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This patch just put the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to playing terran, it's just not fun anymore. We have no good T3 in any matchup but TvT (durr, its a mirror), we've got no DPS-casters and our only good and versatile unit that made ZvT fun playing just got nerfed in EVERY scenario except vs casters. Playing Terran is just so stale now, it's all about unit counter, not strategies or micro, its just army composition and it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring to play.
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On February 23 2012 09:09 Confuzzled wrote:
This patch just put the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to playing terran, it's just not fun anymore. We have no good T3 in any matchup but TvT (durr, its a mirror), we've got no DPS-casters and our only good and versatile unit that made ZvT fun playing just got nerfed in EVERY scenario except vs casters. Playing Terran is just so stale now, it's all about unit counter, not strategies or micro, its just army composition and it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring to play.
nobody's forcing you to play Terran.
just change race, then.
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On February 23 2012 09:09 Confuzzled wrote:
This patch just put the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to playing terran, it's just not fun anymore. We have no good T3 in any matchup but TvT (durr, its a mirror), we've got no DPS-casters and our only good and versatile unit that made ZvT fun playing just got nerfed in EVERY scenario except vs casters. Playing Terran is just so stale now, it's all about unit counter, not strategies or micro, its just army composition and it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring to play.
Huh? No micro? Did marine splitting vs baneling suddenly disappear? No good T3 in any matchup besides TvT? TvP late game will be the same as before... And ghosts were your only versatile unit in ZvT? Marines don't fit the category of versatile now? Terran is the most versatile race out there..
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On February 23 2012 09:19 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 09:09 Confuzzled wrote:
This patch just put the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to playing terran, it's just not fun anymore. We have no good T3 in any matchup but TvT (durr, its a mirror), we've got no DPS-casters and our only good and versatile unit that made ZvT fun playing just got nerfed in EVERY scenario except vs casters. Playing Terran is just so stale now, it's all about unit counter, not strategies or micro, its just army composition and it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring to play. Huh? No micro? Did marine splitting vs baneling suddenly disappear? No good T3 in any matchup besides TvT? TvP late game will be the same as before... And ghosts were your only versatile unit in ZvT? Marines don't fit the category of versatile now? Terran is the most versatile race out there..
That doesn't mean Terran has options against infestor/Bl into Ultra/Ling switches. You NEED Ghosts to hold the line. It's not even worth arguing. It's simply impossible to increase Marauder/Siege tank Production quickly enough without something to mitigate the damage.
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On February 23 2012 09:19 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 09:09 Confuzzled wrote:
This patch just put the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to playing terran, it's just not fun anymore. We have no good T3 in any matchup but TvT (durr, its a mirror), we've got no DPS-casters and our only good and versatile unit that made ZvT fun playing just got nerfed in EVERY scenario except vs casters. Playing Terran is just so stale now, it's all about unit counter, not strategies or micro, its just army composition and it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring to play. Huh? No micro? Did marine splitting vs baneling suddenly disappear? No good T3 in any matchup besides TvT? TvP late game will be the same as before... And ghosts were your only versatile unit in ZvT? Marines don't fit the category of versatile now? Terran is the most versatile race out there..
Snipe is useless against Zealots now, meaning midgame Ghost armies against archon+ chargelot like Thorzain use to do are now bad. It's marines and marines and more marines. I'm guessing we'll see only timing pushes for a bit, that's shitty.
A 50 damage with 50% penalty against massive would have least kept the utility against zealots workers and marine pretty much unchanged, this nerf was stupid 
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On February 23 2012 07:09 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:51 s3rp wrote:On February 23 2012 06:46 PureBalls wrote:On February 23 2012 06:43 CyDe wrote:On February 23 2012 06:26 PureBalls wrote:
All the terrans crying about late game TvP should watch the Jinro vs Tiger G1 @ EWM. Dude, you can't just say something is balanced/ imbalanced because of one game. Waaay too many variables involved. Consist evidence is what people are looking for, especially Blizzard, so the fact that you posting one game, ONE, is completely negligible. What I meant with that post, was that terran players should watch that game for inspiration. P and T enter late game on equal footing, and terran (BCs and nukes) just wrecks protoss. The game was a turtlefest until 1 player lost his cool. If Jinro would've attacked he would've been owned just the same. Lategame TvP is almost impossible to attack ( for both sides ) so the one with more expos wins if its split the one with more cool wins. Daybreak is pretty easy to split to make sure the Toss doesn't get ahead . Then you just have to sit on your ass untill the Toss is retareded enough to attack you while annoying him at the same. Great game design ... So what do you want? Do you want back and forth games, with lots of small engagements and harass? Is that it? Well, my friend, you should be complaining about the sick good and cheap terran early game, not the strong P/Z late game. Thats basically what makes the other two races turtle to survive. How is a protoss supposed to fight a back and forth and harass based early/mid game, against faster units with more DPS? If you want SC2 to be more like BW (more exciting and back and forth) then the only way to do it, is to nerf stim to shit, up marauder cost (gas) and get rid of CS, make roaches much more costly, and probably reduce spawn larva by half, as well as get rid of FFs and make WG a TC level upgrade. That should do it.
Very good list, only thing I would add to it would be nerfs to immortals, ling speed, and make fungal reduce speed instead of immobilize. Of course none of this will ever actually happen, but a man can dream right?
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On February 23 2012 09:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 09:09 Confuzzled wrote:
This patch just put the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to playing terran, it's just not fun anymore. We have no good T3 in any matchup but TvT (durr, its a mirror), we've got no DPS-casters and our only good and versatile unit that made ZvT fun playing just got nerfed in EVERY scenario except vs casters. Playing Terran is just so stale now, it's all about unit counter, not strategies or micro, its just army composition and it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring to play. nobody's forcing you to play Terran. just change race, then.
And what if like me for example you think the other races suck ass and are poorly designed to begin with ? ^^
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On February 23 2012 09:23 Gheizen64 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 09:19 goswser wrote:On February 23 2012 09:09 Confuzzled wrote:
This patch just put the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to playing terran, it's just not fun anymore. We have no good T3 in any matchup but TvT (durr, its a mirror), we've got no DPS-casters and our only good and versatile unit that made ZvT fun playing just got nerfed in EVERY scenario except vs casters. Playing Terran is just so stale now, it's all about unit counter, not strategies or micro, its just army composition and it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring to play. Huh? No micro? Did marine splitting vs baneling suddenly disappear? No good T3 in any matchup besides TvT? TvP late game will be the same as before... And ghosts were your only versatile unit in ZvT? Marines don't fit the category of versatile now? Terran is the most versatile race out there.. Snipe is useless against Zealots now, meaning midgame Ghost armies against archon+ chargelot like Thorzain use to do are now bad. It's marines and marines and more marines. I'm guessing we'll see only timing pushes for a bit, that's shitty. A 50 damage with 50% penalty against massive would have least kept the utility against zealots workers and marine pretty much unchanged, this nerf was stupid
I agree with the 50 dmg with -25 to massive. I think it would be a nice balance to snipe.
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On February 23 2012 08:55 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:50 oxxo wrote:On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations? Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me. Broodlords soft counter. Ultra extremely soft counter. Infestor, snipe was never the counter, EMP was. Muta yes sorta since pretty much everything 'counters' them. It's catching them that's the problem. T NEEDS to have some soft counters considering how poor their macro mechanic is for late game play. Blizzard seems to want to force T into making hard counter units without acknowledging the fact that T has BY FAR the worst tech switching and macro abilities in the game. That's called poor game design. Oh the irony. Soft counter ? Don't you need 6snipes to kill a broodlord ? That's 150energy.
9 snipes to kill a broodlord. That's 225 energy.
And 21 snipes to kill an ultralisk. That's 525 energy.
... and 2 snipes to kill a zergling. LOL.
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On February 23 2012 05:37 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 05:27 scypio wrote:On February 23 2012 05:15 Rainmansc wrote:
+1
No offense but can bronze-master players stop talking about balance please... The game should be enjoyable by all races on all levels. It has been almost year since we had EU Terran win a major event (Thorzain winning TSL3 in March 2011). It's been pretty much donwhill from there. Yeah, the Terrans in Korea are doing alright, but this does solve the problem at all. And when was the last time non-korean P or Z have won a tournament? As far as I can see, since the time Koreans (and those foreigners training in Korea) have began participating in foreign tournaments, no foreigner has won anything.
Errrr I can think of many... Huk (MLG), Nani (MLG), WhiteRa (IPL2), Stephano(IPL3), Idra (IEM). Oh.
I personally think the main issue will be Zerg tech switching. Those 20 vikings aren't going to do toffee against Ultras.
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On February 23 2012 09:38 SolarXPn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 09:23 Gheizen64 wrote:On February 23 2012 09:19 goswser wrote:On February 23 2012 09:09 Confuzzled wrote:
This patch just put the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to playing terran, it's just not fun anymore. We have no good T3 in any matchup but TvT (durr, its a mirror), we've got no DPS-casters and our only good and versatile unit that made ZvT fun playing just got nerfed in EVERY scenario except vs casters. Playing Terran is just so stale now, it's all about unit counter, not strategies or micro, its just army composition and it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring to play. Huh? No micro? Did marine splitting vs baneling suddenly disappear? No good T3 in any matchup besides TvT? TvP late game will be the same as before... And ghosts were your only versatile unit in ZvT? Marines don't fit the category of versatile now? Terran is the most versatile race out there.. Snipe is useless against Zealots now, meaning midgame Ghost armies against archon+ chargelot like Thorzain use to do are now bad. It's marines and marines and more marines. I'm guessing we'll see only timing pushes for a bit, that's shitty. A 50 damage with 50% penalty against massive would have least kept the utility against zealots workers and marine pretty much unchanged, this nerf was stupid I agree with the 50 dmg with -25 to massive. I think it would be a nice balance to snipe.
Snipe nerf to massive should be -10 (from 45) at absolute most. Terran lacks good lategame heavy hitters to combat Zerg T3, snipe was the only thing keeping us from getting killed by tech switches between ultras and brood lords.
Give Terran a lategame unit with the same game-changing ability as the colossus or brood lord, then the snipe nerf would be reasonable. As Terran exists now, the nerf is not. Terran is quickly becoming not worth the trouble for those of us who don't have the crazy micro/multitasking of the Koreans.
Idra stated it best on I believe it was ITG or something recently. Terran midgame is our strong point and a fair case for some kind of nerf could probably be made, but our lategame is weak and needs to be improved.
It's Zerg and Protoss that have the overpowering endgame compositions, not Terran. Nerfing our best and currently only reliable method of not getting run over by Hive tech is a horrible decision.
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The problem I see is that while there might be 50% win rates between the races that's not balance to me. Imagine if there was a race with ridiculously strong tier 1 units but everything else was terrible. Sometimes they'd win early, sometimes they wouldn't if the other player turtled up enough. But after that moment there's nowhere to go that matters. Hate to be the guy who bring up BW... haha but in BW you felt that all races had a scary end game. If every game was an hour no rush in SC2, the races aren't remotely even. I know my opinion doesn't have to be the way it should be. But I'd like it if that was more the case.
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Bahamas15897 Posts
On February 23 2012 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 08:55 Erasme wrote:On February 23 2012 06:50 oxxo wrote:On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations? Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me. Broodlords soft counter. Ultra extremely soft counter. Infestor, snipe was never the counter, EMP was. Muta yes sorta since pretty much everything 'counters' them. It's catching them that's the problem. T NEEDS to have some soft counters considering how poor their macro mechanic is for late game play. Blizzard seems to want to force T into making hard counter units without acknowledging the fact that T has BY FAR the worst tech switching and macro abilities in the game. That's called poor game design. Oh the irony. Soft counter ? Don't you need 6snipes to kill a broodlord ? That's 150energy. 9 snipes to kill a broodlord. That's 225 energy. And 21 snipes to kill an ultralisk. That's 525 energy. ... and 2 snipes to kill a zergling. LOL.
Now yes, and don't you think it's less stupid than to have an unit that can kill every single zerg's units with little risk ? Nowadays you can be overrun while you're building your army of death but 20ghosts with the new ghost trick will still kill broodlord/infestors.
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On February 23 2012 10:44 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:On February 23 2012 08:55 Erasme wrote:On February 23 2012 06:50 oxxo wrote:On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations? Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me. Broodlords soft counter. Ultra extremely soft counter. Infestor, snipe was never the counter, EMP was. Muta yes sorta since pretty much everything 'counters' them. It's catching them that's the problem. T NEEDS to have some soft counters considering how poor their macro mechanic is for late game play. Blizzard seems to want to force T into making hard counter units without acknowledging the fact that T has BY FAR the worst tech switching and macro abilities in the game. That's called poor game design. Oh the irony. Soft counter ? Don't you need 6snipes to kill a broodlord ? That's 150energy. 9 snipes to kill a broodlord. That's 225 energy. And 21 snipes to kill an ultralisk. That's 525 energy. ... and 2 snipes to kill a zergling. LOL. Now yes, and don't you think it's less stupid than to have an unit that can kill every single zerg's units with little risk ? Nowadays you can be overrun while you're building your army of death but 20ghosts with the new ghost trick will still kill broodlord/infestors.
*sigh* People STILL believe that the ghost "trick" works?
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Bahamas15897 Posts
On February 23 2012 10:47 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 10:44 Erasme wrote:On February 23 2012 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:On February 23 2012 08:55 Erasme wrote:On February 23 2012 06:50 oxxo wrote:On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations? Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me. Broodlords soft counter. Ultra extremely soft counter. Infestor, snipe was never the counter, EMP was. Muta yes sorta since pretty much everything 'counters' them. It's catching them that's the problem. T NEEDS to have some soft counters considering how poor their macro mechanic is for late game play. Blizzard seems to want to force T into making hard counter units without acknowledging the fact that T has BY FAR the worst tech switching and macro abilities in the game. That's called poor game design. Oh the irony. Soft counter ? Don't you need 6snipes to kill a broodlord ? That's 150energy. 9 snipes to kill a broodlord. That's 225 energy. And 21 snipes to kill an ultralisk. That's 525 energy. ... and 2 snipes to kill a zergling. LOL. Now yes, and don't you think it's less stupid than to have an unit that can kill every single zerg's units with little risk ? Nowadays you can be overrun while you're building your army of death but 20ghosts with the new ghost trick will still kill broodlord/infestors. *sigh* People STILL believe that the ghost "trick" works?
The one with the third mouse button has been 'fixed' ?
And even without, you'll still kill it. Won't be as easy as before tho.
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On February 23 2012 10:51 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 10:47 IMoperator wrote:On February 23 2012 10:44 Erasme wrote:On February 23 2012 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:On February 23 2012 08:55 Erasme wrote:On February 23 2012 06:50 oxxo wrote:On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations? Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me. Broodlords soft counter. Ultra extremely soft counter. Infestor, snipe was never the counter, EMP was. Muta yes sorta since pretty much everything 'counters' them. It's catching them that's the problem. T NEEDS to have some soft counters considering how poor their macro mechanic is for late game play. Blizzard seems to want to force T into making hard counter units without acknowledging the fact that T has BY FAR the worst tech switching and macro abilities in the game. That's called poor game design. Oh the irony. Soft counter ? Don't you need 6snipes to kill a broodlord ? That's 150energy. 9 snipes to kill a broodlord. That's 225 energy. And 21 snipes to kill an ultralisk. That's 525 energy. ... and 2 snipes to kill a zergling. LOL. Now yes, and don't you think it's less stupid than to have an unit that can kill every single zerg's units with little risk ? Nowadays you can be overrun while you're building your army of death but 20ghosts with the new ghost trick will still kill broodlord/infestors. *sigh* People STILL believe that the ghost "trick" works? The one with the third mouse button has been 'fixed' ? And even without, you'll still kill it. Won't be as easy as before tho.
Snipe bugs out if it is cast "too fast." SO its not like infested terran bombing where you can just pop up a million instantly. To use the scroll wheel properly you must still understand the snipe timings and have good mouse control.
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I've been playing some T v Z games with a practice partner since patch to actually see for myself what late-game T v Z feels like now.......
Late game T v Z is just HORRIBLE now. Blizzard, why you destroy the only exciting MU when it was already relatively balanced?
From now on, everytime I hear someone say "meta game"..... I'm just going to LMAO at them. Blizzard isn't allowing for a "meta game" to develop, everytime something new is utilised straight away people/retards call for a nerf/buff. Just leave the god damn game alone and give it time!
This Terran just feels as though Blizzard has just taken the biggest smelliest dump on me.
Terran may have more units then other races, but when you consider the viablity of units that can be used..... I'm sorry Terran really dosen't have that many options as the community seems to portray.
What I want to know is, does Blizzard even look at these forums or community feedback in regards to patches? Or, is it at just GSL level where a Zerg has a QQ cause he got rolled by snipe one game? (Of course a professional zerg is going to try and backup their race, anything to make MU's easier for them to win is better when theres money involved).
I wish players like MVP weren't as good as they are. I believe we would see less nerfs to Terran if this was the case.
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Bad timing, not the best changes. I think the Ghost nerf was over-done, and I think that the pheonix buff is either going to be a) useless or b) way too strong at shutting down muta play.
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I have come to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade is utterly useless in PvZ. Mutas are still way to fucking stupid.
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EPT
