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On February 23 2012 13:28 jinixxx123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote:
I do not believe GSL AoL was PPV-only without a free stream option (maybe it was at first?), perhaps we were mistaken about it. Regardless, it does not change our policy on it, if GSL were to come out with a pay-only tournament tomorrow we would treat it the same way. gsl AOL have always only been PPV. you guys got caught with double standards and are looking pretty dumb now, and im guessing ill be banned. Whatever, somebody needs to call you guys out. Its a stupid biased move.
It might been an error or oversight for those two particular calendar listings. I was unable to find any other calendared events from AoL1 besides those two.
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On February 23 2012 13:28 aNDRoM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 13:21 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 23 2012 13:17 aNDRoM wrote:On February 23 2012 13:02 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 23 2012 12:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
I understand the viewpoint, but I do not agree with the final decision nor the way it was conducted now.
TL as always tries to be transparent but there are questions here that need to be answered. If MLG offered referral program participation and TL refused and TL offered advertising space and MLG refused, then it seems to me that it's a question of money rather than principle. Didn't MLG offer enough money through the referral program and TL wanted more for advertising? Unless we know those numbers, it's hard to take this announcement at face value.
Secondly, it seems an impossible task for MLG (or anyone) to " find a revenue model that allows them to keep running successful events." if PPV will immediately cause costs to increase and reduce their community advertising. We know that TL is the hub for all things to SC2 and not being showcased here will damage their event.
Although, I don't think TL is the cause of these problems. I can imagine that MLG did not talk to TL quite as much as they could have, nor has MLG gone to great lengths to actually pay for these services (which, to be honest, are taken for granted by many). On the other hand, the Winter Arena must be one of the most frequently mentioned topics on TL at the moment, so perhaps removing the calendar option is mostly a demonstration of attitude than an actually painful lesson being taught to MLG. Neither of these conversations (the referral program or the calendar spot) reached the point where we were negotiating prices at all. We declined to be a part of the referral program for the reasons we stated, and they did not feel we should charge anything for the calendar entry. Hot_Bid, was MLG's objection to TL charging for the calendar entry based on the fact (or assumption) that they'd pay for normal placement on the calendar? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe TL has a special sponsored section of the calendar like there is for sponsored threads. Would MLG paying have caused the creation of a special sponsored position/section of the calendar? We do not have a special sponsored section of the calendar similar to sponsored threads, but the discussions never reached the point where anyone was asking for detailed sections. We simply disagreed about the calendar listing being different for PPV vs free streams, regardless of placement. I guess my point is that highlighted placement in a sponsored section of the calendar may have changed the equation. In other words, their objection may simply be to the perception that they now had to pay for something that they previously got for free, from a certain point of view. If that foundation to their stance no longer applied, they may reconsider?
I see what you did there.
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United States33681 Posts
On February 23 2012 13:28 jinixxx123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote:
I do not believe GSL AoL was PPV-only without a free stream option (maybe it was at first?), perhaps we were mistaken about it. Regardless, it does not change our policy on it, if GSL were to come out with a pay-only tournament tomorrow we would treat it the same way. gsl AOL have always only been PPV. you guys got caught with double standards and are looking pretty dumb now, and im guessing ill be banned. Whatever, somebody needs to call you guys out. Its a stupid biased move. User was banned for this post.
martyring is my favorite ban ^_^
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I agree with this, but I'm still a bit confused on what exactly requires a sponsored thread. So MLG Winter Arena is PPV and because of that you would require them to pay for a spot on the calendar. That's reasonable considering they would be using TL as an advertising outlet for their PPV event. What I don't quite understand is why you allow them to advertise on the forums without having to pay for a sponsored thread. Aren't these pretty much the same thing with the same reasoning behind why you would charge for a thread or charge for a calendar listing? Don't these two decisions seem contradictory?
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I never thought about it until now, but I would be pretty annoyed to click one of the streams only to find out it's PPV.
Keep up the good work 
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As long as TL.net makes a PPV stream section where organizers are required to pay for their listing, this decision makes sense. Otherwise, this will be a very dangerous road to take.
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Thanks for the heads up. I agree with this decision and it's nice to know why MLG Arena won't be listed despite it being a relatively big event.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On February 23 2012 13:31 Devolved wrote:
I agree with this, but I'm still a bit confused on what exactly requires a sponsored thread. So MLG Winter Arena is PPV and because of that you would require them to pay for a spot on the calendar. That's reasonable considering they would be using TL as an advertising outlet for their PPV event. What I don't quite understand is why you allow them to advertise on the forums without having to pay for a sponsored thread. Aren't these pretty much the same thing with the same reasoning behind why you would charge for a thread or charge for a calendar listing? Don't these two decisions seem contradictory?
It is somewhat contradictory but we don't believe in charging someone for everything they do. MLG posting a thread about their PPV model and what it provides is informational, sure it advertises for MLG but it also benefits our users to know about it. In the end we are not here to erase their event from the earth, we want our users to make an informed decision about whether or not to buy it. It's not really fair to us to charge for ANY advertising, because just about any post by a tournament can be considered that.
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On February 23 2012 13:28 jinixxx123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote:
I do not believe GSL AoL was PPV-only without a free stream option (maybe it was at first?), perhaps we were mistaken about it. Regardless, it does not change our policy on it, if GSL were to come out with a pay-only tournament tomorrow we would treat it the same way. gsl AOL have always only been PPV. you guys got caught with double standards and are looking pretty dumb now, and im guessing ill be banned. Whatever, somebody needs to call you guys out. Its a stupid biased move.
If you say you'll be banned, you're gonna be banned. :-) [Edit: Yep!]
I dunno if it's a double-standard, at least not an intentional one. It seemed that there was confusion about AoL being PPV or not PPV, whereas there have been copious discussions about Winter Arena being PPV-only.
Slight Tangent: Since I live in NA, it is incredibly difficult for me to take advantage of the free stream of GSL. Unless I want to stay up in the middle of the night, which I can't do on a regular basis, with a job and kids requiring me to be conscious during the day, I essentially cannot utilize the free option for viewing GSL. So for me, GSL is PPV-only, in a sense. I don't have that big of a sense of entitlement to demand that a free option to view GSL be available to anyone in any timezone, but I do wish that they put out time-limited VODs...
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 23 2012 13:31 Devolved wrote:
I agree with this, but I'm still a bit confused on what exactly requires a sponsored thread. So MLG Winter Arena is PPV and because of that you would require them to pay for a spot on the calendar. That's reasonable considering they would be using TL as an advertising outlet for their PPV event. What I don't quite understand is why you allow them to advertise on the forums without having to pay for a sponsored thread. Aren't these pretty much the same thing with the same reasoning behind why you would charge for a thread or charge for a calendar listing? Don't these two decisions seem contradictory?
Not really. A thread about the event provides information (time, price, players, casters, maps, etc). An LR thread provides information for those with no access to the PPV. Therefore those threads have a purpose other than advertising, and is useful for most users on the site. A Calendar spot alone provides little info aside from the time it's on, and provides no information about the games, event, or anything else.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 23 2012 13:34 EG.lectR wrote:
As long as TL.net makes a PPV stream section where organizers are required to pay for their listing, this decision makes sense. Otherwise, this will be a very dangerous road to take.
If there are PPV streams listed on the calendar they will easily identifiable.
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I fully agree with this decision, and applaud TL for posting this thread explaining the rules and the reasons for those rules.
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SoCal8933 Posts
i understand the reasoning behind this and am glad that there are still people that back up what they believe in. kudos!
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I understand that you guys have rules and are strictly following it, but I disagree that an event without a free stream can't be displayed in the calendar, since some(actually all) of the users are going to benefect from it and TL is not losing anything from it.
even people who is not paying for the event wants to know when it starts, I know I do.
yes, listing something in the calendar will always get more viewers to the event, but doesn't mean it is only advertising... I just don't see it as advertising only... it's information for everyone.
not only that, but the success of such events are in pro of the entire community, scene, etc., even TL itself. and it's not like you will have advertising all over the website because of that, its just a listing in the calendar.
unless TL needs the money or wants more revenue, I'm totally fine with that, just charge for the calendar listing, but if it's not the case, then I think it is completely unnecessary.
that's my 2 cents.
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Wow I'm Impressed by TL, I didn't think they were like that. Much respect, this is the way to go.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On February 23 2012 13:31 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 13:28 jinixxx123 wrote:On February 23 2012 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote:
I do not believe GSL AoL was PPV-only without a free stream option (maybe it was at first?), perhaps we were mistaken about it. Regardless, it does not change our policy on it, if GSL were to come out with a pay-only tournament tomorrow we would treat it the same way. gsl AOL have always only been PPV. you guys got caught with double standards and are looking pretty dumb now, and im guessing ill be banned. Whatever, somebody needs to call you guys out. Its a stupid biased move. User was banned for this post. martyring is my favorite ban ^_^
lol i never understood why people do this to themselves. that half of the post was entirely unnecessary.
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TL has the best PR because they are so honest and genuine with their motives. <3
I wholeheartedly agree with TL's opinions on this issue as well.
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Hong Kong9179 Posts
On February 23 2012 13:35 aNDRoM wrote:
Slight Tangent: Since I live in NA, it is incredibly difficult for me to take advantage of the free stream of GSL. Unless I want to stay up in the middle of the night, which I can't do on a regular basis, with a job and kids requiring me to be conscious during the day, I essentially cannot utilize the free option for viewing GSL. So for me, GSL is PPV-only, in a sense. I don't have that big of a sense of entitlement to demand that a free option to view GSL be available to anyone in any timezone, but I do wish that they put out time-limited VODs...
Except by the time you articulate that GSL has functionally become pay-per-view for you, the event has passed and is already off the upcoming events calendar. During the time that it was up, however, there remained an accessible free stream option.
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This makes sense.
In all technicality I guess MLG could bitch and moan about their interview/hangout stream that will be free that they will be running. It technically is a free stream and could be considered similar to something like SOTG, or GSL's off the record. Also,
The Dr Pepper MLG Ultimate Access stream will be completely free all weekend. The first match aired on each of the four other streams, on both Friday and Saturday, will also be free to everyone.
Specifically the second part. Can't that be on TL's calendar?
TL;DR
The first match aired of the four streams on both friday and saturday will be free, should that not be on the calendar? Additionally, the MLG ultimate access stream is free all weekend, good interviews, why not on the calendar as well?
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On February 23 2012 13:31 Oiseaux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 13:28 aNDRoM wrote:On February 23 2012 13:21 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 23 2012 13:17 aNDRoM wrote:On February 23 2012 13:02 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 23 2012 12:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
I understand the viewpoint, but I do not agree with the final decision nor the way it was conducted now.
TL as always tries to be transparent but there are questions here that need to be answered. If MLG offered referral program participation and TL refused and TL offered advertising space and MLG refused, then it seems to me that it's a question of money rather than principle. Didn't MLG offer enough money through the referral program and TL wanted more for advertising? Unless we know those numbers, it's hard to take this announcement at face value.
Secondly, it seems an impossible task for MLG (or anyone) to " find a revenue model that allows them to keep running successful events." if PPV will immediately cause costs to increase and reduce their community advertising. We know that TL is the hub for all things to SC2 and not being showcased here will damage their event.
Although, I don't think TL is the cause of these problems. I can imagine that MLG did not talk to TL quite as much as they could have, nor has MLG gone to great lengths to actually pay for these services (which, to be honest, are taken for granted by many). On the other hand, the Winter Arena must be one of the most frequently mentioned topics on TL at the moment, so perhaps removing the calendar option is mostly a demonstration of attitude than an actually painful lesson being taught to MLG. Neither of these conversations (the referral program or the calendar spot) reached the point where we were negotiating prices at all. We declined to be a part of the referral program for the reasons we stated, and they did not feel we should charge anything for the calendar entry. Hot_Bid, was MLG's objection to TL charging for the calendar entry based on the fact (or assumption) that they'd pay for normal placement on the calendar? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe TL has a special sponsored section of the calendar like there is for sponsored threads. Would MLG paying have caused the creation of a special sponsored position/section of the calendar? We do not have a special sponsored section of the calendar similar to sponsored threads, but the discussions never reached the point where anyone was asking for detailed sections. We simply disagreed about the calendar listing being different for PPV vs free streams, regardless of placement. I guess my point is that highlighted placement in a sponsored section of the calendar may have changed the equation. In other words, their objection may simply be to the perception that they now had to pay for something that they previously got for free, from a certain point of view. If that foundation to their stance no longer applied, they may reconsider? I see what you did there.
LOL, busted.
BTW I did pay the $15 for the PPV this weekend ($5 off for being Gold). It burned a bit doing so, but it's about the same price as going to see a 3D movie, so I paid it...
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EPT
