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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it?
One of the main reason why E-sports is where it is now is because it has always been "Free"
Sundane's decision on turning "E-sports" into money making banking machine is going to ruin what has been built up for the last 10 years by the Koreans. The word. "PPV" has never been near the same quadrant as E-sports. that just sounds wrong.
Hell I never pay for UFC fights even though there were top top top fighters in the world duking out for title belt.
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On February 17 2012 02:41 naut1c wrote:im curious now, will there be anything for free? or nothing at all Show nested quote +As has always been the case, our live Championship Events will continue to have a free standard-quality broadcast. what does that mean? all important matches including final for free sd?
He is talking about the 4 championship events and not the arena. During this arena I believe one match on Friday and Saturday will be free and there will be a free stream running for the entirety of the event conducting behind the scenes stuff and interviews.
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On February 17 2012 02:36 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:21 RajaF wrote:On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it? The guy spent 10 years running a business in the red and he still has not managed to turn it around (wholy crap man, in a real life business you might get 2-3 years tops to get into the black before you go belly up). So yeah the only thing he has proved is that he also has no clue just like the rest of us. This is a real life business unless your definition of real life business is different than mine. He did get a lot of support from investors in the last few years which shows that there are people in the business world who like what MLG is doing and believe that it will be successful. Basically his business has been expanding since inception and along with expansion comes extra expenses. When eSports reaches its potential he will probably start getting to a point that he will turn profits. Also your argument is all the more reason why he should have PPV since the other models were not strong enough get him out of the red. Like I said, he might be wrong on what he is doing now but his opinion counts a lot more than the majority of ours due to his experience in running a multi-million dollar eSports company. He is one of a few experts in the field who can come up with the proper model.
Sorry, real life was a bad chioce of words. Should of just said any other business. And just because it's millions of dollars it does not make him an expert. He is an expert just like those Wall St types that caused a world economic crysis four years ago. Everyone trusted them because they had supposed "experience" yet all they did was run a big scam.
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On February 17 2012 02:49 tylervoss4 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it? One of the main reason why E-sports is where it is now is because it has always been "Free" Sundane's decision on turning "E-sports" into money making banking machine is going to ruin what has been built up for the last 10 years by the Koreans. The word. "PPV" has never been near the same quadrant as E-sports. that just sounds wrong. Hell I never pay for UFC fights even though there were top top top fighters in the world duking out for title belt.
I disagree that it will ruin it. If he fails then PPV fails. That does not mean that eSports stops, but it does give us a little insight on the potential growth of eSports. And free stuff will be around regardless of MLGs successes.
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I dislike the comparison to the movies. Everyone keeps saying 20$ is nothing, it's the same as going to the movies, but that's such a bad argument. Obviously 20$ isn't a TON of money, but I enjoyed watching MLG all day and going to the movies at night, now I'm being limited to one or the other, or pay 40$. That is the issue here, I think. It's that you get everyone involved in e-Sports by monetizing viewers with Ads and now you are forcing them to pay to watch the greatness you helped build... I think it's disrespectful to the community that MADE MLG.
It's like saying: ''Alright guys, we had a rough few years but with everyone's support we are HUGE now! Go eSports!! But now that we're big, it's time to pay for what you guys help make.''
I honestly think if MLG was more open as to WHY we are paying the 20$ it'd be easier to accept. If MLG was to say, listen we want to support players better and get korean players here, we can only do that if we receive more money from you guys, here's a subscription service that will give you a stream of the player area, exclusive interviews, high quality on all the streams and a free t-shirt. FUCK I WOULD PAY 30$ FOR THAT! As it is right now though, it sounds like: ''Pay 20$ for what's been free up until now, with nothing new to add.
I'm a big fan of MLG, I've been to every barcraft montreal so far, but I feel disrespected when I can't watch an awesome tournament that would never have happened were it not for the thousands of ads I saw for it unless I pay 20$. I'll be supporting the free euro scene I help build instead this weekend, but I'll be sad the whole time that I can't be watching what I really want. 
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I don't think Sundane made the right decision and many of us don't.
From stand point of both individual and business level, his decision doesn't make much sense.
PPV only works if you have monopoly over what you do, and it's well worth the money.
Is MLG worth the money? sure if thats where you can only watch top top top pros play. But cleary, that's not the case here.
Especially when every single tournament is trying to embed SC2 as their title game.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 17 2012 02:56 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:49 tylervoss4 wrote:On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it? One of the main reason why E-sports is where it is now is because it has always been "Free" Sundane's decision on turning "E-sports" into money making banking machine is going to ruin what has been built up for the last 10 years by the Koreans. The word. "PPV" has never been near the same quadrant as E-sports. that just sounds wrong. Hell I never pay for UFC fights even though there were top top top fighters in the world duking out for title belt. I disagree that it will ruin it. If he fails then PPV fails. That does not mean that eSports stops, but it does give us a little insight on the potential growth of eSports. And free stuff will be around regardless of MLGs successes.
Yeah, I mean if it turns out the market isn't mature or able to bear a PPV model, then so be it-- MLG will have to use a different business model. I can't really blame Sundance for giving it a try. And if this is successful? Having half of the MLG events being PPV can support big prize pools and help provide money for more people to play this game professionally. If it's not successful, he'll find something else. He's a businessman, he won't let MLG fail.
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I hope people re-stream this for others who can't as easily throw out $20 for a single weekend because I will definitely be watching that over paying for this. Call me hurting the scene or whatever you like, but I think Sundance is hurting the scene really, this cuts out a lot of people who don't have the money to spend on this for one weekend. There is no lower price stream to purchase, $20 or nothing. What message does that send to people with less money to throw out? You can't get into SC2 because it is too pricey.
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On February 17 2012 02:50 RajaF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:36 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 02:21 RajaF wrote:On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it? The guy spent 10 years running a business in the red and he still has not managed to turn it around (wholy crap man, in a real life business you might get 2-3 years tops to get into the black before you go belly up). So yeah the only thing he has proved is that he also has no clue just like the rest of us. This is a real life business unless your definition of real life business is different than mine. He did get a lot of support from investors in the last few years which shows that there are people in the business world who like what MLG is doing and believe that it will be successful. Basically his business has been expanding since inception and along with expansion comes extra expenses. When eSports reaches its potential he will probably start getting to a point that he will turn profits. Also your argument is all the more reason why he should have PPV since the other models were not strong enough get him out of the red. Like I said, he might be wrong on what he is doing now but his opinion counts a lot more than the majority of ours due to his experience in running a multi-million dollar eSports company. He is one of a few experts in the field who can come up with the proper model. Sorry, real life was a bad chioce of words. Should of just said any other business. And just because it's millions of dollars it does not make him an expert. He is an expert just like those Wall St types that caused a world economic crysis four years ago. Everyone trusted them because they had supposed "experience" yet all they did was run a big scam.
And they were able to scam a lot of people because they were experts with a lot of experience. I do not think MLG is trying to scam us here. They are trying to legitimize their business; they are leaders in the field and if there is anyone out there who has the experience or expertise in a venture like this it would be them. And once again, I am not saying that they are right or that it will work but the chances of it working is best with them since they understand this business much better than the far majority of their fans.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 17 2012 03:00 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:50 RajaF wrote:On February 17 2012 02:36 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 02:21 RajaF wrote:On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it? The guy spent 10 years running a business in the red and he still has not managed to turn it around (wholy crap man, in a real life business you might get 2-3 years tops to get into the black before you go belly up). So yeah the only thing he has proved is that he also has no clue just like the rest of us. This is a real life business unless your definition of real life business is different than mine. He did get a lot of support from investors in the last few years which shows that there are people in the business world who like what MLG is doing and believe that it will be successful. Basically his business has been expanding since inception and along with expansion comes extra expenses. When eSports reaches its potential he will probably start getting to a point that he will turn profits. Also your argument is all the more reason why he should have PPV since the other models were not strong enough get him out of the red. Like I said, he might be wrong on what he is doing now but his opinion counts a lot more than the majority of ours due to his experience in running a multi-million dollar eSports company. He is one of a few experts in the field who can come up with the proper model. Sorry, real life was a bad chioce of words. Should of just said any other business. And just because it's millions of dollars it does not make him an expert. He is an expert just like those Wall St types that caused a world economic crysis four years ago. Everyone trusted them because they had supposed "experience" yet all they did was run a big scam. And they were able to scam a lot of people because they were experts with a lot of experience. I do not think MLG is trying to scam us here. They are trying to legitimize their business; they are leaders in the field and if there is anyone out there who has the experience or expertise in a venture like this it would be them. And once again, I am not saying that they are right or that it will work but the chances of it working is best with them since they understand this business much better than the far majority of their fans.
In a way, I'd even consider a failure of PPV to be valuable since it would provide everyone with an idea of what the market will bear. someone has to give it a try, right? I think GSL tried this with its AoL tournaments as well.
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On February 17 2012 02:50 RajaF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:36 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 02:21 RajaF wrote:On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it? The guy spent 10 years running a business in the red and he still has not managed to turn it around (wholy crap man, in a real life business you might get 2-3 years tops to get into the black before you go belly up). So yeah the only thing he has proved is that he also has no clue just like the rest of us. This is a real life business unless your definition of real life business is different than mine. He did get a lot of support from investors in the last few years which shows that there are people in the business world who like what MLG is doing and believe that it will be successful. Basically his business has been expanding since inception and along with expansion comes extra expenses. When eSports reaches its potential he will probably start getting to a point that he will turn profits. Also your argument is all the more reason why he should have PPV since the other models were not strong enough get him out of the red. Like I said, he might be wrong on what he is doing now but his opinion counts a lot more than the majority of ours due to his experience in running a multi-million dollar eSports company. He is one of a few experts in the field who can come up with the proper model. Sorry, real life was a bad chioce of words. Should of just said any other business. And just because it's millions of dollars it does not make him an expert. He is an expert just like those Wall St types that caused a world economic crysis four years ago. Everyone trusted them because they had supposed "experience" yet all they did was run a big scam.
ESPORTS is not like any other business. No one has consistently turned out a profit yet.
Also your last sentence reinforces you have no clue about economy.
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On February 17 2012 03:03 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:50 RajaF wrote:On February 17 2012 02:36 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 02:21 RajaF wrote:On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it? The guy spent 10 years running a business in the red and he still has not managed to turn it around (wholy crap man, in a real life business you might get 2-3 years tops to get into the black before you go belly up). So yeah the only thing he has proved is that he also has no clue just like the rest of us. This is a real life business unless your definition of real life business is different than mine. He did get a lot of support from investors in the last few years which shows that there are people in the business world who like what MLG is doing and believe that it will be successful. Basically his business has been expanding since inception and along with expansion comes extra expenses. When eSports reaches its potential he will probably start getting to a point that he will turn profits. Also your argument is all the more reason why he should have PPV since the other models were not strong enough get him out of the red. Like I said, he might be wrong on what he is doing now but his opinion counts a lot more than the majority of ours due to his experience in running a multi-million dollar eSports company. He is one of a few experts in the field who can come up with the proper model. Sorry, real life was a bad chioce of words. Should of just said any other business. And just because it's millions of dollars it does not make him an expert. He is an expert just like those Wall St types that caused a world economic crysis four years ago. Everyone trusted them because they had supposed "experience" yet all they did was run a big scam. ESPORTS is not like any other business. No one has consistently turned out a profit yet. Also your last sentence reinforces you have no clue about economy.
I really don't have a clue you are right. But I get my info from my father who has a PhD in economy, so I will trust his opinion over yours, which so far says it is you who hasn't got a clue.
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$20 is nothing to supporting eSports, something we all love and watch and receive a TON of free content for. You get ripped off over $20 for popcorn and a drink at movies if you want to make that comparison, something that will give me 1-2 hours of "entertainment" at best.
The underlying premise here is that eSports has to GROW. Not remain at this level, or shrink. In order to grow, there needs to be a basic infastructure of income for eSports. Markets don't exist based on nobody paying anything, they die. If you think $20 is too much for supporting gaming, indirectly supporting all the other teams, including HuK, IdrA, MC, LeeNock, EVERYONE, including their respective teams and sponsors, then you don't deserve to call yourself a fan or member of this community, This has been the running case, everyone finds anything to complain about to not pay.
TLDR - I don't want eSports to stay at $5000 tournaments, and at the same level, neither should you. If we want eSports to be "BIG" then we have to pay just like any other sport. $20 is not much in the scope of things, considering I'm supporting everything I stand for, and have received so much free content over the years.
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On February 17 2012 03:10 Slardar wrote:
$20 is nothing to supporting eSports, something we all love and watch and receive a TON of free content for. You get ripped off over $20 for popcorn and a drink at movies if you want to make that comparison, something that will give me 1-2 hours of "entertainment" at best.
The underlying premise here is that eSports has to GROW. Not remain at this level, or shrink. In order to grow, there needs to be a basic infastructure of income for eSports. Markets don't exist based on nobody paying anything, they die. If you think $20 is too much for supporting gaming, indirectly supporting all the other teams, including HuK, IdrA, MC, LeeNock, EVERYONE, including their respective teams and sponsors, then you don't deserve to call yourself a fan or member of this community, This has been the running case, everyone finds anything to complain about to not pay.
TLDR - I don't want eSports to stay at $5000 tournaments, and at the same level, neither should you. If we want eSports to be "BIG" then we have to pay just like any other sport. $20 is not much in the scope of things, considering I'm supporting everything I stand for, and have received so much free content over the years.
100% disagree.
you are arbitrarily inflating the value of esports by purchasing a $20 pass NOW, because it SUPPORTS ESPORTS.
everything you said could be applied to any point in time in esports history. what if the mlg went PPV for last years events? Are you still a phony, who doesn't support esports if you don't pay $20 to access MLG Anaheim? Why now are you considered a farce if you think this arena, or esports in general isn't big enough to sustain $20 ppvs? Why is it this instance that we must support esports with PPV, or be undeserving of calling ourselves fans?
Since your argument can't really address any of those concerns it's just a hollow white knight post which is everything esports DOESN'T need. As scoots and sundance himself said, if you feel this is too early, too expensive or not the right time don't buy it. Esports isn't a charity and the MLG isn't the red cross. If we artificially inflate the PPV buys for MLG Arena we are doing more harm then good because MLG will have tainted data. People will not support MLG on charity or sympathy of BUY THIS OR YOURE NOT A REAL ESPORTS FAN for the long haul, that is 100% unsustainable.
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On February 17 2012 03:21 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:10 Slardar wrote:
$20 is nothing to supporting eSports, something we all love and watch and receive a TON of free content for. You get ripped off over $20 for popcorn and a drink at movies if you want to make that comparison, something that will give me 1-2 hours of "entertainment" at best.
The underlying premise here is that eSports has to GROW. Not remain at this level, or shrink. In order to grow, there needs to be a basic infastructure of income for eSports. Markets don't exist based on nobody paying anything, they die. If you think $20 is too much for supporting gaming, indirectly supporting all the other teams, including HuK, IdrA, MC, LeeNock, EVERYONE, including their respective teams and sponsors, then you don't deserve to call yourself a fan or member of this community, This has been the running case, everyone finds anything to complain about to not pay.
TLDR - I don't want eSports to stay at $5000 tournaments, and at the same level, neither should you. If we want eSports to be "BIG" then we have to pay just like any other sport. $20 is not much in the scope of things, considering I'm supporting everything I stand for, and have received so much free content over the years. 100% disagree. you are arbitrarily inflating the value of esports by purchasing a $20 pass NOW, because it SUPPORTS ESPORTS. everything you said could be applied to any point in time in esports history. what if the mlg went PPV for last years events? Are you still a phony, who doesn't support esports if you don't pay $20 to access MLG Anaheim? Why now are you considered a farce if you think this arena, or esports in general isn't big enough to sustain $20 ppvs? Why is it this instance that we must support esports with PPV, or be undeserving of calling ourselves fans? Since your argument can't really address any of those concerns it's just a hollow white knight post which is everything esports DOESN'T need. As scoots and sundance himself said, if you feel this is too early, too expensive or not the right time don't buy it. Esports isn't a charity and the MLG isn't the red cross. If we artificially inflate the PPV buys for MLG Arena we are doing more harm then good because MLG will have tainted data. People will not support MLG on charity or sympathy of BUY THIS OR YOURE NOT A REAL ESPORTS FAN for the long haul, that is 100% unsustainable.
How can you 100% Disagree?
If MLG PPV was PPV for the last few years and failed, SC2 probably wouldn't be a MLG Title or with $5000/minimal prizes. You make the "Charity case" argument, yet you fail to realize the people dumping the majority of THEIR money (Sundance being one) realize eSports isn't a charity case, something has to happen. You can bandwagon all you want with the hatred, the bottom line is many people are just finding excuses to not pay.
eSports doesn't need White Knights, we need people who don't pay anything and complain instead? You just post that to insult and discredit my post, yet you have no alternative. We don't need that, what do we need then? I think we both know what we need, don't kid ourselves here. How is paying $20 for entertainment a charity case? If you don't think watching SC2 at the highest level, or the scene is worth paying, you never will or you need to change your mind into thinking from a business aspect. People can call themselves fans all they want, the real fans support their passion with money, this is not supposed to be insulting, It's a reality.
The only reason I went to the extreme and said "You're not a real esports fan" is because this isn't a viable market yet. If none of us pay, there is no other millions of people investing the money to keep this alive, this isn't an established sport like Football, Hockey, ETC. If we want to make it an established sport, we have to support it. If you want it to disappear, then continue with your train of thought, that being said everyone cannot pay for everything, I'm just addressing the general negativity.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 17 2012 03:21 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:10 Slardar wrote:
$20 is nothing to supporting eSports, something we all love and watch and receive a TON of free content for. You get ripped off over $20 for popcorn and a drink at movies if you want to make that comparison, something that will give me 1-2 hours of "entertainment" at best.
The underlying premise here is that eSports has to GROW. Not remain at this level, or shrink. In order to grow, there needs to be a basic infastructure of income for eSports. Markets don't exist based on nobody paying anything, they die. If you think $20 is too much for supporting gaming, indirectly supporting all the other teams, including HuK, IdrA, MC, LeeNock, EVERYONE, including their respective teams and sponsors, then you don't deserve to call yourself a fan or member of this community, This has been the running case, everyone finds anything to complain about to not pay.
TLDR - I don't want eSports to stay at $5000 tournaments, and at the same level, neither should you. If we want eSports to be "BIG" then we have to pay just like any other sport. $20 is not much in the scope of things, considering I'm supporting everything I stand for, and have received so much free content over the years. 100% disagree. you are arbitrarily inflating the value of esports by purchasing a $20 pass NOW, because it SUPPORTS ESPORTS. /snip/
If someone wants to support esports with their money, I actually consider that a reasonable reason to buy a ticket. For example, I buy my GSL season ticket every season because I explicitly want my money to go make GSL prize pools bigger and allow people to play this game professionally. This is part of what i'm buying-- a sense of well-being at helping esports. I think this is a perfectly okay reason to buy it. If you want to make prize pools bigger, and that's worth $20 to you, spend your money-- and if you want the VoDs earlier and that's worth $20 to you, spend your money. If not, don't-- it's your personal call.
It's not a moral issue.
On February 17 2012 03:36 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:21 crms wrote:On February 17 2012 03:10 Slardar wrote:
$20 is nothing to supporting eSports, something we all love and watch and receive a TON of free content for. You get ripped off over $20 for popcorn and a drink at movies if you want to make that comparison, something that will give me 1-2 hours of "entertainment" at best.
The underlying premise here is that eSports has to GROW. Not remain at this level, or shrink. In order to grow, there needs to be a basic infastructure of income for eSports. Markets don't exist based on nobody paying anything, they die. If you think $20 is too much for supporting gaming, indirectly supporting all the other teams, including HuK, IdrA, MC, LeeNock, EVERYONE, including their respective teams and sponsors, then you don't deserve to call yourself a fan or member of this community, This has been the running case, everyone finds anything to complain about to not pay.
TLDR - I don't want eSports to stay at $5000 tournaments, and at the same level, neither should you. If we want eSports to be "BIG" then we have to pay just like any other sport. $20 is not much in the scope of things, considering I'm supporting everything I stand for, and have received so much free content over the years. 100% disagree. you are arbitrarily inflating the value of esports by purchasing a $20 pass NOW, because it SUPPORTS ESPORTS. everything you said could be applied to any point in time in esports history. what if the mlg went PPV for last years events? Are you still a phony, who doesn't support esports if you don't pay $20 to access MLG Anaheim? Why now are you considered a farce if you think this arena, or esports in general isn't big enough to sustain $20 ppvs? Why is it this instance that we must support esports with PPV, or be undeserving of calling ourselves fans? Since your argument can't really address any of those concerns it's just a hollow white knight post which is everything esports DOESN'T need. As scoots and sundance himself said, if you feel this is too early, too expensive or not the right time don't buy it. Esports isn't a charity and the MLG isn't the red cross. If we artificially inflate the PPV buys for MLG Arena we are doing more harm then good because MLG will have tainted data. People will not support MLG on charity or sympathy of BUY THIS OR YOURE NOT A REAL ESPORTS FAN for the long haul, that is 100% unsustainable. How can you 100% Disagree? If MLG PPV was PPV for the last few years and failed, SC2 probably wouldn't be a MLG Title or with $5000/minimal prizes. You make the "Charity case" argument, yet you fail to realize the people dumping the majority of THEIR money (Sundance being one) realize eSports isn't a charity case, something has to happen. You can bandwagon all you want with the hatred, the bottom line is many people are just finding excuses to not pay.
Again I'd like to stress, if you want to pay to support esports and that's your explicit reason, that's totally okay. Sundance just wants to see if there's market for this. If there is, that's great! and if not, well, that's just how it is.
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if i was to pay for anything it would be the HQ stream really the same as GOM they have the right idea for money making behind GSL
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On February 17 2012 02:59 Panthae wrote:I dislike the comparison to the movies. Everyone keeps saying 20$ is nothing, it's the same as going to the movies, but that's such a bad argument. Obviously 20$ isn't a TON of money, but I enjoyed watching MLG all day and going to the movies at night, now I'm being limited to one or the other, or pay 40$. That is the issue here, I think. It's that you get everyone involved in e-Sports by monetizing viewers with Ads and now you are forcing them to pay to watch the greatness you helped build... I think it's disrespectful to the community that MADE MLG. It's like saying: ''Alright guys, we had a rough few years but with everyone's support we are HUGE now! Go eSports!! But now that we're big, it's time to pay for what you guys help make.'' I honestly think if MLG was more open as to WHY we are paying the 20$ it'd be easier to accept. If MLG was to say, listen we want to support players better and get korean players here, we can only do that if we receive more money from you guys, here's a subscription service that will give you a stream of the player area, exclusive interviews, high quality on all the streams and a free t-shirt. FUCK I WOULD PAY 30$ FOR THAT! As it is right now though, it sounds like: ''Pay 20$ for what's been free up until now, with nothing new to add. I'm a big fan of MLG, I've been to every barcraft montreal so far, but I feel disrespected when I can't watch an awesome tournament that would never have happened were it not for the thousands of ads I saw for it unless I pay 20$. I'll be supporting the free euro scene I help build instead this weekend, but I'll be sad the whole time that I can't be watching what I really want.
I really disagree with a lot of things you say. I'm in college and I agree that $20 is nothing, which is probably why I will buy a pass. But you said that they are disrespecting the community that MADE MLG. This community did not make MLG. This community is what made it a lot bigger, but it did not make it at all. I've been watching MLG since the Halo 2 days and going to events. Those people made MLG, this community added more people. MLG has been open as to why you are paying $20 and you aren't paying for something that was free. Arena has never existed and therefore was never free. The Championships, which is is what most people seem to be getting confused, are still free. That is exactly like last year. All they did was add new content that is now PPV. If you don't want to pay, then don't. Everything will be exactly the same for you then, you still have your MLG Championship events like last year.
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On February 17 2012 03:41 guluru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:59 Panthae wrote:I dislike the comparison to the movies. Everyone keeps saying 20$ is nothing, it's the same as going to the movies, but that's such a bad argument. Obviously 20$ isn't a TON of money, but I enjoyed watching MLG all day and going to the movies at night, now I'm being limited to one or the other, or pay 40$. That is the issue here, I think. It's that you get everyone involved in e-Sports by monetizing viewers with Ads and now you are forcing them to pay to watch the greatness you helped build... I think it's disrespectful to the community that MADE MLG. It's like saying: ''Alright guys, we had a rough few years but with everyone's support we are HUGE now! Go eSports!! But now that we're big, it's time to pay for what you guys help make.'' I honestly think if MLG was more open as to WHY we are paying the 20$ it'd be easier to accept. If MLG was to say, listen we want to support players better and get korean players here, we can only do that if we receive more money from you guys, here's a subscription service that will give you a stream of the player area, exclusive interviews, high quality on all the streams and a free t-shirt. FUCK I WOULD PAY 30$ FOR THAT! As it is right now though, it sounds like: ''Pay 20$ for what's been free up until now, with nothing new to add. I'm a big fan of MLG, I've been to every barcraft montreal so far, but I feel disrespected when I can't watch an awesome tournament that would never have happened were it not for the thousands of ads I saw for it unless I pay 20$. I'll be supporting the free euro scene I help build instead this weekend, but I'll be sad the whole time that I can't be watching what I really want. I really disagree with a lot of things you say. I'm in college and I agree that $20 is nothing, which is probably why I will buy a pass. But you said that they are disrespecting the community that MADE MLG. This community did not make MLG. This community is what made it a lot bigger, but it did not make it at all. I've been watching MLG since the Halo 2 days and going to events. Those people made MLG, this community added more people. MLG has been open as to why you are paying $20 and you aren't paying for something that was free. Arena has never existed and therefore was never free. The Championships, which is is what most people seem to be getting confused, are still free. That is exactly like last year. All they did was add new content that is now PPV. If you don't want to pay, then don't. Everything will be exactly the same for you then, you still have your MLG Championship events like last year.
I think this is good point. MLG championship will be played just like normal. I am glad MLG is giving the PPV thing a shot. It gives them a chance to see if the market can support something like this. If so, we are one step closer to an western GSL. I could go for live MLG matches run weekly.
But they need to know they can support it.
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On February 17 2012 02:11 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 02:04 drgoats wrote:On February 17 2012 01:53 tylervoss4 wrote:
im just curious why is 1st place prize still $5,000 ?
This is the reason why koreans don't want to risk coming to tournament on their own expense.
Increase the prize, make livestreams free, more pros will come, and more people will watch.
If you want this to work, make all games free except for the finals. (finals being $5 to watch) You must have gotten some misinformation: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/WinterAlso don't forget that all travel and accommodations are paid for and that could be a significant amount for each player/team. And lastly, what is your expertise of the tournament scene that makes your model better than his? I am going to trust the guy with 10 years of experience in the field. Hell, he might be wrong on this but his time and effort in the scene has to earn some respect and make him the expert on how to monetize eSports, doesn't it? Not if he's spent the past 10 years driving MLG into the red. Which is kinda a big point of debate in this thread.
Sundance HASN'T been the CEO for 10 years, though. I believe he became CEO in either 09' or 10'.
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EPT
