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On March 15 2012 02:30 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
My main problem with the ladder at this point is just the fact that it demands a lot of attention. Starcraft 2 ladder games require 100% of my attention, and its tiring. It is enjoyable, don't get me wrong, but it is also something that requires a level of effort that after a 12 hour day doing my normal stuff I am not always ready to put in. So, evne if I have an hour to spend on gaming, I don't always feel compelled to put that into SC2 ladder. It is generally all I can do to use up my bonus pool during a ladder season.
I feel the same... =/ I feel like it's not worth playing if all that's going to happen is get raped by colossi and steamrolled by infestors+broodlord+corruptor. I really don't like defeatist attitudes, but at this point, I don't even care anymore about laddering 1v1. I don't want to feel like shit playing something that should be relaxing fun after a long day's hard work.
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On March 23 2012 08:35 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 08:28 kvmetternich wrote:
do you really think 600000 ranked players in season 5 1v1 are "nobody" ? (after 18 month circa from release)
Sometimes i get bored and sometimes i come back ... and this happens to thousands of players and this is nothing strange and nothing to worry about. IMHO. It feels like "nobody" because we are all divided into 5 different servers, time zones and auto-MM with hidden MMR without cross region play. Oh and lobby chat channels, clan support etc etc.
i can understand your point and i agree in part 
Anyways , even if we have hypothetically 100000 players for each server is not bad for a game like sc2 .
I know the starting base was in the order of 2,5 mil (500000 for each server in our example) , but this decline of the number of players was predictable from the launch of the game for the reasons well explained by other guys who posted in this thread ( hard to improve,stress,ladder anxiety,boredom etc. etc.)
What is important is to find players to play against i think 
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I do think losing alot of players is a natural thing for any game during it's first 1-2 years. The difference is that other games might almost be a ghost town by this time whereas SC2 is a really active game with an awesome esports scene and community.
On February 13 2012 23:00 Fossa wrote:
Potential Solutions:
1. change this back to sc1 or wc3 chat interface
2. have option to hide rank, or get something from playing ladder games (such as getting points to purchase items like in LoL) - encourages casual players to give laddering a try
3. have automated tournaments for different leagues, and vary the tournament's game type
4. have a custom game lobby or an additional match making system (ex. choose league, race, and map)
5. this goes along with improving the chat interface, finding custom games, being able to do automated tournaments, finding clans, etc.
6. have a multiple replay analysis (something is better than nothing), it's more convenient to have one that you can use while playing starcraft, than having to use something like sc2gears
7. not sure how to fix that one
I just like to add that I thought the War3 chat interface was horrible?? You had to go exclusively into "chatrooms" to chat, and you were unable to play while being there! And so many of the channels where completely empty. I'm not saying SC2 chat system is perfect, but War3 was definitely alot worse as I remember it.
But I do like alot of your suggestions, I'd just like to point out that having a better costum game system is not going to increase the number of players playing 1v1 but it might, however, increase the total number of players being online, but they won't be playing 1v1.
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Maybe, They are researching in Heart of The swarm ??.....
so you can't even see them online.
till heart of swarm has been researched.... ?
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On March 23 2012 09:38 Cereb wrote:I do think losing alot of players is a natural thing for any game during it's first 1-2 years. The difference is that other games might almost be a ghost town by this time whereas SC2 is a really active game with an awesome esports scene and community. Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 23:00 Fossa wrote:
Potential Solutions:
1. change this back to sc1 or wc3 chat interface
2. have option to hide rank, or get something from playing ladder games (such as getting points to purchase items like in LoL) - encourages casual players to give laddering a try
3. have automated tournaments for different leagues, and vary the tournament's game type
4. have a custom game lobby or an additional match making system (ex. choose league, race, and map)
5. this goes along with improving the chat interface, finding custom games, being able to do automated tournaments, finding clans, etc.
6. have a multiple replay analysis (something is better than nothing), it's more convenient to have one that you can use while playing starcraft, than having to use something like sc2gears
7. not sure how to fix that one
I just like to add that I thought the War3 chat interface was horrible?? You had to go exclusively into "chatrooms" to chat, and you were unable to play while being there! And so many of the channels where completely empty. I'm not saying SC2 chat system is perfect, but War3 was definitely alot worse as I remember it. But I do like alot of your suggestions, I'd just like to point out that having a better costum game system is not going to increase the number of players playing 1v1 but it might, however, increase the total number of players being online, but they won't be playing 1v1.
I think you are the 0.0000000001% who prefers sc2 chat over wc3
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On March 23 2012 09:38 Cereb wrote:
I do think losing alot of players is a natural thing for any game during it's first 1-2 years. The difference is that other games might almost be a ghost town by this time whereas SC2 is a really active game with an awesome esports scene and community.
I guess I'm kind of jealous of League of Legends, a game that came out months before sc2 and is steadily growing in numbers, and is now surpassing SC2 in popularity in many countries. I know most of my friends have moved away from sc2 to play LoL.
And I know its unfair to compare an easy to play dota clone with an rts game. But keep in mind that Blizzard intentionally tried to make SC2 cater to all types of gamers, from grandmothers to competitive gamers. LoL tried to do the same thing ( but didn't emphasize esports that much). LoL seems to have hit the right buttons, because now it's actually a serious esport in the very esport mecca of the world, South Korea.
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SC2 is too hardcore for LoL fans, and too softcore for Broodwar fans
SC2 will die and BW+LoL will be a win-win situation for Korea.
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I don't 1v1 much anymore, its not because ladder is too "stressful" per-say.. But more-so it puts me in a really bad mood losing a few games on ladder, and tends to make me feel really pissed off. So I try to stay away from it.
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I still play. Not as much as I used to due to the fact of the kind of people you meet on the ladder. Playing against cheese all the time is just frustrating and a waste of time. The game also does feel socially "empty." Not enough chatter in my opinion.
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I'm not sure why I don't 1v1 as much anymore. I do find myself 2v2ing a lot though. I did that in Quake and Warcraft 3 a lot as well. I'd start out 1v1ing and then just move into team games. I really like 2v2 games, doesn't really matter what type of game it is, I just really enjoy it.
A couple of my friends went on to play LoL which I cannot stand, it honestly looks and feels like a flash game for teenage anime kids, and the attitude of the players in that game just confirm my generalization anytime I try to play it.
It seems that a game like Starcraft be it Brood War or 2 will quickly put someone in their place. Egos are smashed into the ground in a game like this. It's just the nature of 1v1 games. People want to act and think like they are competitive gamers until they are shown that they are really just another average nobody. They usually get anxiety, blame the game or the ladder system and convince themselves it's not their problem and move onto something else. The lack of Bnet2 features definitely doesn't help with keeping people engaged either.
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On March 23 2012 10:51 clik wrote:
I'm not sure why I don't 1v1 as much anymore. I do find myself 2v2ing a lot though. I did that in Quake and Warcraft 3 a lot as well. I'd start out 1v1ing and then just move into team games. I really like 2v2 games, doesn't really matter what type of game it is, I just really enjoy it.
A couple of my friends went on to play LoL which I cannot stand, it honestly looks and feels like a flash game for teenage anime kids, and the attitude of the players in that game just confirm my generalization anytime I try to play it.
It seems that a game like Starcraft be it Brood War or 2 will quickly put someone in their place. Egos are smashed into the ground in a game like this. It's just the nature of 1v1 games. People want to act and think like they are competitive gamers until they are shown that they are really just another average nobody. They usually get anxiety, blame the game or the ladder system and convince themselves it's not their problem and move onto something else. The lack of Bnet2 features definitely doesn't help with keeping people engaged either.
I agree with you 100%. In my opinion, LoL is relaxed and childish.
That being said, I believe SC/SC2 have done something I didn't know possible-They provided a mission:impossible relationship with the player.
They shove everyone's face into the dirt with the weight of a siverback gorilla. What everyone is fighting for and craving is to not only breathe, but maybe stand under this pressure.
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I think maybe one way to encourage more play would be to get rid of the current division systems and the leagues and make it a flat point system, but make it so there are more "levels". You give hardcore players what they want in a universal ranking and you give lower level players more incentive to play because each subsequent level is much closer and much less mysterious then the current system.
Its alot easier to motivate youself to play when you see yourself at 1000 points (which we can arbitrarily call gold) and know you only need 50 more points to get into platinum (if that starts at 1050) as opposed to the current system where you just play in your 100 man division with pretty much no idea of the rest of the players besides the ones you play or if you go to sc2ranks or something like that, plus going up or down a league isn't nearly as random as it seems now. Instead you can set very clear goals and very easily see your progress to those goals.
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I'll play again when HotS comes out, but right now, laddering takes up too much time and is too stressful. I'm not motivated enough.
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Ive been playing more ladder recently, zerg EU mid diamond, and i get all-in'd every game (Yes every game). I rarely have a game last more than 9 minutes. Think i might stop for a while... like when HotS comes out .
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On March 23 2012 10:15 ppshchik wrote:
SC2 is too hardcore for LoL fans, and too softcore for Broodwar fans
SC2 will die and BW+LoL will be a win-win situation for Korea.
lol sc2 will die...hahahahah. sc2 will never die and korea is already growing more and more for sc2.
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On March 23 2012 10:15 ppshchik wrote:
SC2 is too hardcore for LoL fans, and too softcore for Broodwar fans
SC2 will die and BW+LoL will be a win-win situation for Korea.
I'd like to see all three games be successful but SC2 isn't as popular as BW in Korea (Yet, I know the game is young and that could change. We'll have to see.) and Brood War is very sadly slowly dying.
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I don't always ladder, but when I do I get allined.
Seriously though, especially with this semester wrapping up I haven't had as much time this season to ladder (Two accounts at 800ish points Masters NA). And when I do ladder for whatever reason 75% of my games are PvZ. It's not fun to do 2 base allins/heavy pressures every single game.
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On April 10 2012 07:26 phrenzy wrote:Ive been playing more ladder recently, zerg EU mid diamond, and i get all-in'd every game (Yes every game). I rarely have a game last more than 9 minutes. Think i might stop for a while... like when HotS comes out .
That's interesting, I can't remember much all-ins lately in mid/high EU diamond. Most Terrans I meet usually open 1-2-rax expo or reactor helion expo. Most Protoss go FFE or Nexus first, with the occasional x-gate-something expand.
Edit: ZvZ I usually play on the offense, so my games often end quick I guess.
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I've gamed with the same group of players for the last 15 years. Everyone played SC2 single player but I was the only one to play more than a couple games multiplayer. Here's my take on what went wrong and how to fix it:
1) EXPECTATIONS
The game first came out and quite a few people tried it out. Many people had watched Day9, TLO and other great players who had been around for a while. They saw the streams. They saw the tournaments. Everyone seemed to be winning. I remember the inControl coaching sessions with diamond players telling them to keep going and practicing and they can reach the top.
For the first year, there were a lot of players who thought they could make it to the "big leagues". The truth is, you can't make it to the big leagues. Period. Take a look at the top 20 IPL4. Idra is 17th. He's friggin insanely good and getting much better every week and has every resource available. I think you're seeing the effect of a lot of hardcore players giving up "working" at being better. They're moving on to other hobbies and playing for fun.
Solution: There is none.
2) ATTITUDE
From the get go, if you weren't a hardcore player who had played SC1/WC3 religiously you were outcast. You opinions had no weight. New players were mocked and sent packing. Either shape up and play 40 hours a week for the next year or just shut up. This is why half the gamers I play with didn't even bother to load up a multiplayer game.
Solution: There is none. The community is what it is.
3) GAME DESIGN
The ladder isn't really enough these days to keep players playing for an extended period of time. It's 100% meaningless with the exception of giving an arbitrary improvement value over a long period of time.
Pretty much every game I know in the last couple years has all kinds of unlocks and other cool things. Give people levels. First maps are super easy 1 main each with no expansions. Games are fast and easy and gives newbs a chance to figure the game out. Add progression. Bait the player with a nice carrot to keep playing. Sure, only the "end game" really counts with all the unlocks and a standard pro map rotation, but have it so it takes a while for players to get there.
Solution: Seriously, is this the same company that makes World of Warcraft? CARROT meet STICK. But honestly, it's a lot of effort on their part with very little reward. So, there is no solution here.
4) GROWING GAP BETWEEN PROS vs NEWBS
Hero worshipping is pretty evident, and is a good thing in many situations. However 100% of the new ideas and real "pushes" the community makes is making the tourneys bigger and better.
However, there seems to be very little effort made by teams / players / organizations to grow the sport by getting new players involved and making the game better for new players.
Solution: There is none. The community is what it is.
5) EMPATHY
Other than Day9, I can think of no organization, team or player that really seems to care about anything other than maybe the top 50 players on each server (maybe top 200 in Korea). Does anyone really care if people play the ladder anymore or if the game becomes less popular to actually play? Seriously, as long as the big names stay with the game and keep playing, and you can log into the server and play a game whenever you want, NO ONE CARES.
SOlution: There is none. Very few people are interested in long term viability of computer games - as that's a place that is impossible to predict.
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A large percentage of players are casuals who treat SC2 like a Call of Duty or something like that. They play for a while then move on to another game. When HoTS hits, we'll see another influx of players followed by a decline.
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EPT
