EPTInterview with Flash about SC2 - Page 63
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:00 Shadow_Dog wrote: IMO warpgate should be removed and the only warp in should be warprism. Why is warpgate in SC2 to begin with? No warpage would probably make PvP better as well. I have played pretty much all relevant RTS games since like WC2, and not even in games like Command and Conquer were you can wipe entire bases with super weapons, i have found similar mechanics. You see, the issue isn’t about the "warping" thing in itself, and in fact theoretically speaking it’s an interesting mechanic. The problem is that it’s pretty much pants on the head retarded that warping in units is actually more efficient than using normal gates. Anyone even moderately sensible should figure out that warpins need to have a drawback, the more obvious balance would be that using warps would actually overload and shutdown the gate for X amount of time, thus increasing the overall build time of new units, not decrease it as it is now.... Btw I am not hinting this as a nerf for now,; I am just saying that this mechanic was badly thought out without regard to basic RTS design. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
his warpgate complaints obviously stem from normal gateways in BW. compared to BW of course warpgates are OP, but SC2 is a entirely different game and he has to realize that sooner or later. SC2 is still young. BW had like 12+ years to balance it self out, SC2 is still only 2 years old with 2 more expansions incoming (HoTS and LoTV). we will get there. speaking of warpgates, that can also be balanced out with time. 50/50 for such a GAME CHANGING upgrade for example is hilariously cheap. the warp in times can also be a bit longer. we still have time to balance the game guys so chill. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13410 Posts
On May 15 2012 07:51 Ballistixz wrote: imo the reason for flashes balance complaints is that he is comparing it to BW which is a HUGE mistake. infact, most ppl that complain about balance in SC2 is always comparing it to BW because they were BW players. BW is tons more balanced then SC2 is right now, that is a fact and there is no getting around it. flash needs to accept that fact if he will be playing SC2 as a pro player. his warpgate complaints obviously stem from normal gateways in BW. compared to BW of course warpgates are OP, but SC2 is a entirely different game and he has to realize that sooner or later. SC2 is still young. BW had like 12+ years to balance it self out, SC2 is still only 2 years old with 2 more expansions incoming (HoTS and LoTV). we will get there. People complain about imbalance way too much. In BW there were periods of race dominance and without changes, though it took a very long time, things shifted, ebbed and flowed. I think to argue that SC2 is younger and so isn't balanced yet is wrong. Instead i think its fair to say that innovation that will lead to players creating balance still hasn't happened as much as it can. Oh well, amazing games will come, and someone will shift TvP into terran favour again at a high level again soon im sure. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 15 2012 07:51 Ballistixz wrote: imo the reason for flashes balance complaints is that he is comparing it to BW which is a HUGE mistake. infact, most ppl that complain about balance in SC2 is always comparing it to BW because they were BW players. BW is tons more balanced then SC2 is right now, that is a fact and there is no getting around it. flash needs to accept that fact if he will be playing SC2 as a pro player. his warpgate complaints obviously stem from normal gateways in BW. compared to BW of course warpgates are OP, but SC2 is a entirely different game and he has to realize that sooner or later. SC2 is still young. BW had like 12+ years to balance it self out, SC2 is still only 2 years old with 2 more expansions incoming (HoTS and LoTV). we will get there. speaking of warpgates, that can also be balanced out with time. 50/50 for such a GAME CHANGING upgrade for example is hilariously cheap. the warp in times can also be a bit longer. we still have time to balance the game guys so chill. The last Brood War balance patch was 1.08, which was in 2001. It's not like it took 12 years for it to become balanced. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 15 2012 09:22 GolemMadness wrote: The last Brood War balance patch was 1.08, which was in 2001. It's not like it took 12 years for it to become balanced. Balance patches were not what balanced broodwar. The maps did. So yes, it is like it took 12 years for it to become balanced. | ||
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Telsh
United States148 Posts
On May 15 2012 07:02 Alexstrasas wrote: I have played pretty much all relevant RTS games since like WC2, and not even in games like Command and Conquer were you can wipe entire bases with super weapons, i have found similar mechanics. You see, the issue isn’t about the "warping" thing in itself, and in fact theoretically speaking it’s an interesting mechanic. The problem is that it’s pretty much pants on the head retarded that warping in units is actually more efficient than using normal gates. Anyone even moderately sensible should figure out that warpins need to have a drawback, the more obvious balance would be that using warps would actually overload and shutdown the gate for X amount of time, thus increasing the overall build time of new units, not decrease it as it is now.... Btw I am not hinting this as a nerf for now,; I am just saying that this mechanic was badly thought out without regard to basic RTS design. It actually does increase the time needed. its +10-20 sec for all of the units. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
On May 15 2012 13:59 Telsh wrote: It actually does increase the time needed. its +10-20 sec for all of the units. No, it actually does reduce the time. I've always thought that was weird too... | ||
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ActionpointTV
60 Posts
On May 15 2012 07:02 Alexstrasas wrote: I have played pretty much all relevant RTS games since like WC2, and not even in games like Command and Conquer were you can wipe entire bases with super weapons, i have found similar mechanics. You see, the issue isn’t about the "warping" thing in itself, and in fact theoretically speaking it’s an interesting mechanic. The problem is that it’s pretty much pants on the head retarded that warping in units is actually more efficient than using normal gates. Anyone even moderately sensible should figure out that warpins need to have a drawback, the more obvious balance would be that using warps would actually overload and shutdown the gate for X amount of time, thus increasing the overall build time of new units, not decrease it as it is now.... Btw I am not hinting this as a nerf for now,; I am just saying that this mechanic was badly thought out without regard to basic RTS design. The most logical thing would be, if units were actually build at place of warping, instead of instantly appearing there, then it would have its own risks, as units will be vulnerable during the time of warping and player would have to decide: do I warp them in, with the risk of losing units and resources if something goes wrong, or I safely build them in my gates, as every other race do. | ||
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Kich
United States339 Posts
On May 15 2012 13:59 Telsh wrote: It actually does increase the time needed. its +10-20 sec for all of the units. Incorrect, it's substantially faster to produce units from warp-ins. Otherwise people wouldn't use them. But that would be a strategic choice right, one that would make sense--as a protoss player I've always felt that Warp-Gate's being the default method of bringing units in was silly. It would make more sense if warping units in was to some degree slower than building them from normal gateways, and using gateways offensively with offensive pylons was a decision made by the player... Even if it takes longer to warp units in, you're warping them in across the map or exactly where they -need- to be right -now-, you'd still be getting them there faster almost entirely on the premise of walk speed and travel distance, yet right now it's easy to overwhelm someone with constant warp-ins because there is absolutely no travel time for the army. This would also encourage more warp prism usage as a mainstay in the protoss army--being able to warp in units directly into your army is a powerful ability. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 15 2012 13:53 convention wrote: Balance patches were not what balanced broodwar. The maps did. So yes, it is like it took 12 years for it to become balanced. So it only just became balanced two years ago? What are you even talking about? | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 15 2012 14:29 Kich wrote: Incorrect, it's substantially faster to produce units from warp-ins. Otherwise people wouldn't use them. But that would be a strategic choice right, one that would make sense--as a protoss player I've always felt that Warp-Gate's being the default method of bringing units in was silly. It would make more sense if warping units in was to some degree slower than building them from normal gateways, and using gateways offensively with offensive pylons was a decision made by the player... Even if it takes longer to warp units in, you're warping them in across the map or exactly where they -need- to be right -now-, you'd still be getting them there faster almost entirely on the premise of walk speed and travel distance, yet right now it's easy to overwhelm someone with constant warp-ins because there is absolutely no travel time for the army. This would also encourage more warp prism usage as a mainstay in the protoss army--being able to warp in units directly into your army is a powerful ability. I think warp in time should be much longer (by that i mean the actual time it takes to warp in). It makes no sense that a unit warping in from a pylon is instant compared to "warping in" through a gateway. Even if it was, pay for the unit, wait for the cooldown, then warp in 5 sec. Having a full warp in time would be better though, because it would create a dynamic where the enemy could kill the units while they were warping in, so you couldn't be ridiculously aggressive with pylons. Reason warpgates are too strong. 50/50 research No travel distance but also the one everybody forgets +1 cycle of units ahead of the opponent, which makes a huge difference. Imagine if you looked at every engagement and said, imagine if that guy had one extra round of units, its a complete game changer. In lategame Protoss essentially has a 250/200 army, with the instantaneous cycle. Even BW PvT would be broken with just this feature, Terran could never push after an engagement. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Since the parallel league was forced on the players there are concerns that your BW skills might deteriorate. It's unavoidable. I think that is a problem. So I'm working harder but I'm still worried. The fans might be disappointed in my play... I think I definitely won't be able to play as well as before. yeah guys, this smells like disappointment for fans of the both games, clearly not a good decision by Kespa. And his cries about balance are not really needed since he is playing the strongest race in BW. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
We should actually wait till people try out all, or most of their options before QQing about imbalance? What happened to Ravens? Seeker missile would probably make a toss think twice about charging or clumping Zealots, turrets in front of your army, PDD for Stalkers killing your Vikings + Medivacs. Where are the Hellions or Reapers? (vs. Zealots). Ghosts, EMP and Snipe are amazing vs. Protoss, esp Zealots and HT's. We haven't even seen Mech fully explored in TvP nor any other match up. I just can't see any justification for any true concern on balance right now. David Kim talks about the Terran's versatility and diversity and how they need to use it play to their benefit, specifically early - mid, THATS what he is talking about - Terran needs to USE what they HAVE. People are blowing this out of proportion, it's a swing in the meta game, did everyone forget how long Terran was on top, and how much everyone struggled, despite the T nerfs and P and Z buffs? Figure some new strats out, try something new, thats what this game is about. Sorry to say, but this also happened with the EMP and Snipe nerf. Protoss and Zerg cried balance, everyone went buck wild, and Terran got nerfed for it, and I hardly think it was necessary. It plays a factor in this obv. but EMP and Snipe are still very effective vs. Toss, so it's not of too much importance here IMO. | ||
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Rokit5
236 Posts
On May 12 2012 04:50 Dave. wrote: "I really like Marauders and Marines. I think their micro fits my style." Somebody put Artosis on suicide watch. Dont worry. Hes got a super gosu kid to raise now  | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 15 2012 13:59 Telsh wrote: It actually does increase the time needed. its +10-20 sec for all of the units. No it isn't. It reduces the time. The reason is that Blizzard stated they wanted Protoss to always have warpgates since the beginning of the game. They just wanted that to be a facet of the race. However, starting off with warpgate obviously poses some obvious problems, so they introduced the warp gate mechanic. That's why it was only 50s during the beta - so you could get it basically as soon as you had core. They didn't anticipate the issues it would bring. They said they simply intended for Protoss to always be on warpgates and gateways became an unfortunate side effect. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
My whole point is that i want something new and exiting with quality. | ||
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Bub
United States3518 Posts
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theinfamousone
United States103 Posts
On May 15 2012 16:06 FabledIntegral wrote: No it isn't. It reduces the time. The reason is that Blizzard stated they wanted Protoss to always have warpgates since the beginning of the game. They just wanted that to be a facet of the race. However, starting off with warpgate obviously poses some obvious problems, so they introduced the warp gate mechanic. That's why it was only 50s during the beta - so you could get it basically as soon as you had core. They didn't anticipate the issues it would bring. They said they simply intended for Protoss to always be on warpgates and gateways became an unfortunate side effect. I think he's including the time it actually takes for the unit to appear there. With that included, it's about the same. At any rate, adding time to cool down would simply require an extra 150 minerals to build one more gateway to counter the increased build time. In some circumstances, like a 4 gate rush (would require 5 gates), that would be a big deal, but most of the time, that's only like 6 seconds of mining or so on 1 base which, in a macro game isn't too game changing. Full disclosure: I play random.... The warp in mechanic, just like forcefields are essential for Protoss to ever win a game past gold/platinum league. TvP especially would be nye impossible as dropships would be instawin for terrans every single game. Terrans need to get used to scouting (scan or marine scout) the protoss army composition late game and get the correct number of vikings/ghosts. At the highest levels, I don't see much of a balance issue TvP late game. That being said, the (many) EMP nerf(s) may have been a little too extreme. It used to be much too good to just be able to build a ghost and without researching an energy upgrade or spell, have the ability to eliminate shields and energy and decloak all protoss units as soon as it's built which essentially nullfies immortals, HT, and with 2 or 3, archons. But as it stands right now, terran do need some kind of AoE beyond the pitiful EMP radius as it exists now imo. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 15 2012 16:30 theinfamousone wrote: I think he's including the time it actually takes for the unit to appear there. With that included, it's about the same. At any rate, adding time to cool down would simply require an extra 150 minerals to build one more gateway to counter the increased build time. In some circumstances, like a 4 gate rush (would require 5 gates), that would be a big deal, but most of the time, that's only like 6 seconds of mining or so on 1 base which, in a macro game isn't too game changing. Full disclosure: I play random.... The warp in mechanic, just like forcefields are essential for Protoss to ever win a game past gold/platinum league. TvP especially would be nye impossible as dropships would be instawin for terrans every single game. Terrans need to get used to scouting (scan or marine scout) the protoss army composition late game and get the correct number of vikings/ghosts. At the highest levels, I don't see much of a balance issue TvP late game. That being said, the (many) EMP nerf(s) may have been a little too extreme. It used to be much too good to just be able to build a ghost and without researching an energy upgrade or spell, have the ability to eliminate shields and energy and decloak all protoss units as soon as it's built which essentially nullfies immortals, HT, and with 2 or 3, archons. But as it stands right now, terran do need some kind of AoE beyond the pitiful EMP radius as it exists now imo. Warp in time is irrelevant because cooldown starts immediately after start to warp in the unit. | ||
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