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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 13 2012 03:24 risk.nuke wrote:
the N-word (I wanted to write the word but I'll try to be polticial correct despite how much it disgusts me to be this fake) stopped beeing offensive when the people under said category made it their own and started calling their buddies by it. When you attempt to judge if a word is too offensive or not the skincolor of the person saying it should not be factor. And that is what you have with the N-word debate. If you want proof go watch movies and wait for some funny-speedtalking black guy to come around and start throwing it around. It's all comedy and generaly a caucasian audience finds it funny and laughs.
Words meaning change and the N-word no longer means what it used to mean. I don't care if you try to throw an argument on how repulsive it's history has been. A words meaning is what we say it is, what we teach our children it is. To me a word is only as offensive as the person saying it meant it to be. If the reciver takes it poorly you'll just have to explain that you didn't mean it offensivly.
Going into real life, as a joke or not. Black people can say it, Caucasian people can't. It's clearly hypocrisy and if you accept this truth you actually fight for racism in the long run.
If a caucasian person utters the N-word, should he or she be deathstared at, distanced from or shunned for the racist bastard he or she clearly isn't?
I understand EG's decision but I am so hugely dissapointed in the organisation. That they choose this path instead of holding Orb's back on this and ride it out together. Throw in racism somewhere and everyone is so fucking quick to distance themselves. The fear of beeing associated with racism. In our current time it feel's like we're in a state of transsision. I'm really afraid it's going to take as long as a few more decades untill the majority of people will be able to look at these situations intelligently.
First off, I don't disagree with most of what you said. The word CAN be used in non offensive ways, such as in training day when denzel affectionately refers to everyone as "my nigga", but that does not mean that the word has no offensive connotations.
The way Orb used the word was meant to be offensive, I'm fairly certain he said that it's one of the few words you can use on the internet that still solicits a reaction from people. If orb had used the word as a friendly greeting or as a joke there wouldn't have been a huge deal made about it. But what he did was call someone a racist term because he thought it would make them angry, or upset.
He has stated that he is not racist but propagating racist terms in a racist manner is pretty much as racist as you can get without becoming a white supremacist. He needed to be fired for what he said, this shit would have never blown over, especially if more remarks came to light, and EG would be put into a worse position for it. He made an extremely stupid mistake, but he has to realize that as a personality in the Starcraft scene he represents the entire community and most of us don't want to be seen as being crude and racist. It might be a blow to the community that we lost a pretty good caster but the only person to blame for that in this situation is Orb.
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On March 13 2012 03:46 NeO)DarK wrote:
I'm dissapointed with EG's decision, especially in a case of a retroactive decision. Everyone has made mistakes and Orb is being made an example of. I bet the majority of posters on TL, at some point, have used profaine words. An academic perspective will only create a biased decision; to say otherwise proves you are not an academic. We are all suspect to bias in the field of academia.
I will e-mail sponsors with my complaints. If decisions can be retroactive, so can complaints.
So you will e-mail EG's sponsors and complain "I am very upset that the team you sponsor fired a guy for calling people "stupid niggers" and lying about it, then calling everyone calling him out on it "slanderous retards" and then lying to his employers I demand you not sponsor this anti racist team anymore!" ?
And do you realize that the reason orb got fired is because overzealous people contacted the sponsors in the first place? But hey go right ahead, contact sponsors, let them know that e-sports isn't worth investing into because of people like you and the people on Reddit who will complain to them about everything. But also realize how good of a job EG does plugging their sponsors and creating exposure for them, and that if their sponsors start to get annoyed and pull out of esports because of people like you, EG will be the last team to lose their sponsorship. You will hurt the rest of esports first before you will really hurt EG.
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On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended.
1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot.
2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot?
He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air.
It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher.
Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist.
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On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist.
A.l.r.i.g.h.t.!.
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On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist.
No background checks necessary. Just don't use the words in public.
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On March 13 2012 05:23 bellaisa wrote:
who really cares?
This thread is 175 pages and growing.
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Very nice display of intelligence and understanding great post
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On March 13 2012 05:45 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. No background checks necessary. Just don't use the words in public.
Hate to state the obvious, but when you stream what you do on personal time it is no longer personal time. It's public time.
I'm sure Orb jerks off, too. But if he streamed or published VODs of him jerking off ....
I think I just threw up a little.
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On March 13 2012 05:45 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. No background checks necessary. Just don't use the words in public.
what we live in a facist country now? as far as i know there is a first amendment that protects free speech whether you like it or not.
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On March 13 2012 08:12 MaGiarr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 05:45 willoc wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. No background checks necessary. Just don't use the words in public. what we live in a facist country now? as far as i know there is a first amendment that protects free speech whether you like it or not.
And companies will always reserve the right to fire you for any reason, at any time. If the feds had gone after Orb for saying nigger on his stream, you would have a point.
EG doesn't want to be associated with someone who said nigger once on a public stream. That's more than enough cause for termination, even if you don't agree with them (I don't).
Or the lying would be an even better reason for termination. But the point is they don't need a reason.
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On March 13 2012 06:35 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:This thread is 175 pages and growing.
Yeah, Of people who just need to get the N-Word out of their system
175 Pages, 90% of them have the N-word on every post.
Forget Orb.. I'm shocked this thread hasn't been closed yet.
Makes it seem like its okay to post the N-word as much as you want as long as you mention orb doing it as well.
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On March 13 2012 08:12 MaGiarr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 05:45 willoc wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. No background checks necessary. Just don't use the words in public. what we live in a facist country now? as far as i know there is a first amendment that protects free speech whether you like it or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions
The First Amendment does not protect all kinds of speech.
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On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist.
See, here is the thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand, and Orb probably didn't even think about.
What he was trying to say was "You are trash" except he used the word 'n-'. This implies that 'n-' has the same value as 'trash'. or shit. or whatever curse word you want to throw in there.
I've seen bogans call a guy a 'woman' as an insult. This implies that women are somehow so inferior to men that to be called one is an insult. Think about what that says about the guy who said it.
Believe it or not, Orb subconsciously considers 'n-' to be inferior, though it's probably not even his fault. He is a product of the society he lives in. Look at the studies, even blacks consider themselves to be inferior in america on a subconscious level.
Have a listen to http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2009/jan/27/the-obama-effect-perhaps/ and you'll see what I'm referring to.
Ultimately the words you use matter. They matter a lot more than people think. Don't call people 'faggots', don't call people 'niggers' and don't say you 'raped' that guy on the ladder.
You don't know what you're saying and if you stop and think about it, it's horrible. You don't want to be a horrible person do you?
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On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist.
Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? Here's where I stand, its not.
Say you hit your knee on a bench in a busy park and you're pissed. You could say "fucking stupid bench" out loud. Would you say "fucking nigger bench"? Highly doubt it.
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On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? Here's where I stand, its not. Say you hit your knee on a bench in a busy park and you're pissed. You could say "fucking stupid bench" out loud. Would you say "fucking nigger bench"? Highly doubt it.
No, but if he's walking the park and someone punches him in the face he might use the n-word instead of "fucking stupid". Bench is a object not a person. Altho, I disagree with what orb said, I also tend to argee that he was using it as a "interchangable insult". I hope he learns to think about the languages that he uses now...
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On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult?
At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such.
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On March 13 2012 08:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? At exactly the same moment millions of people started using it as such.
Millions? Really? Maybe a couple million self-entitled, bitchy little nerds and knuckleheads -- in a continent with over 500 million people.
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On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:
Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult?
Not sure what rosy and picket-fenced area you live in, but my area of Canada isn't so naive. It's been interchangeable for quite some time now, to people that are perfectly normal and not racist.
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On March 13 2012 08:33 BigBirdy90 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:28 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2012 05:35 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 14:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:19 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:11 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 11:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 12 2012 11:04 Zambrah wrote:On March 12 2012 10:57 Klondikebar wrote:
1. Wow I can't believe this thread is still going.
2. I do have one question now: Why are we so OK with raging at all? I mean, if you're an adult it seems to me like you should be able to maintain SOME level headedness when playing a video game. The stakes aren't really very high at all so it doesn't make sense to me that an adult would fly off the handle at a loss.
I don't mean we should completely punish or berate ragers by any means but when we see raging we should probably be raising an eyebrow and telling them to grow up.
And if you're raging SO hard that you let completely inappropriate words slip out then you REALLY need to rethink how you behave and you probably need to take a break and get some perspective. His punishment was way too harsh considering that this happened long before he joined EG and that he displayed perfect professionalism during periods where it would be required (and if you consider his manner on his personal stream, you would appreciate that he DOES exercise self control to be able to be as professional as he is on-air) which is what many of us are really sad about. I know I am at least. It wasn't too harsh at all. In every other line of work you can and will be fired for making racist remarks. If EG didn't fire him they would have been the exception, not the rule. And it REALLY didn't help that he lied about it. You can also get fired for lying to your employer. Methinks a lot of the people in this thread have never had a job. He said these things long before he joined EG, I don't think they ever even proved the recent one was even Orb, which makes him lying incredibly debatable. He didn't make racist remarks on the job, he never has, he has never failed to conduct himself with perfect professionalism when he casts. In the end what should have mattered was his conduct during his time under EG, and during his previous professional experiences. Orb had a history of making racist remarks and he showed a complete lack of control when he got frustrated. When that came to light, he went from being an investment to a massive liability. And Starcraft 2 was his profession. His behavior in the game is completely relevant to his job. If he had immediately apologized for what he said and admitted it was wrong and that he'd never do it again, EG might've been able to cut him a little slack. But instead he lied about it, and leveled accusations of slander and witch hunting at people. It made it very difficult for EG to defend. If I'm not mistaken, he still denies that the first allegation (and if I'm not mistaken, the only RECENT one) is himself. The fact that his non-professional past had such a massive impact on his professional one is disgusting, I don't care that it might be business standard, because it SHOULDN'T be business standard, what one does outside of the professional sphere should be left mostly out of the equation, it disappoints me that people expect every StarCraft personality to be a Paragon of Ultimate Virtue through the entirety of their existence from birth to present. Their action WAS harsh, suspension would have been a much fairer punishment (a possibly unnecessary punishment) what they did was due almost entirely to community backlash, and that tends to make me ashamed of a part of this community that would so feverishly attempt to slaughter a young man's career over something that in all honesty, should BARELY MATTER. See, here's why I don't think that you've had a career job. I actually work in HR and racism/bigotry is a HUGE no-no. Like, instant termination. And you can bet your ass that we'd not hire someone if we found out they had the nasty habit of making racial slurs when they got mad. And as a caster your image is important. If, in the past you had a penchant for bigotry, that's going to tarnish your image and you will make a bad caster. In EVERY SINGLE JOB being a bigot will have an impact on your professional life. This is precisely why the internet is so completely backwards and mind boggling. In every other field if you let those kinds of words slip you're instantly finished. But for some reason, on the internet, not only are they not seen as serious...they're actually defended. 1. Orb is not a bigot. The way he used the words was entirely interchangeable with tons of other insults/swear words. He didn't even have any way of knowing what race his opponent was, he is not racist, he is not a bigot. 2. So you guys really go and do the most obstinately thorough background check possible to find any instances of someone using words like nigger or faggot? He did. not. and. has. not. used. these. words. on. air. It is not a 'nasty habit,' he has proved ENTIRELY reliable to remain professional and appropriate during casting. I find is deplorable that people would intertwine people's professional and personal lives to such a degree, its sickening, something he said so far in the past and during his personal time should not have had the impact it did, that this might be common business practice sickens me farher. Orb. is. not. a. bigot. Nor a racist. Interchangable insult? Where is this logic coming from? Since when did the N-word become an all-purpose insult? Here's where I stand, its not. Say you hit your knee on a bench in a busy park and you're pissed. You could say "fucking stupid bench" out loud. Would you say "fucking nigger bench"? Highly doubt it. No, but if he's walking the park and someone punches him in the face he might use the n-word instead of "fucking stupid". Bench is a object not a person. Altho, I disagree with what orb said, I also tend to argee that he was using it as a "interchangable insult". I hope he learns to think about the languages that he uses now...
So you would call someone a fucking nigger in public for punching you? Woo boy. Good luck with your life.
Well a bench cant be stupid either since it doesnt have a brain. It's an object, not a person. You're okay with calling an object stupid but not nigger because its an object. You just rationalizing now. And proving furthermore that n-word is not as interchangable as you claim.
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