heh_ wrote:
On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:
On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around


how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.

If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work.


MarineKing absolutely destroyed Huk with pure mech at MLG Spring Arena 1.

People also said Mutalisks don't work against Protoss and that Motherships are useless.

MKP just played a mech TvP on his stream. Guess what.
+ Show Spoiler +
He got roflstomped.


He also loses as bio to protoss, what's your point?

Mech is an amazing opening to protoss forge fe vs terran these days if you open with banshees to contain then macro up your thors, tanks, and helions.
DemigodcelpH
Profile Joined August 2011
1138 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 18:12:39
May 14 2012 18:12 GMT
#194
On May 14 2012 23:55 starfries wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2012 22:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.

I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.


False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you.

You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful.

No one can figure out the game completely in a couple months. Not even Flash.

I'm not sure what "Protoss denial" is, but it just makes you sound like you're on tilt. Got all-in'ed a bit too much on ladder?


You don't have to figure out the game to know that it's imbalanced in it's current state, and no I haven't been "all-in'd too much" on ladder.

Your post is Protoss denial. Red herring argument, and then ad hominem (direct personal attack to substitute having nothing to say) argument all in vain attempts to discredit Flash's analysis. In other words you have no argument and are trying to save face. Keep disrespecting Flash, because a random forum Toss knows best.
lamiller
Profile Joined September 2011
United States92 Posts
May 14 2012 18:33 GMT
#195
I love how all protoss players think the game is balanced ^_^
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
May 14 2012 18:38 GMT
#196
On May 15 2012 03:33 lamiller wrote:
I love how all terran players think the game is imbalanced ^_^

See what I did there?
=Þ
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 14 2012 18:39 GMT
#197
On May 15 2012 03:33 lamiller wrote:
I love how all protoss players think the game is balanced ^_^


Not at much as we love the terran players who think the same. They are the best people to play against, because they never blame the game or their race.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
starfries
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada3508 Posts
May 14 2012 18:42 GMT
#198
On May 15 2012 03:12 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2012 23:55 starfries wrote:
On May 14 2012 22:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On May 14 2012 22:31 urashimakt wrote:
He has played the game for like what, a few weeks? A couple months total? If you watch the footage available on his play, it's very basic at this point. Lots of marines, lots of medivacs, and a few siege tanks. Pushes with his macro until the opponent wears out.

I know he's a great player and, quite frankly, a legend, but when it comes to SC2 he's got no position from which to call balance into question. When he gets to be on the cutting edge and everyone starts talking about the latest Flash Build it might be different.


False. He got his MMR to KR GM level in a mere month. If anyone is qualified to talk about balance it would be Flash. Conversely the one who isn't qualified to discredit Flash's analysis is you.

You're going to have to try harder. No amount of Protoss denial can hide the truth unfortunately, though it's quite pathetic that it's gotten to the point where they're even saying God's word doesn't matter to save face. How disrespectful.

No one can figure out the game completely in a couple months. Not even Flash.

I'm not sure what "Protoss denial" is, but it just makes you sound like you're on tilt. Got all-in'ed a bit too much on ladder?


You don't have to figure out the game to know that it's imbalanced in it's current state, and no I haven't been "all-in'd too much" on ladder.

Your post is Protoss denial. Red herring argument, and then ad hominem (direct personal attack to substitute having nothing to say) argument all in vain attempts to discredit Flash's analysis. In other words you have no argument and are trying to save face. Keep disrespecting Flash, because a random forum Toss knows best.

It's not a serious analysis, it's just some comments he made in an interview. You guys are reading too much into it. And my icon is Protoss but I play random, so... I guess it's Random denial.

Also, I'm not sure where you found a direct personal attack, but if you want to be offended, then ok.
DJ – do you like ramen, Savior? Savior – not really. Bisu – I eat it often. Flash – I’m a maniac! | Foxer Fighting!
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
May 14 2012 18:44 GMT
#199
On May 15 2012 02:32 freetgy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 02:29 CyDe wrote:
On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:
On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around


how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.

There might be a reason for that. And anyway, I see mech all the time, just not in TvP, because it is just too hard to pull off. You have to rely too much on the Protoss making many mistakes.


yeah and there was a reason for zerg one year ago to say Zerg T3 is absolute trash and not worth getting, and still we are here and both T3 is used + infestors.

Thats actually one of those things protoss players were doing better then both Terran and Zerg.
Protoss players as far as i could tell from the beginning were using almost every unit in their arsenal to become more cost effective, because gateway units sucked so much. Even carriers are used despite beeing such a bad unit in design, when it is feasible to transition into them safely.

Zerg T3 was indeed trash before the infestor buff. Right now it's still trash if it doesn't have infestor support so I dont understand what youre getting at? If anything it's a clear example of something being evidently broken, pro players giving balance feedback, and Blizzard introducing a patch to fix a glaring problem.
Dodge arrows
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
May 14 2012 18:48 GMT
#200
On May 15 2012 02:39 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 02:35 Heh_ wrote:
On May 15 2012 02:24 freetgy wrote:
On May 15 2012 00:27 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Obviously Sc2 is a new game, and it would be incredibly naiive to believe it was perfectly balanced. Plus some things are clearly unfair or require too much of a skill gap to compensate for. with your reasoning 5 rax reapers would still be around


how can a game be perfectly balanced, when not all strategies are explored yet.
Hell Terran race almost completely refuse to play anykind of mech.

If you're talking about going mech in TvP, many people have tried it. The pros quickly realized that it didn't work, and stopped doing it. The wannabes are still trying because they think that mech is unexplored (because pros aren't using it) and don't seem to realize that it doesn't work.


MarineKing absolutely destroyed Huk with pure mech at MLG Spring Arena 1.

People also said Mutalisks don't work against Protoss and that Motherships are useless.


Okay, I HATE when people use that game cause MKP got stupidly far ahead with Hellions cause HuK screwed up. Then MKP barely won even though HuK didn't get charge for the longest time.

It was MUCH more about HuK messing up than MKP winning.
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