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so i was browsing threw the idra qq about hotels for IEM thread and got to start thinking about whole starcraft2 future.
warning huge wall of text inc
edit: this post is by any means NOT anti-idra, he just made me start thinking about the comparison between esports right now and other popular real sports
so first of all lets divide sports into 2 generall categorys:
1: superstar sports with absurd amounts of money spend for tbh everything like football, American football, tennis, motorsports (especially formula one) ...
amount of viewers: millions all around the world
earnings: huge, for the teams, top players etc.
2. the smaller sports like all the olympic disciplines, cycling, wintersports ...
in these sports the earnings are way lower compared to the ones gotten in the first category, but when you are successfull and get good sponsors the amount of money you can make is still huge for normal people.I just read that magdalena neuner (german biathlon star) earned 1 million euro in on of her last seasons. I know biathlon is one of the more popular sports at least in europe, but there are a lot of athlets who earn a lot less.
summary on biathlon example:
viewer count: depends on the sport but biathlon can get around 100k viewers only at the racetrack not counting tv viewers ...
earnings: worldcup win biathlon 10k
and then we have starcraft 2: achieving 50k viewers for the big events (often times less, sometimes more) and compared to that HUGE prize pools 20k for asus rog, 15 for tsl, and around 50k for gsl (dunno how many viewers gsl has tho). Then there are also all these little online cups, showmatches and and and. All together the amount of money you can get threw starcraft 2 wins is very high compared to the amount of viewers starcraft gains.
and now we have this discussion about how to treat players! Idra twittert that he has no bathroom and toilet in his room, so he might stay in a hostel. some say you cant do that you have to treat your players well, others say f**k you idra just stop complaining.
but lets compare it to the other 2 big sports categorys, since starcraft wants to be seen as sports:
category 1: luxury hotels, best food etc.
but seriously, category 1 is absurd and nobody should really care about all the money that is blown here!
category 2: low category hotels and hostels (e.g. during tour de france the teams need to stay at hostels sometimes)
starcraft2: idra complaining about spending his nights in a hostell
viewer count: starcraft 2 << category 2 sports
so where are we heading?
do we try to go to for category 1 standards, allthough the viewer count doesnt fit that at all and the project esports will fail in the near future? Or are the players going to accept that they are little fish in the deep sea of sportsmen (in which they want to be seen in)
/discuss
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Going to get over run by LoL and other shitty games if we don't step it up a notch.
Thats all that should matter!
User was warned for this post
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On March 06 2012 01:26 Jellomomello wrote:
Going to get over run by LoL and other shitty games if we don't step it up a notch.
Thats all that should matter!
sad but true since some lol players streams like oddone dyrus etc. are achieving higher viewer coutns than some big starcraft 2 events, but that isnt really my point i was heading to =)
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I think nobody knows how big Starcraft 2 will be, will it be on television more? Will there be more people that can make a living off off Starcraft 2?
I think Idra his complaints are not helping the growth of Starcraft, maybe people will dislike IEM for this and will make them lose viewers, and the more viewers, the better it is for Starcraft. And as Jellomomello said, I don't want to call the games shitty, but other games like LoL might overrun Starcraft 2. I think we should try to accelerate the growth of Starcraft (don't ask me how!), but also Blizzard. I think they really need to implement LAN, Apollo knows why! Too many tournaments are instable just because of the fact that there's no LAN. And also, as we see Riot Games (makers of League of Legends) do a lot is to promote almost all the LoL tourneys, every time there is a LoL tourney going, you see it everywhere if you start up LoL. Blizzard just sometimes do it, I think they did it with MLG, but not that much...
<3
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On March 06 2012 01:31 Fetoff wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 01:26 Jellomomello wrote:
Going to get over run by LoL and other shitty games if we don't step it up a notch.
Thats all that should matter! sad but true since some lol players streams like oddone dyrus etc. are achieving higher viewer coutns than some big starcraft 2 events, but that isnt really my point i was heading to =)
But it's a very relevant fact still, LoL (And compared to BW, SC2 as well) is a prime example of videogames becoming easier and easier while still, for some arbitrary reason, being a competitively viable game with big cash prizes and "huge" crowds, with the way videogames are constantly becoming easier and more simplistic and casual, even SC2 might get overrun.
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i like to compare esports to dart (except dart is already on TV). afaik it had a huge boom at one time. but it still exists and alots of people are passionate about it. if you watch some youtube videos (search for phil taylor) you will see similar amounts of people having the same amount of passion about something that seems somewhat stupid to an outsider.
thing is about starcraft compared to sports is that it has not a huge tradition and by this i mean it can change anytime. addons etc can ruin the hole game instantly but will never pay a player a ferrari on top of a million or some crazy stuff.
unless real major big compaines come in and throw a stupid amount of money at everyone or bill gates starts to play sc2 it will be.. just like darts.
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well sc2 has an insane amout of tournaments, daily and big ones, sometimes i think it is a bit oversaturated at times.
But to be fair SotG all the players said that it is nice to have all the expenses paid and if PPV can do that for them that is ok and then they compared MLG and stuff to NBA.
I dont know does the NBA pay the expenses the Pro teams have when they travel ?
At least in germany when you do sport not the tournament organizers pay for the travel, the teams do. So i dont see why to make a WinterArena PPV without a crowd...... and then have a prize pool of 76000$ just imagine winter arena online tourney .... with all the $$ stuck into flying in players and paying for hotels in NYC (i guess NYC is quite expensive). I mean 32 players, quite a few koreans and i dont know how expensive flights within the US are but that at least 32k $ for the flights and maybe 16k $ for the hotels, and then there is still office floor that they rented. i guess they could have easily doubled the prize money ..... when it is an online tourney with basicly the same feeling to it.
and btw the newer games are so easy ... CS is pretty easy too ....
well you could make MLG Pro Circut where you have to make 1 Pushup before you do 1 click etc ...., i wouldnt watch that...
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On March 06 2012 01:38 FlamingForce wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 01:31 Fetoff wrote:On March 06 2012 01:26 Jellomomello wrote:
Going to get over run by LoL and other shitty games if we don't step it up a notch.
Thats all that should matter! sad but true since some lol players streams like oddone dyrus etc. are achieving higher viewer coutns than some big starcraft 2 events, but that isnt really my point i was heading to =) But it's a very relevant fact still, LoL (And compared to BW, SC2 as well) is a prime example of videogames becoming easier and easier while still, for some arbitrary reason, being a competitively viable game with big cash prizes and "huge" crowds, with the way videogames are constantly becoming easier and more simplistic and casual, even SC2 might get overrun.
i think youare right with the fact that lol is in general more easy than starcraft 2, but the poiint that makes a game entertaining to watch is not the overall skill required to play but more the skillcap you can reach, maybe your game can be the hardest to play on earth, but it will still be booring when the games it creates are booring.
so the true beauty of lol is the teamplay and all the tactics that are evolving in it, and of course some neat little graphic effects for the viewers ;-)
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I feel that by putting the players on a high pedestal as far as accomodations, we'll increase the amount of players who want to "Live the Life" thus growing the competitive scene. it worked with poker really well... they're were between 20 and 30 overnight stars during the poker boom back in 2001-2005.
most people want to get into competitive sports for the fame and fortune. why would someone want to try to go pro just to drive a late model hyundai and live in an apartment with 6 other guys?
a little romantizing would help the whole scene move forward imo. the hardest part would be to finance it.
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On March 06 2012 01:46 djukger wrote:
well sc2 has an insane amout of tournaments, daily and big ones, sometimes i think it is a bit oversaturated at times.
[...]
does it? how can u compare this to tournaments in other sports (not esports) ?
just because its all listed in a very very small 250pixel width space on teamliquid it does not mean its alot. does anyone know how much dart or snooker or yougetmypoint tournaments are held every day?!
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Russian Federation117 Posts
Good points in the OP.
Actually if we judge Starcraft 2 in itself by the amount of viewers it's a very small sport, not even close to the Olympic ones you mentioned in the category #2.
That said, the eSport as a WHOLE has an incredibly high potential to grow. Just look at the LoL live stream numbers at major tournaments, they easily hit 200K which is HUGE!
I think what happens here is that we shouldn't judge eSports separetly, by games. We should view it as one entity, not dependant on how many viewers one game or another has. It's a big pie with 2-3 games (just like Olympics with multiple sports disciplines).
If we combine Counter-Strike, LoL and Starcraft 2 (disciplines at IEM World Championship) we could easilly speak about 350K viewers total at peak times and that's already something to take into consideration.
I think that's why we have such a significant prize pools across the board - sponsors look at the whole pie, not just to 1 game. And they see the potential to grow,
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autosurrounds, smart fire, smart cast, infinite control groups and 1dimensional maps that make deathball 1a-move play viable and dont encourage/reward multitasking, high apm play, shit on this game as an esport, and community makes it worse by raging whenever something new pops up, effectively blocking it and stagnating the game
skill celeing is kinda low (compared to other esports - quake, dota, bw) and relatively easy to catch up for low tier progamers/high tier mass ladder players, that at some point in the future the top will be so volatile that there will be no way to "sustain" superstar/legend status for a longer time period
you compare it to football and american football, but even there you have people that showcase crazy skill... and then there's the rest, that cant play on the same level. You only have that to some degree in sc2, and it's slowly disappearing. Sc2 was created as a mass game, and masses get annoyed if something is too difficult. Such a game cant be an esport, sorry
/flameon /rageon /carryon /bailin
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On March 06 2012 02:21 necrimanci wrote:
autosurrounds, smart fire, smart cast, infinite control groups and 1dimensional maps that make deathball 1a-move play viable and dont encourage/reward multitasking, high apm play, shit on this game as an esport, and community makes it worse by raging whenever something new pops up, effectively blocking it and stagnating the game
skill celeing is kinda low (compared to other esports - quake, dota, bw) and relatively easy to catch up for low tier progamers/high tier mass ladder players, that at some point in the future the top will be so volatile that there will be no way to "sustain" superstar/legend status for a longer time period
you compare it to football and american football, but even there you have people that showcase crazy skill... and then there's the rest, that cant play on the same level. You only have that to some degree in sc2, and it's slowly disappearing. Sc2 was created as a mass game, and masses get annoyed if something is too difficult. Such a game cant be an esport, sorry
/flameon /rageon /carryon /bailin
What's your highest or current Starcraft 2 rank if I may ask? More often then not people who make statements like this haven't even played the game on a competitive level.
But then again those people hear Idra say "the game is easy and shit" and that's all it takes...
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On March 06 2012 01:26 Jellomomello wrote:
Going to get over run by LoL and other shitty games if we don't step it up a notch.
Thats all that should matter!
LoL will die off soon because its not spectator friendly, only reason its so big now is because the busineses that makes the gaming is the one running all of the big tournys...
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I live in the midwest U. S. I don't know what the mindset problem is but when I try to get my friends to check out Sc2 esports its like I'm telling them to pour acid on their face because it's so absurd to watch other people play video games for money. I too thought it was fairly absurd and the only reason I started watching pros was to try to get better at SC2. Now, a year later, I see it as one of my biggest hobbies and most enjoyable pastimes. I've realized, the thing that is so engaging is watching the players rise and fall, their personalities, their playstyles. I mean, why is Idra so popular? Obviously, he is good and quite consistent, but he has a personality that prevails. If somehow more of the general public can be introduced to some of these players it could bring alot more attention from people who may not even play SC2, but just like video games and smart people. Some of these guys have superstar talent along with superstar personalities. Not to mention dashing good looks (ei. HerO, Dimaga, Nada, TLO, etc.) Someone needs to produce a reality-type show. low-budget, with some caster personalities and maybe an 8 man invitational with all the players there, so it would be practically a live event. Of course it could be streamed on the net but get it to air on some cable station or something. People need to appreciate the level of intelligence these guys operate on. Not only in game but in their training for matches. I'm afraid most Americans would rather watch meat heads clobber each other than watch two nerds face off in a battle of competency and wits. But I think there is a large market out there that hasn't been tapped yet, just because there isn't much publicity outside of the Esports sector of the internet. I hope IPL 4 is a huge success because I think IGN is the best candidate to do something like this.
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I would of taken this a lot more seriously if not for the anti-Idra messages sprinkled throughout. That's one way to stunt the growth of esports; bash the players.
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To be honest I don't care about Esport. I care about Starcraft only. There's one question I wanna ask. If LoL has such a huge viewer count why all of the organizers out there seem to invest in SC2 as their first priority? Doesn't it make more sense if you will invest in the game that attract more viewer? SC2 still has like 5x times more tournaments than LoL which shouldn't happen if LoL is really better business wise.
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On March 06 2012 02:59 lavit2099 wrote:
I would of taken this a lot more seriously if not for the anti-Idra messages sprinkled throughout. That's one way to stunt the growth of esports; bash the players.
this isnt about me beeing anti idra, i like him and his personality to be honest, he just gave me a good or no let me say bad example recently to express my thoughts around =)
and i have to agree, with some comments that you need characters too grow a business, but what do we want? starcraft beeing popular, which you can achieve with this kind of reality show, or it beeing acknowledge as a sport, where you have to take the more serious route ...
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Well physical sports have HUGE name sponsors like Nike and shit. And so did BW in Korea. For example. Jin air and sk telecom all them. Sc2 just doesn't have those big ass sponsors. And blizzard (since they merged with Activision) recently has been caring more about the money (that's why there are two full prices expansions) they have the money to advertise and do huge things, but the sad sad truth is that they probably won't do shit. It's all good though, I've survived with good esports before, like before I discovered BW.
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LoL viewer rates are worthless since they practically shove streams down peoples throats, you have to look at the community you will never see something like winter arena (which was definently a Category 1 event) for LoL no way a tourny is going to be able to make enough with PPV for a LoL event
also i would say your viewer numbers are way off saying only 50k viewers, MLG pulls in the same amount of viewers as cable and hhave tons of people show up plus theres the world wide sorta thing where not everyone watchs every event live and watchs VoDs instead
jsut look at winter arena, they made enough money to completely pay for flying 32 people to NYC, putting them up at a nice hotel and feeding them for 3 full days and still pulled a profit
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EPT
