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On December 12 2012 08:58 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 08:49 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:09 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 07:17 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 05:15 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 Glon wrote:On December 12 2012 00:24 SugarBear wrote:On December 11 2012 14:11 hunts wrote:On December 11 2012 02:43 SugarBear wrote:[quote] I don't think there's a successful team that doesn't ask a lot from its players. Look at the horrible state that NA SC2 is in right now, with Checksix AND Quantic falling apart in the past few months  Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2. I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2. However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2. If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2. If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2. If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2. So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed. The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is. That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game. I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports. On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that? See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself. But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing. Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive. First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education. Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize: 1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term. 2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending? I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending. Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join. 3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2". 4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion. 5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right? But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area. Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired.
I think that's only as true as we make it.
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I just read through some of the recent thread and have go to say that personally, I'm impressed with approach (at least the idea behind it) as well as the way SugarBear is handling criticism here. Good luck in the future -- I hope you find that this approach DOES in fact lead to much success.
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On December 12 2012 09:03 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 08:58 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 08:49 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:09 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 07:17 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 05:15 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 Glon wrote:On December 12 2012 00:24 SugarBear wrote:On December 11 2012 14:11 hunts wrote:
[quote]
Because they really invested in SC2, as much as I'm not a fan of either team (especially checksix) they at least gave SC2 their all. VVV wont fail because they don't give their players much of anything but ask for a lot in return. So no, while those teams had to shut down, vvv wont because vvv doesn't actually invest in SC2. I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2. However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2. If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2. If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2. If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2. So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed. The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is. That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game. I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports. On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that? See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself. But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing. Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive. First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education. Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize: 1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term. 2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending? I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending. Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join. 3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2". 4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion. 5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right? But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area. Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired. I think that's only as true as we make it.
Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team.
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On December 12 2012 09:39 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 09:03 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:58 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 08:49 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:09 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 07:17 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 05:15 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 Glon wrote:On December 12 2012 00:24 SugarBear wrote:
[quote]
I think we already made it clear in the video that our focus is on the community, so if the only way to "invest in SC2" is by buying pro players, then I suppose we don't invest in SC2.
However, if providing a place with an active community of Aspiring SC2 players for others to come and join and make the eSports scene great is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If providing a welcoming environment for people to share and develop skills necessary for eSports to thrive, such as streaming, casting, eSports journalism, video editing, etc. is investing in SC2 then we do invest in SC2.
If creating a sustainable model where we can sponsor players to events while helping them develop real-world marketable skills without bankrupting ourselves is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
If providing a place for all the fans of all the pro teams in the world to get together to grow and learn is investing in SC2 then we invest in SC2.
So either my time is worthless to you and I'm only useful as a cash register and not a human being trying to help make this eSports thing work, or your perspective is deeply, deeply flawed. The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is. That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game. I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports. On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that? See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself. But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing. Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive. First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education. Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize: 1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term. 2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending? I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending. Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join. 3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2". 4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion. 5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right? But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area. Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired. I think that's only as true as we make it. Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team.
Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University.
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On December 12 2012 08:51 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 08:17 snively wrote:i know hteres like another discussion going on, but does anyone know what happened to vvvtitan? i loved that guy  Last I talked to him he was back to playing the trumpet and was thinking about picking up LoL. I miss him too
edit:
http://www.twitch.tv/vvvtitan/b/345811967
or dota 2, i guess
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On December 12 2012 10:02 robzgod wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 09:39 chadissilent wrote:On December 12 2012 09:03 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:58 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 08:49 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:09 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 07:17 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 05:15 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 Glon wrote:
[quote]
The problem that you will run into then is why have sponsored players? If you have sponsored players, you need to invest in them and infrastructure to back them. But then again, if you DON'T have sponsored players, what is there to aspire to for younger players? It's a vicious circle -- not really sure what they answer is. That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game. I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports. On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that? See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself. But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing. Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive. First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education. Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize: 1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term. 2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending? I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending. Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join. 3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2". 4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion. 5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right? But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area. Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired. I think that's only as true as we make it. Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team. Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University.
I guess that's one way to do it. I got in with high grades and fantastic life experience.
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On December 12 2012 10:18 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 10:02 robzgod wrote:On December 12 2012 09:39 chadissilent wrote:On December 12 2012 09:03 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:58 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 08:49 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:09 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 07:17 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 05:15 SugarBear wrote:
[quote]
That's a really good question, honestly. The reason we'd sponsor players is because they are willing to work with the community and are just looking for a chance to prove themselves. Alternatively, it's possible a sponsored player might realize the benefits of developing skills for their life post-starcraft, although I don't hold out much hope for this in the current environment. The Quantic bust might change that, but if you look at any professional sport, most players aren't going to retire off of the money they made playing the game.
I think it's kind of terrifying that SC2 players think they can get a salary just playing the game, and then they'll be taken care of for life. Yes, some people can do that, but it's just not realistic for the majority of players. I doubt even the idras and Naniwas will make enough to retire, and that's basically the best the West has to offer in terms of player skill. What you then realize is that the stigma attached to being a pro-gamer is going to become even worse when a bunch of people who gave this venture a try end up crashing and burning because they had no plan. That sets a horrible example for future parents who might otherwise support their children going pro in eSports.
On the other hand you have players like Incontrol who pour their heart and soul into eSports. He might not have impressive tournament results lately, but I guarantee you he's built a solid resume to be able to land a job if this were all to go away tomorrow. It might not be his dream job, but he'd be able to take care of himself. I think that's what we need to strive for as a community. If we don't teach our players to become self-sufficient, then we're basically running on a model of "use em up and once they become useless and burnt out toss em". Who would want to work in an industry like that? See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself. But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing. Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive. First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education. Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize: 1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term. 2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending? I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending. Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join. 3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2". 4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion. 5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right? But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area. Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired. I think that's only as true as we make it. Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team. Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University. I guess that's one way to do it. I got in with high grades and fantastic life experience.
This. Most of the time, if you bring up video games during an interview, that will make you less likely to be taken seriously.
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On December 12 2012 11:16 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 10:18 chadissilent wrote:On December 12 2012 10:02 robzgod wrote:On December 12 2012 09:39 chadissilent wrote:On December 12 2012 09:03 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:58 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 08:49 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:09 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 07:17 Zennith wrote:
[quote]
See, I think this is condescending as shit. Who are you to assume that players are idiots who don't realize the reality of the situation? Who truly gets into esports thinking that they'll be able to retire off of their earnings? I'd argue almost absolutely NOBODY goes into it thinking this. As a community, our responsibility is towards bolstering and supporting the scene as much as we can. Which means developing players and people, sure. The vast majority of players I know, and pretty much all of the players on my team, have real life things going on. I have a job, I pay rent. Many are in school are in college. Even a lot of pro players aren't putting all of their eggs in one basket. So you're pretending like everybody in the scene is a big fucking idiot, and it's your job to fix that? Honestly, if you think that you're the only team that can do that and that everybody else is encouraging their players to quit their jobs and do nothing else with their lives, well, go fuck yourself. But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing. Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive. First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education. Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize: 1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term. 2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending? I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending. Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join. 3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2". 4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion. 5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right? But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area. Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired. I think that's only as true as we make it. Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team. Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University. I guess that's one way to do it. I got in with high grades and fantastic life experience. This. Most of the time, if you bring up video games during an interview, that will make you less likely to be taken seriously.
I dunno... I have talked about my gaming experiences extensively in college interviews and interviewers have always been very positively received, although obviously not the same as a job interview, if you talk about something that you're really passionate about..
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On December 12 2012 11:24 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 11:16 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 10:18 chadissilent wrote:On December 12 2012 10:02 robzgod wrote:On December 12 2012 09:39 chadissilent wrote:On December 12 2012 09:03 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:58 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 08:49 SugarBear wrote:On December 12 2012 08:09 Zennith wrote:On December 12 2012 07:40 SugarBear wrote:
[quote]
But a lot of players ARE doing that, they're dropping out of school and moving to team houses in the hopes of going pro. That's great if it works out, but calling us condescending isn't going to change the reality of the situation or help those players who feel tremendous pressure to spend all of their time practicing.
Absolutely other teams can help develop players, but when you have teams purchasing every GM player with an MLG record then the competition swings in favor of getting the player as opposed to making sure the player is doing the things he needs to in order to develop real life skills. If you think every team out there is developing their players outside of the game then you are very naive. First of all, please define "A lot". Because I can't actually think of all that many people. And in any case, they aren't for the most part LOSING money. They're spending time doing what they want to do, who are you to say that's bad? And in terms of teams like EG - no, they don't have to develop their players outside of sc2, because they're players are actually making money. The only reason you have to do what you're doing is because you can't afford to actually pay your players a living wage. Instead, you call them pro-players (even though they aren't) and you pretend like you're teaching them how to live after sc2. I really, really doubt the education they're getting from you is more useful than a collegiate education. Of course I don't think every team is helping players develop outside of sc2. I'm sure some do. And people gain real life skills in a number of different ways. But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. So, I think we've come full circle in this argument because I just don't see us getting anywhere the way this is circling around. To summarize: 1. You believe the only security (and in fact value) that organizations can provide their players is money. We believe that developing real life marketable skills is also a way to give something to players that will be far more valuable long-term. 2. By believing that it's better for players to develop real-world marketable skills and a resume that will sell, we are somehow condescending? I'm sure Pilot believes Pilot G-2 pens are the best on the market in their price range. I don't think that makes them condescending, I think that means that there are attributes to the pen that makes it preferable to others, and that their pen is ideal for solving my writing problems. I'm not going to then go around using other varieties of pens because I think Pilot is condescending because they believe in their product. I'm going to choose the pen that best suits me, which happens to be the Pilot G-2. If players don't agree that what vVv has to offer them is the best choice for them to develop, then they are free to "choose another pen". That doesn't mean I'm going to stop believing that what we have to offer is any less valuable, or that believing in it makes me condescending. Look, I've already described the problem scenarios that we are trying to solve, namely with helping players realize the most value from their time spent gaming. If that is not a problem for a particular player, then they don't have to join. 3. I never suggested that we were providing a collegiate education, just training for players in how to market themselves and grow a fan base. A resume that lists: "Starcraft 2 Player: Marketed myself using social media techniques, interviews, show appearances, (all of this also provides content opportunities for the SC2 community, aspiring casters and commentators and show hosts, by the way) etc." will look better than one that says, "Starcraft 2 Player: Played Starcraft 2". 4. Do we think we're better than everyone else? I think you're confusing action with identity here. We believe we have the best model in eSports, otherwise why would we be here? We definitely believe in what we do, otherwise why would we do it? That's part of being passionate about something and believing in it 100%. If you don't believe the same way, that doesn't make us condescending, that just means you have a different opinion. 5. 1-4 all reflect on pro players and completely ignore what we do for the community, which is the biggest part of our organization and what I feel should be the focus of a discussion on whether or not we are "condescending" right? But either way, I think you guys are annoying and condescending because you think you're better than everyone else, you think you know "the" right way to do things, and you always, ALWAYS get condescending and overly defensive any time anybody makes the smallest little criticism. I don't really see where I've been defensive at all. I think this conversation has been very useful in helping to explain the values and philosophy of vVv in a way that anyone can understand. Like I said at the start, we've done a very poor job of WHO IS vVv Gaming, so the more I can describe our organization in a way that gets past your misconceptions, the better job I do of improving us in that area. Honestly, I'm not even joking: If you put Starcraft 2 anywhere on your resume, you're probably not getting hired. I think that's only as true as we make it. Honestly, if you're worrying about using Starcraft experience on your résumé, you probably aren't looking at a good job anyways. If I apply for an engineering job a a multinational oil company, there's not a fucking chance that SC2 goes anywhere near my résumé. It'll be design experience, construction experience, automotive engineering experience, oilfield experience, etc. Nobody cares that you posted some threads on TL to market your team. Yes in that example you are 100% correct, however in more conventional career paths like business, finance, marketing, digital media, etc - it's completely viable. There is no shame in talking your passion during an interview either, hell that was how I go into my top choice University. I guess that's one way to do it. I got in with high grades and fantastic life experience. This. Most of the time, if you bring up video games during an interview, that will make you less likely to be taken seriously. I dunno... I have talked about my gaming experiences extensively in college interviews and interviewers have always been very positively received, although obviously not the same as a job interview, if you talk about something that you're really passionate about..
That's the thing - it's probably good for college apps. But in real job app situations, people really don't want to hear that. I say that as someone who has done hiring myself.
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To Zennith. You really need to calm down. Don't try to say that just because you've hired others that it never can benefit you, or it will make you be taken less seriously. It's really about the place and time when you talk about it. If you just try to force SC2 into a job interview, or anything at that, it's obviously not going to be as well received as it could have been.
The key to talking about this is when it's something you say to set you apart from others in the company. What makes you unique, and what makes you a good employee. If you talk about what coaching has done for you, or what a community you've been a part of has done to you it really goes a long way.
The job world is about how you market yourself and to just give you a small chain of events of something that can easily come of being involved with something like vVv's community here is how it can go. College -> Fraternities -> Gaming -> leadership skill set -> networking -> job positioning -> what sets you apart -> fraternity leadership and ability to lead hundreds within a community to a common goal.
If you rephrase that as, "yeah, I was in a fraternity and I play starcraft and it's really fun" obviously you won't be well received. But in a work place where you can show with solid evidence you can take care of yourself, and even others, that is something employers think highly of regardless of where you obtain the skill set. At the end of the day they want results and if you can prove to them your ability to lead a community, playing games or whatever else can meet their standards it's only something that sets you apart from the other people. Small things like that land you jobs instead of prevent you from getting them. Just look at IPL. Why do you think we even have that? Because someone used the right wording at the right time with the right people. Do you think IGN just woke up one day and was like.. yeah.. lets start an Esports league! No, it had to be pitched, explained, and reasoned with as to why it could help the company. At the end of the day it's a revenue venture. They want your results as an employee. It's up to how the person does it. If you can do it right it can help you no doubt about it.
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On December 12 2012 14:22 -Kyo- wrote:
To Zennith. You really need to calm down. Don't try to say that just because you've hired others that it never can benefit you, or it will make you be taken less seriously. It's really about the place and time when you talk about it. If you just try to force SC2 into a job interview, or anything at that, it's obviously not going to be as well received as it could have been.
The key to talking about this is when it's something you say to set you apart from others in the company. What makes you unique, and what makes you a good employee. If you talk about what coaching has done for you, or what a community you've been a part of has done to you it really goes a long way.
The job world is about how you market yourself and to just give you a small chain of events of something that can easily come of being involved with something like vVv's community here is how it can go. College -> Fraternities -> Gaming -> leadership skill set -> networking -> job positioning -> what sets you apart -> fraternity leadership and ability to lead hundreds within a community to a common goal.
If you rephrase that as, "yeah, I was in a fraternity and I play starcraft and it's really fun" obviously you won't be well received. But in a work place where you can show with solid evidence you can take care of yourself, and even others, that is something employers think highly of regardless of where you obtain the skill set. At the end of the day they want results and if you can prove to them your ability to lead a community, playing games or whatever else can meet their standards it's only something that sets you apart from the other people. Small things like that land you jobs instead of prevent you from getting them. Just look at IPL. Why do you think we even have that? Because someone used the right wording at the right time with the right people. Do you think IGN just woke up one day and was like.. yeah.. lets start an Esports league! No, it had to be pitched, explained, and reasoned with as to why it could help the company. At the end of the day it's a revenue venture. They want your results as an employee. It's up to how the person does it. If you can do it right it can help you no doubt about it.
Yeah, this is a great post, and you're totally correct. I completely agree with you. I like to argue and find points to disagree with sometimes, I'll admit. But what you say is completely correct.
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On December 12 2012 08:49 Zenbrez wrote:
Lots of hate going around here. Give them a break. They said they've changed management and whatnot, let them prove they're better than before. If they prove otherwise, then you can throw yourself at them again.
The main source of hate/problems are directed towards their owner. Did you see some of his posts before? So changing ''management'' didnt exactly happen before.
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On December 12 2012 17:17 Shortizz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 08:49 Zenbrez wrote:
Lots of hate going around here. Give them a break. They said they've changed management and whatnot, let them prove they're better than before. If they prove otherwise, then you can throw yourself at them again. The main source of hate/problems are directed towards their owner. Did you see some of his posts before? So changing ''management'' didnt exactly happen before.
Our owner now works at Riot, management officially changed about a month ago.
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EPT
