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On May 24 2012 06:47 Geos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 05:13 roym899 wrote:
I wonder how accurate this MMR really is. Because I won 9 games against Diamond opponents in a row not affecting the graph at all. Then I lost 7 time in a row and I felt down quite heavily. Is this normal? (I'm mid - high diamond according to ladder points although I still get some High Platinum opponents) Yeah I'm a Diamond player and it is not always obvious the correlation between winning/losing and the graph behavior. I will often see my MMR go down during a winning streak and up during a losing streak. However I trust it is still better than nothing and the creators are continuing to improve the accuracy.
When explain whym i need 20 pages ^^ Here is the short version:
There is deviation. I dont show it in the graph to make it less complicated.
There is no way around it, it will never be 100% accurate.
Also i can analyse the tier of the opponent wrong and give you wrong mmr in one game.
The next unstable version will have filter options, to filter out data that you can not trust 100% to increase the accuracy.
I work on ways to improve this.
We dont know the offset 100% but will soon with more data.
Diamond is worst at the moment and server like eu, us , sea , kr from best data to worse
The main point is: this equal out over time!
So if you dont look at the last game, if you look at the average the mistake equal out and we are very accurate again.
Have a look at my graph :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pS5Rh.png)
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United States12240 Posts
On May 24 2012 06:42 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 06:38 Malhavoc wrote:
I've looked around, but I'm still not totally sure, so I'll ask: is Tier 0 the one in that division getting max "free" ladder points, or is it the one getting none? Am I right saying that the one getting less "free" points should be the one having an average higher MMR, and thus being closer to promotion? The problem is that we (excalibur , sdream, me¬hat ) use diffrent names. 1) See it more like; they dont give free points , they steal less points T0 = lowest offset in the division = most points stolen = highest skill ( at the moment of promotion only) Most have higher mmr compare to all players in other tiers in same league. Because you cant switch tiers the mmr of the promotion day counts. I give them the points back blizzard take away This is all taken into account in the graph so you are where the dot is and dont have to calculate your tier in. Blzzard calc your mmr than use the f funtion to change your points, than give you bonuspoints than take away the offset of your league than take away the offset of your tier. We undo all of this to find the mmr again.
To clarify this, a lower tier number means a higher skill level. We've gone through various naming conventions (SABCDEF, 1234567, and I guess skeldark you're now starting from 0) but the core meaning is the same.
I also want to mention that we use positive point offsets only temporarily because we're determining offsets from the top of the ladder downward. In reality what the ladder most likely does is negatively impact points at higher skill levels. The end result is the same: normalized point values across a given league, and ultimately across the entire ladder. However, it's probably more accurate to say that instead of a player in Diamond Tier 4 having 1000+700 points, he actually has 3100-1400 points. I'll probably make a revision to the Ladder Guide which reflects this after all the offsets have been discovered.
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On May 24 2012 07:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 06:42 skeldark wrote:On May 24 2012 06:38 Malhavoc wrote:
I've looked around, but I'm still not totally sure, so I'll ask: is Tier 0 the one in that division getting max "free" ladder points, or is it the one getting none? Am I right saying that the one getting less "free" points should be the one having an average higher MMR, and thus being closer to promotion? The problem is that we (excalibur , sdream, me¬hat ) use diffrent names. 1) See it more like; they dont give free points , they steal less points T0 = lowest offset in the division = most points stolen = highest skill ( at the moment of promotion only) Most have higher mmr compare to all players in other tiers in same league. Because you cant switch tiers the mmr of the promotion day counts. I give them the points back blizzard take away This is all taken into account in the graph so you are where the dot is and dont have to calculate your tier in. Blzzard calc your mmr than use the f funtion to change your points, than give you bonuspoints than take away the offset of your league than take away the offset of your tier. We undo all of this to find the mmr again. To clarify this, a lower tier number means a higher skill level. We've gone through various naming conventions (SABCDEF, 1234567, and I guess skeldark you're now starting from 0) but the core meaning is the same. I also want to mention that we use positive point offsets only temporarily because we're determining offsets from the top of the ladder downward. In reality what the ladder most likely does is negatively impact points at higher skill levels. The end result is the same: normalized point values across a given league, and ultimately across the entire ladder. However, it's probably more accurate to say that instead of a player in Diamond Tier 4 having 1000+700 points, he actually has 3100-1400 points. I'll probably make a revision to the Ladder Guide which reflects this after all the offsets have been discovered.
Exactly.
We have to find norms for the names.
I start with 0 up only because im used to do so in Arrays  and i disliked the bw-system even in the old days (s greater a but b smaller a confuse me)
We normalised some names with Sdream:
MMR: your real mmr that takes everything into account
DMMR: MMR without league and tier offsets
Adjusted points : Points without bonus
Points: the points you see at the ladder.
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Thanks, very clear!  So, I may be a low silver, but at least I'm a f**king powerful Tier 0 .. or at least I was at the beginning of the season.. not sure I would be considered so after that unfortunate 15 losses in 18 games 
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On May 24 2012 07:21 Malhavoc wrote:Thanks, very clear! So, I may be a low silver, but at least I'm a f**king powerful Tier 0 .. or at least I was at the beginning of the season.. not sure I would be considered so after that unfortunate 15 losses in 18 games
The system likes to fill t0 at the start of a session. We dont know why yet.
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Warning! Warning!
Confusion detected
I think ExcaliburZ and Malhavoc understood it wrong.
For example, diamond tier S = t6 here; dia tier F = t0.
Plat tier S = t2; plat tier B = t0.
The lowest (closest to bronze) is t0, instead of the highest (S) (closest to masters). They can both be used, as they have opposite purposes.
S is like Super, it's like the zero here. It's pretty common in video-games. S Rank > A Rank > B rank etc
Or do I understood it wrong? o.o
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On May 24 2012 07:30 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 07:21 Malhavoc wrote:Thanks, very clear! So, I may be a low silver, but at least I'm a f**king powerful Tier 0 .. or at least I was at the beginning of the season.. not sure I would be considered so after that unfortunate 15 losses in 18 games The system likes to fill t0 at the start of a session. We dont know why yet.
I think I know why and I forgot to tell the other half of the story. It is true for plat and diamond only, as gold is even and bronze, silver are the opposite, they start from S rank.
Why? Here is why:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5w92j.jpg)
Because for promotions and demotions there is the buffer, moving average stabilizing etc, chances are the buffer alone is higher than 63 and that's why people aren't almost never promoted to the t0.
For placement, the system only uses the MMR, so t0 is used as intended.
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United States12240 Posts
On May 24 2012 08:31 SDream wrote:Warning! Warning! Confusion detected I think ExcaliburZ and Malhavoc understood it wrong. For example, diamond tier S = t6 here; dia tier F = t0. Plat tier S = t2; plat tier B = t0. The lowest (closest to bronze) is t0, instead of the highest (S) (closest to masters). They can both be used, as they have opposite purposes. S is like Super, it's like the zero here. It's pretty common in video-games. S Rank > A Rank > B rank etc Or do I understood it wrong? o.o
Oh? Skeldark just said that lower number = lower offset (e.g. t0 has lowest offset) which would mean it's the highest skill. Higher offsets are awarded to weaker divisions.
The S > A > B thing is common in videogames yes.
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Hey,
I have a Taiwan account that I ladder on and whenever I try to veiw my profile on battle.net it says "/zh/" instead of the prefered "/en/" in the url... So i get this error message
+ Show Spoiler +
16:34:37 Game Start detected
16:34:56 ERROR Webgrabber: "1" Cant catch Site 1 giveup!
16:35:15 ERROR Webgrabber: "2" Cant catch Site 1 giveup!
16:35:15 ERROR Webgrabber: Preplayer 1 failed!
16:35:15 ERROR Webgrabber: Preplayer 2 failed!
16:41:47 ERROR Webgrabber: "UniCTool" Cant catch Site 1 giveup!
16:42:0 ERROR Webgrabber: "hOsySpC" Cant catch Site 1 giveup!
16:42:0 DATAERROR Webgrabber Postplayer1 failed!
16:42:0 DATAERROR Webgrabber Postplayer2 failed!
16:42:0 DATAERROR Check_before 1+2: Postgrabber failed!
16:42:0 DATAERROR Aftercheck : Both players invalid
16:42:0 ERROR Bad Game
16:42:0 Ladder Game Done!
How do I view my battle.net profile in english??!
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Hey Skeldark,
I tried switching my TW account to the Korean equivalent profile link. The issue I have no is although it can look up the website the program detects it being different to that provided in the link in the config settings.
Here's the log.
+ Show Spoiler +9:28:48 MMR-Calculator 2.2.2 UNSTABLE
9:28:49 Versionchecker: Version up to date
9:28:50 OK Gameobserver: running!
9:28:50 OK Timeclient: Systemtime offset: 3 sec
9:38:5 --------------------------
9:38:5 Game Start detected
9:38:5 ERROR: RAMSCANNER dont fit with selected Bnet-Profile
9:38:5 Perhaps its just a custom game...
10:2:32 FATALERROR PROFILE in Active Account dont fit Replay profile!
10:2:32 ERROR Bad Game
10:2:32 Ladder Game Done!
10:2:32 --------------------------
Any way we can get tw working?
Cheers.
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On May 24 2012 08:47 Tool_julian wrote:Hey, I have a Taiwan account that I ladder on and whenever I try to veiw my profile on battle.net it says "/zh/" instead of the prefered "/en/" in the url... So i get this error message + Show Spoiler +
16:34:37 Game Start detected
16:34:56 ERROR Webgrabber: "1" Cant catch Site 1 giveup!
16:35:15 ERROR Webgrabber: "2" Cant catch Site 1 giveup!
16:35:15 ERROR Webgrabber: Preplayer 1 failed!
16:35:15 ERROR Webgrabber: Preplayer 2 failed!
16:41:47 ERROR Webgrabber: "UniCTool" Cant catch Site 1 giveup!
16:42:0 ERROR Webgrabber: "hOsySpC" Cant catch Site 1 giveup!
16:42:0 DATAERROR Webgrabber Postplayer1 failed!
16:42:0 DATAERROR Webgrabber Postplayer2 failed!
16:42:0 DATAERROR Check_before 1+2: Postgrabber failed!
16:42:0 DATAERROR Aftercheck : Both players invalid
16:42:0 ERROR Bad Game
16:42:0 Ladder Game Done!
How do I view my battle.net profile in english??!
not the korean one
the korean one you enter with
kr and lag: ko
I automatic replace it in next version.
however kr is bugged at the moment.
On May 24 2012 09:05 Peleus wrote:Hey Skeldark, I tried switching my TW account to the Korean equivalent profile link. The issue I have no is although it can look up the website the program detects it being different to that provided in the link in the config settings. Here's the log. + Show Spoiler +9:28:48 MMR-Calculator 2.2.2 UNSTABLE
9:28:49 Versionchecker: Version up to date
9:28:50 OK Gameobserver: running!
9:28:50 OK Timeclient: Systemtime offset: 3 sec
9:38:5 --------------------------
9:38:5 Game Start detected
9:38:5 ERROR: RAMSCANNER dont fit with selected Bnet-Profile
9:38:5 Perhaps its just a custom game...
10:2:32 FATALERROR PROFILE in Active Account dont fit Replay profile!
10:2:32 ERROR Bad Game
10:2:32 Ladder Game Done!
10:2:32 -------------------------- Any way we can get tw working? Cheers.
can you show me your profile link and the ramscanner output?
Can it be, that you selected another profile in the select box top left before you start the ladder game?
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EDIT : check pm
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WOW. This is so cool. Installing it now. Can't wait to see where my mmr is. Thank-you so much!
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On May 24 2012 08:43 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 08:31 SDream wrote:Warning! Warning! Confusion detected I think ExcaliburZ and Malhavoc understood it wrong. For example, diamond tier S = t6 here; dia tier F = t0. Plat tier S = t2; plat tier B = t0. The lowest (closest to bronze) is t0, instead of the highest (S) (closest to masters). They can both be used, as they have opposite purposes. S is like Super, it's like the zero here. It's pretty common in video-games. S Rank > A Rank > B rank etc Or do I understood it wrong? o.o Oh? Skeldark just said that lower number = lower offset (e.g. t0 has lowest offset) which would mean it's the highest skill. Higher offsets are awarded to weaker divisions. The S > A > B thing is common in videogames yes.
High low depends on offset or skill...
But T0 highest skill = lowest offset , near to higher league in skill , near to lower league in offset.
So T0 = S
I confuse myself with it all the time.
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Ok, this image is the one that made me believe the opposite:
http://postimage.org/image/afi62eww7/
Are you sure this is how it is in the plugin? Can you triple check XD
Edit: Not_that, come here, I need a 4th opinion
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On May 24 2012 10:52 SDream wrote:Ok, this image is the one that made me believe the opposite: http://postimage.org/image/afi62eww7/Are you sure this is how it is in the plugin? Can you triple check XD Edit: Not_that, come here, I need a 4th opinion
AH yes.
Mhhhhhhhhhh.
Damit confused again.
Ok so i add to t0 guys always the lowest tier value! + the league value.
because blizzard take lowest away.
That means they dont have much skill
Also they need a lot of dmmr to get promoted.
Ok i think you are right, i messed it up again.
T0 is last one , highest number higher skill.
I had this discussion with notthat 2 or 3 times. I always forget my own standards.
I wonder how i am able to code the right thing when i think the wrong.
Perhaps two different part of my brain do this work lol.
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Chimming in on the convention issue:
Intuitively we want to think of higher leagues as having higher offsets. For example we would expect Master offset > Diamond offset. And to repeat what Skeletor said earlier, this offset is being taken away from the player's true MMR value to get his DMMR. The higher league you are, the more Blizzard takes away from your true MMR.
Diamond tier with the highest skill and lowest points, would actually have the highest 'offset'. If Blizzard takes from low Diamond 1000 points and from Master 1535 points, then Blizzard takes from highest skill Diamond tier 1378 points. So far this is fact. Now comes the convention part:
Since these fit on a scale nicely with intuitive progression of Diamond low skill -> Diamond high skill -> Master, I find it intuitive to label them low # -> high # -> Master, and that's what I did in the photo SDream linked.
I would probably start counting from T1 and not T0, but I have no strong preference either way. Either way in my labeling system T1 Diamond would be a low skill tier which has more points than T6 Diamond which is a high skill tier with low points. Again, it's not that T1 offset is higher than T6, it's that T1 offset is lower, therefor Blizzard takes away less points from T1.
So which do you rather see?
-------------------------------1000--------------1378--------1535----------
1) LOW SKILL --- T6 Diamond - T1 Diamond - Master --- HIGH SKILL
2) LOW SKILL --- T1 Diamond - T6 Diamond - Master --- HIGH SKILL
I prefer the second.
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I've been running this program for the past week and been promoted and demoted from bronze to silver a couple of times out of the 100 games played. Mostly Worker rushing. Am I helping you guys out (just the promotion match or any and all data help even if I just win and lose in 2 minutes but stay bronze?)?
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On May 24 2012 15:12 xxgeffxx wrote:
I've been running this program for the past week and been promoted and demoted from bronze to silver a couple of times out of the 100 games played. Mostly Worker rushing. Am I helping you guys out (just the promotion match or any and all data help even if I just win and lose in 2 minutes but stay bronze?)?
every game counts. bronze is good because we dont have many bronze games and bronze and dia is hardest to calculate.
Btw i loose win trade all the time with leaving but more to debug my prog ^^.
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On May 24 2012 06:19 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 05:54 roym899 wrote:
So should I always check "analyse data??" Yes. the options is only there because of history and for the guys who care for their dmmr for whatever reason.
What is DMMR?
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It's MMR but without taking into account league and tiers offsets. It's the result of F function before applying offsets.
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EPT
