Official vVv Gaming Introduction Thread - Page 10

On December 12 2012 01:05 Zennith wrote:
So at the end of the day, I don't actually dislike vVv. Nor do I dislike what you're trying to do as a team - there is obviously value to academy teams and such (hell, my team is starting one up ourselves). I think the thing that gets me is the marketing. I think it's great that teams are getting better at marketing themselves, but I think sometimes with vVv that marketing becomes disingenuous. For instance, the most recent pickup for vVv made it seem like the guy was a pro player with many fans. I know I'd barely even heard his name before, and I follow the NA scene as much as anybody does.

The truth is that vVv is essentially a mid-tier NA team - probably most comparable with teams like OG and Optik, and lagging a little bit behind teams like LighT and FXO - NA/Legion in terms of sc2 skill. You guys do a good job of marketing yourselves, and I suppose you have a decent community base - but you aren't the only ones - and it isn't that unique to have academy teams and to be helping players start out with casting and such. Any smart mid-tier NA team does that, because they understand you have to find ways to get noticed every way possible, and it turns out that Casters and Community/Academy teams are good ways to do that.

On December 12 2012 00:24 SugarBear wrote:


I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.

However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.

If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.

If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.

If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.

So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.

On December 12 2012 04:15 Glon wrote:



The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.

On December 12 2012 05:15 SugarBear wrote:




I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life.

On December 12 2012 05:15 SugarBear wrote:


That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.

I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.

On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?

On December 12 2012 05:27 Glon wrote:



Well, just be sure that you aren't implying that/inferring anything to players along these lines -- Even if you're just inferring it for the short term (6 months). Wouldn't want to set someone back several months in a mix up.

On December 12 2012 07:17 Zennith wrote:



See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.

On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:


But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.

Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.

On December 06 2012 01:04 Abraham Lincoln wrote:
i think your definition of success and happiness is just different than others. what you believe is "doing well" is judged entirely by your standards, and anyone who doesn't conform to those is a failure. "you will never get your 20s back" as if spending your 20s doing something you enjoy is so terrible. instead, should everyone be studying or working 100 hours a week at an office so they can have money in their 30s and 40s? is that what qualifies as success to you?

i actually used to think that too, but in reality its condescending as fuck. people find happiness and fulfillment in their own ways. what you say may very well be true for some people, and many who think like you. but for others, money and long term security at some desk job isn't what they want.

i know plenty of people who get paid fucktons of money to do high skill things but are miserable as shit. i know people that work at shitty menial labor and are some of the happiest people ever. people live their lives in different ways, who are you to tell them what is right and wrong like some judgmental parent?

On December 12 2012 07:53 Blazinghand wrote:


I think you should step back a moment and think about why someone would call you condescending.

On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:


But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.

Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.

On December 12 2012 08:06 SugarBear wrote:


Absolutely! I totally agree that there are different standards at play here. That's the whole point lol. I just don't understand why it's okay for other teams to throw money at eSports and that's fine, but for vVv to want to do our thing it's condescending? It's very important for there to be vVv's in addition to the other teams so that those who DO want that security and supportive environment have a place to go.

On December 12 2012 08:06 SugarBear wrote:


Absolutely! I totally agree that there are different standards at play here. That's the whole point lol. I just don't understand why it's okay for other teams to throw money at eSports and that's fine, but for vVv to want to do our thing it's condescending? It's very important for there to be vVv's in addition to the other teams so that those who DO want that security and supportive environment have a place to go.

On December 12 2012 08:09 Zennith wrote:



First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.

Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.

But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.

On December 12 2012 08:42 nmetasch wrote:


I SINCERELY doubt that a team like vVv is "throwing money" at the community. If you guys are, show me figures. It seems like it would be pretty bad business considering no ones really heard of any of your players, and they aren't really competitive.. If you want to "throw money" at the community, and support the community, go invest in and pick up some known free agents like morrow, naniwa, tod, and the thousands of other homeless high tiered players.

On December 12 2012 08:17 snively wrote:
i know hteres like another discussion going on, but does anyone know what happened to vvvtitan? i loved that guy

On December 12 2012 08:49 SugarBear wrote:


So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:

1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.

2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?

I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.

Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.

3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".

4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.

5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?





I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.

On December 12 2012 08:24 ZeromuS wrote:


I honestly think its really just your tone and approach to opinions that differ from your own that becomes really condescending.