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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 13 2012 09:45 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:50 plogamer wrote:
Bahahaha. Nothing as racist as treating a racial slur as "normal". You live in a very racist area, my friend. Like many others have said, it's interchangeable
No, it isn't.
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On March 13 2012 12:03 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 12:01 Spieltor wrote:On March 13 2012 11:51 BreakfastTea wrote:On March 13 2012 11:24 Spieltor wrote:On March 13 2012 11:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2012 09:12 jfourz wrote:
i understand why EG don't want someone with so much "bad press" representing them, and i understand and accept why casters are expected to be hyper-PC all the time, since they are so "client facing" as it were.
but a post like this, condemning everyone who uses the word nigger or faggot is too much. just because you believe the words are hateful and despicable, does not make them so. indeed, this is even addressed in the OP; you say you don't expect everyone to subscribe to your ideals, but then you expect everyone to. you ask us to forgive orb, without questioning whether we agree he was in the wrong first.
in my mind, forcing this crap down our throats is drawing awfully close to the people who propagate racism, just in the opposite direction. it's more socially acceptable to be this sort of extremist, yes, but does that make it any more "right"?
edit: of course these are just my opinions, i should probably have mentioned that already Yes it's more right. Racism is wrong, thus it's wrong to promote it. Being anti-racism is morally correct, therefore it is more "right" to take this stance. devil's advocate, if its wrong to promote intolerance, anti-racism is as intolerant as racism itself. Zero tolerance = full intolerance. right? Just the last bit of evidence that this thread needs to be closed. you may not like it, but intolerance is what causes hate, which is a fact. And racism's underlying cause is intolerance. Intolerance leads to anger, which leads to hate, and all that other yoda crap. Most eastern philosophers advocate "the middle way" or "the balanced way", even Bruce Lee. To fight intolerance with intolerance is to simply go from one extreme to the other. Are you going to say this isn't true? Yes. That is not true. And if people are saying "well you're just being bigoted towards bigots" then they are truly not going to be convinced.
Neither are people who blindly cling to the absurd notion that "certain words" may only be used in one context, despite the fact that literally millions of people claim to mean something completely different when using them.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 13 2012 11:24 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2012 09:12 jfourz wrote:
i understand why EG don't want someone with so much "bad press" representing them, and i understand and accept why casters are expected to be hyper-PC all the time, since they are so "client facing" as it were.
but a post like this, condemning everyone who uses the word nigger or faggot is too much. just because you believe the words are hateful and despicable, does not make them so. indeed, this is even addressed in the OP; you say you don't expect everyone to subscribe to your ideals, but then you expect everyone to. you ask us to forgive orb, without questioning whether we agree he was in the wrong first.
in my mind, forcing this crap down our throats is drawing awfully close to the people who propagate racism, just in the opposite direction. it's more socially acceptable to be this sort of extremist, yes, but does that make it any more "right"?
edit: of course these are just my opinions, i should probably have mentioned that already Yes it's more right. Racism is wrong, thus it's wrong to promote it. Being anti-racism is morally correct, therefore it is more "right" to take this stance. devil's advocate, if its wrong to promote intolerance, anti-racism is as intolerant as racism itself. Zero tolerance = full intolerance. right?
Um, the conclusion of your argument is that we all have to be accepting of everything everyone ever does, because to be intolerant of that action is intolerance itself, which is what you have a problem with.
No, that's full of shit. Nobody said you can't be intolerant of ideas or behaviors, you shouldn't be intolerant of certain things, like race, gender, ability (referring to the state of being well-bodied or handicapped) etc. It doesn't follow that it's not acceptable to refuse to tolerate a shitty behavior or idea like racism itself.
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On March 13 2012 12:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 12:03 Klondikebar wrote:On March 13 2012 12:01 Spieltor wrote:On March 13 2012 11:51 BreakfastTea wrote:On March 13 2012 11:24 Spieltor wrote:On March 13 2012 11:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2012 09:12 jfourz wrote:
i understand why EG don't want someone with so much "bad press" representing them, and i understand and accept why casters are expected to be hyper-PC all the time, since they are so "client facing" as it were.
but a post like this, condemning everyone who uses the word nigger or faggot is too much. just because you believe the words are hateful and despicable, does not make them so. indeed, this is even addressed in the OP; you say you don't expect everyone to subscribe to your ideals, but then you expect everyone to. you ask us to forgive orb, without questioning whether we agree he was in the wrong first.
in my mind, forcing this crap down our throats is drawing awfully close to the people who propagate racism, just in the opposite direction. it's more socially acceptable to be this sort of extremist, yes, but does that make it any more "right"?
edit: of course these are just my opinions, i should probably have mentioned that already Yes it's more right. Racism is wrong, thus it's wrong to promote it. Being anti-racism is morally correct, therefore it is more "right" to take this stance. devil's advocate, if its wrong to promote intolerance, anti-racism is as intolerant as racism itself. Zero tolerance = full intolerance. right? Just the last bit of evidence that this thread needs to be closed. you may not like it, but intolerance is what causes hate, which is a fact. And racism's underlying cause is intolerance. Intolerance leads to anger, which leads to hate, and all that other yoda crap. Most eastern philosophers advocate "the middle way" or "the balanced way", even Bruce Lee. To fight intolerance with intolerance is to simply go from one extreme to the other. Are you going to say this isn't true? Yes. That is not true. And if people are saying "well you're just being bigoted towards bigots" then they are truly not going to be convinced. Neither are people who blindly cling to the absurd notion that "certain words" may only be used in one context, despite the fact that literally millions of people claim to mean something completely different when using them.
Those millions of people happen to be the very majority that used those words to marginalize the minorities to which those words refer. Appealing to the majority is the exact WRONG thing to do in this instance since it's because of the majority that those words are taboo in the first place.
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On March 13 2012 11:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 09:12 jfourz wrote:
i understand why EG don't want someone with so much "bad press" representing them, and i understand and accept why casters are expected to be hyper-PC all the time, since they are so "client facing" as it were.
but a post like this, condemning everyone who uses the word nigger or faggot is too much. just because you believe the words are hateful and despicable, does not make them so. indeed, this is even addressed in the OP; you say you don't expect everyone to subscribe to your ideals, but then you expect everyone to. you ask us to forgive orb, without questioning whether we agree he was in the wrong first.
in my mind, forcing this crap down our throats is drawing awfully close to the people who propagate racism, just in the opposite direction. it's more socially acceptable to be this sort of extremist, yes, but does that make it any more "right"?
edit: of course these are just my opinions, i should probably have mentioned that already Yes it's more right. Racism is wrong, thus it's wrong to promote it. Being anti-racism is morally correct, therefore it is more "right" to take this stance.
Did you not even read the OP? Alex doesn't think orb is racist, or that he is actively promoting racism. He's just saying that he thinks the use of the word is unacceptable.
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On March 13 2012 12:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 12:03 Klondikebar wrote:On March 13 2012 12:01 Spieltor wrote:On March 13 2012 11:51 BreakfastTea wrote:On March 13 2012 11:24 Spieltor wrote:On March 13 2012 11:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2012 09:12 jfourz wrote:
i understand why EG don't want someone with so much "bad press" representing them, and i understand and accept why casters are expected to be hyper-PC all the time, since they are so "client facing" as it were.
but a post like this, condemning everyone who uses the word nigger or faggot is too much. just because you believe the words are hateful and despicable, does not make them so. indeed, this is even addressed in the OP; you say you don't expect everyone to subscribe to your ideals, but then you expect everyone to. you ask us to forgive orb, without questioning whether we agree he was in the wrong first.
in my mind, forcing this crap down our throats is drawing awfully close to the people who propagate racism, just in the opposite direction. it's more socially acceptable to be this sort of extremist, yes, but does that make it any more "right"?
edit: of course these are just my opinions, i should probably have mentioned that already Yes it's more right. Racism is wrong, thus it's wrong to promote it. Being anti-racism is morally correct, therefore it is more "right" to take this stance. devil's advocate, if its wrong to promote intolerance, anti-racism is as intolerant as racism itself. Zero tolerance = full intolerance. right? Just the last bit of evidence that this thread needs to be closed. you may not like it, but intolerance is what causes hate, which is a fact. And racism's underlying cause is intolerance. Intolerance leads to anger, which leads to hate, and all that other yoda crap. Most eastern philosophers advocate "the middle way" or "the balanced way", even Bruce Lee. To fight intolerance with intolerance is to simply go from one extreme to the other. Are you going to say this isn't true? Yes. That is not true. And if people are saying "well you're just being bigoted towards bigots" then they are truly not going to be convinced. Neither are people who blindly cling to the absurd notion that "certain words" may only be used in one context, despite the fact that literally millions of people claim to mean something completely different when using them.
You are correct.
Some people would say "What a stupid nigger" interchangeably with "What a stupid idiot" rather than "What a stupid black guy". But everyone knows that the word "nigger" is most prominently known to refer to black people. Therefore by using "nigger" in a derogatory manner, he is making and spreading the assumption that being black is a bad thing. Just like when people say "that's gay", they might not be referring to homosexuality but they are promoting the idea that homosexuality is negative.
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How anyone can be "disappointed" with EG's decision is still beyond me. You act as if someone dug up tape on a major news anchor calling people "dumb n---ers", he wouldn't be stoned and fired on the spot. Come on, it doesn't matter if it happened before or after he joined, what world do you live in where sponsors and team managers would be ok with this? Alex should just let it blow over? rofl, it's a PR shitstorm. Once it was shown to not be an isolated incident, there was literally no other way this could have gone down.
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On March 13 2012 11:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:42 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 08:34 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer.
Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such. Millions? Really? Maybe a couple million self-entitled, bitchy little nerds and knuckleheads -- in a continent with over 500 million people. Explicitly talking down to people you accuse of implicitly talking down to a minority isn't exactly making you look good.
I don't need to look good. And I'm not ashamed of talking down to nerds.
Orb, at minimum, was expected to make EG look good. And EG was rightfully ashamed of his behavior, because it was insulting to minorities as well.
If you think I should apologize for having contempt for people that call other people dumb niggers just because they have no self-control, than you have been spending WAAAAAY too much time on the Internet. If we both went to a coffee shop and explained the scenario to ordinary people, and how you feel I'm being rude and should be more respectful to Orb or his apologists, I assure you -- 19 out of 20 people would think you're nuts and the last person would just be insanely depressed.
I'm pretty sure you're a decent guy and I don't mean to harp on you specifically, but maaaan people in this community need a reality check.
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I agree with the decision to remove Orb, but I cannot help but be disappointed by the hypocrisy displayed over it.
EG has players who rage in the way (using different, and arguably worse, derogatory remarks - NOTE: Sadly I am at work and cannot connect to streams to grab any vods) and nothing is done about them.
So, while I support the current decision, I will still be contacting EG's sponsors to voice my disappointment until something is done to curb player profanity (and not just a talking to).
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On March 13 2012 14:23 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:16 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:42 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 08:34 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable.
He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts.
In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences.
Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such. Millions? Really? Maybe a couple million self-entitled, bitchy little nerds and knuckleheads -- in a continent with over 500 million people. Explicitly talking down to people you accuse of implicitly talking down to a minority isn't exactly making you look good. I don't need to look good. And I'm not ashamed of talking down to nerds. Orb, at minimum, was expected to make EG look good. And EG was rightfully ashamed of his behavior, because it was insulting to minorities as well. If you think I should apologize for having contempt for people that call other people dumb niggers just because they have no self-control, than you have been spending WAAAAAY too much time on the Internet. If we both went to a coffee shop and explained the scenario to ordinary people, and how you feel I'm being rude and should be more respectful to Orb or his apologists, I assure you -- 19 out of 20 people would think you're nuts and the last person would just be insanely depressed. I'm pretty sure you're a decent guy and I don't mean to harp on you specifically, but maaaan people in this community need a reality check.
The mean-spiritedness of this post is worse than anything orb said, because where he, at worst, "lacked self control," you are pointedly stereotyping an entire group of people on false pretenses.
get out.
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On March 13 2012 23:44 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 14:23 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 11:16 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:42 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 08:34 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job.
If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend.
If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such. Millions? Really? Maybe a couple million self-entitled, bitchy little nerds and knuckleheads -- in a continent with over 500 million people. Explicitly talking down to people you accuse of implicitly talking down to a minority isn't exactly making you look good. I don't need to look good. And I'm not ashamed of talking down to nerds. Orb, at minimum, was expected to make EG look good. And EG was rightfully ashamed of his behavior, because it was insulting to minorities as well. If you think I should apologize for having contempt for people that call other people dumb niggers just because they have no self-control, than you have been spending WAAAAAY too much time on the Internet. If we both went to a coffee shop and explained the scenario to ordinary people, and how you feel I'm being rude and should be more respectful to Orb or his apologists, I assure you -- 19 out of 20 people would think you're nuts and the last person would just be insanely depressed. I'm pretty sure you're a decent guy and I don't mean to harp on you specifically, but maaaan people in this community need a reality check. The mean-spiritedness of this post is worse than anything orb said, because where he, at worst, "lacked self control," you are pointedly stereotyping an entire group of people on false pretenses. get out.
You're right. I believe people that call other people niggers in fit or rage because they are losing in a videogame are bitchy nerds.
YOU DISAGREE? I'd love to hear you argue otherwise. All you've implied is that I'm mean and judgemental. How am I wrong?
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On March 13 2012 23:50 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:44 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 14:23 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 11:16 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:42 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 08:34 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself.
The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present.
Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such. Millions? Really? Maybe a couple million self-entitled, bitchy little nerds and knuckleheads -- in a continent with over 500 million people. Explicitly talking down to people you accuse of implicitly talking down to a minority isn't exactly making you look good. I don't need to look good. And I'm not ashamed of talking down to nerds. Orb, at minimum, was expected to make EG look good. And EG was rightfully ashamed of his behavior, because it was insulting to minorities as well. If you think I should apologize for having contempt for people that call other people dumb niggers just because they have no self-control, than you have been spending WAAAAAY too much time on the Internet. If we both went to a coffee shop and explained the scenario to ordinary people, and how you feel I'm being rude and should be more respectful to Orb or his apologists, I assure you -- 19 out of 20 people would think you're nuts and the last person would just be insanely depressed. I'm pretty sure you're a decent guy and I don't mean to harp on you specifically, but maaaan people in this community need a reality check. The mean-spiritedness of this post is worse than anything orb said, because where he, at worst, "lacked self control," you are pointedly stereotyping an entire group of people on false pretenses. get out. You're right. I believe people that call other people niggers in fit or rage because they are losing in a videogame are bitchy nerds.YOU DISAGREE? I'd love to her you argue otherwise. All you've implied is that I'm mean and judgemental. How am I wrong?
I don't really care what you believe. Your point is just silly. People the world over use the word "nigger" but you've decided to single out a group (that, paradoxically, you're probably part of, given that you post on these forums) and attribute their alleged immorality to "nerdiness." If you don't see how that's hypocritical, all hope is lost for you.
But regardless, if you want to call them bitchy nerds, fine. I prefer to think of them as people who are mad. The fact that you want to treat saying the word 'nigger' when angry as having the same gravity as committing a felony when angry is rather ridiculous.
I'm also extremely annoyed by this deluded self-superiority you're parading around. "People in this community need a reality check" ? And who are you, exactly?
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sorry, misread something. please delete.
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Man if Orb got the boot for this old ladder rage, shouldn't Artosis be hung or something? He was the rage king in sc1...funny how nobody goes after that, double standard imo.
Edit: Why is Idra still on EG if rage comments are bars for termination? lol
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On March 14 2012 00:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:50 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 23:44 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 14:23 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 11:16 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:42 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 08:34 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad.
And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster.
In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended.
1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such. Millions? Really? Maybe a couple million self-entitled, bitchy little nerds and knuckleheads -- in a continent with over 500 million people. Explicitly talking down to people you accuse of implicitly talking down to a minority isn't exactly making you look good. I don't need to look good. And I'm not ashamed of talking down to nerds. Orb, at minimum, was expected to make EG look good. And EG was rightfully ashamed of his behavior, because it was insulting to minorities as well. If you think I should apologize for having contempt for people that call other people dumb niggers just because they have no self-control, than you have been spending WAAAAAY too much time on the Internet. If we both went to a coffee shop and explained the scenario to ordinary people, and how you feel I'm being rude and should be more respectful to Orb or his apologists, I assure you -- 19 out of 20 people would think you're nuts and the last person would just be insanely depressed. I'm pretty sure you're a decent guy and I don't mean to harp on you specifically, but maaaan people in this community need a reality check. The mean-spiritedness of this post is worse than anything orb said, because where he, at worst, "lacked self control," you are pointedly stereotyping an entire group of people on false pretenses. get out. You're right. I believe people that call other people niggers in fit or rage because they are losing in a videogame are bitchy nerds.YOU DISAGREE? I'd love to her you argue otherwise. All you've implied is that I'm mean and judgemental. How am I wrong? I don't really care what you believe. Your point is just silly. People the world over use the word "nigger" but you've decided to single out a group (that, paradoxically, you're probably part of, given that you post on these forums) and attribute their alleged immorality to "nerdiness." If you don't see how that's hypocritical, all hope is lost for you. But regardless, if you want to call them bitchy nerds, fine. I prefer to think of them as people who are mad. The fact that you want to treat saying the word 'nigger' when angry as having the same gravity as committing a felony when angry is rather ridiculous. I'm also extremely annoyed by this deluded self-superiority you're parading around. "People in this community need a reality check" ? And who are you, exactly?
But wait a minute -- the word "nerd" isn't necessarily offensive. I'm personally proud to be a nerd. I've never been a bitch about it the way Orb obviously has, but I am pretty nerdy.
It's not my fault that that you find the word "nerd" offensive. Isn't that what you and others on this board have been arguing all along?
Checkmate, my friend and fellow hypocrite. 
Words matter and behavior matters.
PS: Never compared calling someone a nigger to committing a felony. That's all in your head.
PPS: I'm Reality, bro. Seriously -- try to explain Orb's behaviour to someone at work, your girlfriend, a Black person, or anyone outside of this community. Alex wasn't interested in doing it.
I spoke to my wife about it though. I'm in an interracial marriage, and she's a 5th generation Canadian -- as White as white gets. She noticed I was spending waaay too much time on the message boards, so I explained this whole Orb and EG situation I was obsessed with, and how people where defending this guy.
She doesn't know much about Starcraft, other than it's people pretending to be aliens that fight each other.
"Wait, how did he call someone a nigger? Can people hear each other?"
"No, there's chat in the game. You can type to each other."
She was appalled. "Wow, so he had to actually think about what he was going to say and type it out? That's even WORSE."
And I just laughed, because that didn't even occur to me. She was right!
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On March 13 2012 12:40 Spieltor wrote:
but noone cares about destiny and he has the charisma to pull off the "im joking/being sarcastic/friendly insults" guys, and he does it so well that everyone just goes "meh".
He also has the aspect of being correct about language in the first place.
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On March 14 2012 01:34 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 12:40 Spieltor wrote:
but noone cares about destiny and he has the charisma to pull off the "im joking/being sarcastic/friendly insults" guys, and he does it so well that everyone just goes "meh". He also has the aspect of being correct about language in the first place.
People always bring up Destiny ... but honestly I've never heard him use the word nigger in a slanderous way. Can anyone point to an instance where he inferred that Black people were inferior with the word? Honest question.
Nvm: just saw the screenshot. That's disappointing. He's only limiting his own potential/opportunities.
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On March 14 2012 00:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:50 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 23:44 Shiori wrote:
The mean-spiritedness of this post is worse than anything orb said, because where he, at worst, "lacked self control," you are pointedly stereotyping an entire group of people on false pretenses.
get out.
You're right. I believe people that call other people niggers in fit or rage because they are losing in a videogame are bitchy nerds.YOU DISAGREE? I'd love to her you argue otherwise. All you've implied is that I'm mean and judgemental. How am I wrong? I don't really care what you believe. Your point is just silly. People the world over use the word "nigger" but you've decided to single out a group (that, paradoxically, you're probably part of, given that you post on these forums) and attribute their alleged immorality to "nerdiness." If you don't see how that's hypocritical, all hope is lost for you. But regardless, if you want to call them bitchy nerds, fine. I prefer to think of them as people who are mad. The fact that you want to treat saying the word 'nigger' when angry as having the same gravity as committing a felony when angry is rather ridiculous. I'm also extremely annoyed by this deluded self-superiority you're parading around. "People in this community need a reality check" ? And who are you, exactly?
No, it is not silly. You imply that this community is okay with insulting people by using racist slurs and that therefore Defacer "paradoxically" is insulting "us all".
A lot of people here have clearly stated that they are not okay with this, this community is clearly divided over this issue (which is kinda sad)! Please don't tell me or someone else that I'm (as I am part of this community) okay with this!
Actually, to see what stance this community has on that regard, why don't you go and start posting here like you seem to think is okay (as "people all over the world use" racial slurs to lovingly address each other) and see what happens! Do this in addition to what Defacer said, go out and try to argue with other people that it is actually okay to use a racial slur if you just want to randomly insult someone. Results might make you want to quit living on this planet or rethink who you actually are, exactly.
The rest of your post makes no sense, Defacer never said it's a felony, because if it would be Orb would have lost more than his job.
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On March 13 2012 23:50 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:44 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 14:23 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 11:16 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:42 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 08:34 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself.
The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present.
Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such. Millions? Really? Maybe a couple million self-entitled, bitchy little nerds and knuckleheads -- in a continent with over 500 million people. Explicitly talking down to people you accuse of implicitly talking down to a minority isn't exactly making you look good. I don't need to look good. And I'm not ashamed of talking down to nerds. Orb, at minimum, was expected to make EG look good. And EG was rightfully ashamed of his behavior, because it was insulting to minorities as well. If you think I should apologize for having contempt for people that call other people dumb niggers just because they have no self-control, than you have been spending WAAAAAY too much time on the Internet. If we both went to a coffee shop and explained the scenario to ordinary people, and how you feel I'm being rude and should be more respectful to Orb or his apologists, I assure you -- 19 out of 20 people would think you're nuts and the last person would just be insanely depressed. I'm pretty sure you're a decent guy and I don't mean to harp on you specifically, but maaaan people in this community need a reality check. The mean-spiritedness of this post is worse than anything orb said, because where he, at worst, "lacked self control," you are pointedly stereotyping an entire group of people on false pretenses. get out. You're right. I believe people that call other people niggers in fit or rage because they are losing in a videogame are bitchy nerds.YOU DISAGREE? I'd love to hear you argue otherwise. All you've implied is that I'm mean and judgemental. How am I wrong?
You're not wrong. Here's what you're doing wrong though:
You're trying to convince people that you're right. Which ultimately would help them in their lives. Why do you want to help these people that obviously disagree with you? Let them be ignorant.
Only try to convince people worth convincing. Otherwise you're wasting valuable time
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On March 14 2012 01:07 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 00:07 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 23:50 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 23:44 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 14:23 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 11:16 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:42 Defacer wrote:On March 13 2012 08:34 Shiori wrote:On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot.
2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot?
He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air.
It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher.
Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such. Millions? Really? Maybe a couple million self-entitled, bitchy little nerds and knuckleheads -- in a continent with over 500 million people. Explicitly talking down to people you accuse of implicitly talking down to a minority isn't exactly making you look good. I don't need to look good. And I'm not ashamed of talking down to nerds. Orb, at minimum, was expected to make EG look good. And EG was rightfully ashamed of his behavior, because it was insulting to minorities as well. If you think I should apologize for having contempt for people that call other people dumb niggers just because they have no self-control, than you have been spending WAAAAAY too much time on the Internet. If we both went to a coffee shop and explained the scenario to ordinary people, and how you feel I'm being rude and should be more respectful to Orb or his apologists, I assure you -- 19 out of 20 people would think you're nuts and the last person would just be insanely depressed. I'm pretty sure you're a decent guy and I don't mean to harp on you specifically, but maaaan people in this community need a reality check. The mean-spiritedness of this post is worse than anything orb said, because where he, at worst, "lacked self control," you are pointedly stereotyping an entire group of people on false pretenses. get out. You're right. I believe people that call other people niggers in fit or rage because they are losing in a videogame are bitchy nerds.YOU DISAGREE? I'd love to her you argue otherwise. All you've implied is that I'm mean and judgemental. How am I wrong? I don't really care what you believe. Your point is just silly. People the world over use the word "nigger" but you've decided to single out a group (that, paradoxically, you're probably part of, given that you post on these forums) and attribute their alleged immorality to "nerdiness." If you don't see how that's hypocritical, all hope is lost for you. But regardless, if you want to call them bitchy nerds, fine. I prefer to think of them as people who are mad. The fact that you want to treat saying the word 'nigger' when angry as having the same gravity as committing a felony when angry is rather ridiculous. I'm also extremely annoyed by this deluded self-superiority you're parading around. "People in this community need a reality check" ? And who are you, exactly? But wait a minute -- the word "nerd" isn't necessarily offensive. I'm personally proud to be a nerd. I've never been a bitch about it the way Orb obviously has, but I am pretty nerdy. It's not my fault that that you find the word "nerd" offensive. Isn't that what you and others on this board have been arguing all along? Checkmate, my friend and fellow hypocrite. Words matter and behavior matters. PS: Never compared calling someone a nigger to committing a felony. That's all in your head. PPS: I'm Reality, bro. Seriously -- try to explain Orb's behaviour to someone at work, your girlfriend, a Black person, or anyone outside of this community. Alex wasn't interested in doing it. I spoke to my wife about it though. I'm in an interracial marriage, and she's a 5th generation Canadian -- as White as white gets. She noticed I was spending waaay too much time on the message boards, so I explained this whole Orb and EG situation I was obsessed with, and how people where defending this guy. She doesn't know much about Starcraft, other than it's people pretending to be aliens that fight each other. "Wait, how did he call someone a nigger? Can people hear each other?" "No, there's chat in the game. You can type to each other." She was appalled. "Wow, so he had to actually think about what he was going to say and type it out? That's even WORSE." And I just laughed, because that didn't even occur to me. She was right!
Actually, the people I've spoken to about this are completely split about what the proper course of action is. The plural of anecdote is not data.
You also don't seem to know what an analogy is, so I'll remember never to compare anything that isn't completely obvious for the future.
To your final point about me being a hypocrite: no. You see, if you were to walk up to a black person and say "you're a [nigger]" it's pretty clear what the context is, and I'd agree with you that such phrasing is pretty clearly racist and bad. Similarly, when you categorize people supporting contextual understanding of the word "nigger" as "bitchy nerds" you've made a direct stereotype of this community given that your words are directed at nerds. There's nothing inherently derogatory about the word nerd, mind you, but your repeated appeal to this basement dweller image (too much time on the internet, blah blah) nonsense makes it clear that you're attacking what some might call "nerd culture." This is in no way the same as getting mad and using the phrase "bitchy nerd" as a generic insult (even if it were sufficiently popular in common parlance to be used as such).
I take no offense to the word 'nerd', and I'm not really sure how you got that from my post. I take offense to your condescending argument and sense of moral superiority over someone who, need I remind you, did nothing more than say the word 'nigger' when he was angry. But the fact that you can't see the difference between using nerd in a very clearly, level-headed manner to express your dislike of the people to which is clearly refers and generically using the word to express your anger at a particular person leads me to believe you have essentially no idea what you're talking about.
Alex came across as a pompous pseudo-intellectual if you ask me (much like he usually does).
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EPT
