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So they just went with everything like it was.
With no PTR
With a lot of pros saying it's a bad idea
With two major tournament the day after
._______.
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So this time they got GM right but the patch is all screwed up lol.
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On February 22 2012 05:46 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 05:00 shizna wrote:On February 22 2012 04:42 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects.. for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right? mules don't give you free money. they allow you to gather your minerals FASTER, but you still get the same number of minerals eventually. i don't think you realise how difficult terran would be if you didn't have scanner sweep. it's used for scouting more than detection. it's ESSENTIAL for scouting. if you think terran shouldn't 'waste' mules to scan, then you need to give terran a marine that can run at zergling speed, flying supply depots, an observer or something in order to scout. i mean you could build barracks and float them around.. but that costs almost as much as a scan and they can be killed so they're not exactly permenant..... you must not have taken basic economics. money now is worth more than the same amount of money later. so yes, MULEs make money. ESSENTIAL for scouting you say? honestly if we gave you a marine that ran like a zergling you'd still complain, since a marine zergling is useless against a walled off opponent. wait wait wait wait wait. are you SERIOUSLY complaining about using a floating barracks? overlord: 100 minerals. 200 hp. move speed 0.47. gives 8 supply. barracks: 150 minerals. 1000 hp. move speed 0.9375. makes fucking marines anywhere. how can you possibly complain about having to float a barracks?? oh wait. it's because you've been spoiled with free magic crop circles. ridiculous.
I'm not with the Terran rage crew or anything, but that economic lesson doesn't apply in StarCraft 2. At least as far as MULES are concerned. The idea that Money now is worth more than the same amount of money later is a real world economic fact, but in SC2 the value of minerals never changes. You will eventually get the minerals that a mule would harvest and it will be worth the same. The only real exception being on mineral patches that have expansions at them but aren't mined out by the end of the game.
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On February 22 2012 06:49 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 05:46 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 05:00 shizna wrote:On February 22 2012 04:42 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects.. for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right? mules don't give you free money. they allow you to gather your minerals FASTER, but you still get the same number of minerals eventually. i don't think you realise how difficult terran would be if you didn't have scanner sweep. it's used for scouting more than detection. it's ESSENTIAL for scouting. if you think terran shouldn't 'waste' mules to scan, then you need to give terran a marine that can run at zergling speed, flying supply depots, an observer or something in order to scout. i mean you could build barracks and float them around.. but that costs almost as much as a scan and they can be killed so they're not exactly permenant..... you must not have taken basic economics. money now is worth more than the same amount of money later. so yes, MULEs make money. ESSENTIAL for scouting you say? honestly if we gave you a marine that ran like a zergling you'd still complain, since a marine zergling is useless against a walled off opponent. wait wait wait wait wait. are you SERIOUSLY complaining about using a floating barracks? overlord: 100 minerals. 200 hp. move speed 0.47. gives 8 supply. barracks: 150 minerals. 1000 hp. move speed 0.9375. makes fucking marines anywhere. how can you possibly complain about having to float a barracks?? oh wait. it's because you've been spoiled with free magic crop circles. ridiculous. I'm not with the Terran rage crew or anything, but that economic lesson doesn't apply in StarCraft 2. At least as far as MULES are concerned. The idea that Money now is worth more than the same amount of money later is a real world economic fact, but in SC2 the value of minerals never changes. You will eventually get the minerals that a mule would harvest and it will be worth the same. The only real exception being on mineral patches that have expansions at them but aren't mined out by the end of the game.
It makes sense if you think of minerals directly supporting building infrastructure. If a protoss 4gates, but has no chrono mechanic, he hits a full minute later with less troops bursting in as warpgate tech finishes, leading directly to the opponent having more stuff at home to defend the push. The units are simply worth more earlier in the game than they are later. Same with Terran MULEs. They increase the rate in which Terran can produce structures earlier and produce more units earlier so that they can be relatively on par with larva injecting and chronoboosts.
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On February 22 2012 06:49 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 05:46 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 05:00 shizna wrote:On February 22 2012 04:42 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects.. for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right? mules don't give you free money. they allow you to gather your minerals FASTER, but you still get the same number of minerals eventually. i don't think you realise how difficult terran would be if you didn't have scanner sweep. it's used for scouting more than detection. it's ESSENTIAL for scouting. if you think terran shouldn't 'waste' mules to scan, then you need to give terran a marine that can run at zergling speed, flying supply depots, an observer or something in order to scout. i mean you could build barracks and float them around.. but that costs almost as much as a scan and they can be killed so they're not exactly permenant..... you must not have taken basic economics. money now is worth more than the same amount of money later. so yes, MULEs make money. ESSENTIAL for scouting you say? honestly if we gave you a marine that ran like a zergling you'd still complain, since a marine zergling is useless against a walled off opponent. wait wait wait wait wait. are you SERIOUSLY complaining about using a floating barracks? overlord: 100 minerals. 200 hp. move speed 0.47. gives 8 supply. barracks: 150 minerals. 1000 hp. move speed 0.9375. makes fucking marines anywhere. how can you possibly complain about having to float a barracks?? oh wait. it's because you've been spoiled with free magic crop circles. ridiculous. I'm not with the Terran rage crew or anything, but that economic lesson doesn't apply in StarCraft 2. At least as far as MULES are concerned. The idea that Money now is worth more than the same amount of money later is a real world economic fact, but in SC2 the value of minerals never changes. You will eventually get the minerals that a mule would harvest and it will be worth the same. The only real exception being on mineral patches that have expansions at them but aren't mined out by the end of the game.
Yes it does apply, economic growth in SC2 is exponential, for instance imagine you had 200 minerals upfront at the beginning of the game, now imagine you get extra 200 minerals in minute 10. ¿Is it worth the same to you?
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Yeah I have what most other people have as well:
I can get the phoenix upgrade in a custom game, and it works just fine (+2 air attack range, no change to graviton beam), but I just played on ladder and it wasn't there in my fleet beacon 
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On February 22 2012 06:04 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 05:46 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 05:00 shizna wrote:On February 22 2012 04:42 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects.. for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right? mules don't give you free money. they allow you to gather your minerals FASTER, but you still get the same number of minerals eventually. i don't think you realise how difficult terran would be if you didn't have scanner sweep. it's used for scouting more than detection. it's ESSENTIAL for scouting. if you think terran shouldn't 'waste' mules to scan, then you need to give terran a marine that can run at zergling speed, flying supply depots, an observer or something in order to scout. i mean you could build barracks and float them around.. but that costs almost as much as a scan and they can be killed so they're not exactly permenant..... you must not have taken basic economics. money now is worth more than the same amount of money later. so yes, MULEs make money. ESSENTIAL for scouting you say? honestly if we gave you a marine that ran like a zergling you'd still complain, since a marine zergling is useless against a walled off opponent. wait wait wait wait wait. are you SERIOUSLY complaining about using a floating barracks? overlord: 100 minerals. 200 hp. move speed 0.47. gives 8 supply. barracks: 150 minerals. 1000 hp. move speed 0.9375. makes fucking marines anywhere. how can you possibly complain about having to float a barracks?? oh wait. it's because you've been spoiled with free magic crop circles. ridiculous. If terran didn't have scan, then how the hell would terran deal with cloaked units? no, not ravens, since they are super far up the tech tree and don't do anything other than detect. You are really stupid if you are comparing barracks and overlords. If anything, you should be comparing overlords and supply depots. overlords can move around and scout, supply depots can't. How can you possibly complain when you have flying supply depots that are great for scouting and units that move super fast? Scans take money, moving overlords and zerglings around is free. Please, actually play the game before making ridiculous statements.
scouting rax are a good means of cheap scouting agaisnt zerg in the early game, since the only unit that can kill it is a queen which does horrible damage and has to do other stuff besides attacking a rax like inject block ramps ect
a flying rax will 100% scout a zergs full base and expo and more and if guided correctly can be saved to scout lair tech
a ovelord MIGHT scout the terrans base assuming the terran LETS the zerg do it other wise patrol marines are pretty good
sending in a 200 hp unit is like rolling dice, marines can easily shut it down
overlords are not free in a time of the game where being a few drones off can cost you the game easily. overlords cost larva, larva can be used to drone or make units
building a rax to scout doesn't interfer with anything other then a bit if mining time lost with that scv but mules more then make up for it + the rax will save you a scan allowing you to use a mule
some terrans don't even scout early game with scv's cause they are so used to things like walls and marines nullifying most early game zerg pressure/all-in
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On February 22 2012 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Yeah I have what most other people have as well: I can get the phoenix upgrade in a custom game, and it works just fine (+2 air attack range, no change to graviton beam), but I just played on ladder and it wasn't there in my fleet beacon
NOOOOOoooooooooooooooo
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I like this, actually. While there is the possibility that tournament games are ruined because of poor reactions to the changes, maybe under the intensity of a tournament format something creative will come out of the woodwork. Lord knows the game could use it.
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So there was a patch?:-D Why the hell isn't it the same date for every server? when will get EU this strange patch which make upgrades available in custom games but not on ladder?:-D
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What are the pros saying about this?
Ugh, I recently made the switch to Terran and have found it extremely difficult to deal with late game Protoss and Zerg and now I just can't see how I could win against anyone good with the nerf. It seems like a really, really bad patch.
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On February 22 2012 07:13 Hollow wrote:
What are the pros saying about this?
Ugh, I recently made the switch to Terran and have found it extremely difficult to deal with late game Protoss and Zerg and now I just can't see how I could win against anyone good with the nerf. It seems like a really, really bad patch.
Most pro opnion is " yeah snipe need a nerf, but this one is too harsh "
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On February 22 2012 07:13 Hollow wrote:
What are the pros saying about this?
Ugh, I recently made the switch to Terran and have found it extremely difficult to deal with late game Protoss and Zerg and now I just can't see how I could win against anyone good with the nerf. It seems like a really, really bad patch.
A lot of pros think the changes are generally called for (including the fact that "a" change to the ghost was needed, although this exact one may not be the correct one). More pros were in favor than against, anyway. Obviously, the vocal minority of anti-patch people (pros and non-pros) were Terrans, as this patch hurts them overall.
I think the key is that you "recently" made the change, and the patch isn't even really out yet for ladder games. Give the patch time, and give yourself time to learn and adapt 
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OH god. it just went live. Here we go.
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United States2556 Posts
On February 22 2012 06:43 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:40 vaderseven wrote:
Someone should link the patch notes!
Try looking 2 posts above you lol.
damnit!
well i did LINK it at least!
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On February 22 2012 07:04 UniversalMind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:04 kofman wrote:On February 22 2012 05:46 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 05:00 shizna wrote:On February 22 2012 04:42 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:
[quote]
I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP.
Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out.
I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine.
The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up.
i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects.. for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right? mules don't give you free money. they allow you to gather your minerals FASTER, but you still get the same number of minerals eventually. i don't think you realise how difficult terran would be if you didn't have scanner sweep. it's used for scouting more than detection. it's ESSENTIAL for scouting. if you think terran shouldn't 'waste' mules to scan, then you need to give terran a marine that can run at zergling speed, flying supply depots, an observer or something in order to scout. i mean you could build barracks and float them around.. but that costs almost as much as a scan and they can be killed so they're not exactly permenant..... you must not have taken basic economics. money now is worth more than the same amount of money later. so yes, MULEs make money. ESSENTIAL for scouting you say? honestly if we gave you a marine that ran like a zergling you'd still complain, since a marine zergling is useless against a walled off opponent. wait wait wait wait wait. are you SERIOUSLY complaining about using a floating barracks? overlord: 100 minerals. 200 hp. move speed 0.47. gives 8 supply. barracks: 150 minerals. 1000 hp. move speed 0.9375. makes fucking marines anywhere. how can you possibly complain about having to float a barracks?? oh wait. it's because you've been spoiled with free magic crop circles. ridiculous. If terran didn't have scan, then how the hell would terran deal with cloaked units? no, not ravens, since they are super far up the tech tree and don't do anything other than detect. You are really stupid if you are comparing barracks and overlords. If anything, you should be comparing overlords and supply depots. overlords can move around and scout, supply depots can't. How can you possibly complain when you have flying supply depots that are great for scouting and units that move super fast? Scans take money, moving overlords and zerglings around is free. Please, actually play the game before making ridiculous statements. scouting rax are a good means of cheap scouting agaisnt zerg in the early game, since the only unit that can kill it is a queen which does horrible damage and has to do other stuff besides attacking a rax like inject block ramps ect
Using a rax to scout in the early game is not worth it...
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On February 22 2012 07:42 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 07:04 UniversalMind wrote:On February 22 2012 06:04 kofman wrote:On February 22 2012 05:46 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 05:00 shizna wrote:On February 22 2012 04:42 TheDraken wrote:On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:
[quote]
i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL.
to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects.. for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right? mules don't give you free money. they allow you to gather your minerals FASTER, but you still get the same number of minerals eventually. i don't think you realise how difficult terran would be if you didn't have scanner sweep. it's used for scouting more than detection. it's ESSENTIAL for scouting. if you think terran shouldn't 'waste' mules to scan, then you need to give terran a marine that can run at zergling speed, flying supply depots, an observer or something in order to scout. i mean you could build barracks and float them around.. but that costs almost as much as a scan and they can be killed so they're not exactly permenant..... you must not have taken basic economics. money now is worth more than the same amount of money later. so yes, MULEs make money. ESSENTIAL for scouting you say? honestly if we gave you a marine that ran like a zergling you'd still complain, since a marine zergling is useless against a walled off opponent. wait wait wait wait wait. are you SERIOUSLY complaining about using a floating barracks? overlord: 100 minerals. 200 hp. move speed 0.47. gives 8 supply. barracks: 150 minerals. 1000 hp. move speed 0.9375. makes fucking marines anywhere. how can you possibly complain about having to float a barracks?? oh wait. it's because you've been spoiled with free magic crop circles. ridiculous. If terran didn't have scan, then how the hell would terran deal with cloaked units? no, not ravens, since they are super far up the tech tree and don't do anything other than detect. You are really stupid if you are comparing barracks and overlords. If anything, you should be comparing overlords and supply depots. overlords can move around and scout, supply depots can't. How can you possibly complain when you have flying supply depots that are great for scouting and units that move super fast? Scans take money, moving overlords and zerglings around is free. Please, actually play the game before making ridiculous statements. scouting rax are a good means of cheap scouting agaisnt zerg in the early game, since the only unit that can kill it is a queen which does horrible damage and has to do other stuff besides attacking a rax like inject block ramps ect Using a rax to scout in the early game is not worth it...
Well unless you plan on some early factory stuff or proxy raxed and are on your way home and don't plan on using the rax for production. 150 early to see what you in most cases know anyway ehhhh i pass
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i tried some theorycrafting today.... people are heralding the Raven as the next TvZ unit because of Hunter Seeker if the ghost patch continues (by the way, they're REALLY bad now against T3, pretty much useless).
How about using mass auto-turret more? You don't need to get your ravens nearly as close because they have 7 range, do as much damage as an upgraded marine, can't be fungaled, and can soak up broodling hits. If they don't have a lot of corruptors, you might be able to use them to either pick off/drive away infestors, focus fire down broodlords, or soak up enough broodlings to let stimmed marines get in range! They're kind of like infested terran against siege tanks.
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The problem with autoturrets is that they are harder to place than Infested Terrans.
The spot where they are getting casted must be clear of any buildings and units.
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On February 22 2012 07:54 jliu wrote:
i tried some theorycrafting today.... people are heralding the Raven as the next TvZ unit because of Hunter Seeker if the ghost patch continues (by the way, they're REALLY bad now against T3, pretty much useless).
How about using mass auto-turret more? You don't need to get your ravens nearly as close because they have 7 range, do as much damage as an upgraded marine, can't be fungaled, and can soak up broodling hits. If they don't have a lot of corruptors, you might be able to use them to either pick off/drive away infestors, focus fire down broodlords, or soak up enough broodlings to let stimmed marines get in range! They're kind of like infested terran against siege tanks.
Not really related but Polt was goofing around mass ravens today in troll games when he was ranking up his EU account, and even though it obviously wasn't serious (though he was beating Master players with 2port raven with marine/hellion to supplement), I was kinda shocked how sturdy those turrets are. They eat through zerglings quite fast and a few of them can kill multiple queens before dying. With the building armour upgrade they would maybe last quite a bit longer against lings and broodlings.
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EPT
