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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 27 2012 08:48 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:46 Astro-Penguin wrote:On February 27 2012 08:40 solidbebe wrote:On February 27 2012 08:37 Astro-Penguin wrote:
Kind of disappointed that they aren't addressing the free viewing of the event (Unfair to people who actually paid tt), but overall this tournament has been a great success. Honestly, it's not. Everyone knew there would be restreams or something that would allow not paying people to watch. (whether this be a bug or not doesnt matter). They still choose to pay to support MLG, and have a stream with no problems. Re-streams can be shutdown and aren't to easy to find, and going into this If I'm going to donate my money I'm going to give it a much better cause, not that I don't support Starcraft 2 but I find it absurd that you think its okay that honest paying customers are basically paying under false pretense for something that everyone else has access to, even though its not directly MLG's fault I cant help but feel like I'm being screwed over. and fyi the free steam is actually much smoother then the actual pay per view which is kind of unacceptable... take the time to think how you would feel if you paid 20 dollars for something you could get free with better quality, basically what your saying is that its okay to pay for an item that everyone else can get for free just because it "supports" an organization Just because people are stealing a product and screwing the teams and players they ostensibly support doesn't make me feel worse about myself. On the contrary, in fact. From a functional perspective, maybe I made a bad choice buying a pass. From a moral and ethical perspective, I made the right one.
From a ethical perspective yes it is the right choice, but that doesn't change the fact that the paying customers are being screwed over, I would even be happy with an apology and future initiative to fix this problem as a compensation which is hopefully and likely to be addressed after the event. I never said I felt worse about myself either, I feel just rather angry that others are getting the same if not better quality of product where as myself as an honest contributor is getting shafted, basically I just want myself and others to be recognized for our honesty, call me selfish but I think that with the given price for this event its the least we deserve.
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On February 27 2012 08:51 Forikorder wrote:
MLGs main event is still going to be free, i dont get why people think that jsut becuase there throwing a couple small PPV events that all of a sudden everything will be PPV
Those statements are not completely known. The fact that MLG has held a cost event (PPV) and that it was successful, might mean that in the future we might see a PPV stream with a Ticket venue. That way, to stream, there is a cost, to attend, there is a cost. I would not be surprised to see this scenario at all.
You assume that other series' will not go PPV as well. I say, since MLG has tried it, and it was successful, it is more a matter of time before we see PPV and Ticketed venue tournaments.
Remember, these tournaments are businesses. They are out to make money. Do not underestimate what a business will do and how far they will go to make 'more' money.
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On February 27 2012 08:54 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:48 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On February 27 2012 08:46 Astro-Penguin wrote:On February 27 2012 08:40 solidbebe wrote:On February 27 2012 08:37 Astro-Penguin wrote:
Kind of disappointed that they aren't addressing the free viewing of the event (Unfair to people who actually paid tt), but overall this tournament has been a great success. Honestly, it's not. Everyone knew there would be restreams or something that would allow not paying people to watch. (whether this be a bug or not doesnt matter). They still choose to pay to support MLG, and have a stream with no problems. Re-streams can be shutdown and aren't to easy to find, and going into this If I'm going to donate my money I'm going to give it a much better cause, not that I don't support Starcraft 2 but I find it absurd that you think its okay that honest paying customers are basically paying under false pretense for something that everyone else has access to, even though its not directly MLG's fault I cant help but feel like I'm being screwed over. and fyi the free steam is actually much smoother then the actual pay per view which is kind of unacceptable... take the time to think how you would feel if you paid 20 dollars for something you could get free with better quality, basically what your saying is that its okay to pay for an item that everyone else can get for free just because it "supports" an organization Just because people are stealing a product and screwing the teams and players they ostensibly support doesn't make me feel worse about myself. On the contrary, in fact. From a functional perspective, maybe I made a bad choice buying a pass. From a moral and ethical perspective, I made the right one. Stealing? I tuned into the MLG site and got the stream for free, am I supposed to put my fingers in my ears and cover my eyes going "NO THIS IS WRONG" no I am going to watch for free like I did. Don't pretend we are sitting here with evil mustaches and some crazy hack that is letting us watch this, it's simply free for just about anyone.
You're consuming a for-pay product without paying. Like it or not. Look, I'm not saying you're sitting there twirling your moustache or anything, but let's not pretend that looking for restreams or spamming refresh or switching qualities quickly to bypass the paywall is anything other than intentional theft.
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On February 27 2012 08:58 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:51 Forikorder wrote:
MLGs main event is still going to be free, i dont get why people think that jsut becuase there throwing a couple small PPV events that all of a sudden everything will be PPV Those statements are not completely known. The fact that MLG has held a cost event (PPV) and that it was successful, might mean that in the future we might see a PPV stream with a Ticket venue. That way, to stream, there is a cost, to attend, there is a cost. I would not be surprised to see this scenario at all. You assume that other series' will not go PPV as well. I say, since MLG has tried it, and it was successful, it is more a matter of time before we see PPV and Ticketed venue tournaments. Remember, these tournaments are businesses. They are out to make money. Do not underestimate what a business will do and how far they will go to make 'more' money.
Even if ASUS, IEM, MLG, GSL, NASL, IPL, EGMC, DreamHack and every other tournament I've forgotten goes completely PPV, there will still be player streams, ZOTAC, Go4SC, Playhem, the Beyond Gaming dailies... There's gonna be a lot of free content out there.
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On February 27 2012 08:53 VanillaSky wrote:
people paying for mlg are ruining esports. soon enough all events will cost money. you shall see, you all shall see
No, the people who expect everything for free are the ones who are ruining E-sports. If leagues didn't charge for content, they would eventually go bankrupt and close down which would end E-sports. What they're doing now is what they have to do to make E-sports self-sustainable. All events will not cost money, the major events will always run a free stream (GSL championships, MLG championships, NASL, etc.) but when they decide to produce extra content by running more tournaments, you can't expect them to make everything free, otherwise how can you expect them to self-sustain and make back the money that they spent?
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On February 27 2012 08:57 Astro-Penguin wrote:
From a ethical perspective yes it is the right choice, but that doesn't change the fact that the paying customers are being screwed over, I would even be happy with an apology and future initiative to fix this problem as a compensation which is hopefully and likely to be addressed after the event. I never said I felt worse about myself either, I feel just rather angry that others are getting the same if not better quality of product where as myself as an honest contributor is getting shafted, basically I just want myself and others to be recognized for our honesty, call me selfish but I think that with the given price for this event its the least we deserve.
Watching a restream ONLY hurts the production organisation directly. Don't fool yourself that it hurts players and teams. If the prize pool was directly a percentage of revenue, that is the only way it can hurt the players or teams directly.
That being said, the restreaming was mostly from russian or eastern EU stream sites. They were not easy to find, and they were unstable at best. The number of people watching a restream was fairly low. As such the lost biz was minimal.
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On February 27 2012 08:59 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:54 esotericc wrote:On February 27 2012 08:48 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On February 27 2012 08:46 Astro-Penguin wrote:On February 27 2012 08:40 solidbebe wrote:On February 27 2012 08:37 Astro-Penguin wrote:
Kind of disappointed that they aren't addressing the free viewing of the event (Unfair to people who actually paid tt), but overall this tournament has been a great success. Honestly, it's not. Everyone knew there would be restreams or something that would allow not paying people to watch. (whether this be a bug or not doesnt matter). They still choose to pay to support MLG, and have a stream with no problems. Re-streams can be shutdown and aren't to easy to find, and going into this If I'm going to donate my money I'm going to give it a much better cause, not that I don't support Starcraft 2 but I find it absurd that you think its okay that honest paying customers are basically paying under false pretense for something that everyone else has access to, even though its not directly MLG's fault I cant help but feel like I'm being screwed over. and fyi the free steam is actually much smoother then the actual pay per view which is kind of unacceptable... take the time to think how you would feel if you paid 20 dollars for something you could get free with better quality, basically what your saying is that its okay to pay for an item that everyone else can get for free just because it "supports" an organization Just because people are stealing a product and screwing the teams and players they ostensibly support doesn't make me feel worse about myself. On the contrary, in fact. From a functional perspective, maybe I made a bad choice buying a pass. From a moral and ethical perspective, I made the right one. Stealing? I tuned into the MLG site and got the stream for free, am I supposed to put my fingers in my ears and cover my eyes going "NO THIS IS WRONG" no I am going to watch for free like I did. Don't pretend we are sitting here with evil mustaches and some crazy hack that is letting us watch this, it's simply free for just about anyone. You're consuming a for-pay product without paying. Like it or not. Look, I'm not saying you're sitting there twirling your moustache or anything, but let's not pretend that looking for restreams or spamming refresh or switching qualities quickly to bypass the paywall is anything other than intentional theft.
It's not stealing because its being given away for free... It legitimately just works for me, no refresh nothing.
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On February 27 2012 08:56 ninjamyst wrote:
Can ANYONE list reasons how this PPV tournament is better than say....Dreamhack or HSC4?? Please do enlighten me.
MLG is my favorite tournament. It's like an MLG but with more of what I like in it. The casters and the players are a lot more relaxed. The schedule is so much more predictable. Besides the two casters, they have 1-2 other people who watch the game and discuss with the other two casters after the game.
The quality of the games was through the roof. I've never seen a tournament with games this good throughout.
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On February 27 2012 09:02 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:57 Astro-Penguin wrote:
[Just because people are stealing a product and screwing the teams and players they ostensibly support doesn't make me feel worse about myself. On the contrary, in fact. From a functional perspective, maybe I made a bad choice buying a pass. From a moral and ethical perspective, I made the right one. From a ethical perspective yes it is the right choice, but that doesn't change the fact that the paying customers are being screwed over, I would even be happy with an apology and future initiative to fix this problem as a compensation which is hopefully and likely to be addressed after the event. I never said I felt worse about myself either, I feel just rather angry that others are getting the same if not better quality of product where as myself as an honest contributor is getting shafted, basically I just want myself and others to be recognized for our honesty, call me selfish but I think that with the given price for this event its the least we deserve.
Watching a restream ONLY hurts the production organisation directly. Don't fool yourself that it hurts players and teams. If the prize pool was directly a percentage of revenue, that is the only way it can hurt the players or teams directly.
That being said, the restreaming was mostly from russian or eastern EU stream sites. They were not easy to find, and they were unstable at best. The number of people watching a restream was fairly low. As such the lost biz was minimal.[/QUOTE]
Actually, some teams and eSports figures outside of MLG were profiting off of the passes.
edit: sorry for two posts right after each other. >_<
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On February 27 2012 08:56 ninjamyst wrote:
Can ANYONE list reasons how this PPV tournament is better than say....Dreamhack or HSC4?? Please do enlighten me.
If you don't like it fine. I'm enjoying myself, and I think it's better than Dreamhack and HSC4.
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On February 27 2012 08:59 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:54 esotericc wrote:On February 27 2012 08:48 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On February 27 2012 08:46 Astro-Penguin wrote:On February 27 2012 08:40 solidbebe wrote:On February 27 2012 08:37 Astro-Penguin wrote:
Kind of disappointed that they aren't addressing the free viewing of the event (Unfair to people who actually paid tt), but overall this tournament has been a great success. Honestly, it's not. Everyone knew there would be restreams or something that would allow not paying people to watch. (whether this be a bug or not doesnt matter). They still choose to pay to support MLG, and have a stream with no problems. Re-streams can be shutdown and aren't to easy to find, and going into this If I'm going to donate my money I'm going to give it a much better cause, not that I don't support Starcraft 2 but I find it absurd that you think its okay that honest paying customers are basically paying under false pretense for something that everyone else has access to, even though its not directly MLG's fault I cant help but feel like I'm being screwed over. and fyi the free steam is actually much smoother then the actual pay per view which is kind of unacceptable... take the time to think how you would feel if you paid 20 dollars for something you could get free with better quality, basically what your saying is that its okay to pay for an item that everyone else can get for free just because it "supports" an organization Just because people are stealing a product and screwing the teams and players they ostensibly support doesn't make me feel worse about myself. On the contrary, in fact. From a functional perspective, maybe I made a bad choice buying a pass. From a moral and ethical perspective, I made the right one. Stealing? I tuned into the MLG site and got the stream for free, am I supposed to put my fingers in my ears and cover my eyes going "NO THIS IS WRONG" no I am going to watch for free like I did. Don't pretend we are sitting here with evil mustaches and some crazy hack that is letting us watch this, it's simply free for just about anyone. You're consuming a for-pay product without paying. Like it or not. Look, I'm not saying you're sitting there twirling your moustache or anything, but let's not pretend that looking for restreams or spamming refresh or switching qualities quickly to bypass the paywall is anything other than intentional theft.
I am currently watching the MLG final and have watched the last two matches. I have not paid anything. I am watching on the official MLG site. I am using chrome in normal mode with everything enabled and no addons. Should I really of paid when I did not need to? I did not intend to 'steal' anything but it just never asked me to pay.
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Oh - and I should say - the quality of the games has NOTHING to do with the organisation. It more has to do with luck of the draw with the specific players and how the matches play out.
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On February 27 2012 08:43 draumr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:35 Arghmyliver wrote:
I watched this MLG for free. The production was great. People have told me that "The price is fine, dont be cheap." I'm not cheap, I just don't have $20. I place little to no value on money, my lifestyle is efficient, comfortable, and affordable. I feel like it was the contribution of the community that allowed people like MLG to make any money in the first place. So charging me for this content is insulting, demeaning, and frankly - shows that MLG is so profit driven that they can't see past their own paychecks. It has been sad for me to watch SC grow from humble roots, to a strong, community driven flourish and now fall to the corrupt and disgustingly immoral capitalist dogma that hinders our species as a whole. PLEASE make this a "pay what you can" event. PLEASE understand that without the community you are nothing. and PLEASE do not become AMERICAN POLITICS. Think of how bad that stigma is. This makes me angry. I don't mean, it disappoints me, or i'm slightly annoyed by it, but I am actually angry by statements like this. I am sorry that someone try to be successful. I am sorry you don't personally care about money, or having a lifestyle different than your own. I am sorry you want MLG employee's to not make money to make your life better. I am sorry that we can't all do whatever we want without ever worrying about money and everyone would help each other. Seriously, that is not how the world works. This isn't a fairy tale. I can understand complaining because you don't feel something is worth what they are charging, or not buying because you live in EU/work/are poor. But to bitch about the world because you dislike how it works is mind boggling. Charging you for dozens of peoples hard work in order to provide you entertainment is not insulting or demeaning. It is how these people LIVE. They aren't pocketing 90% profits and begging for more money for no reason, they aren't making money and have a ton of venture capital keeping their business going, and want to be more self reliant. If you don't want to support that than don't, but don't bitch and try to say the way the world works is unjust because MLG is wanting to charge money for an event.
This makes me angry. I spend a lot of time posting a response about how I think the people who brought MLG to its current success deserve some consideration - and you don't even have the decency to post your flaming insults with correct grammar. I suggested a "PAY WHAT YOU CAN" system - which you are obviously incapable of understanding. If you can't read OR write a language - don't post, or make replies to posts in it. The way the world works is unjust. It is our responsibility as citizens of the world to go and fucking do something about it. Instead of sitting around telling other people that they should just take it up the butt cause that's how it's always been maybe you should grow a pair of fucking testicles and get out there and be fucking vocal. Don't tell me that my unhappiness with the social order is misplaced. Go tell that to fucking poor ass AIDS ridden malnourished babies in Africa. Tell them they shouldn't whine "cause thats how its always been."
Also read my second post.
I fucking love you man. I love you so much it hurts to tell you this. But I am. Because I love you. Just like I love every human being on this planet. If that's wrong, I will never be right.
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On February 27 2012 09:01 eLeVaTioN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:53 VanillaSky wrote:
people paying for mlg are ruining esports. soon enough all events will cost money. you shall see, you all shall see No, the people who expect everything for free are the ones who are ruining E-sports. If leagues didn't charge for content, they would eventually go bankrupt and close down which would end E-sports. What they're doing now is what they have to do to make E-sports self-sustainable. All events will not cost money, the major events will always run a free stream (GSL championships, MLG championships, NASL, etc.) but when they decide to produce extra content by running more tournaments, you can't expect them to make everything free, otherwise how can you expect them to self-sustain and make back the money that they spent?
two words
ad revenue
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On February 27 2012 08:58 Grimmyman123 wrote:
Those statements are not completely known. The fact that MLG has held a cost event (PPV) and that it was successful, might mean that in the future we might see a PPV stream with a Ticket venue. That way, to stream, there is a cost, to attend, there is a cost. I would not be surprised to see this scenario at all.
You assume that other series' will not go PPV as well. I say, since MLG has tried it, and it was successful, it is more a matter of time before we see PPV and Ticketed venue tournaments.
Remember, these tournaments are businesses. They are out to make money. Do not underestimate what a business will do and how far they will go to make 'more' money.
It is known that the main MLG events will always have a free stream, Sundance himself said that they would always run a free stream for their main events. Secondly to attend an MLG event, it does cost money as you buy a spectator pass which they've been doing for a number of years yet no one has ever had a problem with it.
Other leagues have run PPV events, GSL ran one I believe and no one flipped out over that, so why are people flipping out over this? Will more leagues run PPV events? probably but they will be most likely be smaller events, their main events will have a free stream.
MLG has yet to make money, all they want to do is make it self-sustainable, which is what every league will have to do too. So what's the problem with that?
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On February 27 2012 09:03 LittleAtari wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:56 ninjamyst wrote:
Can ANYONE list reasons how this PPV tournament is better than say....Dreamhack or HSC4?? Please do enlighten me. MLG is my favorite tournament. It's like an MLG but with more of what I like in it. The casters and the players are a lot more relaxed. The schedule is so much more predictable. Besides the two casters, they have 1-2 other people who watch the game and discuss with the other two casters after the game. The quality of the games was through the roof. I've never seen a tournament with games this good throughout.
I am sorry but making up for their past mistakes of horrible schedules and downtime should be part of their goal for the FREE MLG Circuit. Fixing your mistakes != charge more money. Quality of games has nothing to do with PPV. It's just part of bringing great players together, something all tournaments do.
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On February 27 2012 09:06 VanillaSky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 09:01 eLeVaTioN wrote:On February 27 2012 08:53 VanillaSky wrote:
people paying for mlg are ruining esports. soon enough all events will cost money. you shall see, you all shall see No, the people who expect everything for free are the ones who are ruining E-sports. If leagues didn't charge for content, they would eventually go bankrupt and close down which would end E-sports. What they're doing now is what they have to do to make E-sports self-sustainable. All events will not cost money, the major events will always run a free stream (GSL championships, MLG championships, NASL, etc.) but when they decide to produce extra content by running more tournaments, you can't expect them to make everything free, otherwise how can you expect them to self-sustain and make back the money that they spent? two words ad revenue
A few more words: not enough ad revenue and lots of people run ad blockers.
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On February 27 2012 09:02 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:57 Astro-Penguin wrote:
From a ethical perspective yes it is the right choice, but that doesn't change the fact that the paying customers are being screwed over, I would even be happy with an apology and future initiative to fix this problem as a compensation which is hopefully and likely to be addressed after the event. I never said I felt worse about myself either, I feel just rather angry that others are getting the same if not better quality of product where as myself as an honest contributor is getting shafted, basically I just want myself and others to be recognized for our honesty, call me selfish but I think that with the given price for this event its the least we deserve.
Watching a restream ONLY hurts the production organisation directly. Don't fool yourself that it hurts players and teams. If the prize pool was directly a percentage of revenue, that is the only way it can hurt the players or teams directly. That being said, the restreaming was mostly from russian or eastern EU stream sites. They were not easy to find, and they were unstable at best. The number of people watching a restream was fairly low. As such the lost biz was minimal.
I don't understand your logic, and never did I say that I paid under false pretenses of supporting the players or a prize pool, I paid under the assumption that there would be no good way to view this event comfortably without paying, to be quiet honest I don't really care where the money goes as long as I get the content, but when others can view the same thing for free I have a problem, because suddenly my investment turns into in one form or another a donation in which by no means would I be willing to donate 20 dollars to a stable organization opposed to third world countries and etc.
I really don't see how anyone can argue that it's alright for someone to get the same product without paying the same price, if it was a much smaller minority viewing for free then I wouldn't really care, but pretty much 80% of the people I've talked to this weekend have been watching for free.
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On February 27 2012 09:06 VanillaSky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 09:01 eLeVaTioN wrote:On February 27 2012 08:53 VanillaSky wrote:
people paying for mlg are ruining esports. soon enough all events will cost money. you shall see, you all shall see No, the people who expect everything for free are the ones who are ruining E-sports. If leagues didn't charge for content, they would eventually go bankrupt and close down which would end E-sports. What they're doing now is what they have to do to make E-sports self-sustainable. All events will not cost money, the major events will always run a free stream (GSL championships, MLG championships, NASL, etc.) but when they decide to produce extra content by running more tournaments, you can't expect them to make everything free, otherwise how can you expect them to self-sustain and make back the money that they spent? two words ad revenue
Advertisers need to see that something is profitable before they will pay for ad space.
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On February 27 2012 08:56 ninjamyst wrote:
Can ANYONE list reasons how this PPV tournament is better than say....Dreamhack or HSC4?? Please do enlighten me.
If I have a team and I get invited to a tournament where all my expenses are paid for, I don't have to plan the itinerary and the prize pool is decent. I would pick it over the other tournament that is booked the same week.
This is where what I said before comes in.
It's time for the big tournament organizers to come together and book a world circuit so there is no overlap and tournament rules and policy become one. One rule book; one format. In terms of legitimacy, this would be a step in the right direction. Instead of looking at each as competitors it's time to band together. Doesn't mean they cannot take turns hosting in each city.
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EPT
