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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
Okay some points here:
1. MLG will loose at least 40% off their viewers, meaning 40% less exposure for their sponsors
2. MLG will loose 40% off their ad revenue from their viewers
3. People don't get a choice here, thus they won't pay ( nature of human to rebel if not given a choice )
4. People don't want to pay for stuff they don't use. All the extra's that they provide is fine for a premium account
5. There are other tournaments / season based events going on for less ( or no ) money with higher production value and less disturbance in the viewing ( MLG streams crashed on every event, or are VERY laggy for not acceptable amount of times )
So all in all they will fail in this attempt to make a service from free, into a paid service with too much crap most people don't care about. If they would provide a medium quality stream with VODS right after the matches are played, for lets say $5 then a premium account with ALL those extra's for $20, EVERYONE would be happy.
Monetizing a business is perfectly fine, but their marketing department has their heads up their asses for only looking at this:
Oh last time we had 13K viewers on average, so $20 times 13K is 260K which means we cover all expenses and have enough money left over from sponsorships, so lets do that. Also newcomers in watching SC2 events will NEVER watch MLG because it's $20 to try out if you like it or not.
For people that say that you also have PPV movies etc, it's $5 for a BLOCKBUSTER movie WHENEVER YOU WANT TO SEE IT. also there are subscriptions that have unlimited movies for a certain amount of money, for example i pay €10 a month to have the ability to watch 30 movies including the new ones. So 30x2 hours is 60 hours of content for about $13 and here i pay $20 for 20 hours of games, and i'm a protoss player, so i have NO interest in watching TvT, ZvZ, TvZ, which cuts out AT LEAST 50% off the games.
so good luck MLG, i won't be watching anything or supporting you in any regard untill you come to your senses and at least make a pure medium quality+VOD membership for a small fee.
Assembly, ROG here i come
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On February 15 2012 02:04 SovSov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:56 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:48 SovSov wrote:On February 15 2012 01:33 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:10 Xcobidoo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:06 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 00:56 floor exercise wrote:On February 15 2012 00:52 Prochainezo wrote:
Wow so many people here don't realise they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Finally after a year of hoping that Starcraft would explode as an esport, an opportunity comes along where we can prove that it can be monetised and can be a sustainable bussiness that will have real profits (and not just free stream viewers) to show to bigger sponsors and secure larger investment... and you guys can't justify $1/hour of content.
I feel so blessed to have this opportunity to give people my money! Yup, this fanbase is retarded. No wonder nobody is making any money. I wonder if you could run a million dollar company getting $0 injected from such a large portion of your hardcore fanbase. Infact, I challenge you to think of one sport that doesn't rely on people happily buy entry tickets/merchandise/food and drink on site to support themselves. Until all you people realise this is the real world, and millions of dollars doesn't just grow on trees, then starcraft will never get anywhere. I'll say it again, you guys are so shortsighted it hurts. And how do you think the fanbase for sports that have been around forever were built up. By charging insane prices in their infancy? No way josé, they were built brick by brick until it could sustain itself by selling merchandise etc. Each season making their product better when people were ready to pay more. That's the way empires are built. Favoring money over growth is how a bubble is blown and a card house is stacked. There are two kinds of sports to consider here. 1. The ones that already have a huge fanbase (baseball,basketball,football,soccer) because they are games that everyone is familiar with. 2. The ones that are starting from nothing and have to slowly build themselves. I will analyse both so you understand quite how wrong you are. 1. This is the easiest, you already have the fanbase, so you just need to make people aware of your content. Investors should be easy to find seeing as everyone is familiar with your game. Sponsors are happy to associate themselves with something everyone is familiar with. Bussiness may be slow at first, but with so many potential consumers and so much financial backing you can grow until you are big enough sustain yourself. This I beleive is what you mistakenly think starcraft is capable of. This is also the main reason why we cant compare starcraft to other sports, now onto the second case. 2. You are a small promoter looking to build a sports bussiness from scratch. There is a small hardcore fanbase, that you know you will have to rely on to succeed. Eventually you hope to reach a point where you can gain enough interest to obtain big sponsors and hopefully make people more fimiliar with your sport. This is how wrestling/UFC/boxing all began, and to survive they had to milk their fanbase for all it was worth until they could sustain themselves and prove to investors/sponsors they were legit. Certainly for those 3 sports there were times when it was the T-shirt sales that were keeping the promoters afloat. Now consider which catagory starcraft most likely falls into. As with any start-up sport, the money has to be injected from the fanbase, whether you obtain that money by PPV/t-shirt sales/ticket sales doesn't matter. It needs to come from somewhere though. Now consider where MLG makes money. All of the fans are too cheap to buy merchandise. Tickets do not account for the millions spent on the events because of the high tech equipment required to run them. Sponsors see that most people aren't familiar with starcraft, and are currently not paying enough to keep the bussiness afloat. Investors are the only thing keeping MLG in the black, but as Alex Garfield said, relying only on investors is a sure way for your bussiness to crash and burn. Now MLG is doing the right thing, by offering HQ PPV content alongside its regular free stream season, and you are all acting like its completely unreasonable. Frankly, if I were Sundance, I would have given up on this community a long time ago. I'm sorry, but how are you justifying wrestling, boxing and MMA as "new sports that had to build themselves from scratch?" Do you even know the history behind those? Please check your facts and learn your history before trying to dismiss people's arguments. The reason those types of sports use PPV is because the fights are special events that don't happen every day (like they can with football, basketball, etc). Fighters can't fight every single day. It is simply a difference in the way the sport is handled. Then, when the fights do happen they don't last terribly long. This is what sets up an easy PPV model for those sports to use, because they can't benefit from continued ad revenue from daily or weekly TV time that other sports enjoy. Now after considering the reason behind fighting sports being PPV, tell me which you think StarCraft is more comparable to? Fighting sports or traditional sports? I'm so sick of this UFC argument and comparing it to StarCraft. It is complete bogus and just a buzz-argument that sheep copy and paste from some higher-up who used the terrible example. No no no. You completely missed the point. Ignore PPV for a second, its just a coincidence that it is how they are all run at the moment. My point is they all went from unheard of sports to now mainstream moneymakers by exploiting their hardcore audience to the fullest potential. My point is simply that the money has to be injected from somewhere. Boxing/Wresling/UFC survived off of shirts/tickets and being able to pay their talent a very small amount because it was a start-up sport. Now MLG cant do any of those things, so the only option left is to charge for the stream. Ignore the fact they all currently use PPV, thats just an unhappy coincidence of how they all came to do bussiness. Again, boxing and wrestling were not "unknown sports that relied on their hardcore base".
I am confused as to how you think these sports begin in the first place...
They all have to start from somewhere, and in this case they began with regional promoters charging for events, which an initally small but hardcore fanbase supported. Sure they are well known sports now, but everything has to start somewhere. I feel we are getting very sidetracked from the intended discussion with this anyway, clearly you are missing my point.
You also wrote:
"You must also consider that:
MLG events cost money to attend live
Gold Service is offered for HQ streams
Ad revenue"
...It's not making them any money. How many times does that need to be said? I mean dont take my word for it, ask anyone actually involved with the industry. Those 3 things are not sustaining MLG at the moment and that is why they are looking at other options. Do you really think they would be risking this PR shitstorm if they didnt need to find a way to get more money? Heck, why would they even bother trying PPV if they were already profitable?
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Poland3748 Posts
On February 15 2012 02:11 SovSov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:03 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:53 SovSov wrote:On February 15 2012 01:50 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:46 Agathon wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:05 Xcobidoo wrote:On February 15 2012 00:52 Prochainezo wrote:
Wow so many people here don't realise they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Finally after a year of hoping that Starcraft would explode as an esport, an opportunity comes along where we can prove that it can be monetised and can be a sustainable bussiness that will have real profits (and not just free stream viewers) to show to bigger sponsors and secure larger investment... and you guys can't justify $1/hour of content.
What a real shame that is. MLG knew this would be an unpopular decision. But somebody has to man up and start monetising esports, and frankly if MLG can't do it, then who the hell can?
Please, just think of all the great content MLG has given us last year alone. This is the hour when your support will count the most. If this event succeeds, then esports will grow, it is as simple as that. Just this once we need to prove we are willing to part with our cash to support our hobby, just like fans of every other sport are willing to do on a far more routine and more expensive basis.
If you can afford the $20, and you don't spend it, then as melodramatic as it may sound, you are killing esports. MLG really stuck their heads out on this one, there is no way all this bad PR is worth the measly amount they will earn from this event, and the loss in ad revenue may even hurt them. But they understand better than you do what needs to happen for esports to grow.
Reading these threads really makes me wonder if an esport will ever manage to acheive mainstream popularity with such a shortsighted and cheap fanbase. Really, its making me pretty depressed.
Do the right thing guys, or dont complain when in next years time absolutely nothing has changed.
People will look back on this in years to come, and wonder why the hell such an avid and hardcore fanbase came up with so many excuses not to support their passion. Don't be one of those people. First of all sponsors don't care how much money MLG makes, only how many people are watching and how many times you see their product during the event. Less people watching = less (need for) sponsors. Just wow, that isn't how bussiness works at all. It is a shame that I have to explain this to you all, but I feel it is my duty seeing as how uninformed you all are. You can't go to a sponsor and say we have 20,000 free stream viewers. The first question they will ask is how much money you have made. If you say $0, then they dont care. The whole reason we need to monetise it is because it is only the money that informs bussiness decision. If you cant get people to pay for $1/hour high quality content that cost you thousands of dollars to set up, then why the hell would a sponsor think anyone would be willing to spend money on their products?This is a point that has been made so many times by numerous people within the industry. It is not just my opinion. It is how it works. I wonder if you realise the harm uninformed opinions like yours do on these kind of sites. Even if you aren't buying, you should be encouraging others to do so if they can afford it. Otherwise you are helping no-one, and perhaps even doing harm. Grow up. Tell me one single competition/sport/entertaining that grown from 90k viewer to mainstream with a PPV. Just one. GL with that. All actual mainstream entertainments grown because it's popular. Not because the public paid to watch it. I've not big knowlegde with business (or english as you can read), but i'm pretty well informed about entertaining, and there is not a single exemple that this economical model ever evolved in mainstream. ECW, went from free on cable and making no money to moderate success through the use of PPV. Unfortunately PPV is still a relatively new model that people are working out. But I have provided what you asked for, PPV can work and has worked as long as the fanbase are willing to support it. Oh boy, ECW. Didn't they go bankrupt? ECW is actually a perfect example of PPV not working in a niche-market. Maybe SC2 should be compared to ECW instead of UFC. Yup, they went bankrupt eventually after having all their talent stolen. I'm gonna go ahead and say that 'stealing talent' is unlikely to occur in starcraft. So my example still holds. Please, try harder. You can't argue that they had success through PPV if they organization went under shortly after, regardless of reason. So maybe my argument is not valid because it can't cite PPV not working, but your argument can't cite PPV working.
ECW is wrong example, anyway, as Wrestling is probably only popular in NA (seriously people, where's the fun in it). PPV is also most popular there so the acceptance of PPV in NA can be significant boost.
On the other hand SC2 is global sport so IF MLG tries to address global audience, PPV is even worse.
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Well, I may actually shell out for a GSL ticket then because there's no way I am paying $20 for 3 days of content.
On February 14 2012 07:57 CuteZergling wrote:
They make a good point though, $20 is twice the cost of a movie, and you are getting 20 hours of entertainment, not 2.
Um, no it's not. I know places where a movie ticket is still $5. Also, $20 is what I spend on half way decent computer games that are 1 year or more old. I get 100+ hours of entertainment out of them (usually).
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Great move for GSL 
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Assembly is Free, HD quality and EU friendly.
Thats where I'll be <3
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Poland3748 Posts
On February 15 2012 02:17 frozenrb wrote:Great move for GSL
And Dreamhack. But still the regular season is not PPV, right? So not so huge difference.
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On February 15 2012 02:13 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:09 frozenrb wrote:
20$ is to much in my country:D it's like 1/20 of my earnings, sory but you wont get many people from poland:D 1/20? 20$ = 64PLN minimal fee in Poland in 2012 = 1116.86 PLN. I thought that's impossible but it is.
nah i made small mistake i made more than this, but it's still a lot of money in our country.
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On February 15 2012 02:15 TechSc2 wrote:
Okay some points here:
1. MLG will loose at least 40% off their viewers, meaning 40% less exposure for their sponsors
2. MLG will loose 40% off their ad revenue from their viewers
3. People don't get a choice here, thus they won't pay ( nature of human to rebel if not given a choice )
4. People don't want to pay for stuff they don't use. All the extra's that they provide is fine for a premium account
5. There are other tournaments / season based events going on for less ( or no ) money with higher production value and less disturbance in the viewing ( MLG streams crashed on every event, or are VERY laggy for not acceptable amount of times )
So all in all they will fail in this attempt to make a service from free, into a paid service with too much crap most people don't care about. If they would provide a medium quality stream with VODS right after the matches are played, for lets say $5 then a premium account with ALL those extra's for $20, EVERYONE would be happy.
Monetizing a business is perfectly fine, but their marketing department has their heads up their asses for only looking at this:
Oh last time we had 13K viewers on average, so $20 times 13K is 26K which means we cover our prize pool, so lets do that. Also newcomers in watching SC2 events will NEVER watch MLG because it's $20 to try out if you like it or not.
For people that say that you also have PPV movies etc, it's $5 for a BLOCKBUSTER movie WHENEVER YOU WANT TO SEE IT. also there are subscriptions that have unlimited movies for a certain amount of money, for example i pay €10 a month to have the ability to watch 30 movies including the new ones. So 30x2 hours is 60 hours of content for about $13 and here i pay $20 for 20 hours of games, and i'm a protoss player, so i have NO interest in watching TvT, ZvZ, TvZ, which cuts out AT LEAST 50% off the games.
so good luck MLG, i won't be watching anything or supporting you in any regard untill you come to your senses and at least make a pure medium quality+VOD membership for a small fee.
Assembly, ROG here i come
euhm, 20 times 13k is 260k, not that they'll ever make that but just wanted to correct you there 
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On February 15 2012 02:13 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:09 frozenrb wrote:
20$ is to much in my country:D it's like 1/20 of my earnings, sory but you wont get many people from poland:D 1/20? 20$ = 64PLN minimal fee in Poland in 2012 = 1116.86 PLN. I thought that's impossible but it is.
400$ is 64 PLN?
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@ shameless
LOL absolutely right! woops will correct that in my post haha
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On February 15 2012 02:19 Frostmister wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:13 nimdil wrote:On February 15 2012 02:09 frozenrb wrote:
20$ is to much in my country:D it's like 1/20 of my earnings, sory but you wont get many people from poland:D 1/20? 20$ = 64PLN minimal fee in Poland in 2012 = 1116.86 PLN. I thought that's impossible but it is. 400$ is 64 PLN?
What part of 20$ = 64 PLN don't you understand?
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for one dollar we must pay 3,17 PLN so 20 dolars is about 64 PLN
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On February 15 2012 02:17 Vojjin wrote:
Assembly is Free, HD quality and EU friendly.
Thats where I'll be <3
And a way worse player pool and worse casters, MLG is where I'll be <3 Been supporting for 6 years now, will continue to do so. MLG fighting!!!
Also lol at people complaing about times, I watched MLGs that started at 3 a.m. for eu...
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On February 15 2012 02:22 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:17 Vojjin wrote:
Assembly is Free, HD quality and EU friendly.
Thats where I'll be <3 And a way worse player pool and worse casters, MLG is where I'll be <3 Been supporting for 6 years now, will continue to do so. MLG fighting!!!
And way better EU time, as he said
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so you get all 4 pro circuits for 30$ (Gold Membership). That makes 7.5$ per event. And now they want 20$ for the Pre-Tournament? Imagine the NBA charging one of the semifinals by thrice the amount than the actual final. Would you buy it?
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On February 15 2012 01:41 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:23 Ansinjunger wrote:On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote:On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. Let me get this straight. MLG changed their Pro Circuit into something I didn't pay for with my gold membership. I can argue: I thought there were 6 live events, in 2012 there are only 4. That may sound like splitting hairs. What if they made all of their events "arenas" and had only one live championship, like last year's Providence? There's nothing stopping them from doing that, and charging $$ for esports. Whoops, I guess I only paid for one event. Too bad my membership is canceled by the end of the year anyway. I don't know why you don't see a problem with "re-classifying" something so you can charge people who thought they'd already paid. I'm sad if MLG is not breaking even financially, I'd rather they are successful. However, I'm not going to pay them $20 for something I thought I already did and is overpriced anyway. I don't have that kind of money right now, and if I did, Gom would get it first. I also canceled my pitchfork pre-order. Edit: changed "tournament" to "pro circuit" Why are you operating under the assumption that they're not profitable? Why not operate under the assumption that they noticed MLG gets away with PPV and they think that with an inferior product they can appeal to our heart strings and grab some extra cash as well. I really wish people would open their eyes a bit. How does an company exist if they have been in the red for years according to them? How do they generate 50 million in 2009 and not find a way to make a profit?
Baseless biased speculation on your part. Plenty of startups operate in the red while building their business. Eventually, they have to find a way to make a profit or fail and I think MLG might be hitting that critical point.
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On February 15 2012 02:16 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:11 SovSov wrote:On February 15 2012 02:03 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:53 SovSov wrote:On February 15 2012 01:50 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:46 Agathon wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 Prochainezo wrote:On February 15 2012 01:05 Xcobidoo wrote:On February 15 2012 00:52 Prochainezo wrote:
Wow so many people here don't realise they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Finally after a year of hoping that Starcraft would explode as an esport, an opportunity comes along where we can prove that it can be monetised and can be a sustainable bussiness that will have real profits (and not just free stream viewers) to show to bigger sponsors and secure larger investment... and you guys can't justify $1/hour of content.
What a real shame that is. MLG knew this would be an unpopular decision. But somebody has to man up and start monetising esports, and frankly if MLG can't do it, then who the hell can?
Please, just think of all the great content MLG has given us last year alone. This is the hour when your support will count the most. If this event succeeds, then esports will grow, it is as simple as that. Just this once we need to prove we are willing to part with our cash to support our hobby, just like fans of every other sport are willing to do on a far more routine and more expensive basis.
If you can afford the $20, and you don't spend it, then as melodramatic as it may sound, you are killing esports. MLG really stuck their heads out on this one, there is no way all this bad PR is worth the measly amount they will earn from this event, and the loss in ad revenue may even hurt them. But they understand better than you do what needs to happen for esports to grow.
Reading these threads really makes me wonder if an esport will ever manage to acheive mainstream popularity with such a shortsighted and cheap fanbase. Really, its making me pretty depressed.
Do the right thing guys, or dont complain when in next years time absolutely nothing has changed.
People will look back on this in years to come, and wonder why the hell such an avid and hardcore fanbase came up with so many excuses not to support their passion. Don't be one of those people. First of all sponsors don't care how much money MLG makes, only how many people are watching and how many times you see their product during the event. Less people watching = less (need for) sponsors. Just wow, that isn't how bussiness works at all. It is a shame that I have to explain this to you all, but I feel it is my duty seeing as how uninformed you all are. You can't go to a sponsor and say we have 20,000 free stream viewers. The first question they will ask is how much money you have made. If you say $0, then they dont care. The whole reason we need to monetise it is because it is only the money that informs bussiness decision. If you cant get people to pay for $1/hour high quality content that cost you thousands of dollars to set up, then why the hell would a sponsor think anyone would be willing to spend money on their products?This is a point that has been made so many times by numerous people within the industry. It is not just my opinion. It is how it works. I wonder if you realise the harm uninformed opinions like yours do on these kind of sites. Even if you aren't buying, you should be encouraging others to do so if they can afford it. Otherwise you are helping no-one, and perhaps even doing harm. Grow up. Tell me one single competition/sport/entertaining that grown from 90k viewer to mainstream with a PPV. Just one. GL with that. All actual mainstream entertainments grown because it's popular. Not because the public paid to watch it. I've not big knowlegde with business (or english as you can read), but i'm pretty well informed about entertaining, and there is not a single exemple that this economical model ever evolved in mainstream. ECW, went from free on cable and making no money to moderate success through the use of PPV. Unfortunately PPV is still a relatively new model that people are working out. But I have provided what you asked for, PPV can work and has worked as long as the fanbase are willing to support it. Oh boy, ECW. Didn't they go bankrupt? ECW is actually a perfect example of PPV not working in a niche-market. Maybe SC2 should be compared to ECW instead of UFC. Yup, they went bankrupt eventually after having all their talent stolen. I'm gonna go ahead and say that 'stealing talent' is unlikely to occur in starcraft. So my example still holds. Please, try harder. You can't argue that they had success through PPV if they organization went under shortly after, regardless of reason. So maybe my argument is not valid because it can't cite PPV not working, but your argument can't cite PPV working. ECW is wrong example, anyway, as Wrestling is probably only popular in NA (seriously people, where's the fun in it). PPV is also most popular there so the acceptance of PPV in NA can be significant boost. On the other hand SC2 is global sport so IF MLG tries to address global audience, PPV is even worse.
Wrestling is globally popular, hence why WWE can sell out arenas with only announcing they are visiting a country.
PPV works in the UK, ...ish. People still hate it, but people will pay up for a major boxing fight. But nothing close to how the USA utilises PPV.
MLG is not on at a good time for Europeans, I can't see them getting much PPV money from outside NA, not at least until they've proved their new service is worth it.
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I pay 30$ to see one month best football games (every championship). i won t pay 20$ to see 2 days starcraft!!!
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On February 15 2012 02:07 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 08:32 Liquid`NonY wrote:On February 14 2012 08:30 JJH777 wrote:
What the hell? 20$? I paid 15 for this season of GSL and am getting like 10x the content (if not more) plus higher quality production + higher quality play + higher quality casters. their horrible outfits make them the worst casters in the world. harsh but true While I agree that suits are terribly stupid, I don't think that justifies that statment unless your sole purpose of watching a tournament is glaring at commentators.
Ignore Nony. He still (?) have a active sponsorship contract with one of MLG main sponsors. So he can only say good things about them. The same as JP or Slasher having hard time saying anything "negative" about MLG on their shows. Well JP at least since Slasher's show got iced and found no home.
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EPT
