Greetings Team Liquid community! We realized that we never formally introduced ourselves here (as some other teams have) so we decided to do so now! Hopefully this introduction post will clear up some misconceptions about vVv Gaming and help the community to understand our role in eSports!
vVv Gaming Mission Statement:
"In everything we do, we believe that all gamers with a passion for competition need an engaging outlet to share and express their passions. Competitive gamers thrive in a diverse environment that is social, empowering, supportive and informative, and all gamers, regardless of skill, have a place in competitive gaming. Competitive gaming should entertain, be educational and make you feel a sense of domination, whether you’re the top player or simply a fan. The way we do this is called vVv Gaming, and we just happen to be the best competitive gaming community in the world. Wanna join?"
vVv Gaming:
vVv Gaming is built on a community based model. Covering over ten titles from Starcraft II to FIFA 12, vVv Gaming consists of professional and amateur gamers as well as a graphics team and a staff of about 20 people, and we receive an average of 45,000 unique visitors to our site every month. One thing that separates us from other organizations is that we rarely pursue and bid on top talent. We believe that our role in esports is to identify talent early and help it to develop, an essential part of the growth and success of competitive gaming. Not only do we do this for competitive players, but if you're an aspiring eSports commentator, player, coach, content provider, or even want to work in the competitive gaming industry, then vVv Gaming is the place for you! We help you gain skills for eSports, skills for life. Anyone can join, regardless of skill and experience, you just need the passion to want to contribute. To make sure we're getting the most passionate people in eSports, vVv has an application process that can take 30 days. With more than 4,400 applications and just over 700 acceptances vVv has a 16.8% acceptance rate! So if you're serious about being part of the growth of eSports, take a look at our Applications Forum
History of vVv Gaming:
vVv Gaming was founded in 2007 by Jerry “LordJerith” Prochazka. Built as a console organization, vVv Gaming is the most accomplished console organization in the world with top 4 LAN finishes on 4 different continents ranging from Chengdu, China to Sao Paulo, Brazil, from France and the U.K. to all over North America in over a dozen titles. With top guilds in the MMOs Warhammer Online, Aion and Rift, vVv has had a presence in PC gaming since 2009 (though there are often hundreds of people in the guild, few of them apply and join the organization). In 2010, vVv Gaming announced its Starcraft II division after absorbing Quantum Gaming and since then vVv Gaming has continued to grow its presence in PC Gaming.
Jesse Hall was born 13th September, 1985 in Homestead, Florida. Jesse began playing StarCraft roughly around the release of StarCraft I; receiving his first copy on Christmas from his parents. He played StarCraft mostly with his father and quickly became one of his favorites next to the Mech Warrior series. Later, he purchased his very first game with a long one hour bike ride to the store, which was StarCraft: Brood War. He has been on and off with Brood War and Guildwars before the StarCraft II release.
At an older age he attended Fayetteville State University in North Carolina and is pursuing a Masters Degree in Mathematics and Teaching. Math becomes fun to Jesse as he thinks of it as a strategic game or puzzle. He tutors students at the university and does coaching for StarCraft II using that knowledge.
His interest in StarCraft didn't spark beyond Comp Stomps until his friend introduced him to Korean Pro Gamers. He finds micro play to be more fun and more effective, at times, as opposed to macro play. His micro intensive gaming style comes from the Korean Pro Gamer SlayersBoxer, who he has admired since Brood War. His interest in playing competitively didn't spark until StarCraft II, where he ran into the well-known Brood War player Idra on ladder. At that moment Jesse knew he had a chance to play some of the best players.
Colin Hamilton was born July 24th, 1987 in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Colin started playing RTS games when his father introduced SC1. Hasuu lived with his grandparents at the time, so it was a good way to spend time with his father. As he got older, he naturally transitioned into Starcraft: Brood War. Hasuu switched to Warcraft 3 immediately at release, with his friends.
In July 2007, Hasuu moved back to Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada to be closer to the other side of his family. Hasuu ended up working for Relic Entertainment as a Balance Designer. When StarCraft 2 was finally announced, Hasuu jumped aboard right away. Hasuu discovered vVv late 2010 and has been a part of vVv ever since.
To this day, Hasuu and his old man still play and discuss SC2 all the time. He had this to say about him: "My Father has always acted as a strategy coach, but also as a mental coach. Keeping me motivated to workout, eat healthy, and stay aggressive. He reminds me every day that it is important to keep a healthy and active life style in order to succeed. Whether it be gaming, or working in a complete different industry. A healthy lifestyle is important no matter what you do. It brings a smile to my face knowing he sometimes wakes up to check my ladder history to see how I am doing before he heads to work.
John Victor Kim was born on August 7, 1992 in Seoul, South Korea. Moving from Seoul to Canada in 1992, marked John's venture into StarCraft when it was first released in 1998. He invested his tooth fairy fund into a game, without realizing, it'd turn out to be one of his all time favourites. However, his road to becoming a pro was short sided by his parents. They thought it was not a wise decision.
John's competitive nature never left him satisfied with just his personal best. He continuously strives to become better and better in his never-ending pursuit to be one of the top contenders. In October 2010, John took hold of Team OpTiK as CEO for two years. The team was making progress, but John lost focus on the real goal.
Fast track to October 27, 2012 and we have NuBrGNi going head to head with GosuDDE. John had to fight hard, being knocked out early into the loser's bracket by GoSuDDE. However, they met again in the Grand Finals. NuBrGNi took the first set but crumbled to GoSuDDE's amazing 11/11 Barracks All-in. After an amazing match, no hostile feelings were had. John realized the potential to become pro was there. He just had to focus and get past years of shaky practice, and the problems life threw at him.
John's style leans towards the macro-heavy side having being influenced by Flash, IdrA, sAviOr, and Jaedong. He believes perfect play will award victory over anything gimmicky, but when you need to adapt... changes must be made!
Born on 9th October 1984 in the Czech Republic, Jana "Babytoss" Otahalova has been a gamer since the age of six. Mostly RPG's, starting with old classic titles like Diablo, Daggerfall, Baldur's Gate & Ultima Online, these games influenced her as a person, venturing into medieval reenactement and swordfighting, which became an influential part of her life. She was also a competitive player of the old action title, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, which had quite a big community back in 2004. Being effectively one of the best duelists in her country, Jana had her first glance into competitive gaming. If it wasn't for her physical health declining, you'd probably not see her today in the StarCraft 2 community. Being unable to perform swordfighting anymore, BabyToss was looking for more challenges for herself, to fill an empty void in her life.
Jana started playing StarCraft 2 in late 2010, although it was not until the second half of 2011 when BabyToss realized the challenge of and her own love for the game. Learning slowly from low leagues, BabyToss would struggle, as she walked the path. Facing a lot of factors hindering her, such as low-confidence and general anxiety, she takes up the challenge to fully grasp the game of StarCraft 2 with one goal – to become as good as possible.
Originally starting to climb the SC2 ladder from lowly Bronze, BabyToss managed to reach the Diamond league and she aims to reach Master level. She truly wishes to stream, entertain and coach newer players later on, along with participating regulary in both online and offline tournaments, overcoming her personal hurdle of being shy and un-confident through contributing to the StarCraft 2 community. Suffering from frequent severe depressions, BabyToss took a long break from consistent practice and training, resulting in huge drop of her skill. She is currently trying to get back on her feet, to reclaim what she once had, in order to be able to follow her dreams and further progress in StarCraft 2, as well as a person.
By the end of April 2012, BabyToss joined international team and community, vVv Gaming, considering herself to be StarCraft 2 player in training, still hoping to reach her dream of becoming one of the best; regardless of where that takes her, as ultimately, growing stronger, facing challenges and improving is, what keeps her ticking and going on.
BabyToss participated in her first international event, DreamHack 2012, where she was forced to face many of her personal struggles, which ultimately helped her to realize, that the road is here and she just needs to walk it. She also created the idea of a training environment for upcoming dedicated StarCraft 2 players, an Academy team of sorts, which would help these people to grow in a team environment. Then, finally on 4th July 2012, Aspire: StarCraft Learning Consortium was born, with BabyToss taking up the role of its' manager and captain, finding herself on yet another undiscovered venture: being a leader. And that is where new paths and possibilities opened for her and she intends to do her best, in all she does.
Born on July 5th, 1992, TJ, "Fearful," Lopez has been playing games ever since he was four years old. The sad part about that was that his very first game he could remember playing was Resident Evil. How crazy is that? He played all sorts of games, but he really loved to play Pokemon because it was all about strategy and knowing what you could do to beat your opponent. He says that it was way more strategical than what most people think.
After playing games like Pokemon, Smash Bros, and Mario, he stumbled upon Starcraft when he was 12. He never played Brood War because the original was what he liked best. He started off as a Protoss but ended up hating the race. He didn't feel like he could mass up units and overwhelm his opponents. With that mindset, he switched to Zerg and played much more happily. He started off rough but eventually got really good and won game after game. He always stayed in the channel "Cristal." After all his friends stopped playing Starcraft, he left the game for a while and left gaming for a while as well.
He eventually stumbled upon Warcraft 3 and only played Reign of Chaos. He really liked the Undead race because it had a little bit of a "zergy" feel. His favorite hero was the Dreadlord. He then created his own clan called "The Reapers." They were a pretty good clan and went against other clans. But after a while, he got tired of Warcraft 3 because he liked macro much more than micro. And Warcraft 3 was very micro intensive. After he left Warcraft 3, he got addicted to Assassin's Creed games and played Modern Warfare for fun.
After all that, he soon learned of the release of Starcraft 2. This was it. He had been waiting a long time for this and had the opportunity to play his macro-oriented games that he loves so much. When he first got the game, his computer could not handle even the lowest graphics and ended up with his motherboard being fried for the longest time. He quit the game at a silver level and saved up money to build his own computer that could handle the settings.
With the fresh install of the game and operating system, he played again and picked the name "TheFearful." He played by himself for a long time until he met a guy named "Ghozza" on the ladder. They were both silver at the time and he ended up beating Ghozza. Ghozza was a Protoss player and at the time, Protoss was Fearful's weakest matchup. They practiced together and learned of a clan called Nyquist Gaming. Together, they met a lot of good players and got better. By the time it was May of 2011, Fearful had ranked up all the way to Platinum League.
At that time, Nyquist was falling apart and some of the better players moved on to different teams. It was at this time he met a player named Zorro who used to be on Nyquist. Zorro was a Zerg player and he had just gotten accepted into the vVv Gaming community. He inspired Fearful to do the same when he applied in May. After he applied in May, Fearful practiced with a lot of the players and even got coaching from vVvTitan. After he had gotten coaching from Titan, Fearful won a Platinum tournament and won $5. After that week, Fearful had just been promoted to diamond and had just gotten accepted into vVv Gaming.
From there, he remained Diamond until a year later where he finally made it into Master League. He is there now and has just gotten accepted into the vVv Aspire Team. He is practicing very diligently and is improving day by day in hopes to go pro someday. Maybe it will happen, but only time can tell. He is in college studying Computer Engineering and is focused on his studies as well. He has a family and a girlfriend of over 2 years now. With all these things going on, he still manages to find time for Starcraft 2.
Adam Son Tran was born on April 3,1990 in Philadelpha, Pennsylvania. Adam "SonTran" Tran started gaming at a younger age, and it has been his passion ever since. The first ever RTS game he played was Warcraft 2. When he first got his new computer, he played the first Starcraft expansion, titled "Brood War". He was just eight years old when he began his trip down a road of gaming in Starcraft. The first race he played was Terran, and now, in his early 20's, he remains playing that race. His idol has remained SlayerS_BoxeR since then, and he has fondly looked up to him.
After taking a few years off from Brood War, Starcraft 2 was announced and he was so happy and pre-ordered the game. He couldn't help but feel a profound happiness, and fond memories of the past playing Brood War. He waited, what seemed like endless days, and finally, the game was out. Adam started out on Starcraft 2 with playing campaigns and playing against the computer, still unsure if he'd enter in a placement match. After long month's of practicing, he finally took his placement matches. Since then, he has blew past many leagues, and even beaten players in higher leagues.
After playing, learning, and watching people like Husky, Day[9] and others, and watching Starcraft tournaments, he wanted to be on a team. He had many Starcraft friends, and soon found out about vVv Gaming. All he wanted was to be on a team, and to feel the rush playing with a team name. He filled out an application, and after days of anxious waiting, and pondering, he was accepted.
Now, Adam is practicing every day, learning new builds, and is even inspiring Friends and Family to begin playing Starcraft.
He is honored to be included in "Aspire" and continues to practice as much as he can everyday.
Ryan "NazGuL" Lee Thornton was born in 1985 right at the start of the NES generation. He grew up playing all the originals: Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, Metroid, The Legend of Zelda, Ninja Gaiden, Super Mario bros and about every other NES game he could get his hands on. As Ryan grew older and wiser so did his games, In his teens he mastered Warcraft 2 and brought peace to Azeroth. When Warcraft 3 came about the only thing he really did was play DOTA. DOTA led him to really love PC gaming. He also became very fond of the various FPS titles available for the computer.
One fateful day as Ryan was at a close friends house who told him "look man DOTA is good but you need to play SC2!" He didn't really believe him and it had been ages since he even played an RTS, Ryan hadn't even played Brood War. After watching some casts from HDStarcraft, and being amazed at the level of skill and the variety of the game, Ryan purchased a copy of Starcraft 2 Wings of Liberty. Quickly placing into Bronze, he manged to secure a top rank in Gold his very first season in. By season 4, with under 250 games played, he hit Master leauge on his first true RTS ever! In hopes of bringing his gaming to the next level, he began to look for a team to practice with. This led him to vVv Gaming.
When Ryan heard about the new Aspire team he quickly made a huge effort to join! And low and behold he made it! This is just the first step for Ryan. He is planning on taking his gaming to a pro level and placing well at tournaments to get vVv's name out there as well as his own. He plans on playing his best and playing often every day, so he can do well at an online tournaments and perhaps end up on a live stream!
Aside from Starcraft 2 you can find Ryan reading Lord of the Rings. Not watching the movies, as he feels they take away from the seriousness and philosophical implications, that the author had illustrated in his telling of the trilogy. Although he is dedicated to his practice, he still makes time for his loving wife Rebekah, and his pride and joy, their son Zackary.
Chris "PoSeR" Clauson is 27 years old and lives in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. He has a girlfriend (pretty much wife) Sarah and a 5 years old son Emerson. He owns a bar not too far from home. So between the family and business PoSeR is a very busy man. Nonetheless, he always finds time to get his games in. He is a gamer at heart, and his passion for gaming has always come from StarCraft. He started playing Brood War when he was 12 years old back in 1998. He was waiting for StarCraft 2 to come out ever since. In that long wait for SC2 to come out, PoSeR used to play Brood war with RockEr. In his Brood War days, he was on many teams (i2, 88) cF) with players like Incontrol, Idra, Clawson, Jiang and Artist. So when PoSeR saw his friend RockEr joined vVv, the team really spiked his interest. He asked him how he could join and RockEr guided him through applying. Chris knows that RockEr is no longer with vVv, but he has really grown to love the community, as well as the fact that the team has an impressive history with a lot of different games. PoSeR loves playing StarCraft 2 and it really gives him a release from all the stress life could bring him. He is a very competitive player and hates to lose. PoSeR works hard on not letting the losses to get to him and practices almost every day, hoping he will be a Grandmaster soon.
Thomas “vVvTuFF” Parker was born in 1995 in Redwood, England. He spent a year in England and then moved to Canada where he lived on the east coast in New Brunswick for 10 years, then moved to the west coast in Edmonton where he lived for a year, and finally he moved to Barrie, Ontario where he lives now.
Thomas describes himself as an easy going person with a light nature.
Tuff has always had an affinity for video games, playing and loving games such as Crossfire, Super Smash Bros. and other RPG’s, but it wasn’t until Starcraft 2 that Tuff became interested in competitive gaming. He first learned of SC2 from a friend who showed him a cast of Husky, he watched those games for 3 months before even buying the game. As a result, he won his very first ever game, and was hooked. After being in many clans, who all disappeared eventually, Tuff sought out a more permanent residence, and found vVv gaming.
As a member of Aspire, Tuff plans to give as much as he can, and absorb all there is to offer. Tuff's plans for the future are to sell coaching and to get into GRANDMASTER!
Ott Madis "Oakwarrior" Ozolit is currently 21 years old and resides in Estonia (that's in Northern Europe). As a child of summertime, he was born on the 3rd of June 1991, notably the year when Estonia was declared fully independent from Soviet rule. He started playing games at a really early age, made possible by his family's geekiness and good relations with technology. The first game Ott played was Superfrog on the Atari, but the first RTS game was Dune II, and remains a great favourite even considering the game's age by now. The first experiences concerning StarCraft, though, came in mid-1998, when his brother was lent a Russian copy from his classmate and brought it home.
Already being somewhat well-versed in English due to TV shows, Ott played through the campaign and thoroughly came to admire the Protoss, always playing that race in Skirmish mode and possibly even emulating battle scenes and voices in the forests near his home. Brood War came shortly thereafter and the admiration for Protoss continued, mostly confined to single player due to internet connections not being as good as they are now. While still playing the game, he would not seriously put time into it until 2004, when he was gifted a SC: Anthology key by an online friend. It was at this point that Oakwarrior switched races to Zerg.
Not really registering the potential of the game as an eSport, Ott would continue on with playing other games, including Dawn of War 2, whose eSport potential was recognized and realized through the Electronic Sports League. Now that StarCraft II is released, all Oakwarrior does is play SC2 during most of his free time, honing his skills. The skill-honing in particular came to a certain point where Ott realized that he should join up with a team to have a solid practice environment constantly available. This led to him applying for the Aspire program in vVv Gaming, and he was lucky enough to be accepted into their ranks. vVv Gaming is the first clan that Ott has been part of in StarCraft II, and he is loving it so far.
Poche "Reere" Hu was born in Taipei, Taiwan in 1985. Growing up with a programmer father with interest in technology meant video games & computers were no strangers. His first encounter with competitive gaming was back in 2000 with Counter-Strike Beta 0.7. Internet cafes were booming, and CS was the game of choice. In 2002 Reere's CS team represented Indonesia in WCG Korea 2002, but he was not able to make the trip to Korea due to visa issues. Since then, Reere took a step back in competitive gaming and focused on studies.
Fast forward to 2011. No longer a child, married, and a stable job meant one thing missing; a passion. No matter what Reere tried to take up, he was eventually drawn back to gaming. After watching much of Tastosis and GSL earlier that year, he's finally found it. The missing passion was competitive gaming. A complete newbie at RTS, but Reere knew this was the path he was looking for, and he hasn't turned back since.
Taking his placement matches & starting in Silver back in April 2011, Reere worked his way up the ladder where he hit Grandmaster in July 2012. The whole journey was recorded on Twitter where he would tweet his thought process daily and share it with the SC2 community. Grandmaster rank however is just a stepping stone for Reere. His ultimate goal is to become a top tier player competing internationally. As Reere once said, "Hitting Grandmaster is where my journey actually starts. This is not the end."
On May 01 2012 10:45 andReslic wrote: Didn't vVv had a L4D team that won some tournaments? but they changed the name or something like that? I used to love that team
yes and the captain of the team caper still plays the game from time to time. L4D is still such a fun game wish it wasnt so dead.. :/
On May 01 2012 10:45 andReslic wrote: Didn't vVv had a L4D team that won some tournaments? but they changed the name or something like that? I used to love that team
yes and the captain of the team caper still plays the game from time to time. L4D is still such a fun game wish it wasnt so dead.. :/
I remember watching Kraljevo youtube's videos and thats the reason why I switched to PC, they were a good team too bad L4D scene wasn't that big.
On May 01 2012 10:45 andReslic wrote: Didn't vVv had a L4D team that won some tournaments? but they changed the name or something like that? I used to love that team
yes and the captain of the team caper still plays the game from time to time. L4D is still such a fun game wish it wasnt so dead.. :/
I remember watching Kraljevo youtube's videos and thats the reason why I switched to PC, they were a good team too bad L4D scene wasn't that big.
yea and the satisfaction of just getting a skeet makes it so fun for me at least
On May 01 2012 10:45 andReslic wrote: Didn't vVv had a L4D team that won some tournaments? but they changed the name or something like that? I used to love that team
yes and the captain of the team caper still plays the game from time to time. L4D is still such a fun game wish it wasnt so dead.. :/
I remember watching Kraljevo youtube's videos and thats the reason why I switched to PC, they were a good team too bad L4D scene wasn't that big.
yea and the satisfaction of just getting a skeet makes it so fun for me at least
Yea that feeling haha, or when u do a quad cap, really wanna play again hehe
On May 01 2012 10:45 andReslic wrote: Didn't vVv had a L4D team that won some tournaments? but they changed the name or something like that? I used to love that team
yes and the captain of the team caper still plays the game from time to time. L4D is still such a fun game wish it wasnt so dead.. :/
I remember watching Kraljevo youtube's videos and thats the reason why I switched to PC, they were a good team too bad L4D scene wasn't that big.
yea and the satisfaction of just getting a skeet makes it so fun for me at least
Yea that feeling haha, or when u do a quad cap, really wanna play again hehe
i still do play but mainly 2v2s because its hard to assemble 4 to scrim but still 2v2s are fun cuz its just skeeting which is soooo fun like getting double skeets lol
On May 01 2012 10:54 SCPlato wrote: not really a fan, get bmd by vVv players on ladder a lot.
cool intro though. hopefully you can fix the coding so it looks nice in the OP though.
I def. like the Losers Bracket, would recommend to those who haven't heard it.
Are you sure they are active vVv members? One problem with having such a broad community is that people come and go and since you only get one name change per lifetime in SC2 they often can't change their names to remove the tag once accepted.
Aaron Hassell (Beyond Gaming), Chief Marketing Officer Adam Apicella, Senior Vice President of Operations for MLG x3 Alex Jebaily, President and Owner of Community Effort Orlando Brent Ruiz, Founder and President of ESFI World CDNThe3rd, Founder of Hypefestation x3 Cpt. Barbosa, Video Production Manager for Beyond Gaming x2 Craig Levine, Founder of ESEA, Former Manager of Team 3D David Ting, General Manager of eSports and R&D for IGN x2 Flamesword, Professional Halo Player from Team Status Quo x2 Fourcourtjester, League of Legends Caster for MLG GoldenboyFTW, MLG Caster for CoD and Uncharted 3 Guitar Hero Eric, Social Media Manager for Activision "Hero" Brands (DJ/Guitar/Band) Hal Halpin, President of the ECA HuK, Professional SC2 Player for Team Liquid inkblot, Founder of EVO James Portnow, Game Designer, Writer for Extra Credits on Penny Arcade TV, CEO of Rainmaker Games Jason Agnew, Star Nation Producer (Starcraft 2 documentary) Jason Lake, CEO and Founder of Complexity eSports Jason Tugman, CEO of I Heart eSports x2 Juicebox, Fighting Games Caster for MLG Jedirob, Event Director for Devastation and eSports Manager for IGN Pro League x5 Kim Rom, CMO of Steelseries MrBitter, SC2 Caster and Professional Coach Nexy, Astro Gaming Content Coordinator, former MLG Content Producer x2 Paul Brewer, Manager of Marketing and Operations for WCG Powerglove, Video Game Metal Band Sheth, Professional SC2 Player for Team Liquid Sirscoots, COO of Team Evil Geniuses Spooky, Fighting Game Community Stream Director Sundance Digiovanni, CEO of MLG Gaming x8 ThisIsJimmy, Pro SC2 Player on Checksix vileIllusion, Pro SC2 Player on Vile Gaming
Same vVv that supported WC3? I remember then getting a TERRIBLE rep, I wasn't to involved but IIRC they were a pretty good amatuer team but heaps of BM ect. Seems like a cool team, is this the same team that had that chick that played GoW that INcontrol was slamming on WCG ultimate gamer?
On May 01 2012 12:31 ScruffyJanitor wrote: Same vVv that supported WC3? I remember then getting a TERRIBLE rep, I wasn't to involved but IIRC they were a pretty good amatuer team but heaps of BM ect. Seems like a cool team, is this the same team that had that chick that played GoW that INcontrol was slamming on WCG ultimate gamer?
vVv was created in 2007. I am pretty sure we did not support WC3. The GoW Gamer on the other hand, though I am not too sure what you are referring to, we have had girl GoW players in the past.
One thing that separates us from other organizations is that we rarely pursue and bid on top talent. We believe that our role in esports is to identify talent early and help it to develop, an essential part of the growth and success of competitive gaming.
I like this, its cool that you guys are focused on developing talent rather than buying it.
On May 01 2012 12:31 ScruffyJanitor wrote: Same vVv that supported WC3? I remember then getting a TERRIBLE rep, I wasn't to involved but IIRC they were a pretty good amatuer team but heaps of BM ect. Seems like a cool team, is this the same team that had that chick that played GoW that INcontrol was slamming on WCG ultimate gamer?
vVv was created in 2007. I am pretty sure we did not support WC3. The GoW Gamer on the other hand, though I am not too sure what you are referring to, we have had girl GoW players in the past.
Are you sure? I remember the exact same slogan ect. But the company could have reinvented itself I guess. Idk the chicks name she was like VvV.Ms " insert name" . Geoff (Incontrol) was laying down the moves like a boss on her on the TV series WCG. UIltimate Gamer. Nothing but love for you guys none the less <3
Its not the same vVv from WC3. Those were a bunch of hacker/vent hacker/double taggers from other teams like Shikka, Bar (Acid Rain), PLZLEAVEDUCK, Rebuke, and a couple others i forget, they were never affiliated with the real vVv
I love watching daisuki play. His play styles are always so aggressive and precise it makes his game play enjoyable to watch. I just wish he would commentate more, he hasn't for a while .
Hope to catch you streaming some time (I've been neglecting you lately).
Honestly, vVv has good players and seems like a chill team - however I did once go over and take a look at their forums and their introduction threads and everything like that and everyone seemed really cool and helpful - except for LordJerith. Based on that and some of his posts on TL, I've sort of ended up with a negative feeling about vVv. Which sucks, because these players are really quite good and I enjoy watching their games when they're on.
On May 01 2012 12:31 ScruffyJanitor wrote: Same vVv that supported WC3? I remember then getting a TERRIBLE rep, I wasn't to involved but IIRC they were a pretty good amatuer team but heaps of BM ect. Seems like a cool team, is this the same team that had that chick that played GoW that INcontrol was slamming on WCG ultimate gamer?
vVv was created in 2007. I am pretty sure we did not support WC3. The GoW Gamer on the other hand, though I am not too sure what you are referring to, we have had girl GoW players in the past.
Are you sure? I remember the exact same slogan ect. But the company could have reinvented itself I guess. Idk the chicks name she was like VvV.Ms " insert name" . Geoff (Incontrol) was laying down the moves like a boss on her on the TV series WCG. UIltimate Gamer. Nothing but love for you guys none the less <3
Mrs.Violence was in vVv Gaming, yes. However, she is no longer a member.
On May 01 2012 13:09 nGBeast wrote: Its not the same vVv from WC3. Those were a bunch of hacker/vent hacker/double taggers from other teams like Shikka, Bar (Acid Rain), PLZLEAVEDUCK, Rebuke, and a couple others i forget, they were never affiliated with the real vVv
Nightmare gaming beast? Is it creepy I know you and you don't know me? Oh yeah sounds about right. Sucks they gave vVv a bad name because Im not the only one from WC3 that thought that
If you guys ever go to an MLG event, you will see so many vVv members. And whenever one plays, all of them go over to watch and support them, its so cool to see such a supportive team, definitely a group of unsung players at MLG's.
How does vVv sustain itself? I don't see anything about sponsors. Cool team though; I think its cool to have communities like this built I just wonder if they can sustain themselves and keep supporting players.
On May 01 2012 13:09 nGBeast wrote: Its not the same vVv from WC3. Those were a bunch of hacker/vent hacker/double taggers from other teams like Shikka, Bar (Acid Rain), PLZLEAVEDUCK, Rebuke, and a couple others i forget, they were never affiliated with the real vVv
Nightmare gaming beast? Is it creepy I know you and you don't know me? Oh yeah sounds about right. Sucks they gave vVv a bad name because Im not the only one from WC3 that thought that
BEST OF LUCK VVV <3
Hmmmmmmmm yes I was in Nightmare Gaming (RIP ) The only aussie I know is Xypher
On May 01 2012 13:09 nGBeast wrote: Its not the same vVv from WC3. Those were a bunch of hacker/vent hacker/double taggers from other teams like Shikka, Bar (Acid Rain), PLZLEAVEDUCK, Rebuke, and a couple others i forget, they were never affiliated with the real vVv
Nightmare gaming beast? Is it creepy I know you and you don't know me? Oh yeah sounds about right. Sucks they gave vVv a bad name because Im not the only one from WC3 that thought that
BEST OF LUCK VVV <3
Hmmmmmmmm yes I was in Nightmare Gaming (RIP ) The only aussie I know is Xypher
On May 01 2012 14:15 TBone- wrote: If you guys ever go to an MLG event, you will see so many vVv members. And whenever one plays, all of them go over to watch and support them, its so cool to see such a supportive team, definitely a group of unsung players at MLG's.
Thanks for the recognition! We are as supportive of our community as we can possibly be. Our players seem to really appreciate it too.
On May 01 2012 14:24 MountainGoat wrote: How does vVv sustain itself? I don't see anything about sponsors. Cool team though; I think its cool to have communities like this built I just wonder if they can sustain themselves and keep supporting players.
Our biggest sponsor is SteelSeries and we have a great relationship with them. We also have relationships with Gamer Grub and KontrolFreek. We've been around for five+ years... we aren't going anywhere.
On May 01 2012 11:10 blade55555 wrote: Eh all of good ole quantum none are left on vVv, good luck.
Some still live..... !
(Glon the hated one base zerg xD)
Hm I am pretty sure glon wasn't in quantum with me/murder/ngry and others.
ngry was never in quantum. Me and him came to SC2, then he titan alej? optik joined a new team called no effort, which lasted a few days untill it fell apart, then him titan optik alej bake etc.. got offered to join vvv I believe?
On May 01 2012 14:24 MountainGoat wrote: How does vVv sustain itself? I don't see anything about sponsors. Cool team though; I think its cool to have communities like this built I just wonder if they can sustain themselves and keep supporting players.
Our biggest sponsor is SteelSeries and we have a great relationship with them. We also have relationships with Gamer Grub and KontrolFreek. We've been around for five+ years... we aren't going anywhere.
We also have a great sponsorship from Gameservers.net!
On May 01 2012 13:13 Zennith wrote: Honestly, vVv has good players and seems like a chill team - however I did once go over and take a look at their forums and their introduction threads and everything like that and everyone seemed really cool and helpful - except for LordJerith. Based on that and some of his posts on TL, I've sort of ended up with a negative feeling about vVv. Which sucks, because these players are really quite good and I enjoy watching their games when they're on.
Feel free to PM me. I'd love to know what I did that made you feel negative about me or the organization.
On May 01 2012 10:54 SCPlato wrote: not really a fan, get bmd by vVv players on ladder a lot.
cool intro though. hopefully you can fix the coding so it looks nice in the OP though.
I def. like the Losers Bracket, would recommend to those who haven't heard it.
We have spoken to the SC2 division about this recently. Don't hesitate to contact us if this is a continuing problem.
This was very encouraging to hear. I don't play at the top levels, but the first thing that came to mind when I saw this title was "aren't they the guys that BM a lot?", but if they really are ex players and being dealt with then that is awesome and I wish you all the best!
On May 01 2012 10:54 SCPlato wrote: not really a fan, get bmd by vVv players on ladder a lot.
cool intro though. hopefully you can fix the coding so it looks nice in the OP though.
I def. like the Losers Bracket, would recommend to those who haven't heard it.
We have spoken to the SC2 division about this recently. Don't hesitate to contact us if this is a continuing problem.
This was very encouraging to hear. I don't play at the top levels, but the first thing that came to mind when I saw this title was "aren't they the guys that BM a lot?", but if they really are ex players and being dealt with then that is awesome and I wish you all the best!
Thanks. We try our best to deal with this when issues are brought to our attention. In fact, we remind members that "you are not a better player or better gamer the day you are accepted into vVv Gaming, then you were the day before.,"
Need to update your roster ...unless Ezlab, Toxic, ReseT and czehyeon didn't actually join...pretty sure they did though. Sorry if I'm wrong, and I know I messed up the spelling/capitalization.
On May 01 2012 11:10 blade55555 wrote: Eh all of good ole quantum none are left on vVv, good luck.
Some still live..... !
(Glon the hated one base zerg xD)
Hm I am pretty sure glon wasn't in quantum with me/murder/ngry and others.
ngry was never in quantum. Me and him came to SC2, then he titan alej? optik joined a new team called no effort, which lasted a few days untill it fell apart, then him titan optik alej bake etc.. got offered to join vvv I believe?
Me Titan and NGry joined no effort. Lasted a little while, then Titan and NGry joined vVv. I believe Titan was really the only one "offered" to join vVv, although I can't really speak on NGry's behalf. I think optik went straight to FXO team wise. I also can't really recall how much I knew alej prior to no effort, but I think he was in it as well, and went to vVv with Titan and NGry.
Anyway~~ Good luck to vVv. I know Daisuki is a really really good zerg player and vVv is a good establishment for growing players.
On May 01 2012 23:41 Jukka wrote: Need to update your roster ...unless Ezlab, Toxic, ReseT and czehyeon didn't actually join...pretty sure they did though. Sorry if I'm wrong, and I know I messed up the spelling/capitalization.
Not every player we have on the team is sponsored and contracted. The players listed in the OP are our sponsored lineup, while others are working toward reaching that level.
On May 02 2012 13:44 QxGRockEr wrote: lol... its a thread about vvv? of course theres a lot of posts. Big community. This team is a lot of fun! Can't wait for MLG
On May 02 2012 13:44 QxGRockEr wrote: lol... its a thread about vvv? of course theres a lot of posts. Big community. This team is a lot of fun! Can't wait for MLG
Hey im Relentless from vVv gaming and we welcome many people to are great community and support every member with respect. We have member from all over the world all over America a few in Europe and me from London. Theres always a great game to play and members to join in with pop down to vVv Gaming now
My personal favorite part of being a member of vVv is that direct "access" to highly skilled players and a great community to discuss just about anything with. When I have a question about anything I have never been turned away by any of our members when seeking advice. If you ever want to be a part of something like that, where any body is willing to help you out.. you should come hang with us.
I played against a dude named vVvFearful on ladder his ZvZ decision making is pretty poor but what a manner dude. Don't know much about vVv but I got to say I got good impressions about how he reacted to me winning and saying why
Currently going through that rigorous application process they outlined in the OP. Great bunch of folks in my short time hanging out with them. Everyone in the SC2 channel is really nice and exceptionally helpful. A lot of great content on the website to read. A really good all around community. If any of you guys are looking for a home, this is the one I'd try.
On May 05 2012 13:38 Treetop wrote: Currently going through that rigorous application process they outlined in the OP. Great bunch of folks in my short time hanging out with them. Everyone in the SC2 channel is really nice and exceptionally helpful. A lot of great content on the website to read. A really good all around community. If any of you guys are looking for a home, this is the one I'd try.
Good luck on your application! You will live, I promise!
On May 07 2012 11:42 Noam wrote: Great job with the thread, very organized and full of information.
Continue being awesome with events as well and good luck!
Thank you! We noticed teams had introduction threads and noticed we have not put one here! Thank you for the support! If you (or anyone) has any questions, let us know! We love answering questions!
On May 05 2012 13:26 FlukyS wrote: I played against a dude named vVvFearful on ladder his ZvZ decision making is pretty poor but what a manner dude. Don't know much about vVv but I got to say I got good impressions about how he reacted to me winning and saying why
Yeah Fear is a great guy and we're happy to hear he was manner. One of the biggest misconceptions I've seen on reddit and other community sites is that just because a player on ladder has the vVv tag means they're a sponsored or contracted player. We have about 100 active community members who represent us on various games from LoL, SC2, GW2, and CoD, but only a few are sponsored players. I play other games with a vVv tag but am by no means a top player in every one. We don't discriminate players on skill, anyone can join if they demonstrate passion and a level of maturity for gaming.
i played some guy called "vVvAstro" on ladder the other day, said it was a smurf on EU server to play offrace (he played zvz with me), diamond league. So who was it? vVvRuFF, vVvRocker or vVvHasuu? (seemed to be a nice guy btw, even though i didn't know the vVv clan we had a nice chat)
On May 07 2012 22:47 Cirqueenflex wrote: i played some guy called "vVvAstro" on ladder the other day, said it was a smurf on EU server to play offrace (he played zvz with me), diamond league. So who was it? vVvRuFF, vVvRocker or vVvHasuu? (seemed to be a nice guy btw, even though i didn't know the vVv clan we had a nice chat)
vVvAstro is currently a re-applicant. He is not a smurf of one of our sponsored players and is not currently part of vVv.
Perhaps not the right place but whatever happened to vVvRigid? Is he still on the team? Used to talk with him and watch his stream like a year ago and suddenly he completely dissappeared never seen him since :/.
On May 08 2012 03:06 solidbebe wrote: Perhaps not the right place but whatever happened to vVvRigid? Is he still on the team? Used to talk with him and watch his stream like a year ago and suddenly he completely dissappeared never seen him since :/.
Rigid decided to retire and focus on other things. He still plays on a smurf from what I hear, but I have no idea what his smurf account is called and I don't really know if he is still active in the game or not.
On May 08 2012 03:06 solidbebe wrote: Perhaps not the right place but whatever happened to vVvRigid? Is he still on the team? Used to talk with him and watch his stream like a year ago and suddenly he completely dissappeared never seen him since :/.
Rigid decided to retire and focus on other things. He still plays on a smurf from what I hear, but I have no idea what his smurf account is called and I don't really know if he is still active in the game or not.
Wasn't your owner the one who was blowing a gasket about Team Liquid being a monopoly and biased etc. just a couple of months ago. Funny to see you "advertising" here.
On May 09 2012 05:16 IcariumJhag wrote: Wasn't your owner the one who was blowing a gasket about Team Liquid being a monopoly and biased etc. just a couple of months ago. Funny to see you "advertising" here.
Uhm just a little question: When i look up "4th IEM NA Championship 2010, New York" there is Drewbie sitting at that place. The only vVv player in that tournament was Murder and he didnt make it out of the group stage.
On May 09 2012 06:44 darthfoley wrote: is vVvEzaLB or something in vVv? he's a GM protoss on NA
He is currently an applicant that likes to put his tags on early
On May 09 2012 06:57 Icemind wrote: Uhm just a little question: When i look up "4th IEM NA Championship 2010, New York" there is Drewbie sitting at that place. The only vVv player in that tournament was Murder and he didnt make it out of the group stage.
On May 09 2012 06:57 Icemind wrote: Uhm just a little question: When i look up "4th IEM NA Championship 2010, New York" there is Drewbie sitting at that place. The only vVv player in that tournament was Murder and he didnt make it out of the group stage.
On May 09 2012 06:44 darthfoley wrote: is vVvEzaLB or something in vVv? he's a GM protoss on NA
He is currently an applicant that likes to put his tags on early
On May 09 2012 06:57 Icemind wrote: Uhm just a little question: When i look up "4th IEM NA Championship 2010, New York" there is Drewbie sitting at that place. The only vVv player in that tournament was Murder and he didnt make it out of the group stage.
On May 09 2012 06:44 darthfoley wrote: is vVvEzaLB or something in vVv? he's a GM protoss on NA
He is currently an applicant that likes to put his tags on early
On May 09 2012 06:57 Icemind wrote: Uhm just a little question: When i look up "4th IEM NA Championship 2010, New York" there is Drewbie sitting at that place. The only vVv player in that tournament was Murder and he didnt make it out of the group stage.
Hi, I am the League of Legends Community manager for vVv, and although I haven't really played Starcraft all that much, I love watching the high-intensity strategies based all around timing. Personally, I don't like to play it, but I still find it very stimulating to watch.
At MLG Providence last year, I didn't really watch the SC2 action, but between then and Columbus I educated myself a bit, and at Columbus I got to watch a few matches real close, and it was really enjoyable.
Sometimes I even got a little too rowdy for the community and was asked to be quiet. ^.^;
With that said, I'm open to have anyone talk to me about League of Legends, or to teach me anything about Starcraft.
On May 11 2012 10:06 vVvSpike wrote: If anyone is interested, The Loser's Bracket show round 113 is up right now on Youthbe. The guest this week was David Ting from IPL
Well the real pro's will get the results. And they are mostly koreans and only a handfull of non-koreans. But I wish vVv the best and may they get good results !
On May 12 2012 03:53 Heouf wrote: Well the real pro's will get the results. And they are mostly koreans and only a handfull of non-koreans. But I wish vVv the best and may they get good results !
As the post states we aren't really interested in buying out top talent. We focus on developing players, fans, and people who want to work in the space. We believe that there will always be teams and players winning tournaments, but the amateurs and fans are the unsung heroes of esports.
On May 12 2012 03:53 Heouf wrote: Well the real pro's will get the results. And they are mostly koreans and only a handfull of non-koreans. But I wish vVv the best and may they get good results !
As the post states we aren't really interested in buying out top talent. We focus on developing players, fans, and people who want to work in the space. We believe that there will always be teams and players winning tournaments, but the amateurs and fans are the unsung heroes of esports.
and you have done just that. vVv has been so rewarding to be apart of and ive grown a lot as a player and person just from being in vVv
On May 12 2012 07:16 WaKai wrote: I've had my best experiences in vVv, not only are we well organised, but everyone is so great to talk to and have fun with!! <3 vVv
If you'd like to support vVv Gaming while you're buying your MLG Spring Arena pass, you can enter our referral code "vvv2012" during check out. It doesn't require you to go out of your way at all.
I'm the Diablo 3 Community Manager and even though I'm not very educated about SC2, it's still amazing to watch. I'm very excited for the Spring Arena to start since the Winter Arena was crazzzyyyyy. If anyone is interested in learning more about Grubby, our very own vVv BabyToss did an interview with him and you can read it here.
Thank you to everyone who has shown us support and offered kind words! Also I'd like to thank everyone for taking time out of their day to check us out see what we're about :}
If you have a love for gaming, you really should apply to be a part of a great community. I don't think that there is any other gaming community out there that is like vVv.
vVv is an ambitious website I personally appreciate what you guys are doing for the gaming community, good people, good info, supports esports. +1 in my book.
On May 14 2012 09:14 Morgoth wrote: vVv is an ambitious website I personally appreciate what you guys are doing for the gaming community, good people, good info, supports esports. +1 in my book.
Yay! The Loser's Bracket is live tonight at 9:00EST (6:00PST)! Tonight the guests are NJROD and the vVv League of Legends team! Twitch.TV/LivevVvGaming !
On May 17 2012 10:18 playLoud wrote: stop bumping this thread. this isnt a thread to announce whenever anything involving vvv is going on.
Actually, it partly is, bumping or not.
No it isn't, its an introduction thread and you introduced your team already. If you want to let people know when vods are up post them on your facebook/twitter/website not your team intro thread.
On May 17 2012 10:18 playLoud wrote: stop bumping this thread. this isnt a thread to announce whenever anything involving vvv is going on.
Actually, it partly is, bumping or not.
No it isn't, its an introduction thread and you introduced your team already. If you want to let people know when vods are up post them on your facebook/twitter/website not your team intro thread.
I am not trying to to get into a big argument, however, the reason why we post things like our Wednesday Night Starcraft and The Loser's Bracket information and links here is to show these things happen weekly, we post everything on our Youtube, and simply that we are consistent. The original thinking to make this thread is obviously to introduce ourselves and for advertisement that we are part of the Starcraft community.
If you find this thread is in your way because it keeps bumping when we post additional links and information in the posts, you can sort the category page by date posted so you receive the newest information without us annoying you, or I am sure look past it without it biting you too hard.
Thanks for your concerns and feel free to PM, post, or find me and let me know if you have any others!
Well you guys are very welcome in my mind. Ive known about vVv since Halo 3 days and they've always been around sponsoring teams and such. Good luck with you and your current players
and at the time of my post it wasnt even posted yet...
Aside from our new pick-up, we still have over 20 community members, 2 sponsored and 10 academy players. If you take a look at the original post you can see that we do not buy-out top talent, we're more focused on developing and providing a place for competitive gamers at all skill-levels. Our uniqueness may be hard to grasp, which is why we made that video to explain our culture.
and at the time of my post it wasnt even posted yet...
Aside from our new pick-up, we still have over 20 community members, 2 sponsored and 10 academy players. If you take a look at the original post you can see that we do not buy-out top talent, we're more focused on developing and providing a place for competitive gamers at all skill-levels. Our uniqueness may be hard to grasp, which is why we made that video to explain our culture.
But other than Glon (who has always been good) who have you developed? I'm not trying to be mean, just curious who you actually take credit for.
and at the time of my post it wasnt even posted yet...
Aside from our new pick-up, we still have over 20 community members, 2 sponsored and 10 academy players. If you take a look at the original post you can see that we do not buy-out top talent, we're more focused on developing and providing a place for competitive gamers at all skill-levels. Our uniqueness may be hard to grasp, which is why we made that video to explain our culture.
But other than Glon (who has always been good) who have you developed? I'm not trying to be mean, just curious who you actually take credit for.
In Starcraft our main stories have been Glon, ToXSiK and our aspire division.
However, it's not just about in-game skill. I'll share some examples with you: + Show Spoiler +
"In the last two and a half years with vVv Gaming I went from being just a gamer, to a writer, to contributing over 70 articles to a major newspaper blog. I have found something to be passionate about, and have enjoyed doing it for the entire time." - vVv Blazek (Join Date: September 21, 2009, Writer and Blogger)
"Since graduating college and joining vVv Gaming, I’ve evolved into an entirely different person. The marketing and representation skills that I have learned from Jerry and vVv Gaming trump the knowledge I gained in school tenfold." - vVv Paradise (Join Date: May 5th, 2009, Content Producer)
"What schools have a hard time teaching is aptitude. The ability to figure out an answer that you weren't given and didn't already know is something that vVv has given me the opportunity to learn over and over again." - vVv Doomhammer (Join Date: December 11th, 2008, President of vVv)
"I can honestly say--without a doubt--that I would not be the person I am today without my experience with vVv Gaming. I started out with the organization as an overly shy 16 year old, and through the organization I improved my writing abilities and analytical skill. Those improvements definitely played a key role in my eventual acceptance into the University of Michigan and I'll continue to use those abilities when I apply to law schools next summer." - vVv Nero (Join Date: April 25, 2008, Former Staff)
Hope that gives you some perspective into what we've done and where we've come from. I, personally am moving from Connecticut to Los Angeles in 5 days for an amazing opportunity that wouldn't have been possible without vVv Gaming. - Rob
and at the time of my post it wasnt even posted yet...
Aside from our new pick-up, we still have over 20 community members, 2 sponsored and 10 academy players. If you take a look at the original post you can see that we do not buy-out top talent, we're more focused on developing and providing a place for competitive gamers at all skill-levels. Our uniqueness may be hard to grasp, which is why we made that video to explain our culture.
and at the time of my post it wasnt even posted yet...
Aside from our new pick-up, we still have over 20 community members, 2 sponsored and 10 academy players. If you take a look at the original post you can see that we do not buy-out top talent, we're more focused on developing and providing a place for competitive gamers at all skill-levels. Our uniqueness may be hard to grasp, which is why we made that video to explain our culture.
But other than Glon (who has always been good) who have you developed? I'm not trying to be mean, just curious who you actually take credit for.
In Starcraft our main stories have been Glon, ToXSiK and our aspire division.
However, it's not just about in-game skill. I'll share some examples with you: + Show Spoiler +
"In the last two and a half years with vVv Gaming I went from being just a gamer, to a writer, to contributing over 70 articles to a major newspaper blog. I have found something to be passionate about, and have enjoyed doing it for the entire time." - vVv Blazek (Join Date: September 21, 2009, Writer and Blogger)
"Since graduating college and joining vVv Gaming, I’ve evolved into an entirely different person. The marketing and representation skills that I have learned from Jerry and vVv Gaming trump the knowledge I gained in school tenfold." - vVv Paradise (Join Date: May 5th, 2009, Content Producer)
"What schools have a hard time teaching is aptitude. The ability to figure out an answer that you weren't given and didn't already know is something that vVv has given me the opportunity to learn over and over again." - vVv Doomhammer (Join Date: December 11th, 2008, President of vVv)
"I can honestly say--without a doubt--that I would not be the person I am today without my experience with vVv Gaming. I started out with the organization as an overly shy 16 year old, and through the organization I improved my writing abilities and analytical skill. Those improvements definitely played a key role in my eventual acceptance into the University of Michigan and I'll continue to use those abilities when I apply to law schools next summer." - vVv Nero (Join Date: April 25, 2008, Former Staff)
Hope that gives you some perspective into what we've done and where we've come from. I, personally am moving from Connecticut to Los Angeles in 5 days for an amazing opportunity that wouldn't have been possible without vVv Gaming. - Rob
That's great and all. I'm happy for you. But Sc2 is still what people here care about the most. You can gain those skills with any number of teams (and honestly, if your experience with an sc2 team trumps your college years, well, maybe you should have gone somewhere else for college.
Like, the whole Aspire thing is cool, I guess. But still none of them are actually good players yet, and how long has it been?
and at the time of my post it wasnt even posted yet...
Aside from our new pick-up, we still have over 20 community members, 2 sponsored and 10 academy players. If you take a look at the original post you can see that we do not buy-out top talent, we're more focused on developing and providing a place for competitive gamers at all skill-levels. Our uniqueness may be hard to grasp, which is why we made that video to explain our culture.
But other than Glon (who has always been good) who have you developed? I'm not trying to be mean, just curious who you actually take credit for.
In Starcraft our main stories have been Glon, ToXSiK and our aspire division.
However, it's not just about in-game skill. I'll share some examples with you: + Show Spoiler +
"In the last two and a half years with vVv Gaming I went from being just a gamer, to a writer, to contributing over 70 articles to a major newspaper blog. I have found something to be passionate about, and have enjoyed doing it for the entire time." - vVv Blazek (Join Date: September 21, 2009, Writer and Blogger)
"Since graduating college and joining vVv Gaming, I’ve evolved into an entirely different person. The marketing and representation skills that I have learned from Jerry and vVv Gaming trump the knowledge I gained in school tenfold." - vVv Paradise (Join Date: May 5th, 2009, Content Producer)
"What schools have a hard time teaching is aptitude. The ability to figure out an answer that you weren't given and didn't already know is something that vVv has given me the opportunity to learn over and over again." - vVv Doomhammer (Join Date: December 11th, 2008, President of vVv)
"I can honestly say--without a doubt--that I would not be the person I am today without my experience with vVv Gaming. I started out with the organization as an overly shy 16 year old, and through the organization I improved my writing abilities and analytical skill. Those improvements definitely played a key role in my eventual acceptance into the University of Michigan and I'll continue to use those abilities when I apply to law schools next summer." - vVv Nero (Join Date: April 25, 2008, Former Staff)
Hope that gives you some perspective into what we've done and where we've come from. I, personally am moving from Connecticut to Los Angeles in 5 days for an amazing opportunity that wouldn't have been possible without vVv Gaming. - Rob
That's great and all. I'm happy for you. But Sc2 is still what people here care about the most. You can gain those skills with any number of teams (and honestly, if your experience with an sc2 team trumps your college years, well, maybe you should have gone somewhere else for college.
Like, the whole Aspire thing is cool, I guess. But still none of them are actually good players yet, and how long has it been?
Unlike most academy teams, we didn't focus on players who were already Top-Masters when forming our Aspire division. Here's their most recent update.
and at the time of my post it wasnt even posted yet...
Aside from our new pick-up, we still have over 20 community members, 2 sponsored and 10 academy players. If you take a look at the original post you can see that we do not buy-out top talent, we're more focused on developing and providing a place for competitive gamers at all skill-levels. Our uniqueness may be hard to grasp, which is why we made that video to explain our culture.
But other than Glon (who has always been good) who have you developed? I'm not trying to be mean, just curious who you actually take credit for.
In Starcraft our main stories have been Glon, ToXSiK and our aspire division.
However, it's not just about in-game skill. I'll share some examples with you: + Show Spoiler +
"In the last two and a half years with vVv Gaming I went from being just a gamer, to a writer, to contributing over 70 articles to a major newspaper blog. I have found something to be passionate about, and have enjoyed doing it for the entire time." - vVv Blazek (Join Date: September 21, 2009, Writer and Blogger)
"Since graduating college and joining vVv Gaming, I’ve evolved into an entirely different person. The marketing and representation skills that I have learned from Jerry and vVv Gaming trump the knowledge I gained in school tenfold." - vVv Paradise (Join Date: May 5th, 2009, Content Producer)
"What schools have a hard time teaching is aptitude. The ability to figure out an answer that you weren't given and didn't already know is something that vVv has given me the opportunity to learn over and over again." - vVv Doomhammer (Join Date: December 11th, 2008, President of vVv)
"I can honestly say--without a doubt--that I would not be the person I am today without my experience with vVv Gaming. I started out with the organization as an overly shy 16 year old, and through the organization I improved my writing abilities and analytical skill. Those improvements definitely played a key role in my eventual acceptance into the University of Michigan and I'll continue to use those abilities when I apply to law schools next summer." - vVv Nero (Join Date: April 25, 2008, Former Staff)
Hope that gives you some perspective into what we've done and where we've come from. I, personally am moving from Connecticut to Los Angeles in 5 days for an amazing opportunity that wouldn't have been possible without vVv Gaming. - Rob
Not sure why you'd name those two to be honest... You've had much more successful players in the past and it always makes me sad when I see vVv being not as active in the top tier teams now and days.
If I was to mention 2 players that really made vVv what it is today it would have to be Titan and NGry. For a while they were very well established among higher rated players, especially Titan, who has in fact been streaming a little if I've seen correctly. (not sc2 tho >.>)
If I was to guess why vVv "doesn't buy out talent" it's probably just mainly because they don't have the funding(not a bad thing). It's also just not in their priorities. They're looking for sustainability versus the "now", which is in my opinion, the better way to market a team within Esports.
That all said, they do have their academy team which is looking to promote players to main squad if they're able to reach certain requirements. This is something that's incredibly beneficial to not just vVv as a team, but also upcoming players in the scene and shouldn't be pushed aside. It's something unique to vVv, fnatic and complexity as far as I know.
The forum formatting for that members list needs to desperately be fixed. Thought I should point that out
Just finished fixing this issue. All should be good with this now.
As Rob pointed out, a recent forum update had quite a few bugs in it. Thankfully nothing too major, but we're having to clean up some messes here and there.
and at the time of my post it wasnt even posted yet...
Aside from our new pick-up, we still have over 20 community members, 2 sponsored and 10 academy players. If you take a look at the original post you can see that we do not buy-out top talent, we're more focused on developing and providing a place for competitive gamers at all skill-levels. Our uniqueness may be hard to grasp, which is why we made that video to explain our culture.
But other than Glon (who has always been good) who have you developed? I'm not trying to be mean, just curious who you actually take credit for.
In Starcraft our main stories have been Glon, ToXSiK and our aspire division.
However, it's not just about in-game skill. I'll share some examples with you: + Show Spoiler +
"In the last two and a half years with vVv Gaming I went from being just a gamer, to a writer, to contributing over 70 articles to a major newspaper blog. I have found something to be passionate about, and have enjoyed doing it for the entire time." - vVv Blazek (Join Date: September 21, 2009, Writer and Blogger)
"Since graduating college and joining vVv Gaming, I’ve evolved into an entirely different person. The marketing and representation skills that I have learned from Jerry and vVv Gaming trump the knowledge I gained in school tenfold." - vVv Paradise (Join Date: May 5th, 2009, Content Producer)
"What schools have a hard time teaching is aptitude. The ability to figure out an answer that you weren't given and didn't already know is something that vVv has given me the opportunity to learn over and over again." - vVv Doomhammer (Join Date: December 11th, 2008, President of vVv)
"I can honestly say--without a doubt--that I would not be the person I am today without my experience with vVv Gaming. I started out with the organization as an overly shy 16 year old, and through the organization I improved my writing abilities and analytical skill. Those improvements definitely played a key role in my eventual acceptance into the University of Michigan and I'll continue to use those abilities when I apply to law schools next summer." - vVv Nero (Join Date: April 25, 2008, Former Staff)
Hope that gives you some perspective into what we've done and where we've come from. I, personally am moving from Connecticut to Los Angeles in 5 days for an amazing opportunity that wouldn't have been possible without vVv Gaming. - Rob
Not sure why you'd name those two to be honest... You've had much more successful players in the past and it always makes me sad when I see vVv being not as active in the top tier teams now and days.
If I was to mention 2 players that really made vVv what it is today it would have to be Titan and NGry. For a while they were very well established among higher rated players, especially Titan, who has in fact been streaming a little if I've seen correctly. (not sc2 tho >.>)
If I was to guess why vVv "doesn't buy out talent" it's probably just mainly because they don't have the funding(not a bad thing). It's also just not in their priorities. They're looking for sustainability versus the "now", which is in my opinion, the better way to market a team within Esports.
That all said, they do have their academy team which is looking to promote players to main squad if they're able to reach certain requirements. This is something that's incredibly beneficial to not just vVv as a team, but also upcoming players in the scene and shouldn't be pushed aside. It's something unique to vVv, fnatic and complexity as far as I know.
I'm glad you brought this up. We honestly don't focus on buying talent because we don't feel that it actually adds much value to esports at this point. Anyone can throw money at players, it's actually a very boring way to run an organization in my humble opinion. Throwing money at players, creating a sustainable business model and doing it right is the fun/challenging part. Most teams don't really do that either though. I don't mean to discredit anyone, but it's just not where we see us (vVv) adding the most value in the long-term.
Our biggest challenge is getting over the Team narrative that all teams that don't pursue and bid on top talent, don't have a place in competitive gaming. Whenever we post on TL or reddit we're constantly talked down and condescended, which is just straight up discouraging. We're trying just as hard to make esports work as other teams, but we take a slightly different approach, sorry? (Not directed at you, Kyo)
The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
Yep. And when I was looking for a team back in the day, I remember the way that they treated prospective players, and it really just turned me off completely. And then seeing posts by Jerith here on TL, well, they've never made themselves really respectable on that side of things, IMO.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
We have changed management, I will be moving to LA next week so that I can run the organization full-time.
Do you have any advice or feedback of what I can do to regain trust back from the community if what you said in your first paragraph is truly how the community views us? Feel free to PM if you want to keep it private.
On December 10 2012 13:38 Zennith wrote: Yep. And when I was looking for a team back in the day, I remember the way that they treated prospective players, and it really just turned me off completely. And then seeing posts by Jerith here on TL, well, they've never made themselves really respectable on that side of things, IMO.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. But, we are trying to make changes. And seeing constantly negative comments can be really a big put off. It's easier to just critize rather than to try and do something yourself. Constructive comments and as to how to improve ourselves is always welcomed, as that actually will help, but condescending negative comments rarely help anything, least to create something nice.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
I really don't see your point. vVv is hardly on the level either of those teams were.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
I really don't see your point. vVv is hardly on the level either of those teams were.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you weren't going to get my point.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
I really don't see your point. vVv is hardly on the level either of those teams were.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you weren't going to get my point.
Since I assume you're being sarcastic - you're suggesting that what vVv is doins is trying to fill a niche/hole that neither of those teams were able to by asking your players to contribute more (not knowing at all what Quantic asked of their players).
My point is that you can't fill that role because you just aren't the same cailber of team. Sorry?
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
I really don't see your point. vVv is hardly on the level either of those teams were.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you weren't going to get my point.
Since I assume you're being sarcastic - you're suggesting that what vVv is doins is trying to fill a niche/hole that neither of those teams were able to by asking your players to contribute more (not knowing at all what Quantic asked of their players).
My point is that you can't fill that role because you just aren't the same cailber of team. Sorry?
I think you should actually watch and listen to this video:
vVv is in no way trying to be a Quantic Gaming, and our unique culture as a community first and pro-team to support our community makes it a necessity to demand more from our players than other organizations might.
I had the worst experience playing against/with various vVv guilds in MMOs, especially in Aion and Aika. Sometimes they are named vVv, other times they are not but claims to have an affiliation and constantly advertise how awesome vVv is. The elitist attitude these players/guilds showed totally go against the values you kept trying to shove into our faces via the video. Not surprisingly, the first vVv player i met on SC2 ladder, vVvRuFF, is one of the most BM player on the NA ladder. He cheese, he win, he mocks you. He cheese, he lose, your hacking or is an extremely lucky bastard. Even vVvTitan has gone full retard once in a awhile when a no-name beats him.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
On December 11 2012 14:08 Shortizz wrote: I had the worst experience playing against/with various vVv guilds in MMOs, especially in Aion and Aika. Sometimes they are named vVv, other times they are not but claims to have an affiliation and constantly advertise how awesome vVv is. The elitist attitude these players/guilds showed totally go against the values you kept trying to shove into our faces via the video. Not surprisingly, the first vVv player i met on SC2 ladder, vVvRuFF, is one of the most BM player on the NA ladder. He cheese, he win, he mocks you. He cheese, he lose, your hacking or is an extremely lucky bastard. Even vVvTitan has gone full retard once in a awhile when a no-name beats him.
So much for your unique culture and values yeah?
I'm sorry you had bad experiences with vVv players in the past, but Aion and Aika are certainly not recent games and our culture has changed quite a bit this past year or so. Also, we take the values in the video very seriously. If you have a problem like this with any of our players, please provide us with evidence of the event and we will address it.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
I will add on to the others that have posted in this thread already. I can count at least 5 times I have ran into a vVv player on sc2 NA ladder and been BM'd to absolute hell. So much so that after the 2nd or 3rd time I Googled' your team just to see what other scum were on the team so I could avoid them in the future. Hope you guys turn over a new leaf, but for me....dead.
I have talked about this before, so I am going to try to keep it short. However, I do think that people need to celebrate vVv for their differences and unique qualities they bring to the table rather than blindly comparing them to other organization and teams.
"Pro teams', especially in NA are very limited right now. So, why look down upon an organization simply trying to live within their means and put sustainability and player growth above all else? It's obvious these 'build it and they will come" strategies do not work. It's highly possible teams like vVv will outlast us all. It's fine if you don't support them because they don't have any players you like. However, I am just trying to explain that these differences should be appreciated for what they are in a space with very few pioneers in their own right.
As far as the way they treat their players, I cannot attest to that as I am not associated with them at all. However, all the players on vVv know what they are signing up for. A big pay-day in the short-term is not it and that might be disappointing to some. Once again, not telling you who you should support..I understand if you do not support them. Just if you're open to it, do a little research behind the team and it might surprise you, it did me.
On December 12 2012 00:41 DeanMalinco wrote: I will add on to the others that have posted in this thread already. I can count at least 5 times I have ran into a vVv player on sc2 NA ladder and been BM'd to absolute hell. So much so that after the 2nd or 3rd time I Googled' your team just to see what other scum were on the team so I could avoid them in the future. Hope you guys turn over a new leaf, but for me....dead.
I think this might be a problem caused by Blizzard's lack of name change and clan support. Whenever we hear about our players BMing anyone we address it, up to removing them from the organization. However, it is impossible for players to change their name once they add vVv tags, so if they continue to BM on ladder after being removed it still reflects on us
So at the end of the day, I don't actually dislike vVv. Nor do I dislike what you're trying to do as a team - there is obviously value to academy teams and such (hell, my team is starting one up ourselves). I think the thing that gets me is the marketing. I think it's great that teams are getting better at marketing themselves, but I think sometimes with vVv that marketing becomes disingenuous. For instance, the most recent pickup for vVv made it seem like the guy was a pro player with many fans. I know I'd barely even heard his name before, and I follow the NA scene as much as anybody does.
The truth is that vVv is essentially a mid-tier NA team - probably most comparable with teams like OG and Optik, and lagging a little bit behind teams like LighT and FXO - NA/Legion in terms of sc2 skill. You guys do a good job of marketing yourselves, and I suppose you have a decent community base - but you aren't the only ones - and it isn't that unique to have academy teams and to be helping players start out with casting and such. Any smart mid-tier NA team does that, because they understand you have to find ways to get noticed every way possible, and it turns out that Casters and Community/Academy teams are good ways to do that.
On December 12 2012 01:05 Zennith wrote: So at the end of the day, I don't actually dislike vVv. Nor do I dislike what you're trying to do as a team - there is obviously value to academy teams and such (hell, my team is starting one up ourselves). I think the thing that gets me is the marketing. I think it's great that teams are getting better at marketing themselves, but I think sometimes with vVv that marketing becomes disingenuous. For instance, the most recent pickup for vVv made it seem like the guy was a pro player with many fans. I know I'd barely even heard his name before, and I follow the NA scene as much as anybody does.
Awesome! I'm glad to hear that you appreciate what we do
Although I'm not sure what you mean by our marketing being disingenuous? From the article:
"Kim’s knowledge of the game and commitment to improve, as well as his dedication to our community made him an easy selection. As the former president of Team OpTiK, Kim has a deep understanding of the growing eSports space, and he will be using that experience to pursue his passions as a player."
That seems to describe exactly the nature of the pickup in my opinion, but if you can point out which parts of the article you thought were disingenuous I'd be more than happy to take it as a lessons learned for future announcements.
The truth is that vVv is essentially a mid-tier NA team - probably most comparable with teams like OG and Optik, and lagging a little bit behind teams like LighT and FXO - NA/Legion in terms of sc2 skill. You guys do a good job of marketing yourselves, and I suppose you have a decent community base - but you aren't the only ones - and it isn't that unique to have academy teams and to be helping players start out with casting and such. Any smart mid-tier NA team does that, because they understand you have to find ways to get noticed every way possible, and it turns out that Casters and Community/Academy teams are good ways to do that.
I think you might have it backwards a little bit here. We have great ideas, find people to implement them, and then do marketing to make sure we capture the interest of people who want to participate. For example, it's difficult to put together an Academy team if you don't tell anyone you're starting one
Everything at vVv starts from the basis of a great idea, and getting known is just a potential side-effect of making sure those ideas get the support they need. As an organization, I feel we are well known, but I don't think we've done a great job of managing that process so that people know WHO we are, they just know us as another team. As a result, I think we get pigeonholed as a "mid-tier NA team" when actually there is much more to vVv than our pro team.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life.
Well, just be sure that you aren't implying that/inferring anything to players along these lines -- Even if you're just inferring it for the short term (6 months). Wouldn't want to set someone back several months in a mix up.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life.
Well, just be sure that you aren't implying that/inferring anything to players along these lines -- Even if you're just inferring it for the short term (6 months). Wouldn't want to set someone back several months in a mix up.
Thanks Glon! We did feel that some of our expectations weren't clearly communicated in the past with some of our sponsored players, so we developed the Experience Initiative program (found here: http://www.vvv-gaming.com/ei/sponsorships ) to correct that. We clearly outline what we expect from players seeking sponsorship there so there won't be any confusion moving forward. I hope you have good luck moving forward and finding a new team to sponsor you!
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
I think you should step back a moment and think about why someone would call you condescending.
On December 06 2012 01:04 Abraham Lincoln wrote: i think your definition of success and happiness is just different than others. what you believe is "doing well" is judged entirely by your standards, and anyone who doesn't conform to those is a failure. "you will never get your 20s back" as if spending your 20s doing something you enjoy is so terrible. instead, should everyone be studying or working 100 hours a week at an office so they can have money in their 30s and 40s? is that what qualifies as success to you?
i actually used to think that too, but in reality its condescending as fuck. people find happiness and fulfillment in their own ways. what you say may very well be true for some people, and many who think like you. but for others, money and long term security at some desk job isn't what they want.
i know plenty of people who get paid fucktons of money to do high skill things but are miserable as shit. i know people that work at shitty menial labor and are some of the happiest people ever. people live their lives in different ways, who are you to tell them what is right and wrong like some judgmental parent?
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
I think you should step back a moment and think about why someone would call you condescending.
On December 06 2012 01:04 Abraham Lincoln wrote: i think your definition of success and happiness is just different than others. what you believe is "doing well" is judged entirely by your standards, and anyone who doesn't conform to those is a failure. "you will never get your 20s back" as if spending your 20s doing something you enjoy is so terrible. instead, should everyone be studying or working 100 hours a week at an office so they can have money in their 30s and 40s? is that what qualifies as success to you?
i actually used to think that too, but in reality its condescending as fuck. people find happiness and fulfillment in their own ways. what you say may very well be true for some people, and many who think like you. but for others, money and long term security at some desk job isn't what they want.
i know plenty of people who get paid fucktons of money to do high skill things but are miserable as shit. i know people that work at shitty menial labor and are some of the happiest people ever. people live their lives in different ways, who are you to tell them what is right and wrong like some judgmental parent?
Absolutely! I totally agree that there are different standards at play here. That's the whole point lol. I just don't understand why it's okay for other teams to throw money at eSports and that's fine, but for vVv to want to do our thing it's condescending? It's very important for there to be vVv's in addition to the other teams so that those who DO want that security and supportive environment have a place to go.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
I think you should step back a moment and think about why someone would call you condescending.
On December 06 2012 01:04 Abraham Lincoln wrote: i think your definition of success and happiness is just different than others. what you believe is "doing well" is judged entirely by your standards, and anyone who doesn't conform to those is a failure. "you will never get your 20s back" as if spending your 20s doing something you enjoy is so terrible. instead, should everyone be studying or working 100 hours a week at an office so they can have money in their 30s and 40s? is that what qualifies as success to you?
i actually used to think that too, but in reality its condescending as fuck. people find happiness and fulfillment in their own ways. what you say may very well be true for some people, and many who think like you. but for others, money and long term security at some desk job isn't what they want.
i know plenty of people who get paid fucktons of money to do high skill things but are miserable as shit. i know people that work at shitty menial labor and are some of the happiest people ever. people live their lives in different ways, who are you to tell them what is right and wrong like some judgmental parent?
Absolutely! I totally agree that there are different standards at play here. That's the whole point lol. I just don't understand why it's okay for other teams to throw money at eSports and that's fine, but for vVv to want to do our thing it's condescending? It's very important for there to be vVv's in addition to the other teams so that those who DO want that security and supportive environment have a place to go.
Oh, and that's the other thing. What sort of actual "security" do you provide? Because the only security of value is monetary/financial, and you guys seem to keep saying you don't actually have any money.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
I think you should step back a moment and think about why someone would call you condescending.
On December 06 2012 01:04 Abraham Lincoln wrote: i think your definition of success and happiness is just different than others. what you believe is "doing well" is judged entirely by your standards, and anyone who doesn't conform to those is a failure. "you will never get your 20s back" as if spending your 20s doing something you enjoy is so terrible. instead, should everyone be studying or working 100 hours a week at an office so they can have money in their 30s and 40s? is that what qualifies as success to you?
i actually used to think that too, but in reality its condescending as fuck. people find happiness and fulfillment in their own ways. what you say may very well be true for some people, and many who think like you. but for others, money and long term security at some desk job isn't what they want.
i know plenty of people who get paid fucktons of money to do high skill things but are miserable as shit. i know people that work at shitty menial labor and are some of the happiest people ever. people live their lives in different ways, who are you to tell them what is right and wrong like some judgmental parent?
Absolutely! I totally agree that there are different standards at play here. That's the whole point lol. I just don't understand why it's okay for other teams to throw money at eSports and that's fine, but for vVv to want to do our thing it's condescending? It's very important for there to be vVv's in addition to the other teams so that those who DO want that security and supportive environment have a place to go.
I honestly think its really just your tone and approach to opinions that differ from your own that becomes really condescending.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
I think you should step back a moment and think about why someone would call you condescending.
On December 06 2012 01:04 Abraham Lincoln wrote: i think your definition of success and happiness is just different than others. what you believe is "doing well" is judged entirely by your standards, and anyone who doesn't conform to those is a failure. "you will never get your 20s back" as if spending your 20s doing something you enjoy is so terrible. instead, should everyone be studying or working 100 hours a week at an office so they can have money in their 30s and 40s? is that what qualifies as success to you?
i actually used to think that too, but in reality its condescending as fuck. people find happiness and fulfillment in their own ways. what you say may very well be true for some people, and many who think like you. but for others, money and long term security at some desk job isn't what they want.
i know plenty of people who get paid fucktons of money to do high skill things but are miserable as shit. i know people that work at shitty menial labor and are some of the happiest people ever. people live their lives in different ways, who are you to tell them what is right and wrong like some judgmental parent?
Absolutely! I totally agree that there are different standards at play here. That's the whole point lol. I just don't understand why it's okay for other teams to throw money at eSports and that's fine, but for vVv to want to do our thing it's condescending? It's very important for there to be vVv's in addition to the other teams so that those who DO want that security and supportive environment have a place to go.
I SINCERELY doubt that a team like vVv is "throwing money" at the community. If you guys are, show me figures. It seems like it would be pretty bad business considering no ones really heard of any of your players, and they aren't really competitive.. If you want to "throw money" at the community, and support the community, go invest in and pick up some known free agents like morrow, naniwa, tod, and the thousands of other homeless high tiered players.
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Lots of hate going around here. Give them a break. They said they've changed management and whatnot, let them prove they're better than before. If they prove otherwise, then you can throw yourself at them again.
On December 11 2012 02:43 SugarBear wrote: [quote]
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
I think you should step back a moment and think about why someone would call you condescending.
On December 06 2012 01:04 Abraham Lincoln wrote: i think your definition of success and happiness is just different than others. what you believe is "doing well" is judged entirely by your standards, and anyone who doesn't conform to those is a failure. "you will never get your 20s back" as if spending your 20s doing something you enjoy is so terrible. instead, should everyone be studying or working 100 hours a week at an office so they can have money in their 30s and 40s? is that what qualifies as success to you?
i actually used to think that too, but in reality its condescending as fuck. people find happiness and fulfillment in their own ways. what you say may very well be true for some people, and many who think like you. but for others, money and long term security at some desk job isn't what they want.
i know plenty of people who get paid fucktons of money to do high skill things but are miserable as shit. i know people that work at shitty menial labor and are some of the happiest people ever. people live their lives in different ways, who are you to tell them what is right and wrong like some judgmental parent?
Absolutely! I totally agree that there are different standards at play here. That's the whole point lol. I just don't understand why it's okay for other teams to throw money at eSports and that's fine, but for vVv to want to do our thing it's condescending? It's very important for there to be vVv's in addition to the other teams so that those who DO want that security and supportive environment have a place to go.
I SINCERELY doubt that a team like vVv is "throwing money" at the community. If you guys are, show me figures. It seems like it would be pretty bad business considering no ones really heard of any of your players, and they aren't really competitive.. If you want to "throw money" at the community, and support the community, go invest in and pick up some known free agents like morrow, naniwa, tod, and the thousands of other homeless high tiered players.
I think you misunderstood the context of that statement. I was saying that _other teams_ are out there throwing money around to purchase talent. This is never something vVv has done.
On December 12 2012 08:17 snively wrote: i know hteres like another discussion going on, but does anyone know what happened to vvvtitan? i loved that guy
Last I talked to him he was back to playing the trumpet and was thinking about picking up LoL. I miss him too
On December 10 2012 13:32 blade55555 wrote: The reason you guys get talked down is the way you guys treated your players in general.
It was kind of a joke what you wanted them to do and how little they got in return. Combine with the fact that you guys don't even keep your promises to your players (I am not going to name names of players). I know many who were top tier players on vVv but were treated like shit.
Again I won't name names to keep them confidential but man one of the best decisions I ever made was leaving that team especially from what I heard afterwords. I don't know if you guys changed management or anything, but I imagine it's still the same.
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
On December 11 2012 02:43 SugarBear wrote: [quote]
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
I think you should step back a moment and think about why someone would call you condescending.
On December 06 2012 01:04 Abraham Lincoln wrote: i think your definition of success and happiness is just different than others. what you believe is "doing well" is judged entirely by your standards, and anyone who doesn't conform to those is a failure. "you will never get your 20s back" as if spending your 20s doing something you enjoy is so terrible. instead, should everyone be studying or working 100 hours a week at an office so they can have money in their 30s and 40s? is that what qualifies as success to you?
i actually used to think that too, but in reality its condescending as fuck. people find happiness and fulfillment in their own ways. what you say may very well be true for some people, and many who think like you. but for others, money and long term security at some desk job isn't what they want.
i know plenty of people who get paid fucktons of money to do high skill things but are miserable as shit. i know people that work at shitty menial labor and are some of the happiest people ever. people live their lives in different ways, who are you to tell them what is right and wrong like some judgmental parent?
Absolutely! I totally agree that there are different standards at play here. That's the whole point lol. I just don't understand why it's okay for other teams to throw money at eSports and that's fine, but for vVv to want to do our thing it's condescending? It's very important for there to be vVv's in addition to the other teams so that those who DO want that security and supportive environment have a place to go.
I honestly think its really just your tone and approach to opinions that differ from your own that becomes really condescending.
Okay, I looked back at what was said and I think this is the particular statement people are finding condescending, correct?
"Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment."
It's just been my experience as a manager that there are a lot of people out there holding out for salary, that haven't really achieved any big success competitively, or built a strong following. I'm sorry if I seemed to be implying that people weren't capable of making their own decisions...
On December 11 2012 02:43 SugarBear wrote: [quote]
I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
I just read through some of the recent thread and have go to say that personally, I'm impressed with approach (at least the idea behind it) as well as the way SugarBear is handling criticism here. Good luck in the future -- I hope you find that this approach DOES in fact lead to much success.
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2.
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
I think that's only as true as we make it.
Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team.
On December 12 2012 00:24 SugarBear wrote: [quote]
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed.
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
I think that's only as true as we make it.
Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team.
Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University.
On December 12 2012 08:17 snively wrote: i know hteres like another discussion going on, but does anyone know what happened to vvvtitan? i loved that guy
Last I talked to him he was back to playing the trumpet and was thinking about picking up LoL. I miss him too
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is.
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
I think that's only as true as we make it.
Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team.
Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University.
I guess that's one way to do it. I got in with high grades and fantastic life experience.
On December 12 2012 05:15 SugarBear wrote: [quote]
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that?
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
I think that's only as true as we make it.
Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team.
Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University.
I guess that's one way to do it. I got in with high grades and fantastic life experience.
This. Most of the time, if you bring up video games during an interview, that will make you less likely to be taken seriously.
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself.
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
I think that's only as true as we make it.
Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team.
Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University.
I guess that's one way to do it. I got in with high grades and fantastic life experience.
This. Most of the time, if you bring up video games during an interview, that will make you less likely to be taken seriously.
I dunno... I have talked about my gaming experiences extensively in college interviews and interviewers have always been very positively received, although obviously not the same as a job interview, if you talk about something that you're really passionate about..
On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote: [quote]
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive.
First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education.
Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize:
1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term.
2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending?
I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending.
Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join.
3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2".
4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion.
5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right?
But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism.
I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area.
Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
I think that's only as true as we make it.
Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team.
Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University.
I guess that's one way to do it. I got in with high grades and fantastic life experience.
This. Most of the time, if you bring up video games during an interview, that will make you less likely to be taken seriously.
I dunno... I have talked about my gaming experiences extensively in college interviews and interviewers have always been very positively received, although obviously not the same as a job interview, if you talk about something that you're really passionate about..
That's the thing - it's probably good for college apps. But in real job app situations, people really don't want to hear that. I say that as someone who has done hiring myself.
To Zennith. You really need to calm down. Don't try to say that just because you've hired others that it never can benefit you, or it will make you be taken less seriously. It's really about the place and time when you talk about it. If you just try to force SC2 into a job interview, or anything at that, it's obviously not going to be as well received as it could have been.
The key to talking about this is when it's something you say to set you apart from others in the company. What makes you unique, and what makes you a good employee. If you talk about what coaching has done for you, or what a community you've been a part of has done to you it really goes a long way.
The job world is about how you market yourself and to just give you a small chain of events of something that can easily come of being involved with something like vVv's community here is how it can go. College -> Fraternities -> Gaming -> leadership skill set -> networking -> job positioning -> what sets you apart -> fraternity leadership and ability to lead hundreds within a community to a common goal.
If you rephrase that as, "yeah, I was in a fraternity and I play starcraft and it's really fun" obviously you won't be well received. But in a work place where you can show with solid evidence you can take care of yourself, and even others, that is something employers think highly of regardless of where you obtain the skill set. At the end of the day they want results and if you can prove to them your ability to lead a community, playing games or whatever else can meet their standards it's only something that sets you apart from the other people. Small things like that land you jobs instead of prevent you from getting them. Just look at IPL. Why do you think we even have that? Because someone used the right wording at the right time with the right people. Do you think IGN just woke up one day and was like.. yeah.. lets start an Esports league! No, it had to be pitched, explained, and reasoned with as to why it could help the company. At the end of the day it's a revenue venture. They want your results as an employee. It's up to how the person does it. If you can do it right it can help you no doubt about it.
On December 12 2012 14:22 -Kyo- wrote: To Zennith. You really need to calm down. Don't try to say that just because you've hired others that it never can benefit you, or it will make you be taken less seriously. It's really about the place and time when you talk about it. If you just try to force SC2 into a job interview, or anything at that, it's obviously not going to be as well received as it could have been.
The key to talking about this is when it's something you say to set you apart from others in the company. What makes you unique, and what makes you a good employee. If you talk about what coaching has done for you, or what a community you've been a part of has done to you it really goes a long way.
The job world is about how you market yourself and to just give you a small chain of events of something that can easily come of being involved with something like vVv's community here is how it can go. College -> Fraternities -> Gaming -> leadership skill set -> networking -> job positioning -> what sets you apart -> fraternity leadership and ability to lead hundreds within a community to a common goal.
If you rephrase that as, "yeah, I was in a fraternity and I play starcraft and it's really fun" obviously you won't be well received. But in a work place where you can show with solid evidence you can take care of yourself, and even others, that is something employers think highly of regardless of where you obtain the skill set. At the end of the day they want results and if you can prove to them your ability to lead a community, playing games or whatever else can meet their standards it's only something that sets you apart from the other people. Small things like that land you jobs instead of prevent you from getting them. Just look at IPL. Why do you think we even have that? Because someone used the right wording at the right time with the right people. Do you think IGN just woke up one day and was like.. yeah.. lets start an Esports league! No, it had to be pitched, explained, and reasoned with as to why it could help the company. At the end of the day it's a revenue venture. They want your results as an employee. It's up to how the person does it. If you can do it right it can help you no doubt about it.
Yeah, this is a great post, and you're totally correct. I completely agree with you. I like to argue and find points to disagree with sometimes, I'll admit. But what you say is completely correct.
On December 12 2012 08:49 Zenbrez wrote: Lots of hate going around here. Give them a break. They said they've changed management and whatnot, let them prove they're better than before. If they prove otherwise, then you can throw yourself at them again.
The main source of hate/problems are directed towards their owner. Did you see some of his posts before? So changing ''management'' didnt exactly happen before.
On December 12 2012 08:49 Zenbrez wrote: Lots of hate going around here. Give them a break. They said they've changed management and whatnot, let them prove they're better than before. If they prove otherwise, then you can throw yourself at them again.
The main source of hate/problems are directed towards their owner. Did you see some of his posts before? So changing ''management'' didnt exactly happen before.
Our owner now works at Riot, management officially changed about a month ago.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/RuFF_resize_0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/hasuu_resize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/nub.png)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/babytoss_resize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/Fearful_resize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/sontran_resize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/nazgul_resize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/poser_resize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/TuFF_resize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/Oakwarrior_resize.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/sites/default/files/reere%2Bresize.jpg)
also <3vVv 
.
Is it creepy I know you and you don't know me? Oh yeah sounds about right. Sucks they gave vVv a bad name because Im not the only one from WC3 that thought that 
